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Angry Bob
2010-03-15, 08:09 PM
Questions:

How many Prestige Classes suck only(and I mean only)because they dock you too many caster/manifester levels?

Which ones in particular would be decent otherwise?
Which would be outright broken, and wizards just went too far in how many levels they skip?

Of those, what kind of CL/ML advancement would be fair instead?

Some of the class features on them are pretty cool, but I'll otherwise never play them because of the caster level penalty, so I'm trying to get the playground's opinion before just rewriting them myself.

Private-Prinny
2010-03-15, 08:15 PM
Well, the base arcane caster classes don't get you much by themselves, so pretty much every PrC for them sucks because of docked levels alone.

Master Transmogrifist from Complete Arcane looks like it would be especially devastating if you got all those polymorph buffs and still got shapechange on schedule.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 08:22 PM
Definitely Metamind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm)
Thankfully fixed in Hyperconscious.

Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) always makes me cry.

Raiki
2010-03-15, 08:26 PM
Where "On Schedule" translates into "Pre-Epic". :smallannoyed:

I love Master Transmografist. It is one of the coolest PrCs around. Unfortunately, I know alot of people who wouldn't even DARE play one. "A Wizard PrC that loses 4 Caster Levels? FOUR?!?!! Are you CRAZY?!?!" being the general response.

I would toss in Green Star Adept. Yes, it's a bit strange, but if it were a 8-9/10th caster I think it would see a lot more use.

That's all I got for now, since I'm AFB, but there are A LOT of PrCs that take away too many CLs, don't expect the list to be short.


Edit: @ Optimystik: Yeah, we homebrewed a new Metamind for a friend of mine, where it was 8/10 progression, and each level they get twice the number of PP that a psion of that level would have gained. We also made a few other, minor, changes, mostly to make sure that Metamind didn't just straight outclass a straight Psion, but that was the gist of it.

~R~

DragoonWraith
2010-03-15, 08:27 PM
Almost every single one that loses any spellcasting levels at all. Astonishingly few things in 3.5 are worth losing even one.

Alternative 'costs' are recommended. Feats are always a good choice; you get few enough of those, and if you can find something fitting but otherwise not so hot, it works well. The Archmage's cost of losing spell slots is pretty solid too. Banning schools can kind of work, but would work much better if the schools were balanced.

Private-Prinny
2010-03-15, 08:39 PM
The real problem with a Transmogrifist is the fact that if, for comparison, you take all 10 levels by level 17, then you get the nice powers, but most of them only apply to a few things. If you had full progression, you would get Shapechange, along with about half of the class features of the Transmogrifist, at the same level, but for everything you could turn into.

That said, they would still be absolutely terrifying with full progression.

Other than them, there's still the matter of the:

Acolyte of the Skin (They have heat vision!)
Mindbender (For Enchanters, there would be nothing better)
Green Star Adept (There are some useful things)

Even the one level that you lose from Malconvoker or Nightmare Spinner can be sorely missed.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-15, 08:45 PM
PrCs that lose manifesting can be mitigated somewhat if you are willing to use the Ardent as the base class.

Since the level of powers they can choose is determined by manifester level, not class level, taking Practiced Manifester allows you to still choose higher level powers. Of course, you still have fewer powers known.

But losing casting really does suck. Two levels is pretty much my limit, and that's over 20 levels, not just one class.

But that assumes I am playing a caster, and not a different concept that may also have some casting ability, but isn't the focus.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 10:05 PM
Almost every single one that loses any spellcasting levels at all. Astonishingly few things in 3.5 are worth losing even one.

Perhaps, but you can lose a fair bit and still be functional, especially with Practiced X to help you out.

The way I see it, as long as you get 9ths, its no harm no foul. Not like a Tier 1-2 will be completely useless with a few lost CL anyway.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-15, 10:13 PM
PrCs should be balanced so that they are an equally valid choice compared to single classing. At the cost of (whatever), you should get (whatever)'s worth of bonuses from the PrC. So if you lose a spellcasting level, you should get a lost spellcasting level's worth of class features. Which is very hard to do - there's only maybe a handful of PrCs that succeed in doing so.

Yes, T1's are too powerful. Yes, they should be balanced. But stealth nerfs in the form of PrCs is never a good idea. Balance the base class, and then it's no longer a problem. But no one should ever be like "I really like this PrC, it's cool and interesting, but I feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot just for taking it." Because that's not fun. Yeah, whatever, you can get over it, you're still going to be powerful - but to look at it and say "I specifically went out of my way to qualify for this, just to nerf myself" is not cool.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 10:13 PM
Perhaps, but you can lose a fair bit and still be functional, especially with Practiced X to help you out.

The way I see it, as long as you get 9ths, its no harm no foul. Not like a Tier 1-2 will be completely useless with a few lost CL anyway.

Sure, in level 20 builds. But I like my wizards to have higher level spells as soon as possible in actual games. And I have to agree with dragoon wraith there. Not many things are worth 1 lost CL.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-15, 10:35 PM
Arcane Archer. Zero progression. Ouchie.

Greenstar Adept- flavory. But half casting, spend lots of GP to even be able to advance levels and have automatic enemies? Ick. If was full casting would be worth it.

True Necromancer- technically doesn't lose any levels since every level advances either Arcane or Divine. But it is a theurge class. So the lack of full advancement makes it stink a lot.

Pale Master- level 1 has no advancement. The class is fun and good. But level 1 literally has zero other than +2 to will save. I think the class is almost powerful enough to handle its own for the loss to be worth it. But level 1 stinks so much no one wants to take it unless the character is prebuilt to a higher level in the PrC.

The problem with restoring full casting in general is that this removes any incentive for sorcerers to not PrC out. Unfortunately, if a class was made that actually had enough power to justify the loss of levels people would likely see it as immediately overpowered.

Some PrCs are so powerful that they might be ok even if they lost some casting. Guess what? Those are never the ones that do. Rainbow Servant and Incantatrix are excellent examples of this.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-15, 10:42 PM
The problem with restoring full casting in general is that this removes any incentive for sorcerers to not PrC out. Unfortunately, if a class was made that actually had enough power to justify the loss of levels people would likely see it as immediately overpowered.
Disagree. The Malconvoker is an excellent example of a class that is worth it. As is the Recaster, and Sand Shaper for spontaneous casters.

But I disagree with your point about Sorcerers. Sorcerers typically have a very difficult time qualifying for classes - they don't get Bonus Feats, they have very few skill points and an extremely limited Class Skills list, they have a limited spell selection, etc. Classes that are trivial for the Wizard to enter can be very difficult for the Sorcerer to enter (Loremaster, I'm looking at you). It's very easy for the requirements to make a PrC just not worth it to the Sorcerer. You don't have to even touch spellcasting to balance such PrCs.


Some PrCs are so powerful that they might be ok even if they lost some casting. Guess what? Those are never the ones that do. Rainbow Servant and Incantatrix are excellent examples of this.
Incantatrix, I agree.

Rainbow Servant... I'm not so sure. Yes, you get every Cleric Spell added to your Spell List. Which is decent for Sorcerers and Wizards, and excellent for Warmages. But at least in the former pair's case, they already have the better spell list. There are simply just not that many Cleric spells that are especially worth having - I can't think of too many that would be worth a spellcasting progression level.

For the full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage), you're probably right, though.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 10:47 PM
Sure, in level 20 builds. But I like my wizards to have higher level spells as soon as possible in actual games. And I have to agree with dragoon wraith there. Not many things are worth 1 lost CL.

Losing a CL at level 5 can suck, I agree. But at 9? You're already showing up the rest of the entire tier 3+ party at that point - why not slow things down a bit, rein yourself in, and enjoy the payoff as the class features start rolling in? Sure you can have your cake and eat it too with a full progression PrC, but variety is the spice of life. "Nerfing" yourself can benefit you in the long run when you step out of the spotlight and avoid your DM's watchful eye.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-15, 10:59 PM
Disagree. The Malconvoker is an excellent example of a class that is worth it. As is the Recaster, and Sand Shaper for spontaneous casters.


I agree with the first. I don't know anything about the Recaster (what book is it in?) and don't know enough about the Sand Shaper. Although people do seem to claim that the Malconvoker is overpowered (and the fact that most summoning builds use it suggest that it is pretty good).




But I disagree with your point about Sorcerers. Sorcerers typically have a very difficult time qualifying for classes - they don't get Bonus Feats, they have very few skill points and an extremely limited Class Skills list, they have a limited spell selection, etc. Classes that are trivial for the Wizard to enter can be very difficult for the Sorcerer to enter (Loremaster, I'm looking at you). It's very easy for the requirements to make a PrC just not worth it to the Sorcerer. You don't have to even touch spellcasting to balance such PrCs.

That's a good point. And considering I'm the person who always illustrates the power difference between wizards and sorcerers by pointing out how much harder it is for sorcs to qualify for PrCs, yeah, I'll just go crawl back over here now.



For the full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage), you're probably right, though.

Yeah, so if it is just for the full-list classes then it isn't as impressive a claim. The issue here seems to then stem more from an unforeseen interaction between specific classes rather than anything intrinsically amazing about the Rainbow Servant.

So I guess most of my points fail.

OT: I seem to also recall that there's some weird issue about the RS having different spellcasting progression depending on some wording problem. What exactly is that?

Nate the Snake
2010-03-15, 11:56 PM
OT: I seem to also recall that there's some weird issue about the RS having different spellcasting progression depending on some wording problem. What exactly is that?

The Rainbow Servant's progression table says it loses caster levels, but the accompanying text doesn't.

The rule of thumb is "text trumps table," but it doesn't help that none of the PrCs with lost caster levels in their tables mention them in their text.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-15, 11:58 PM
The rule of thumb is "text trumps table," but it doesn't help that none of the PrCs with lost caster levels in their tables mention them in their text.

None? In any book? I don't have LM handy but I'm pretty sure that for all of the PrCs in that the text just says to refer to the tables. Is this a general issue in Complete Divine or is RS the only one that has this problem?

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 12:25 AM
The rule of thumb is "text trumps table," but it doesn't help that none of the PrCs with lost caster levels in their tables mention them in their text.

There are PrCs that mention lost caster levels in their text.

"At every even level..."
"At every level after first..."
"At every level except 4th and 9th..."

etc.

Pluto
2010-03-16, 01:26 AM
In general, I'd rather strip CL from the good classes than give it to the crappy ones.


But Master of the Unseen Hand could use a bone. 4/5 CL would be more than fine.

And Witchborn Binder is useless without full meldshaping.

I want to love Dirgesinger, but between the skills and the spells, straight Bard is better and more interesting. 3-4/5 CL wouldn't be unreasonable.

Arcane Archer should have 8/10 casting, as far as I can see.

I'd like to see 7/10 casting on Horizon Walkers. There are too many levels spent on too little, IMO.

Bladesinger just needs to be redone, but 8/10 could work as a patch.

Fiendbinder just makes me sad with the pricetag on its demons and the lost CL. One or the other would be reasonable, but both?

...There are plenty more (probably half the PrC's total), but these are the classes I especially want to love.

edit:

There are PrCs that mention lost caster levels in their text.
Complete Divine took an exception to that rule.

faceroll
2010-03-16, 02:57 AM
I would remove casting progression from the really good prestige classes. I would give incantatrix 1/2 casting, IotSFV 7/10, master specialist 9/10. Most of the gimme FR prcs would be 9/10s, too, unless they give really cool stuff, then they'd get 7/10 or 1/2.

If the class required two near-useless feats and gave nothing more than feat requirements back, then it would get to keep its casting. Archmage and Loremaster are about what I think a full casting prestige class should look like.

Starscream
2010-03-16, 03:49 AM
When I DM, my general rule is that any PrC that costs at least 1 caster level per 5 class levels is enough of a blow to make up for some pretty powerful class features.

To problem is that for full casters (apart from druids anyway) there really isn't any reason not to take a PrC. You may lose familiar progression, a couple of feats, some Turn Undead potency...but your spells are basically your only class feature that matters, so if you keep that why not branch out?

If a PrC doesn't cost at least 1/5 CL, then it's negotiable. Maybe I'll toughen the entry requirements. Maybe I'll treat it like Archmage, and have certain spell slots permanently filled in order to get the class features. And if you need to multiclass to qualify to get in, that will be taken into consideration.

taltamir
2010-03-16, 04:46 AM
Definitely Metamind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm)
Thankfully fixed in Hyperconscious.

Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) always makes me cry.

agreed and agreed.
with metamind you really have to ask "what were they thinking"... his special ability is... "free power points", the cost? lost caster levels which grant MORE power points than he loses.

with hirophant you can take a 1 level dip for reach spell to abuse the chain mechanics (convert self only spell to touch spell with some feat, convert touch to 30 foot range spell with hirophant reach spell, chain it... you can now hit the entire party with some godly buffs).
A really sick and twistic power of the hirophant is the +1CL, since hirophant does NOT advance casting, it means you sacrificed +1 spells advancement which included CL, for just the +1 in CL.
Although, if you have practiced spellcaster they will stack and you will be one CL higher then normal, its not worth it though.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-16, 05:49 AM
When I DM, my general rule is that any PrC that costs at least 1 caster level per 5 class levels is enough of a blow to make up for some pretty powerful class features.

To problem is that for full casters (apart from druids anyway) there really isn't any reason not to take a PrC. You may lose familiar progression, a couple of feats, some Turn Undead potency...but your spells are basically your only class feature that matters, so if you keep that why not branch out?

If a PrC doesn't cost at least 1/5 CL, then it's negotiable. Maybe I'll toughen the entry requirements. Maybe I'll treat it like Archmage, and have certain spell slots permanently filled in order to get the class features. And if you need to multiclass to qualify to get in, that will be taken into consideration.

Actually, losing familiar progression is a benefit. After the first few levels, you have all the benefits you care about - anything else just makes them dock you more XP when they die without a real gain.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 06:02 AM
Complete Divine took an exception to that rule.

Nah, it was just poorly edited. They followed it just fine with the Hospitaler PrC in that book.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 08:00 AM
I agree with the first. I don't know anything about the Recaster (what book is it in?) and don't know enough about the Sand Shaper. Although people do seem to claim that the Malconvoker is overpowered (and the fact that most summoning builds use it suggest that it is pretty good).
Recaster is in Races of Eberron, nifty 4/5 spellcasting PrC that allows you to apply Metamagic on the fly and ignore some spell components.

Sand Shaper adds, IIRC, 43 spells known at level 1 (which is also the level it misses spellcasting progression). You even get a few 2nd level spells (three of the +4 to an ability mod spells) as 1st level spells.

But honestly, even though it more than doubles the number of spells known for a Sorcerer, it's only barely worth it. That is how powerful spellcasting levels are.

I've never heard anyone argue that Malconvokers are broken; summoning in general and by association Malconvokers, yes, but not that particular class. The Malconvoker is one of the best PrCs Wizards ever printed.


I would remove casting progression from the really good prestige classes. I would give incantatrix 1/2 casting, IotSFV 7/10, master specialist 9/10. Most of the gimme FR prcs would be 9/10s, too, unless they give really cool stuff, then they'd get 7/10 or 1/2.
Even Incantatrix would be worthless with 1/2 casting. Seriously, for any full-caster, it is damn near impossible to justify losing 5 spellcasting levels. Actually, even for a gish, I can only think of one (Swiftblade) that justifies 6/10 progression. 1/2? Useless.

Iot7V at 7/10? Not worth it, at all.

Master Specialist at 9/10? Extremely not worth it, the only reason that class is good because you can enter early and get some neat tricks. It's essentially "class features for specialists".

Very, very, very few PrCs justify 9/10 spellcasting. To my knowledge, none justify anything less than that for a full caster (Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage might, though, if they did lose more than one). The vast majority of PrCs should not lose any, because their class features do not offer anything even remotely close to the power of even a single lost spellcasting level.

Use prerequisites, lost spell slots, or banned schools to balance PrCs. Not lost spellcasting levels, not unless you're offering incredible benefits.


If the class required two near-useless feats and gave nothing more than feat requirements back, then it would get to keep its casting. Archmage and Loremaster are about what I think a full casting prestige class should look like.
Archmage and Loremaster are very nice, though Loremaster pisses me off because it's so utterly trivial for the Wizard to enter and so damn near impossible for the Sorcerer to enter...

Gametime
2010-03-16, 11:33 AM
Iot7V at 7/10? Not worth it, at all.



Considering it's only a 7 level prestige class? I think this progression would be fine if it's the first seven levels. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-03-16, 01:53 PM
Sand Shaper adds, IIRC, 43 spells known at level 1 (which is also the level it misses spellcasting progression). You even get a few 2nd level spells (three of the +4 to an ability mod spells) as 1st level spells.Hmm, I seem to recall that they don't gain access to all of the spells at the first level, and their spell list while wide wasn't that hot. Oh and they lose another caster level along the way, which is a bummer if you wanted to stay in the PrC.

The problem with balancing caster PrCs with the base classes is that the base classes have hardly any class features beyond the few first levels.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 03:39 PM
Considering it's only a 7 level prestige class? I think this progression would be fine if it's the first seven levels. :smalltongue:
7/10 = 70% = 4.9/7. I'm not sure even the Iot7V is worth 2 lost spellcasting levels, though it's better than the 3 lost levels I had thought we were talking about.


Hmm, I seem to recall that they don't gain access to all of the spells at the first level, and their spell list while wide wasn't that hot. Oh and they lose another caster level along the way, which is a bummer if you wanted to stay in the PrC.

The problem with balancing caster PrCs with the base classes is that the base classes have hardly any class features beyond the few first levels.
They get all of the spells added to their spells known; obviously they can't cast them without the spellslots to use them with, but you can be a Sand Shaper 1/other PrC X and access the higher level spells.

Anyway, yes, the list isn't so great. Really, those three 2nd-level-as-1st-level spells are the highlight of the list. Still, it is a lot of spells.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-16, 03:50 PM
Let's see:

Mindbender would be playable with 7/10s spellcasting and a bonus to Will saves.

Incanatrix needs to be 5/10ths casting (only way to balance those class features).

Tainted Scholar needs to be 5/10ths casting (even that may be too much)

Planar Shepherd needs to lose casting entirely (only way to be safe, makes it playable with Wildshape Rangers). Planar Bubble needs to be changed so it explicitly does not duplicate the Time Trait of the emulated plane.

Dweomerkeeper needs to be an Ultimate Magus-style Dual Advancement class. Supernatural Spell should still include XP components and only reduce the price of expensive material components (5%/2 class levels, max of 25%).

True Necromancer needs to be 10 levels long, and have Ultimate Magus-style advancement (and entry requirements).

Eldritch Knight, while not lacking in Casting progression, could make good use of the Arcane Channeling class feature of the Duskblade (but not the Full Attack version).


War Priest would be playable with 9/10ths or even Full Casting.

Devotee of the Silver Flame (ECS) needs 9/10ths casting or Suel Arcanamach spell progression with it's own list of Divine spells.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 04:07 PM
I don't know if 5/10 works for the Incantatrix. Even Metamagic shenanigans have a hard time matching 9th level spells with 7th level spells.

I don't recall the bonuses on Mindbender, but I don't remember them being worth 3 spellcasting levels.

Tainted Scholar and Planar Shepherd are just broken, full-stop. I don't think you'll ever balance them, other than by changing their other features. Planar Shepherd, maybe.

If True Necromancer got anything right, it was having more than 10 levels. That's a good thing. Having the stupid alternating progression thing, however, needs to be fixed. Can't remember off-hand whether or not it should be missing some spellcasting levels along the way, though the Ultimate Magus progression isn't bad.

Eldritch Knight doesn't earn its lost spellcasting level, not by a long shot. Full BAB and a Fighter Bonus Feat are not worth a lost spellcasting level. It needs quite a lot more - class features and better spellcasting.

Pluto
2010-03-16, 04:15 PM
agreed and agreed.
with metamind you really have to ask "what were they thinking"... his special ability is... "free power points", the cost? lost caster levels which grant MORE power points than he loses.
His special ability is "Free Powers" - a different thing entirely, when considering the Augmentation cap.

That isn't to say it's better than (or even as strong as) straight Psion, but it does nova harder. And its abilities do make sense, in a way. (Moreso if you consider it an epic PrC, but whatever.)

And with the Ardent and Anarchic Initiate it can be pretty ridiculous in situations where nova/narcolepsy tactics are an option.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 04:17 PM
Anarchic Initiate is just a terribly written class.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-16, 04:18 PM
I don't know if 5/10 works for the Incantatrix. Even Metamagic shenanigans have a hard time matching 9th level spells with 7th level spells.

It's still powerful, but not "9th level spells and Incanatrix powerful). Have the first 5 levels with no casting advancement at all, and the last 5 have normal advancement.


I don't recall the bonuses on Mindbender, but I don't remember them being worth 3 spellcasting levels.

True.


Tainted Scholar and Planar Shepherd are just broken, full-stop. I don't think you'll ever balance them, other than by changing their other features. Planar Shepherd, maybe.

Tainted Scholar shouldn't have been printed. Planar Shepherd could be theoretically balanced if the Time Trait wasn't duplicated and the Wild Shape didn't grant SLAs (Wish abuse). It would still be very powerful, but the changes would keep it from shattering a campaign outright.


If True Necromancer got anything right, it was having more than 10 levels. That's a good thing. Having the stupid alternating progression thing, however, needs to be fixed. Can't remember off-hand whether or not it should be missing some spellcasting levels along the way, though the Ultimate Magus progression isn't bad.

The problem was it alternating between casting advancements too frequently.


Eldritch Knight doesn't earn its lost spellcasting level, not by a long shot. Full BAB and a Fighter Bonus Feat are not worth a lost spellcasting level. It needs quite a lot more - class features and better spellcasting.

As I said, sticking Arcane Channeling in the class would go miles towards making up that lost caster level.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 04:22 PM
Not familiar enough with the ability - IIRC, it's sort of like Smiting Spell, but better? Apply the effects of a spell to the person you whack with a sword? And I suppose the full-attack version gets that effect on each attack?

I'd think the latter might be worth a lost spellcasting level, but I'm not sure the former would be.

As for Incantatrix being 0/5+5/5, oh gods, why? That sounds like a terrible plan. How much would it suck to actually play through those five levels? A lot. No, I don't think that's a good idea at all.

And the True Necromancer should not have alternated at all; the Ultimate Magus does its thing pretty well, and that might work, but the TN loses far too many spellcasting levels. But having it be long enough to take to 20 is a very good thing, and more dual-progression PrCs should do it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-16, 04:27 PM
Not familiar enough with the ability - IIRC, it's sort of like Smiting Spell, but better? Apply the effects of a spell to the person you whack with a sword? And I suppose the full-attack version gets that effect on each attack?

Ok, how are you familiar with Smiting Spell but not Arcane Channeling? Duskblades were printed in PH2, where Smiting Spell is from!

But, yes. That's the basics of the ability. The way it's better is it isn't a Metamagic feat and only takes a Standard action to use.



I'd think the latter might be worth a lost spellcasting level, but I'm not sure the former would be.

Having the lost level at 1st would deter people dipping for Mindsight.


As for Incantatrix being 0/5+5/5, oh gods, why? That sounds like a terrible plan. How much would it suck to actually play through those five levels? A lot. No, I don't think that's a good idea at all.

It balances out the ability to metamagic other people's spells though, and I know many optimizers would see that advancement and falter. Then it becomes a real opportunity thing: Either you stick with magic items and crafting for 5 levels in exchange for being able to Persist/Whatever metamagic you want on any spell anyone casts, or you don't use Incanatrix. The trade off balances out the most powerful ability of the class.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 05:25 PM
Ok, how are you familiar with Smiting Spell but not Arcane Channeling? Duskblades were printed in PH2, where Smiting Spell is from!
Because I've never played a Duskblade, but have played plenty of casters interested in Metamagic feats? I knew the Duskblade got an ability sort of like that, I just meant I was hazy on the details.


But, yes. That's the basics of the ability. The way it's better is it isn't a Metamagic feat and only takes a Standard action to use.
Smiting Spell takes longer? Ouch.


Having the lost level at 1st would deter people dipping for Mindsight.
Oh, I was still talking about the Eldritch Knight, actually. As in, I'm not sure the standard action version of the Duskblade ability would be worth a spellcasting level, but the full-action one would.

On the other hand, that really dilutes the Duskblades schtick...


It balances out the ability to metamagic other people's spells though, and I know many optimizers would see that advancement and falter. Then it becomes a real opportunity thing: Either you stick with magic items and crafting for 5 levels in exchange for being able to Persist/Whatever metamagic you want on any spell anyone casts, or you don't use Incanatrix. The trade off balances out the most powerful ability of the class.
I'd have to reread the class and the exact order in which it gets abilities to really comment, but really, I have a very hard time imagining that progression being at all fun. Balanced, maybe, but just less fun to play.