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Perducci
2010-03-15, 10:59 PM
So, I've been kicking around some ideas for a new character and want to build a "kill-it-before-it-blinks" character. Not a charge-pounce-leaping-shock-super smash in the face with a greataxe character. More of an assassin, but not the class. A social skill-monkey rogue.

Anyway, to the point...does Iaijutsu Focus stack with sneak attack?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-15, 11:01 PM
So, I've been kicking around some ideas for a new character and want to build a "kill-it-before-it-blinks" character. Not a charge-pounce-leaping-shock-super smash in the face with a greataxe character. More of an assassin, but not the class. A social skill-monkey rogue.

Anyway, to the point...does Iaijutsu Focus stack with sneak attack?

Yes, but fluff-wise you may have trouble since the whole point of Iaijutsu is that you are being a nice honorable samurai. It should also stack with skirmish and surprise strike damage which might fit better without refluffing.

Optimystik
2010-03-15, 11:03 PM
Yes, but only on the first attack, unless you are somehow keeping them flat-footed.

Use Factotum, not Rogue (they get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, tons of skill points to dump into it, and of course sneak attack.)

The weapon you want is of course a Gnomish Quickrazor.

Perducci
2010-03-15, 11:04 PM
An Iaijutsu Duel would be honorable and un-fluffy. Just using it to quickly draw your blade and slice open a new breathing hole in someones neck before they even realize you are attacking has nothing to do with honor. So, I see no problem.

Edit...my whole point is to do massive damage in the first round. I like the flavor. Besides, the group I play with doesn't give a crud about optimization. Point-playing an orc barbarian who charges for an average of 50 or so damage a round was seen as being too powerful.

EDIT2-Gnomish Quickrazor? What is that in?

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-15, 11:10 PM
Gnome Quickrazor is in Races of Stone. It's an exotic weapon that lets you draw and sheathe it as a free action. Perfect for Iaijutsu Focus builds.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 11:12 PM
Indeed, Iaijutsu practitioners were often infamous because many swordsmen would practice their skills on random passersby in times of peace. Not all Japanese swordsmen are samurai, and even less were what we'd consider 'honorable' today.

Perducci
2010-03-15, 11:18 PM
Thanks so far. One more Q...We play pretty low level Pathfinder(well right now).

How can I squeeze the most out of this idea at level three?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-15, 11:19 PM
Indeed, Iaijutsu practitioners were often infamous because many swordsmen would practice their skills on random passersby in times of peace. Not all Japanese swordsmen are samurai, and even less were what we'd consider 'honorable' today.

Pshaw. And the next thing you'll tell me is that ninja's primary means of stealth was either disguising themselves or intimidating people to the point where they were too scared to say they had seen a Ninja. And then you'll point out that ninjas were actually known for their skill at arson. You are no fun at all.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 11:23 PM
Pshaw. And the next thing you'll tell me is that ninja's primary means of stealth was either disguising themselves or intimidating people to the point where they were too scared to say they had seen a Ninja. And then you'll point out that ninjas were actually known for their skill at arson. You are no fun at all.

Point to Josh, D&D goes of the myth not the history.

Saintheart
2010-03-16, 12:21 AM
Thanks so far. One more Q...We play pretty low level Pathfinder(well right now).

How can I squeeze the most out of this idea at level three?

Not terribly well-advanced thoughts, but...

Skill tricks -- costs you 2 skill points, but 1/encounter, Hidden Blade (Complete Scoundrel, p. 87): Quick Draw + 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand + this skill trick = target unaware of your concealed weapon is considered flatfooted against the first attack you make in a round where you made a successful Sleight of Hand check to conceal the weapon.

For an actual feat, I'd suggest Flick of the Wrist, (Complete Warrior, p. 99) which is heavier on the prerequsites -- Dex 17 + Quick Draw + 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand. If you draw a light weapon and make a melee attack with it in the same round, you catch your opponent flat-footed for the purpose of this attack only. Only can be used 1/round and once per opponent during a single combat encounter.

Both of these synergise with Iaijutsu. Flick of the Wrist gets more uses, but it's restrictive on weapons -- light weapons only. On RAW as I read it, Hidden Blade doesn't restrict you to light weapons ... although pulling off a check to conceal that greatsword from an opponent at level 3 could be interesting ... :smallbiggrin: and of course you're down to 1/encounter with that skill trick.

JaronK
2010-03-16, 12:24 AM
For some reason, an online source I found states sneak attack doesn't work with IF. But this doesn't seem to be in the books, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

JaronK

Greenish
2010-03-16, 12:36 AM
. although pulling off a check to conceal that greatsword from an opponent at level 3 could be interesting ..You don't have to conceal it so well that no one will notice it, just to attempt to conceal it for the trick.

Besides, attempting to find concealed weapons is an application of Search and takes a full round action. :smallwink:

faceroll
2010-03-16, 03:18 AM
Yes, but fluff-wise you may have trouble since the whole point of Iaijutsu is that you are being a nice honorable samurai. It should also stack with skirmish and surprise strike damage which might fit better without refluffing.

Iaijutsu has nothing to do with honor or samurai. It's just focusing your mind to strike hard & true.

Err, I mean, make up whatever damn fluff you want. Mechanically there aren't an problems.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-16, 04:11 AM
For some reason, an online source I found states sneak attack doesn't work with IF. But this doesn't seem to be in the books, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

JaronK

Nope. They can work together.



From Oriental Adventures FAQs

If a character with the sneak attack ability and the
Iaijutsu Focus skill enters into a duel and wins the
Iaijutsu Focus check, does the damage from Iaijutsu
Focus stack with the sneak attack damage?

Yes, the bonus damage stacks. Note that in an iaijutsu
duel, the character who loses initiative in the strike phase is
flat-footed, even though that character took an action in the
stance phase (see page 82 in the Oriental Adventures book).
The flat-footed character is subject to sneak attack damage as
well as Iaijutsu Focus damage.


The example is with a duel but there is no reason to assume a different situation in other istances.

Grumman
2010-03-16, 09:00 AM
I've got one build of this sort, that uses Shadow Creature Lesser Drow and a few full B.A.B. classes to get Dread Fang of Lolth 10 and Iaijutsu Master 5 by level 20, if you use LA buyoff. Ex-SLT Barbarian 1 / Sneak Attack, Hit-and-Run Fighter 3 / OA Samurai 1, I think.

Gametime
2010-03-16, 11:26 AM
Pshaw. And the next thing you'll tell me is that ninja's primary means of stealth was either disguising themselves or intimidating people to the point where they were too scared to say they had seen a Ninja. And then you'll point out that ninjas were actually known for their skill at arson. You are no fun at all.

Stop this senseless libel! Next you'll be trying to convince people that the modern conception of the ninja's outfit arose not from the adoption of a black sneaking suit but from the clothing worn by stagehands in traditional Japanese theatre, utilized to maintain an element of surprise since the audience was used to ignoring the stagehands and would thus be shocked when one of them suddenly leaped forward to join the action!

Greenish
2010-03-16, 12:58 PM
Stop this senseless libel! Next you'll be trying to convince people that the modern conception of the ninja's outfit arose not from the adoption of a black sneaking suit but from the clothing worn by stagehands in traditional Japanese theatre, utilized to maintain an element of surprise since the audience was used to ignoring the stagehands and would thus be shocked when one of them suddenly leaped forward to join the action!…And then ninjas totally flipped out and killed everyone with single strikes of their samurai swords.

Person_Man
2010-03-16, 01:04 PM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Confound the Big Folk (Races of Stone) yet. If you are two sizes smaller then your enemy, you can enter his square. The next round if you are still in his square then your enemy is flat footed, qualifying him for Sneak Attack and Iaijutsu Focus. Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) uses this trick as his primary source of bonus damage. There are a bunch of other combos associated with this as well.

jpreem
2010-03-16, 01:04 PM
If a character with the sneak attack ability and the
Iaijutsu Focus skill enters into a duel and wins the
Iaijutsu Focus check, does the damage from Iaijutsu
Focus stack with the sneak attack damage?

If a if a woodchuck could chuck wood :D :D
Sorry just seeing this block of text somehow stuck this into my mind.

truemane
2010-03-16, 01:05 PM
…And then ninjas totally flipped out and killed everyone with single strikes of their it's samurai swords.

Fixed that for you. You meant ninja. Singular. According to the Inverse Ninja Law, multiple ninja are incapable of killing anything with any number of strikes with anything.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 01:10 PM
Fixed that for you. You meant ninja. Singular. According to the Inverse Ninja Law, multiple ninja are incapable of killing anything with any number of strikes with anything.Oh yeah, that's a specific application of the Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.ConservationOfNin jitsu). I'll defend my statement by claiming I didn't mean that there were several ninjas at once, just that that's what ninjas generally do.

Or something.

truemane
2010-03-18, 09:40 AM
Oh yeah, that's a specific application of the Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.ConservationOfNin jitsu). I'll defend my statement by claiming I didn't mean that there were several ninjas at once, just that that's what ninjas generally do.

Or something.

Ahhhhh.... so you were merely describing a general inclination and not relating a specific instance.

Understood.

Retracted, Your Honour!

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-03-18, 02:56 PM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Confound the Big Folk (Races of Stone) yet. If you are two sizes smaller then your enemy, you can enter his square. The next round if you are still in his square then your enemy is flat footed, qualifying him for Sneak Attack and Iaijutsu Focus. Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) uses this trick as his primary source of bonus damage. There are a bunch of other combos associated with this as well.I smell reach+thicket of blades in there. Does a successful hold the line movement stopage come before or after the movement?

Person_Man
2010-03-18, 04:03 PM
I smell reach+thicket of blades in there. Does a successful hold the line movement stopage come before or after the movement?

Hold the Line occurs in reaction to an enemy Charging into any square you threaten, so I don't think it would work well for this combo. If you wanted to move into an enemy's square and then prevent him from moving away from you so that you can ensure that he will be Flat Footed the next round from Confound the Big Folk, I would reccomend Tripping him (CtBF makes this pretty easy by allowing you to use your Dex to do so and negating your enemy's Size bonus) or by climbing aboard him (Giantbane feat). You can also use Goad, Test of Mettle, and probably a dozen other methods.