Help with familiar

[Coplantor]

I see evert now and then people talking about familiars gaining feats and stat bonuses like characters do with HD advancement, this works this way? familiars get feats with HD advancement?

[RagnaroksChosen]

no they don't.

only companion esc things that gain feats are animal companion and psicrystals... mabye pally mounts but im not sure.

[Coplantor]

OK, thanks. Part of me is sad, because I'm playing a wizard :smalltongue:

[Vizzerdrix]

ya familiars get the shaft sadly. Talk with your DM and see if he will allow you to advance them some way.

[Coplantor]

ya familiars get the shaft sadly. Talk with your DM and see if he will allow you to advance them some way.

Really? Give he optimizer player who is playing a wizard more tools to work with?
Might work, it's an E6 campaign afer all.

[RagnaroksChosen]

base familars yes they could use the boost...

Improved familars however i would say no. as they can get pritty reduclous with feats.

[Coplantor]

base familars yes they could use the boost...

Improved familars however i would say no. as they can get pritty reduclous with feats.

No love for the air elementals?:smallwink:

Meh, crows/ravens are much funnier.

[Vizzerdrix]

Really? Give he optimizer player who is playing a wizard more tools to work with?
Might work, it's an E6 campaign afer all.

No, give the optomizer player a reason to keep their familiar instead of swapping it out for abjurant jaunt.

[RagnaroksChosen]

No love for the air elementals?:smallwink:

Meh, crows/ravens are much funnier.


Its not that.. I love improved familar... but my imp doesn't need power attack, or improved expertise/ trip

[Coplantor]

No, give the optomizer player a reason to keep their familiar instead of swapping it out for abjurant jaunt.

Ouch, touche.

Then obtain familiar should be banned. Since that feat would give the guy with abjurant jaunt a familiar after waiting a couple of levels.

I dont know, I like the idea of extra familiar advancement options, because familiars are really cool, yet most of the time they are, well, rather useless.
But giving them options, and if they can talk (that's why I like crow/raven), they feel like another member of the party. Of course, they shouldnt turn into something like the animal companion wich is sometimes, even more useful than another party member.:smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Familiars kick ass tho. Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability [SpC], Use Magic Device, Improved Familiar (Telepathy, Communes for free, etc.) and various skillery are all awesome reasons to keep a familiar around (it can Aid Another basically all your skill checks). Hell, they can be turned into decent combatants with some work (and it's still expensive for it to die than a PC).

[Coplantor]

If you have enough wiz levels and access to the right spells, this campaign caps at lvl 6

[taltamir]

1. swap out your familiar for an ACF
2. take the feat "take familiar" when you will actually have use for one. As a bonus, it considers ALL your classes that have arcane casting for calculating your level if you take it as a feat. so any PrCs will advance your familiar if you do it that way.

Examples of when its a good idea to take the familiar:
1. when you have a high enough use magic device for it to become useful in combat.
2. when you are a high enough level to take a really good improved familiar.

example: an eladrin coure is an unbelievably good familiar, it requires you to be level 7, have the familiar feat, and have the celestial familiar feat. You also need to contact one who is willing to become your familiar. The last part is tricky at level 7, you need to be able to cast planer binding spells.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarbindinglesser.htm
Which you can do at level 9.
So you can take the familiar feat at level 6, celestial familiar at level 9, and then get an eladrin coure familiar. And you enjoyed having abrupt jaunt or something equally awesome until now.

make sure to choose a really nice ACF.
in this page you can find a list of base classes: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/
the base classes list includes ACF (acf = alternate class features). So you can look in the wizard portion and find a really nice wizard ACF.

note that not ALL ACFs are there.

[Coplantor]

1. swap out your familiar for an ACF
2. take the feat "take familiar" when you will actually have use for one. As a bonus, it considers ALL your classes that have arcane casting for calculating your level if you take it as a feat. so any PrCs will advance your familiar if you do it that way.

Examples of when its a good idea to take the familiar:
1. when you have a high enough use magic device for it to become useful in combat.
2. when you are a high enough level to take a really good improved familiar.

example: an eladrin coure is an unbelievably good familiar, it requires you to be level 7, have the familiar feat, and have the celestial familiar feat. You also need to contact one who is willing to become your familiar. The last part is tricky at level 7, you need to be able to cast planer binding spells.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarbindinglesser.htm
Which you can do at level 9.
So you can take the familiar feat at level 6, celestial familiar at level 9, and then get an eladrin coure familiar. And you enjoyed having abrupt jaunt or something equally awesome until now.

make sure to choose a really nice ACF.
in this page you can find a list of base classes: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/
the base classes list includes ACF (acf = alternate class features). So you can look in the wizard portion and find a really nice wizard ACF.

note that not ALL ACFs are there.

This is very nice and I will take it into account once I play a different wizard.
(Wich I might very soon)

[Vizzerdrix]

Ouch, touche.

Then obtain familiar should be banned. Since that feat would give the guy with abjurant jaunt a familiar after waiting a couple of levels.

I dont know, I like the idea of extra familiar advancement options, because familiars are really cool, yet most of the time they are, well, rather useless.
But giving them options, and if they can talk (that's why I like crow/raven), they feel like another member of the party. Of course, they shouldnt turn into something like the animal companion wich is sometimes, even more useful than another party member.:smalltongue:


I can not agree. A feat is a heavy investment. That is one less meta magic, or item creation, or other more useful feat.


Don't get me wrong. I love familiars. Heck, I'm working on a build that makes use of several of them at once, but it can't be denied that a familiar is a liability, not a boon.

[Coplantor]

I can not agree. A feat is a heavy investment. That is one less meta magic, or item creation, or other more useful feat.

Touche again.

Yes, that's true, guess I'm having problems watching the whole picture.

[Vizzerdrix]

That's okay. Tis why we are here :smallsmile:

[Coplantor]

That's okay. Tis why we are here :smallsmile:

Thanks! I guess it's because I'm not used to high levels campaigns. So the optimization skills I posses are mostly theory.

Also, your user name rocks, that was my brother's favourite card when we got our first deck.

[taltamir]

but it can't be denied that a familiar is a liability, not a boon.

when not min maxed you mean...
yes the standard familiar is a total liability without heavy optimization. But you can optimize it to be very useful.

[RagnaroksChosen]

it also depends on what you are getting the familar from...

Such as

a Hexblade or a duskblade it will be less of a liability for.
or even a bard.

[Coplantor]

it also depends on what you are getting the familar from...

Such as

a Hexblade or a duskblade it will be less of a liability for.
or even a bard.

Indeed, [d10+con bonus]/2 hp with good BAB familiar seems pretty cool

[RagnaroksChosen]

Indeed, [d10+con bonus]/2 hp with good BAB familiar seems pretty cool

ya I enjoy playing hexblades/duskblades/any thing else with 3/4's bab+
that has improved familars.. especialy ones with hands...

Once played a human duskblade that took obtain and imrpioved familars for a earth mephit... gave him light armour and a two hander. he PA'ed away and did pritty well.

[Coplantor]

ya I enjoy playing hexblades/duskblades/any thing else with 3/4's bab+
that has improved familars.. especialy ones with hands...

Once played a human duskblade that took obtain and imrpioved familars for a earth mephit... gave him light armour and a two hander. he PA'ed away and did pritty well.

Now I know what my nexy character will be. Or at least my cohort.

[Tinydwarfman]

Meh, I allways find the best use for a familiar is Polymorph. Why have one Hydra when you can have 2?

[Critical]

Swap out the familiar for abrupt jaunt. Seriously. It's a lifesaver.

[ericgrau]

Familiars advance defensively, which is what counts. That's because they're like having a 2nd character to target your spells on, or to deliver your spells. The offense improves as your spells get better, and the defense improves automatically. For example you could give your familiar protection from evil or magic circle against evil b/c no one in your party wants to be the guy that stands there blocking the evil summons without attacking them. You can polymorph them. While relatively weak, it leaves your party free to do other things; it's a free combatant. You can make them the invisible scouts when everyone else is too scared. Etc., etc.

[Petrocorus]

Familiars kick ass tho. Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability [SpC], Use Magic Device, Improved Familiar (Telepathy, Communes for free, etc.) and various skillery are all awesome reasons to keep a familiar around (it can Aid Another basically all your skill checks). Hell, they can be turned into decent combatants with some work (and it's still expensive for it to die than a PC).

How can a familiar have Use Magic Device?

[Gnaeus]

How can a familiar have Use Magic Device?

Familiar's get all of a master's skills. UMD is tricky, since the familiar has to be able to speak and hold the item to make it work, but for improved familiars it is great.

[Petrocorus]

Familiar's get all of a master's skills. UMD is tricky, since the familiar has to be able to speak and hold the item to make it work, but for improved familiars it is great.

So the master has to have tha UMD skill while he normally don't need it. And it's a cross class skill for wiz and sorc. That need a lot of optimization, no?

The Eladrin coure is in what book? BoED?

[Godskook]

Swap out the familiar for abrupt jaunt. Seriously. It's a lifesaver.

And then get it back with obtain familiar. The ACFs you can trade a familiar in for are potentially build defining and are only available for the price of a familiar. That's what makes the trade worth it, cause you can always get the familiar back at a later date with a feat slot.

[ericgrau]

So the master has to have tha UMD skill while he normally don't need it. And it's a cross class skill for wiz and sorc. That need a lot of optimization, no?

The Eladrin coure is in what book? BoED?
Loremaster gets use magic device as a class skill and (4+int) skill points. And full casting. Wizard can dip 1 level and max it out. All basically for free, as the only significant cost of entry is the skill focus (knowledge feat). And then you use your first level of loremaster to gain a bonus feat.

[Vizzerdrix]

Familiar's get all of a master's skills. UMD is tricky, since the familiar has to be able to speak and hold the item to make it work, but for improved familiars it is great.

And all familiars gain the ability to speak with master, so the verbal part is taken care of.

[AbyssKnight]

Who says a caster doesn't need UMD? A Wizard doesn't need it for Wizard spells, but there are Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin, etc to consider.

It doesn't require a lot of optimization, several PrCs give it to you. Bard (with Obtain Familiar) has it as a base class skill.

Yes, Coure is from BoED.

[Petrocorus]

Yes, Coure is from BoED.

I just read the Celestial Familiar feat. I've the feeling that the writers really don't like Neutral Good characters.


The Coure remind me of Julia Robert in Hook.
Also a French comic named "Travis" where the hero has an holo-AI which look like this.

[Gnaeus]

And all familiars gain the ability to speak with master, so the verbal part is taken care of.

If the master happens to be the item that the familiar is trying to UMD, yes. Otherwise, no. If it can't speak to the BSF or rogue, it probably can't speak to the wand.

[taltamir]

So the master has to have tha UMD skill while he normally don't need it. And it's a cross class skill for wiz and sorc. That need a lot of optimization, no?
EVERYONE needs UMD. And besides, all you need is to take loremaster PrC and you get UMD.


The Eladrin coure is in what book? BoED?
yes... and if you don't like it the "imp" from core via improved familiar feat is very very good as well. You can also get any mephit and some just crazy... giving SLAs of spells that cost lots of gold or XP (an SLA does not cost any gold or XP to cast even if the spell it is based on does).


And all familiars gain the ability to speak with master, so the verbal part is taken care of.

and arguably, a lot of familiars like raven could use their "hand equivalent" to make gestures

[Petrocorus]

EVERYONE needs UMD. And besides, all you need is to take loremaster PrC and you get UMD.

Not easy with every build. Can you do this on gish build?



yes... and if you don't like it the "imp" from core via improved familiar feat is very very good as well. You can also get any mephit and some just crazy... giving SLAs of spells that cost lots of gold or XP (an SLA does not cost any gold or XP to cast even if the spell it is based on does).


What do think of the Pseudodragon? It seems clearly less useful than the coure, but i'm not a specialist of familiar-fu.

The musteval looks clearly less good to me also. No?

[Eldariel]

What do think of the Pseudodragon? It seems clearly less useful than the coure, but i'm not a specialist of familiar-fu.

Telepathy kicks ass. They have a feat that can be Psychically Reformed into Mindsight too. Plus, they just kick ass. Hell, they can actually have combat implications at some points.

[ericgrau]

Not easy with every build. Can you do this on gish build?
At the cost of a feat, yes. Instead of getting a feat from loremaster 1, you grab weapon trick secret for +1 AB. So you didn't lose any AB from your loremaster dip. Now maybe you'll cry when you don't get a 4th attack at a -15 penalty until 1 level later, but you'll get over it.

[taltamir]

What do think of the Pseudodragon? It seems clearly less useful than the coure, but i'm not a specialist of familiar-fu.

The musteval looks clearly less good to me also. No?

telepathy is pretty good, it has hands and can speak so activating magic items is not a problem.
the best way to use its telepathy is to have it constantly listen to the party's thoughts, then speak from one to another... so you could "think" to yourself "tell the druid to cast X" and then he telepathically tells the druid "master says you should cast X". etc.
and if you use some tricks to get it mindsight then its just godly.

[Petrocorus]

Ok, so for a good character, between a musteval, a lantern archon, a coure, a pseudodragon, what would you choose?
I notice that the rat musteval is the only one not flying.

[Eldariel]

<3 Pseudodragons.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ok, so for a good character, between a musteval, a lantern archon, a coure, a pseudodragon, what would you choose?
I notice that the rat musteval is the only one not flying.

Musteval. Mainly couse if your wizard dies you have a back up character ready to go.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Ok, so for a good character, between a musteval, a lantern archon, a coure, a pseudodragon, what would you choose?
I notice that the rat musteval is the only one not flying.


I would go with the lantern archon just cuz there cool.

[Thurbane]

Familiar's get all of a master's skills. UMD is tricky, since the familiar has to be able to speak and hold the item to make it work, but for improved familiars it is great.
Hold the item, yes. Speak, I've seen hotly debated. Some argue that a successful UMD check circumvents having to actually say a command word.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129287&highlight=familiars

Cool item for a UMD based familiar: Rod of Many Wands - let your familiar pop off three spells at once. Can get very expensive, depending on the level of the Wands.

[Pluto]

Even without UMD, familiars are great. Even at low levels. Even without Improved Familiar.

On top of Aid Another, Familiars essentially provide a reroll with any active skill check.

(Botch a Knowledge roll? Your familiar might not. Want to use a lying raven for some reason? -- and who doesn't from time to time? -- Your familiar fits the bill.)

Just don't swing it around in the open too much. That tends to cost levels.