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Lysander
2010-03-16, 10:47 AM
What are some cool tricks you've stumbled upon or thought up? I don't really mean awesome class combinations, or game destroying pun pun type exploits, but neat ways of using abilities that aren't the most obvious use of them. For example:

*Monk coating their fists with contact poison. They have poison immunity and it gives them a surprise weapon.
*Using creatures frozen with Temporal Stasis as invulnerable building blocks.
*Making a Simulacrum of yourself as a decoy or representative.
*Using Flesh to Stone to trap a creature's soul (since it isn't dead)
*Using forcecage on yourself as a protective measure (for example while astral projecting)
*Using Discern Location with objects as a way of sending messages to allies. For example moving a cup from "The Attack Is Still On" building to the "Cancel The Attack" building so people can get coded messages. Unlike Sending the person moving the object doesn't need any magic on their end, only people who have touched the cup can get the message, and they can still have the location protected against scrying.
*Using Veil to make people look identical, so people initially mistake that you're using a mirror image spell and don't expect multiple attackers.
*Casting light on an enemy's clothes or weapon so they have trouble hiding.

ericgrau
2010-03-16, 10:54 AM
Too many to remember, but a recent one is the magic items instant fortress + lyre of building. First you deploy your instant fortress and run inside. Then you play the lyre of building to make it immune to damage. Then you start firing from the arrow slits.


Another is getting an otherwise useless burst weapon for Coup de Graces.
EDIT: Ooh ya. Intentionally target different targets in a mirror imaged opponent with a full attack or magic missile so you can destroy them all in 1 round.

Tehnar
2010-03-16, 10:58 AM
If you hit a mirror image by luck shout to your allies which one is the real one, since they don't randomize until the caster moves.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 11:04 AM
If you hit a mirror image by luck shout to your allies which one is the real one, since they don't randomize until the caster moves."Hey guys, the one that just went "poof" wasn't the real mage!" :smallbiggrin:

jiriku
2010-03-16, 11:09 AM
This isn't one of mine, but a clever idea from one of my players. His druid casts healthful rest on himself each day, a 1st-level spell that lasts 24 hours and doubles the amount of healing you get when you rest. With fast wild shape, he can wild shape as a move action, and each time he does so, he heals double the normal amount because of healthful rest. He combines this with a belt of battle for extra move actions and uses his spare move actions or belt-generated move actions to heal himself in combat without sacrificing the standard and swift actions he uses for spellcasting.

Merk
2010-03-16, 11:13 AM
Find a way to get free teleportation each round for at least 61 feet + Find a way to get at-will feather fall (such as the Angel mask from Master of Masks) = you can effectively fly.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 11:18 AM
Using Modify Memory not to fool people, but to deliver secret information directly into an ally's mind. You can also use it to display images and sounds to people, or to communicate across language barriers.

valadil
2010-03-16, 11:26 AM
Here's one that I've never posted or seen posted elsewhere. Not sure if it actually works.

Play a high level mage with crafting ability.
Make a clone. Clone's level is yours minus one.
Craft yourself into oblivion.
Put newly crafted loot under christmas tree near your clone.
Kill self.

You've effectively just spent one level, but gained magical items with an XP cost totaling that of all your levels (at least until you run yourself out of crafting feats).

Depending on what happens when multiple clones are made you could even do this several times, giving loot to the highest level clone. I'm not sure how you'd control which clone gets your soul upon death though and I've heard that weird things happen when two clones activate at once. I'm pretty sure this falls into GM fiat land, so let's just go with the one clone method listed above.

Quirp
2010-03-16, 11:35 AM
Here's one that I've never posted or seen posted elsewhere. Not sure if it actually works.

Play a high level mage with crafting ability.
Make a clone. Clone's level is yours minus one.
Craft yourself into oblivion.
Put newly crafted loot under christmas tree near your clone.
Kill self.

You've effectively just spent one level, but gained magical items with an XP cost totaling that of all your levels (at least until you run yourself out of crafting feats).

Depending on what happens when multiple clones are made you could even do this several times, giving loot to the highest level clone. I'm not sure how you'd control which clone gets your soul upon death though and I've heard that weird things happen when two clones activate at once. I'm pretty sure this falls into GM fiat land, so let's just go with the one clone method listed above.

This doesn´t work since you can´t spend an amount of XP that would cause you to lose a level.
Trick #243: the spell component of Hideous Laughter includes tiny tarts
one spell component pouch = infinite tarts
you never have to worry about trail rations again

Lysander
2010-03-16, 11:49 AM
For a druid, carrying a lump of darkwood. You can use Wood Shape to turn it into any wooden masterwork weapon or armor you like, and change it to a new form whenever you want. Same trick also works with ironwood once you get the spell to make it.

Mauther
2010-03-16, 11:56 AM
Scrolls of Dark Way (Wiz2) are can be excellent one shot kills against large creatures, plus provide good comic relief. My non-combatabt cleric was left facing a raging minotaur barbarian. Fleeing for my life, I pulled a scroll of Dark Way to try and escape across a chasm. I was only halfway across when the mighty minotaur was able to reach me with a charge. Just crunching the numbers before the die roll, it was pretty clear he would probably hit, and if he did the minimum damage would kill me. Then it hit me, asked the DM how much the minotaur weighed (700lbs), asked him to add on any equipment (another 150lbs), he reassured me that wasn't enough weight to slow down the brute. I happily handed the minotaur mini back to him and claimed credit for the kill. Total Minotaur weight 850lbs > 600lbs maximum weight dark way scroll will carry (200 lbs x caster level 3). Since anything exceeding the weight passes through the bridge the minotaur fell hundreds of feet to his death (ala Wiley E Coyote) while I stayed on the still substantial bridge.

Yukitsu
2010-03-16, 11:57 AM
Illusionary air as a permanent image in a place that has air when you're a dread which. It's there forever, and people that see it panic for no discernable reason.

Shape spell, permanent image, flash frost, born of three thunders, snow casting, explosive spell and a lot of time. Random places you can walk into and explode.

valadil
2010-03-16, 12:07 PM
This doesn´t work since you can´t spend an amount of XP that would cause you to lose a level.
Trick #243: the spell component of Hideous Laughter includes tiny tarts
one spell component pouch = infinite tarts
you never have to worry about trail rations again

Keep a pet undead on staff to drain you when you get low?

Glimbur
2010-03-16, 12:08 PM
This isn't one of mine, but a clever idea from one of my players. His druid casts healthful rest on himself each day, a 1st-level spell that lasts 24 hours and doubles the amount of healing you get when you rest. With fast wild shape, he can wild shape as a move action, and each time he does so, he heals double the normal amount because of healthful rest. He combines this with a belt of battle for extra move actions and uses his spare move actions or belt-generated move actions to heal himself in combat without sacrificing the standard and swift actions he uses for spellcasting.

Belt of Battle takes a swift action to activate. That puts a damper on swift-action spells in that round.

I'm fond of using Helping Hand to locate foes that are sniping at you. All you need is a good description of the enemy and the ghostly but visible hand will go next to him and gesture. That lets you target, for example, a Glitterdust.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-16, 12:12 PM
Trick #243: the spell component of Hideous Laughter includes tiny tarts
one spell component pouch = infinite tarts
you never have to worry about trail rations again

Spell Component Pouch

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch. It's great as long as you're casting spells. As soon as you use the components for some other purpose the spell component pouch is allowed to run out. So you get to eat 1 tart. :smallbiggrin:

Lysander
2010-03-16, 12:13 PM
Mastery of Shaping + Antimagic field to create a hollow space in the center of an AMF you can cast spells out of.

Quirp
2010-03-16, 12:21 PM
It's great as long as you're casting spells. As soon as you use the components for some other purpose the spell component pouch is allowed to run out. So you get to eat 1 tart. :smallbiggrin:

...but I took it out to cast a spell and then somehow I totally forgot what I wanted to do.
Another question: Can I bluff the spell component pouch? What´s the DC?

Or, you know, the spell description says that you throw those tarts at the target: Free food for everyone but me:smallfrown:

Animate Object + Permanancy + Wheelchair = Win

Noedig
2010-03-16, 12:22 PM
Casting lighting bolt at creatures in water is exceptionally fun, as my DM likes to add some realism to his games. Target a single creature with it, and you hit everything nearby.

Using physics is also fun. Crunch the numbers for the cubic footage of a fireball and then detonate one in a 5X10 hallway. You can also do the same thing with any AoE spell like gases, conical spells ect.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 12:28 PM
Trick: create a pit trap. Use a creation spell to put a floor on top of it. Dispel the floor when an enemy walks over it. Or for extra points, trick an enemy into dispelling the area themselves by casting an annoying area spell like web around them.

Soonerdj
2010-03-16, 12:29 PM
Bard + 1 level Dip in Mindbender + Perform(Oratory) + (Feat the allows your bardic music to affect people without them knowing its yours).

People hear speeches in their heads. Even more effective if combined with Mindsight fear from LoM.

Critical
2010-03-16, 12:37 PM
Bard + 1 level Dip in Mindbender + Perform(Oratory) + (Feat the allows your bardic music to affect people without them knowing its yours).

People hear speeches in their heads. Even more effective if combined with Mindsight fear from LoM.
This is so awesome. I'm using it in the next campaign I'm playing in.

Master_Rahl22
2010-03-16, 12:37 PM
Get your physics out of my D&D! That's how we get things like the peasant railgun and wall of force/immovable rods that can stop a planet from orbiting the sun.

One of my best clever tricks was kinda metagame. The party rogue kept combing through various books to find cool items he wanted to buy, and then asking if he could buy them at any place we came too, no matter how obscure the item or how small the town. This was pissing off the DM, so in one town he said that yes, there was a master bowmaker who could make enchanted bows. When the guy's character barged in and demanded stuff, the bowmaker told him to get out. He knocked the bowmaker unconscious and grabbed a +1 Longbow. My character went afterward, and to get back at the other guy, the NPC had a secret room where he kept all of the good bows, and I walked out with a +2 Speedy Longbow of Wounding. :smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2010-03-16, 12:40 PM
Win initiative + Benign Transposition = Your party's tank can full attack flatfooted enemy spellcasters in the first round, at least some of the time.

Schylerwalker
2010-03-16, 12:47 PM
This doesn´t work since you can´t spend an amount of XP that would cause you to lose a level.
Trick #243: the spell component of Hideous Laughter includes tiny tarts
one spell component pouch = infinite tarts
you never have to worry about trail rations again

Wouldn't they get stale after a while? :smallconfused:

Curmudgeon
2010-03-16, 12:56 PM
Wouldn't they get stale after a while? :smallconfused:
No, because spell tarts start out stale. :smallwink:

Myou
2010-03-16, 01:01 PM
Mastery of Shaping + Antimagic field to create a hollow space in the center of an AMF you can cast spells out of.

That won't give any protection at all against spells, all it would do is stop anyone in melee rage using magic. Great for nerfing melee, but the danger is other casters, and you can't trap a flying caster in an AMF (because of the falling dynamic), so it's pointless really.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 01:10 PM
That won't give any protection at all against spells, all it would do is stop anyone in melee rage using magic. Great for nerfing melee, but the danger is other casters, and you can't trap a flying caster in an AMF (because of the falling dynamic), so it's pointless really.

It also keeps summoned creatures from approaching you or being summoned right next to you, suppresses nearby magical traps, keeps anyone using magical flight from reaching you if you're flying, and by errata antimagic fields stop spreads from expanding in that direction granting you partial immunity to stuff like fireball.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-16, 01:15 PM
That won't give any protection at all against spells, all it would do is stop anyone in melee rage using magic. Great for nerfing melee
Actually, it doesn't even do much of that. With a reach weapon that spans the Antimagic Field width an attacker can still hit the caster with all their weapon's magical enhancements active. Melee attackers check such things in their own spaces, where there's no Antimagic Field. Ranged attackers check in the target's space, where (with the hole) there's also no Antimagic Field. All you'll do is remove the magic from some melee attackers with some weapons. Check the 10' radius template (page 307 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) to see just how little protection this affords even before you start reducing its area.

FishAreWet
2010-03-16, 01:15 PM
That won't give any protection at all against spells, all it would do is stop anyone in melee rage using magic. Great for nerfing melee, but the danger is other casters, and you can't trap a flying caster in an AMF (because of the falling dynamic), so it's pointless really.Useless? It can ruin martial characters relying on (Su) or Magic Items or something else.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 01:26 PM
The hollow AMF trick isn't perfect. It doesn't protect you from most spells or from magical weapons. And while it stops an adjacent melee fighter's magic buff items and spells from working, it also means you can't target them with spells. There is a lot is can protect you from though. It stops summoned creatures from approaching you and makes it so enemy casters can't create unpleasant effects directly adjacent to you.

Barlen
2010-03-16, 01:32 PM
That won't give any protection at all against spells, all it would do is stop anyone in melee rage using magic. Great for nerfing melee, but the danger is other casters, and you can't trap a flying caster in an AMF (because of the falling dynamic), so it's pointless really.

Arcane archer should be able to put the AMF centered on the flying caster. In that case it should fall with the target.

jiriku
2010-03-16, 01:42 PM
A trick I have employed successfully is to play a githyanki character and use the spell planar bubble on myself to emulate the astral plane. Within the astral plane, all spells can be quickened for free if you wish, so I can cast quickened spells without preparing them beforehand or even knowing the quicken spell feat. Playing githyanki forces you to eat a +2 level adjustment, but it's an alternative to arcane spellsurge for those who don't have it available. Alternately, if you can use leadership to acquire a githyanki cohort, you can cast planar bubble on him and just keep him close by while you play your race of choice.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 01:52 PM
Arcane archer should be able to put the AMF centered on the flying caster. In that case it should fall with the target.

True, but the effect would be stationary, not locked on the flying mage. As soon as they fall a few feet they would be able to fly again.

Tehnar
2010-03-16, 01:56 PM
And it is still questionable if a DM will let you use Mastery of Shaping that way.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 01:59 PM
And it is still questionable if a DM will let you use Mastery of Shaping that way.

rule 0 always applies, but per RAW AMF is an emanation and qualifies for mastery of shaping. I don't really think it's that overpowered though. It's a highly situational kind of trick.

Tehnar
2010-03-16, 02:08 PM
I agree with your assessment. Its just strange for me to exclude the origin and for it still being able to work.

Choco
2010-03-16, 02:12 PM
True, but the effect would be stationary, not locked on the flying mage. As soon as they fall a few feet they would be able to fly again.

Wouldn't the effect be originating from the arrow?

Stick the caster with the arrow, and until he removes it he is going down. :smallamused:

Yukitsu
2010-03-16, 02:18 PM
Wouldn't the effect be originating from the arrow?

Stick the caster with the arrow, and until he removes it he is going down. :smallamused:

Only harpoons work that way. Any other ammunition disintegrates on impact for no real reason.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-16, 02:19 PM
Find a way to get free teleportation each round for at least 61 feet + Find a way to get at-will feather fall (such as the Angel mask from Master of Masks) = you can effectively fly.

See, I love this except... if you have the resources to teleport at-will and feather fall at-will, shouldn't you be able to put those same resources towards, say, flying at-will? Thus allowing you to actually fly?


Only harpoons work that way. Any other ammunition disintegrates on impact for no real reason.

Shrink Item on harpoons... yes. Yes, I do believe that's my next archer build, right there.

I guess this isn't so much a trick as just using a stupid magic item for its intended purpose, but you can store your current XP total in a Thought Bottle for 500XP as a cost, craft a level's worth of XP away, and recover your old XP total (-500) from the bottle. And you don't even need to kill yourself and allow your clone to inherit your life's work. :smallwink:

Simulacrum, not of yourself, but of your hated rival with connections. Imagine the possibilities of having said rival make an idiot of himself to the local Thieves' Guild.

J.Gellert
2010-03-16, 02:22 PM
Hat of Disguise on your mage to make him look heavily armored, and (optional) a second Hat of Disguise on your fighter to make him look like a mage (robes, pointy hat).

Congratulations, the enemy just jumped the tank and let the wizard alone.

Once they figure it out, use Translocation Trick for extra fun.

subject42
2010-03-16, 02:23 PM
Survival pouch. MiC. 3,000 Gp.

If you can't figure out how to abuse an effectively infinite number of donkeys in a dungeon setting, you shouldn't be playing D&D.

Yukitsu
2010-03-16, 02:24 PM
Shrink Item on harpoons... yes. Yes, I do believe that's my next archer build, right there.


Shrunken harpoons still count as "not arrows" for the purpose of bow use and for arcane archer use. Meaning you can't do it without houserules, but frankly, you could also just houserule the way AMF on arrows works.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 02:28 PM
Survival pouch. MiC. 3,000 Gp.

If you can't figure out how to abuse an effectively infinite number of donkeys in a dungeon setting, you shouldn't be playing D&D.Hey, I know a potential use for that! You can pretend you're a commoner to someone with really low Know: Nature!

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-16, 02:38 PM
Shrunken harpoons still count as "not arrows" for the purpose of bow use and for arcane archer use. Meaning you can't do it without houserules, but frankly, you could also just houserule the way AMF on arrows works.

But shrunken harpoons are so much more horrifying than AMF arrows! Because when they strike their target, they grow! GROOOW! There are no rules for the kind of damage that could do to a person!

*deep breath* Apologies, I am having too much fun with stupidity. I believe I'll go resurrect the Bear thread.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-16, 02:43 PM
If you want a useful trick involving an Antimagic Field, here's one:

A Favored Soul at level 17+ flies with wings (nonmagically). So a FS can fly to 10' over some enemy flying magically, cast Antimagic Field, and furl wings. Both will drop at the same rate, maintaining the 10' separation. When the enemy caster goes splat, the FS opens wings and flies away.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 02:47 PM
One of my favorite is using Baleful Utterance (warlock, as shatter spell) to shatter things that would severely impede your enemies. Like say a bad guy is riding away on his horse and you know you can't kill him before he gets away...Baleful Utterance: saddle buckle. Watch him fall off his horse and probably take some damage. Even more amusing to use it on belt buckles, BBEG doesn't look so tough with his pants around his ankles!

ericgrau
2010-03-16, 02:52 PM
A shaped AMF wouldn't do much, because it merely suppresses magical effects. After they pass through the field they continue as active spells to the juicy AMF-free caster in the middle.

How about this: A 1 level dip in a caster class gives you access to wands and staffs of any level, and they have no somatic component so you can use them in armor. Bam, instant gish.

Myou
2010-03-16, 03:16 PM
Useless? It can ruin martial characters relying on (Su) or Magic Items or something else.

No, it really can't, beacuse they can use reach as said, and in any case, you're a caster, you don't seed such silly tricks to negate melee.


The hollow AMF trick isn't perfect. It doesn't protect you from most spells or from magical weapons. And while it stops an adjacent melee fighter's magic buff items and spells from working, it also means you can't target them with spells. There is a lot is can protect you from though. It stops summoned creatures from approaching you and makes it so enemy casters can't create unpleasant effects directly adjacent to you.

Errr.... They create the effects right on top of you instead. And summons can't approach, but that's ok, because they can just summon one of the many creatures with ranged attacks/special abilities/reach.

A shaped AMF is virtually worthless on it's own. All you get is the ability to screw melee slightly more.


Shrunken harpoons still count as "not arrows" for the purpose of bow use and for arcane archer use. Meaning you can't do it without houserules, but frankly, you could also just houserule the way AMF on arrows works.

Yeah, as far as I know you can't fire AMFs that way at all by RAW.

Although there is antimagic cone.


If you want a useful trick involving an Antimagic Field, here's one:

A Favored Soul at level 17+ flies with wings (nonmagically). So a FS can fly to 10' over some enemy flying magically, cast Antimagic Field, and furl wings. Both will drop at the same rate, maintaining the 10' separation. When the enemy caster goes splat, the FS opens wings and flies away.

By RAW they would probably fall one after another I think. But by RAI certainly, assuming similar composition and surface area to weight ratios, they fall together. But you can't then reopen your wings before your turn - you'll have to take falling damage too. Unless you use Celerity or something like that. But then afterwards the mage can just move away next turn anyway.

That raises an interesting question - can you take an AoO after falling like that and before your next turn? I'd rule no.

Godskook
2010-03-16, 03:20 PM
By RAW they would probably fall one after another I think. But by RAI certainly, assuming similar composition and surface area to weight ratios, they fall together. But you can't then reopen your wings before your turn - you'll have to take falling damage too. Unless you use Celerity or something like that. But then afterwards the mage can just move away next turn anyway.

Readied actions

Myou
2010-03-16, 03:27 PM
Readied actions

Well, if all you've done that round is a move action, sure, but that's a terrible strategy, better to make attacks and just take a little falling damage, or cast feather fall just before you land. Unless you're so high up that you think falling damage will kill the caster outright. But that's going to be very rare indeed.

Zenos
2010-03-16, 04:25 PM
Minor image+good bluff check+speaks draconic as a bard to fool a white dragon into believing I had summoned a huge fire elemental and promptly wasting its breath weapon entirely on the illusion.

Sir Giacomo
2010-03-16, 05:45 PM
Using Modify Memory not to fool people, but to deliver secret information directly into an ally's mind. You can also use it to display images and sounds to people, or to communicate across language barriers.

Actually one of the best uses of the modify memory spell is to recall everything with perfect clarity for the bard/caster ("the secret documents of the king? Wait a second...they were exactly like this...")

- Giacomo

Flickerdart
2010-03-16, 05:57 PM
Actually one of the best uses of the modify memory spell is to recall everything with perfect clarity for the bard/caster ("the secret documents of the king? Wait a second...they were exactly like this...")

- Giacomo
Autohypnosis can do that with a comparatively smaller investment, considering that it can actually do useful things besides.

FishAreWet
2010-03-16, 06:07 PM
No, it really can't, beacuse they can use reach as said, and in any case, you're a caster, you don't seed such silly tricks to negate melee.Please learn the difference between 'can' and 'always'

Lysander
2010-03-16, 06:24 PM
Autohypnosis can do that with a comparatively smaller investment, considering that it can actually do useful things besides.

I think being able to "flashy thing" people Men In Black style is pretty useful, everything else aside.

Barlen
2010-03-16, 07:11 PM
Wouldn't the effect be originating from the arrow?

Stick the caster with the arrow, and until he removes it he is going down.

Arcane archer gets an ability (at the second level of the PrC) called Imbue arrow that allows you imbue the arrow with a spell:


Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Now what is not explicitly stated is if the arrow hits an enemy does the spell center on the target or the point in space where the target currently is. If it centers on the target than a spell that normally emanates from the caster would now emanate from the target.

AMF emanates from the caster (normally) and moves with him. If it now emanates from the target it moves with (and FALLS with) the _previously_ flying mage. :smallbiggrin:

Note: Granted setting up a build to do this is going to be sloppy. You would probably loose 4 or 5 caster levels in the process. Something like Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Eldritch knight 9/Arcane Archer 2 and ECL 15 minimum to imbue an arrow with a 6th level spell like AMF.

Flickerdart
2010-03-16, 07:34 PM
Why so complicated? A Wizard 12/Arcane Archer 2 can pull it off a whole level before your complicated build, even earlier if you add in sexy Abjurant Champion and less sexy Ruathar levels. You only lose 2 caster levels, so even as a Sorcerer you could get 9th level spells. A Bard/Sublime Chord entry could work too, though it doesn't complete the combo with AMF until a bit later.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-16, 07:37 PM
You can get infinite XP for the purposes of crafting (core only).

I submit for your consideration the following:

1 - Have on hand, A.) a source of negative levels, and B.) a source of restoration spells. Summoned minions will work just fine for this.

2 - Craft, craft, craft. Drain your XP reserves as far as they'll go. Make yourself at the exact XP total you should be for your level. If you have dedicated wrights you can speed the process up because you can have them working on multiple items simultaneously.

3 - Pull in a vampire or something to drain you with exactly 1 negative level. Wait 24 hours and intentionally fail your Fortitude save. This will put your XP total at halfway between your previous level and your current level.

4 - Repeat step 2.

5 - Get a restoration. This'll put you back up to where you were before you got level drained.

6 - Repeat steps 1-5.

7 - *PROPHET!




*Hydrophobia and its effects on certain major waterways you encounter is appreciated, but not required, despite what some major religions may claim.

Tehnar
2010-03-16, 07:45 PM
STEP 0: Invest in real life evasion and reflex saves. Those DMGs pack quite a punch.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-16, 07:45 PM
*Amazing Plan Here*



One flaw, when it comes to magic items, only one wright at a time. However if you're high enough level to be attempting this, then just dump yer little buddy on a plane with a fast time progression and have everything done by supper time.

Splendor
2010-03-16, 07:48 PM
1) Sundering spell component pouches, how many of your spell rely on components.
2) Dual Everburning torches, First one counters darkness spells, second one still lights up the area.
3) Tanglefoot Bolts (DR 349): If you can't move you don't get a reflex save.
4) Exploding Bolt (DR 348) explodes in 5' radius for 2d12 damage, exotic weapon but I just take the -4 to hit (easy to hit a 5' area)
5) Mord's Buzzing Bee: Have fun with your -10 to concentration checks
6) Alterself Tren: +8 Natural armor at 3rd level.
7) Net followed by bola
8) Silenced Harpoon
9) A standard with a symbol of spell loss on it.
10) Adding Nystul's aura to magical traps: You can make magical traps not detect as magic for just an additional 500gp.
11) Rogue tumbling into opponents square (DC 25) to deny then their Dex bonus to AC to sneak attack them, and then using spring attack to end their movement in another square (can't end movement in another square).
12) Stealing items off bad guys (wands, sheathed weapon) while invisible. Yes we ruled it breaks invisibility but now I got his moderate glowing wand off him and he can't use it in the fight.
13) Sleep-Smoke bombs (Waterdeep pg 152)
14) Oh and Shatter everything. Belt buckles, armor straps, single planks of the draw bridge, keystone on a bridge....

Kelunas
2010-03-16, 07:52 PM
One of my players built a sorcerer who uses Force Ladder (Spell Compendium) constantly.

Uses he has come up with:
- Place horizontaly in front of a closed door to barricade it
- Placed it flat on the ground to create difficult terrain
- Placed standing in an archway to jam a portcullis / door and prevent it from shutting
- Improvised bridge (the ooze wasn't happy trying to cross)
- Standing on it's side to create a fence
- Create monkey bars to cross a pit
- Multiple castings to create a small prison cell or portcullis in a 5 ft wide hallway
- Oh, a ladder

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-16, 08:01 PM
One of my players built a sorcerer who uses Force Ladder (Spell Compendium) constantly.

Uses he has come up with:
- Place horizontaly in front of a closed door to barricade it
- Placed it flat on the ground to create difficult terrain
- Placed standing in an archway to jam a portcullis / door and prevent it from shutting
- Improvised bridge (the ooze wasn't happy trying to cross)
- Standing on it's side to create a fence
- Create monkey bars to cross a pit
- Multiple castings to create a small prison cell or portcullis in a 5 ft wide hallway
- Oh, a ladder

Hmm... Now to find some way to chain spell Force Ladder :smallamused:

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-16, 08:54 PM
Mount: invalidates the party rogue as far as the role of 'trapfinder' goes.

Toss your Deck of Many Things into your Heward's Handy Haversack. Remember the text in the latter's description that says that the item you want is always on top? Think about this one for a second...

Dust of Sneezing and Choking: No saving throw? No SR? No defense of any kind? No problem...assuming it's you using it on them, anyway.

Dust of Disappearance: greater invisibility that can't be penetrated, even by true seeing? Daddy likes.

Weapons with the Manifesting property grant you +5 pp, renew themselves each day (acting like 5 pp cognizance crystals), and cost +16,000 gp. You can add this property to 50 arrows for the same price, get 50x the benefit, and can draw them as a free action.

Animate objects with a bag of caltrops can do quite well considering they follow your commands and foil groundbound opponents.

A bullseye lantern does wonderful things when combined with pyrotechnics.

You can get an Int score of 49 at level 20 as a wizard, with no more than an 8 starting Int (and actually be playable the whole time, if somewhat underpowered (for a wizard) mid-levels. 8 (starting) + 3 (age) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tome) + 6 (tome) + 22 (polymorph any object into a sarruhk).

Khatoblepas
2010-03-16, 08:56 PM
10) Adding Nystul's aura to magical traps: You can make magical traps not detect as magic for just an additional 500gp.


Kobold's Addendum: Adding Nystul's Magic Aura to NONmagical traps. Make nonmagical traps appear to be magical, so the overzealous wizard dispels them before the rogue has a chance to intercede...

... setting off the high CL Explosive Runes you cast when wielding the +CL items the dragon you're guarding has, in turn destroying the seal stopping gallons and gallons of water you made into acid with Transmute Water to Acid.

Spend a day casting Invisible Fell Drain Uttercold Fire Shruiken. Give to the Scout. Watch his little face light up as he realises he can effectively cast Enervation while doing his damage thing.

Take Snowcasting and Energy Sub (Fire), Create a Fireblood Ooze (MM4), put it under a (fire retardant) oak tree, and command it to stay there. Create an Acorn of Far Travel keyed to that oak tree, and now all your spells have the fire subtype and are maximised. Combine with the above to have a maximised Fire Shruiken.

Rauthiss
2010-03-16, 08:58 PM
Not a "trick", persay, but I'm a huge fan of putting a wand of Launch Bolt into a rapier with a wand compartment (Dungeonscape, IIRC). You now have a gunblade. :3

Savannah
2010-03-16, 09:34 PM
*Casting light on an enemy's clothes or weapon so they have trouble hiding.

One time my party was in a dark cave with a huge lake and all sorts of nasty, rushing rivers. To make matters worse, there was a black dragon who would swim underwater and pop out to ambush us. Or at least he did until the wizard tagged his nose with light.


Hat of Disguise on your mage to make him look heavily armored, and (optional) a second Hat of Disguise on your fighter to make him look like a mage (robes, pointy hat).

Congratulations, the enemy just jumped the tank and let the wizard alone.

Once they figure it out, use Translocation Trick for extra fun.

I'm doing that as soon as we have enough money. (My DM's gonna hate me....)

Lysander
2010-03-16, 09:42 PM
Give a ring of friend shield to a dominated monster with fast healing and order it to activate it. Congrats, you now have a permanent 50% off damage shield.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-16, 09:55 PM
I'm looking forward to using this one once my wizard gains two more levels:

Permanent Image on a soarwood log (from Eberron: negative weight, so it floats in place if you add the correct mass in normal matter) of yourself. Combine with invisible spell: the enemy now think that your illusion is doing all the casting. If they attack it, congratulations, they just got planeshifted to the Naruto manga.

Additionally, adding the repeating property to a ballista can be downright devastating (especially if you're defending something).

Lastly, and I'm still not sure if this could work: to prevent dominated minions that have their enchantments dispelled from attacking you, conduct surgery to place a small needle on the edge of their brain supported by a permanent cantrip such that any magic powerful enough to dispel their domination will result in the needle driving into their brain (causing death or severe damage). This makes sense in real life but could be rather difficult to execute in RAW. Any thoughts?

Jack Zander
2010-03-16, 10:17 PM
Worried about that BBEG getting a resurrection?

Flesh to Stone
Transmute Rock to Mud
Purify Food and Water to remove the dirt from the mud
drink the water/pour it into the ocean

Or maybe you are the BBEG and you're a lich who wants a good hiding spot for your phylactery. This is called the Rumpelstiltskin:

Put your Phylactery in a digestion-proof coffin
Find a Purple Worm
Name him Rumpelstiltskin (or whatever)
Let him "swallow whole" your coffin
Cast Imprisonment on him
Tell not a single soul about what you just did
To get to the phylactery, someone must cast Freedom, but first they have to have the name of the creature they are freeing from Imprisonment. Good luck with that one.

Level two kill spell with no save:
Arcane Lock: target someone's "chest" with it.

Beorn080
2010-03-16, 11:26 PM
Portable holes. Assuming you have a 6 foot diameter place to put it, all sorts of nasty tricks you can pull.

Standard spiked pit.

Reverse gravity spiked pit. (Place on ceiling, cast reverse gravity under it, mobs hit spikes. Put one under that pit too, and they'll fall into that one.)

Portable house via Marvelous Pigments

Dwarf Fortress style pit of butchery with repeated use of pigments to create a 1000 foot drop.

Decanter of Endless Water storage device. Simply throw any spare decanters in, set to geyser, and close it up. Assuming each decanter takes up a cubic foot, and given that the hole has 282 cubic feet, that's about 1300 gallons a second of water, pumping out any time you open the hole. Apply sovereign glue, and you've got a portable flood.

Manage to get a Sphere of Annihilation in there? Congrats, you can now drain the entire ocean in about a week. Lots of sunken treasure I bet.

I'm sure there are other uses.

ericgrau
2010-03-16, 11:40 PM
Those water based tricks would be failures in geometry. Decanters of endless water, even several of them, would be lucky to flood a small house... and even then not before the occupants notice and casually walk outside. I cannot see your tiny ocean drainer from space, how fast do you really expect it to be? Next time figure out the flow rate of the decanters, the volume you're trying to fill and see how long it really takes. Ditto for draining something. Assuming 1 mile depth: A(2gh)^0.5 = 558 m^3/s. Volume of ocean = 354,700,000 km^3 = 3.547*10^14 m^3. 3.547*10^14 m^3 / 558 / 3600 / 24 / 365 = 20,000 years. This is the real reason why you shouldn't mix D&D and science: nobody has any idea what they're doing.

Evard
2010-03-17, 12:02 AM
Cleric + create water + container from high place + DM that allows physics in his/her game = awesome damage :D

2gallons/level of water

2 gallon of water = 16lbs
Objects fall at 9.8m/s^2

Water skins (5 gallon size) + create water + hang glider (or some way of flying) = lots of damage with a level 0 spell :D

Myou
2010-03-17, 02:02 AM
Please learn the difference between 'can' and 'always'

No need to be so touchy or condescending. :smallsigh:
Most melee characters will carry a reach weapon, and those that don't are fools.

senrath
2010-03-17, 02:21 AM
I'm a big fan of Launch Bolt + Gargantuan Bolts. Sure, the bolts themselves are a pain to lug around without magical help, but if I'm remembering correctly, that's 6d6 points of damage off of a Cantrip.

Doc Roc
2010-03-17, 02:34 AM
I'm pretty proud of my Elly build, still. And there's the triple nines build. And Algernon. What kind of tricks are we talking here? I'm unclear.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-17, 02:53 AM
Cleric + create water + container from high place + DM that allows physics in his/her game = awesome damage :D
Actually, it's not physics that matters; it's the rules.

You've still got to hit. If the object is small enough for you to aim, you make a standard ranged attack roll, with improvised weapon (-4) and range increment penalties (-2/10' dropped, maximum 50'). If it's too big it's unaimed: same penalties, but the target square is fixed and you have to hit AC 5 to drop it there, and the target gets to make a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid all damage (rules in Heroes of Battle).

The falling object damage is given in the back of Complete Warrior.

Dexam
2010-03-17, 03:56 AM
1) 14) Oh and Shatter everything. Belt buckles, armor straps, single planks of the draw bridge, keystone on a bridge....
...Spell component pouches, Divine foci...


Solid Fog, Legion of Sentinels, and the Invisible Spell metamagic feat. Throw in Slow and/or Widen metamagic the Fog and Legion to make the fun last even longer. Flavour with some sort of taunt, challenge or other effect to force targets to walk towards you through the invisible meat-grinder.

A good trick against against (multiple) Big Dumb Fighter types with no ranged attacks: Slow (prevents full-round actions) plus Shadow Binding (entagles, immobilises, requires a full-round action to break free) equals stuck for the duration of the spells... finish them off with ranged attacks at your leisure. Any entangling effect combined with Slow works nicely, but I like Shadow Binding because it immobilises them as well.

SethFahad
2010-03-17, 03:56 AM
Talking about physics, throw alot of flour or powdered sugar in the air, and all you need to do next is ignite or spark. KaBoOoOoOoM!!! :smallbiggrin:

Tehnar
2010-03-17, 04:00 AM
Maybe we should stick to tricks that most DMs won't bat an eye at. Or at least add a warning to those that might be questionable.


Also I doubt you can pull of any serious trap disarming with a mount/donkeys/celestial monkeys. That is you are playing right into the trap makers ploy.

Traps in long empty hallways should be designed to delay, not to kill. Traps in a combat encounter however are much more deadly.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-17, 09:38 AM
There's been a lot of dubious advice here, mostly because of poor understanding or ignorance of the rules. Here are some examples from just one post:

1) Sundering spell component pouches, how many of your spell rely on components.
Good tactic. But remember the sunderer has to first succeed on a Spot check to see that fine object (DC 20 if within 10'; penalties both for range and distraction), and if they don't make the check when they first have line of sight they'll need to use a move action every subsequent check:
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

3) Tanglefoot Bolts (DR 349): If you can't move you don't get a reflex save. Absolutely wrong. The only condition that prevents you from taking Reflex saves is death.

11) Rogue tumbling into opponents square (DC 25) to deny then their Dex bonus to AC to sneak attack them, and then using spring attack to end their movement in another square (can't end movement in another square). Wrong here too. Simply passing through another character's square doesn't deny them their DEX bonus to AC, nor does a DC 25 Tumble check. Maybe you're thinking of something else.

14) Oh and Shatter everything. Belt buckles, armor straps, single planks of the draw bridge, keystone on a bridge....
Entirely dependent on how your DM defines the word "solid". Until modern times the "neither liquid nor gas" chemical definition wasn't in use, so "rigid, not flexible" is much more likely. Plus you can't target a portion of an object in D&D, which lacks hit locations. Thus no straps, single planks, keystones*, & c.

* - I'm assuming a mortared structure here for the "portion of an object" exclusion. Otherwise the tactic is OK, except most unmortared structural stones weigh hundreds of pounds, and Shatter is limited to 10 lbs./level.

subject42
2010-03-17, 10:09 AM
Also I doubt you can pull of any serious trap disarming with a mount/donkeys/celestial monkeys. That is you are playing right into the trap makers ploy.

Never under estimate the amount of cover and concealment a donkey can provide.

The Random NPC
2010-03-17, 11:21 AM
Rolling boulder trap plus spiked pit trap. If you are running or moving recklessly, you don't get a reflex save, and then you're crushed by the boulder.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-17, 11:25 AM
Never under estimate the amount of cover and concealment a donkey can provide from the inside.

Oh hai I fixed this 4u ^_^

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-17, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't imagine you'd get a Reflex save if you're tied up/unconscious/paralyzed, either.

Brendan
2010-03-17, 11:53 AM
2 hide optimized shadowdancers hiding behind eachother's shadows.

Gametime
2010-03-17, 11:55 AM
No need to be so touchy or condescending.
Most melee characters will carry a reach weapon, and those that don't are fools.

I lol'd. :smalltongue:

Myou
2010-03-17, 11:58 AM
I lol'd. :smalltongue:

What? It's foolish for a melee character not to carry a reach weapon. That's not condescending, it's just true. Even a basic, nonmagical reach weapon could save your life, and it'll cost, what, 10 gold?

unre9istered
2010-03-17, 12:04 PM
What? It's foolish for a melee character not to carry a reach weapon. That's not condescending, it's just true. Even a basic, nonmagical reach weapon could save your life, and it'll cost, what, 10 gold?

If you're not built for it a reach weapon's usefulness will be negligible and not worth the action spent to draw your primary weapon when the enemies close. Some builds(mostly agile types) don't have the encumbrance necessary to carry the extra weight either.

Gametime
2010-03-17, 12:20 PM
What? It's foolish for a melee character not to carry a reach weapon. That's not condescending, it's just true. Even a basic, nonmagical reach weapon could save your life, and it'll cost, what, 10 gold?

You can be right and still be condescending. I agree with you that even melee character should carry a reach weapon (and a ranged weapon, and a hidden weapon, and so on). It's true that it is an excellent idea.

But calling someone (or a vast group of someones) a fool for not doing something that may not be immediately obvious is still condescending.

I'm not offended by it or anything - I just thought it was amusing.

Myou
2010-03-17, 12:38 PM
You can be right and still be condescending. I agree with you that even melee character should carry a reach weapon (and a ranged weapon, and a hidden weapon, and so on). It's true that it is an excellent idea.

But calling someone (or a vast group of someones) a fool for not doing something that may not be immediately obvious is still condescending.

I'm not offended by it or anything - I just thought it was amusing.

I wasn't calling the person a fool, I was reminding him that only foolish melee characters go without a reach weapon. Characters not people. Maybe you just follow a very broad definition of the term.


If you're not built for it a reach weapon's usefulness will be negligible and not worth the action spent to draw your primary weapon when the enemies close. Some builds(mostly agile types) don't have the encumbrance necessary to carry the extra weight either.

Until you find a situation where you need reach. Also, such a character would get a bag of holding, if carrying capacity were really an issue.
You could always make it an aptitude weapon if you want to apply all your feats.

druid91
2010-03-17, 12:43 PM
As for the water based tricks there is a spell called flash-flood in sand storm, there is also a spell called destroy water, do that under a boat and watch as your enemies fall int the ocean.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-17, 12:45 PM
Rolling boulder trap plus spiked pit trap. If you are running or moving recklessly, you don't get a reflex save, and then you're crushed by the boulder.

I wouldn't imagine you'd get a Reflex save if you're tied up/unconscious/paralyzed, either.
I see we've got a pervasive failure of imagination here. You get to make Reflex saving throws in all of these situations.

Greenish
2010-03-17, 12:51 PM
As for the water based tricks there is a spell called flash-flood in sand storm, there is also a spell called destroy water, do that under a boat and watch as your enemies fall int the ocean.There's also Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ControlWater.htm): you can make a pit or a hill into an ocean. Very handy for ship-to-ship combat, I'd imagine.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-17, 12:58 PM
There's also Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ControlWater.htm): you can make a pit or a hill into an ocean. Very handy for ship-to-ship combat, I'd imagine.

I don't understand why it's called ship to ship combat actually. It might as well be X party wizard vs Y party wizard at sea. And at high levels, there is no need for a boat. Who actually needs solid land to fight?

The Random NPC
2010-03-17, 12:58 PM
Not according to page 69 of the DMG, it states that a character gets a DC 20 reflex to avoid falling into a covered pit trap, unless that character is running or moving recklessly at the time.

Edit: I did forget to mention the covered part in my previous post though.

Now I feel like a hypocrite.

Ormagoden
2010-03-17, 01:04 PM
I don't understand why it's called ship to ship combat actually. It might as well be X party wizard vs Y party wizard at sea. And at high levels, there is no need for a boat. Who actually needs solid land to fight?

The guy who gets dispelled needs solid land to fight.

but onto the topic at hand!

Shrink item on
Small structures (who needs a tent when you have a shed)
Boulders
Expensive art
Statues
Trade goods
Barrels (water, ale)
Cart
10x10 cubes of metal or stone to block doors.

and awkward equipment like

Battering rams
200ft of rope
Pavilion tents
Cages
extra masterwork weapons for the party

Ect, ect, ect...

Also using open lock to relock a door a low intelligence monster won't be able to open or smash so we can rest. "shut the door"

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-17, 01:10 PM
The guy who gets dispelled needs solid land to fight.


So you cast fly, he dispels, you cast fly, me might succeed on his dispel check... even if successful dispels all of your fly's, it just becomes a competition of who has more spell slots.

jiriku
2010-03-17, 01:11 PM
Clever trick:

Permanent Symbols
Symbol spells are generally considered suboptimal because they involve an expensive material component. Symbols can be made permanent with the permanency spell, but people often hesitate to do so because a dispel magic can destroy the effect permanently.

A red wizard, or any character capable of circle magic, can take a day of downtime to repeatedly perform circle magic and charge up hit caster level with a whole bunch of bonus caster levels, then create a permanent symbol. If you increase your caster level to 30, the DC to dispel your symbol is 41, which is beyond the maximum possible roll for a greater dispel magic. Barring specialized dispel-focused caster builds, enemies can't dispel your symbol. At caster level 35, even reaving dispel can't dispel your symbol, and the specialized dispellers are facing an even steeper hill to climb.

As an added benefit, excess bonii from circle magic can be used to heighten the symbol, increasing its save DC.

Also, sudden metamagic feats are especially effective on spells that you get to use again and again. A sudden maximized permanent symbol of weakness is a potent debuff.


Fell Moilian magic
The fell metamagic feats from Libris Mortis cause your spells to inflict an extra debuff, but only if they deal damage. Black Lore of Moil (CA) is a +0 metamagic feat that causes a necromancy spell to deal damage, even on a successful save. The two can be combined on necromantic debuffs that don't normally deal damage to produce super-debuffers. For example, a fell weakening moilian ray of enfeeblement degrades strength by an additional 4 points, while a fell frightening moilian fear stacks another level of fear (so the enemy is frightened for one round even on a successful save).

Soonerdj
2010-03-17, 01:32 PM
Clever trick:
Fell Moilian magic
The fell metamagic feats from Libris Mortis cause your spells to inflict an extra debuff, but only if they deal damage. Black Lore of Moil (CA) is a +0 metamagic feat that causes a necromancy spell to deal damage, even on a successful save. The two can be combined on necromantic debuffs that don't normally deal damage to produce super-debuffers. For example, a fell weakening moilian ray of enfeeblement degrades strength by an additional 4 points, while a fell frightening moilian fear stacks another level of fear (so the enemy is frightened for one round even on a successful save).

Where are these? I have much use for a +0 Metamagic that lets me increase the level of fear.

Also why use alarm when Bells are 1gp and in the SRD? Just hang them on doors to announce when they are opened. This works even when they are picked.

unre9istered
2010-03-17, 01:45 PM
Until you find a situation where you need reach. Also, such a character would get a bag of holding, if carrying capacity were really an issue.
You could always make it an aptitude weapon if you want to apply all your feats.

I can't think of a situation where I would need reach that either a ranged weapon (can't get to the enemy) or a 5' step (or move action in the case of difficult terrain) wouldn't work. Okay that's not quite true but the circumstances I can think of or so contrived that the 8K spent on an aptitude weapon wouldn't be worth it. Keeping one (masterwork or magical, if you've found one) in a bag of holding is admittedly a good idea, if only because it can be used as a long pole as well as a (emergency backup) weapon.

ericgrau
2010-03-17, 01:48 PM
I wasn't calling the person a fool, I was reminding him that only foolish melee characters go without a reach weapon. Characters not people. Maybe you just follow a very broad definition of the term.



Until you find a situation where you need reach. Also, such a character would get a bag of holding, if carrying capacity were really an issue.
You could always make it an aptitude weapon if you want to apply all your feats.
Then it seems you haven't played such a class before, or else haven't calculated weight on one. Bags of holding are heavy. Add on armor and a heavy weapon and you're already pushing if not exceeding the light load of a poor strength.

On the matter of the shrink items above, I love that spell. One trick I used is to shrink 1 item on day one, shrink another on day 2, etc., etc. up to caster level days. After the last day I repeat on item 1 as its duration expires. So now I can always carry my caster level in shrunken items, at the cost of only 1 spell slot. Great for grabbing every huge utility item in the Player's Handbook, or anything else you can think of. The kinds of things even your extra-dimensional storage might not be able to contain.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-17, 01:49 PM
If you increase your caster level to 30, the DC to dispel your symbol is 41, which is beyond the maximum possible roll for a greater dispel magic. Barring specialized dispel-focused caster builds, enemies can't dispel your symbol.
Don't be too sure about that. A Cleric with the Inquisition domain gets +4 to dispel checks -- after the capped caster level part of the formula. And this is one of the easier domains to get as a bonus, because 1 level of Church Inquisitor grants it.

ericgrau
2010-03-17, 01:49 PM
But nobody suspects the Inquisition...

Fitz10019
2010-03-17, 01:57 PM
Dire badgers leave a 5 foot diameter usable tunnel when they burrow. Summon one to dig you a very defensible and easily concealable campsite in the nearest convenient hill.

unre9istered
2010-03-17, 01:59 PM
Dire badgers leave a 5 foot diameter usable tunnel when they burrow. Summon one to dig you a very defensible and easily concealable campsite in the nearest convenient hill.

I'm totally suggesting this in my game this weekend.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-17, 03:43 PM
Statement RE: shrink item use


Is it possable to shrink down a wagon? say one that was 10 by 15 feet? maybe bigger?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-17, 04:00 PM
I can't think of a situation where I would need reach that either a ranged weapon (can't get to the enemy) or a 5' step (or move action in the case of difficult terrain) wouldn't work. Okay that's not quite true but the circumstances I can think of or so contrived that the 8K spent on an aptitude weapon wouldn't be worth it. Keeping one (masterwork or magical, if you've found one) in a bag of holding is admittedly a good idea, if only because it can be used as a long pole as well as a (emergency backup) weapon.You never make attacks of opportunity in your game, or make trip attacks, or sunders, or disarms? All of those provoke AoOs (which can't be made if you can't reach the provoker).

jiriku
2010-03-17, 04:54 PM
Don't be too sure about that. A Cleric with the Inquisition domain gets +4 to dispel checks -- after the capped caster level part of the formula. And this is one of the easier domains to get as a bonus, because 1 level of Church Inquisitor grants it.

A cleric with the inquisition domain, and even more so a character who is dipping one level of cleric simply to pick up the inquisition domain, is what I would characterize as a "specialized dispel-focused caster build".


Where are these? I have much use for a +0 Metamagic that lets me increase the level of fear.

Also why use alarm when Bells are 1gp and in the SRD? Just hang them on doors to announce when they are opened. This works even when they are picked.

Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, Fell Drain, Fell Animate: Libris Mortis.
Black Lore of Moil: Complete Arcane.

Fell Animate is not useful for this purpose. Fell Drain is, but at +3 it is costly. Fell Frighten and Fell Weaken are both +1 metamagics, however, and are excellent debuffers. Black Lore of Moil is +0, but adds an expensive material component. However, it costs you just 25g to add damage to the spell in order to qualify it for one of the Fell metamagics.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-17, 05:47 PM
A cleric with the inquisition domain, and even more so a character who is dipping one level of cleric simply to pick up the inquisition domain, is what I would characterize as a "specialized dispel-focused caster build".
Who mentioned dipping Cleric for this? More likely it's just some regular Cleric picking domains from their deity's portfolio; Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and Wee Jas all offer Inquisition. That's not very specialized.

Beorn080
2010-03-17, 06:19 PM
Those water based tricks would be failures in geometry. Decanters of endless water, even several of them, would be lucky to flood a small house... and even then not before the occupants notice and casually walk outside. I cannot see your tiny ocean drainer from space, how fast do you really expect it to be? Next time figure out the flow rate of the decanters, the volume you're trying to fill and see how long it really takes. Ditto for draining something. Assuming 1 mile depth: A(2gh)^0.5 = 558 m^3/s. Volume of ocean = 354,700,000 km^3 = 3.547*10^14 m^3. 3.547*10^14 m^3 / 558 / 3600 / 24 / 365 = 20,000 years. This is the real reason why you shouldn't mix D&D and science: nobody has any idea what they're doing.

Granted on the sphere, still a nifty trick for lakes and such.

As for the flood, from the srd One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons. At about 1300 gallons a second, that's 7800 gallons a round btw, 162 cubic feet a second, 972 cubic feet a round. Granted, that isn't instant flood levels, assuming your DM doesn't allow the portable hole to constantly pressurize while the decanters are in there, which is reasonable. However, That is a full 10x10x10 cube, or equivalent, every round. Also, that is 30 tons of water being pumped out every round, meaning that pretty much nothing is getting close to it. Seems pretty good for getting around most things, or creating significant problems almost anywhere.

Malificus
2010-03-17, 06:27 PM
planet orbiting the sun.


Get your physics out of my D&D!

Godskook
2010-03-17, 06:41 PM
Here's one I just was thinking about:

Keep bags of holding inside each other for additional space at no extra weight. At higher levels, store them all inside your handy haversack, and ignore the 5lbs that those 3 tons/level of vendor trash actually encumber your character with.

ryzouken
2010-03-17, 07:01 PM
As far as clever tricks go, I find they're born of necessity more often than not.
Case in point:

Recently we had an epic level encounter where a beholder was projecting a bubble that blocked line of sight into it (everything in the bubble was invisible and protected from divinations, true sight inclusive) but if you walked in the bubble, you could see just fine. Kind of like a camouflage sphere.

My character, not wanting to get in the bubble to subject himself to the beholder's attacks (the bubble blocks los both directions) hung around outside till I got the brilliant idea of inserting the end of my spyglass into the bubble and looking through it to gain los. That stupid spyglass I'd carried around for 15 levels as an rp item ended up saving the day, creating a window for me to see through to fire my rays.

the humble spyglass: well worth 1k gp.

Harperfan7
2010-03-17, 07:45 PM
Wizards laying prone when casting/shooting crossbows.

Not clever, just commonly overlooked.

FMArthur
2010-03-17, 07:58 PM
Use Obscuring Mist on a group of organized humanoids and then use your Hat of Disguise to catch every one of them off-guard inside.

ericgrau
2010-03-17, 08:10 PM
Is it possable to shrink down a wagon? say one that was 10 by 15 feet? maybe bigger?



Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level


Wood is about 40 lbs. per cubic foot, so you're looking at about 80 pounds per caster level. The SRD wagon is a 400 lb. wagon pulled by 2 horses, so I'd guess it's about 7-8'x12'. The wagon you want is probably do-able, depending on whether the spell means volume of material or a box surrounding the wagon. If it means a box surrounding the wagon, that's a lot less as a 2'x1'x1' box isn't that big.


Granted on the sphere, still a nifty trick for lakes and such.

As for the flood, from the srd One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons. At about 1300 gallons a second, that's 7800 gallons a round btw, 162 cubic feet a second, 972 cubic feet a round. Granted, that isn't instant flood levels, assuming your DM doesn't allow the portable hole to constantly pressurize while the decanters are in there, which is reasonable. However, That is a full 10x10x10 cube, or equivalent, every round. Also, that is 30 tons of water being pumped out every round, meaning that pretty much nothing is getting close to it. Seems pretty good for getting around most things, or creating significant problems almost anywhere.
A decanter of endless water is 30 gallons per round which equals 5 gallons per second. 260 for 1300 gallons per second cost 2,340,000 gp. A portable hole is 6'x10' deep, letting you fill less than 6'x6'x10' after it empties, and then from there it's whatever the decanters can do.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-17, 08:11 PM
Wizards laying prone when casting/shooting crossbows.

Not clever, just commonly overlooked.

I wouldn't allow it outside, no LoS/E if there is any terrain at all. If it's indoors, then sure.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-17, 08:34 PM
I wouldn't allow it outside, no LoS/E if there is any terrain at all. If it's indoors, then sure.That depends on the terrain and the wizard's placement as to whether he can shoot or not. If he's in a bare-limbed tree? Sure. On a building? Sure. On a rise or the bank of a river looking in? Sure. On a city street firing elsewhere on the street? Sure. On hard-baked dirt in the middle of a flat, empty desert? Sure.

In the middle of the savanna with 8' tall grass? Not so much.

Tohron
2010-03-17, 08:49 PM
You can get an Int score of 49 at level 20 as a wizard, with no more than an 8 starting Int (and actually be playable the whole time, if somewhat underpowered (for a wizard) mid-levels. 8 (starting) + 3 (age) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tome) + 6 (tome) + 22 (polymorph any object into a sarruhk).

Well, technically you can get an Int score of nigh-infinity by doing the above. (Pun-pun (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5933.0) combination, for those who don't know)

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-17, 11:57 PM
Shadowcraft mage to turn mirror images into full-powered versions of yourself to cast your current spell-load from their spell-slots.

Silent image to create obstacles (such as darkness, or illusory walls) to hide within, giving you effective invisibility.

Alter self instead of fly for flight for 10 min/lvl (rather than 1 min/lvl), and a lot of more offensive and defensive uses as well.

Explosive runes and a quick area dispel magic to turn an entire book full of pages into an incredibly destructive force-bomb (high CL runes, low CL dispel).

Maximize Spell and Empower Spell to ruin someone's day with dispel magic.

Claudius Maximus
2010-03-18, 12:29 AM
Shadowcraft mage to turn mirror images into full-powered versions of yourself to cast your current spell-load from their spell-slots.

That does not work, as mirror image is not one of the spells to which a Shadowcraft Mage can apply Shadow Illusion. Furthermore, Shadow Illusion only allows an illusion spell to mimic specific Sorcerer/Wizard spells, and I do not know of any such spell that would accomplish what you're describing here.


Maximize Spell and Empower Spell to ruin someone's day with dispel magic.

This also does not work. Maximize does nothing to your caster level check when applied to Dispel Magic, since it is not a variable numeric effect of the spell itself; rather, Dispel Magic entitles you to make a caster level check. You could maximize the check no more than you could maximize your attack roll for a Ray of Enfeeblement.

Corey
2010-03-18, 12:35 AM
Here's one I just was thinking about:

Keep bags of holding inside each other for additional space at no extra weight. At higher levels, store them all inside your handy haversack, and ignore the 5lbs that those 3 tons/level of vendor trash actually encumber your character with.

Doesn't work, more's the pity. Read the description. They explicitly disavow it.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-18, 12:39 AM
Wood is about 40 lbs. per cubic foot, so you're looking at about 80 pounds per caster level. The SRD wagon is a 400 lb. wagon pulled by 2 horses, so I'd guess it's about 7-8'x12'. The wagon you want is probably do-able, depending on whether the spell means volume of material or a box surrounding the wagon. If it means a box surrounding the wagon, that's a lot less as a 2'x1'x1' box isn't that big.

Just the wagon, not the horses. I'll use either a construct or something else to pull/move it when I need to. (a water wheel attached to the axle and a decanter of endless water maybe. or and effigy creature heavy on the templates)

2 cu. ft/level. The wagon should be about 10x10x15. so 1500 cubic feet, or level 750 to use shrink item on it. Is that correct?:smalleek:

ericgrau
2010-03-18, 01:05 AM
Well if you include the air contained in the wagon. That's the thing. A standard 400 lb. wagon is only 10 cubic feet of wood. But it could be 7x12x~2 = a couple hundred cubic feet of "wagon" if you include the air inside. It all depends what the spell means.

In either case you could take the wagon apart and box it up into a box a little over 10 cubic feet, then shrink that box. When you need a wagon later, you assemble it.

Only minor issue there is that the wagon can't be built with nails. You'll have to ask the blacksmith to make latches or pins for it all over, then you unhook and hook the latches, or pull the pins to put it together and pull it apart.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 01:17 AM
That does not work, as mirror image is not one of the spells to which a Shadowcraft Mage can apply Shadow Illusion. Furthermore, Shadow Illusion only allows an illusion spell to mimic specific Sorcerer/Wizard spells, and I do not know of any such spell that would accomplish what you're describing here.Okay, I'll grant you this.


This also does not work. Maximize does nothing to your caster level check when applied to Dispel Magic, since it is not a variable numeric effect of the spell itself; rather, Dispel Magic entitles you to make a caster level check. You could maximize the check no more than you could maximize your attack roll for a Ray of Enfeeblement.So, you're saying that 1d20+CL isn't a variable, numeric roll, which dispel magic allows you to make?


Well if you include the air contained in the wagon. That's the thing. A standard 400 lb. wagon is only 10 cubic feet of wood. But it could be 7x12x~2 = a couple hundred cubic feet of "wagon" if you include the air inside. It all depends what the spell means.

In either case you could take the wagon apart and box it up into a box a little over 10 cubic feet, then shrink that box. When you need a wagon later, you assemble it.

Only minor issue there is that the wagon can't be built with nails. You'll have to ask the blacksmith to make latches or pins for it all over, then you unhook and hook the latches, or pull the pins to put it together and pull it apart.Cast shrink item on a 400 lb block of wood, and permanency it. Now use fabricate (or the psionic version) to turn it into a cart (with a craft check for the moving parts). Now it's one cart, 2 axles/4 wheels, all triggered with one command word.

Voila.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 01:20 AM
Ack. Double-post.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-18, 01:22 AM
Dang. Looks like I'm back to trying to use a modified Folding Boat to make my workshop, I guess.


Ohh! I like Lycanthromancer's solution. A cart won't due, but I can try this to make the wagon maybe (sort of wanted to go for something like this (http://www.mainegoodsams.org/gypsy-wagon-465cb.jpg)). The furniture can be a part of the whole thing. But I'll still need to remove some things when I reduce it. Unseen servant can take care of that though.


EDIT: I'd use a portable hole, but it is rare that I get to stop for crafting of any kind. Must be on the go while I do it, so the wagon must shrink so I can take it into places a wagon can't normally go.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 01:31 AM
Dang. Looks like I'm back to trying to use a modified Folding Boat to make my workshop, I guess.See my previous post (although anything else in/on the cart won't shrink unless you shrink them all and give them all the same activating command).

Also, an enveloping pit makes for an excellent workshop if you can fly (or have a climb speed, or can teleport in or out). Portable holes, too.

Kirgoth
2010-03-18, 01:40 AM
Run up to the very nasty monster with a bag of holding in one hand and portable hole in the other. Place the portable hole inside the bag of holding when beside them. It opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there (no save mentioned).

Type 1 bag 2500gp
portable hole 20000gp

Then plane shift youself back to the material plane; as long as they don't have this ability they cannot return.

gallagher
2010-03-18, 02:14 AM
I was always a fan of being in a cave, transmute rock to mud on hue ceiling above the bad guys, then transmute mudbro rock. Now thy can't move

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-18, 02:22 AM
So, you're saying that 1d20+CL isn't a variable, numeric roll, which dispel magic allows you to make?He's saying that the dispel check isn't a variable, numeric effect of the spell.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-18, 02:34 AM
So, you're saying that 1d20+CL isn't a variable, numeric roll, which dispel magic allows you to make?
If a spell required you to make a hide check, would maximizing it guarantee you a 20 on that check?

Splendor
2010-03-18, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Splendor
11) Rogue tumbling into opponents square (DC 25) to deny then their Dex bonus to AC to sneak attack them, and then using spring attack to end their movement in another square (can't end movement in another square).
Wrong here too. Simply passing through another character's square doesn't deny them their DEX bonus to AC, nor does a DC 25 Tumble check. Maybe you're thinking of something else.

Looks like my Clever trick was actually used for both the feat ”Low Blow” (Races of Faerun) and the trick “Acrobatic Backstab” (Complete Scoundrel). In one of the dragon magazine they had a step by step action of what happened when you moved through another’s square. When two medium sized creatures where occupying the same square (like when you moved through an allies square) you were both considered flat-footed for that moment, and if someone readied an action you could attack them and they would be denied their dex. However there was something about being able to see vital areas (something to do with possible cover)



Originally Posted by Splendor
1) Sundering spell component pouches, how many of your spell rely on components.
Good tactic. But remember the sunderer has to first succeed on a Spot check to see that fine object (DC 20 if within 10'; penalties both for range and distraction), and if they don't make the check when they first have line of sight they'll need to use a move action every subsequent check.

“Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it. A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.”- PHB 83

Since the spell component isn’t hiding and isn’t invisible you don’t need to make a spot check. But that doesn’t matter because you don’t need to make a spot check to sunder a carried or worn object…

"Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does." – PHB 158


Originally Posted by Splendor

3) Tanglefoot Bolts (DR 349): If you can't move you don't get a reflex save.
Absolutely wrong. The only condition that prevents you from taking Reflex saves is death.

“An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move.” – PHB 129 (if it fails it's save it's immobile.)

Looking though the rules I guess you do get a reflex save even when you can’t move… In fact according to the rules you even get a reflex save when you're unconscious or helpless…..



Keep bags of holding inside each other for additional space at no extra weight. At higher levels, store them all inside your handy haversack, and ignore the 5lbs that those 3 tons/level of vendor trash actually encumber your character with.
Doesn't work, more's the pity. Read the description. They explicitly disavow it.

No you can’t put a bag of holding in a portable hole. Nothing in the description says you can’t put a bag of holding in a bag of holding.

"If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole (page 264), a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process." - DMG 248

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-18, 03:38 AM
Unconscious folk do get a reflex save, but with an effective dex of 0 they're probably only making it on a natural 20.

And for some reason the bag of holding stuff is reminding me of xzibit...

Curmudgeon
2010-03-18, 04:55 AM
Since the spell component isn’t hiding and isn’t invisible you don’t need to make a spot check. But that doesn’t matter because you don’t need to make a spot check to sunder a carried or worn object… You just quoted this line:
Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it. I think your difficulty here is treating this as a rules exception rather than a rules explanation. But the specific example from earlier in the Skills chapter (PH page 64) makes it clear that this is really an explanation:
Difficulty (DC) Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot) A Spot check proves that you've seen something. If you fail to Spot a spell component pouch you've established that it is difficult for you to see: maybe because of its size, and maybe because of other gear and clothing obscuring it. Regardless, you failed to see it. Next time, you'll need to use a move action to try to look more carefully.

"Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC.
Those mechanics for how you make the attack don't include information about where attackable objects you've never seen happen to be. Are you going to claim that you can just sunder all the gear on an invisible opponent? You didn't Spot any of that stuff, either.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-18, 01:29 PM
Page 5 and no one has mentioned the Hat Trick? Take a cone of Adamantine big enough to surround you. Cast Shrink Item, and wear the shrunk item on your head. If someone gets close enough to you with an AMF, the shrink item wears off, and you are surrounded by an adamantine cone, which breaks LoS, and protects you from the AMF.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-18, 02:54 PM
Immovable Rod with regard to ships. Or wagons. Or holding up razor wire, across a road.

Bags of holding all fit in a heward's handy haversack. No rule prohibits doing this.

Water breathing + decanter of endless water = breathe anywhere.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-18, 02:57 PM
Immovable Rod with regard to ships. Or wagons. Or holding up razor wire, across a road. These are but the least of fun things to do. Try fighting a monster with Swallow Whole + Immobile Rod activated inside them...


Bags of holding all fit in a heward's handy haversack. No rule prohibits doing this. Unfortunately, there is.


Water breathing + decanter of endless water = breathe anywhere. Necklace of Adaptation does the same thing for less cost.

The Random NPC
2010-03-18, 03:32 PM
Doesn't work, more's the pity. Read the description. They explicitly disavow it.

I just read the descriptions of the bag of holding, portable hole, and the handy haversack. I didn't see anything about putting bags of holding in bags of holding.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-18, 03:35 PM
Immovable Rod with regard to ships.
You'll break loose immediately.
An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. You have any idea how much force a full load of sail will pick up from even a light breeze?

J.Gellert
2010-03-18, 03:39 PM
Page 5 and no one has mentioned the Hat Trick? Take a cone of Adamantine big enough to surround you. Cast Shrink Item, and wear the shrunk item on your head. If someone gets close enough to you with an AMF, the shrink item wears off, and you are surrounded by an adamantine cone, which breaks LoS, and protects you from the AMF.

Isn't that likely to crush you to death?

Mauther
2010-03-18, 03:58 PM
You'll break loose immediately. You have any idea how much force a full load of sail will pick up from even a light breeze?

This is what Inevitables are for. I've created an Inevitable subrace that's responsible for enforcing the laws of mathmatics and science in the DnD world my game inhabits. They're powerful, nigh unstoppable and completly merciless. Whenever the math moves beyond high school level, they announce their impending presence with a ringing bell that sounds alot like an old bicycle bell. Thankfully, they've never had to make an actual appearance. I've got 2 engineers in my group, I had to do something to stop these vary arguements.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-18, 04:03 PM
Isn't that likely to crush you to death?

Not if you make it a cone with an interior angle of around 150 degrees. It would expand outwards and connect with the ground instantaneously (since dispelling occurs immediately), thus preventing damage to you.

Alternatively, boost your strength or use aluminum.


This is what Inevitables are for. I've created an Inevitable subrace that's responsible for enforcing the laws of mathmatics and science in the DnD world my game inhabits. They're powerful, nigh unstoppable and completly merciless. Whenever the math moves beyond high school level, they announce their impending presence with a ringing bell that sounds alot like an old bicycle bell. Thankfully, they've never had to make an actual appearance. I've got 2 engineers in my group, I had to do something to stop these vary arguements.

Ah, inevitables. Is this any loophole they can't solve? In my games, I've threatened my players with "Inevitables of Capitalism" to keep them out of infinite wealth loops. I never statted them out, but they would probably look like an unholy combination of a certain Scotsman, a certain 1930's tycoon, and Donald Trump.

Greenish
2010-03-18, 04:09 PM
You'll break loose immediately. You have any idea how much force a full load of sail will pick up from even a light breeze?Wouldn't that be the ship doing a strength check to move the rod, instead, since the rod is not actually supporting the ship? DC 30 to move 10' a round.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-18, 04:10 PM
Wouldn't that be the ship doing a strength check to move the rod, instead, since the rod is not actually supporting the ship? DC 30 to move 10' a round.

Techincally, the wind would produce a force of at least 8000 pounds sideways (pounds were originally a unit of force before they were recently redefined as mass, IIRC), so no strength check would be required. The rod would simply fail.

Speaking of which, using 2 immovable rods to climb in mid air is fun (activate one, push the other higher, switch, repeat).

senrath
2010-03-18, 04:13 PM
Alternatively, the wood (or whatever) of the ship could fail, leaving the rod suspended somewhere behind the ship, having torn a hole in the back of the boat.

Greenish
2010-03-18, 04:15 PM
Techincally, the wind would produce a force of at least 8000 pounds sideways (pounds were originally a unit of force before they were recently redefined as mass, IIRC), so no strength check would be required. The rod would simply fail.But by RAW, moving the rod sideways is a strength check, while hanging on it has a weight limit. Since the rod is not supporting the ship, there's no weight limit, and no matter how much force you can exert on it, you can only move it 10 feet.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-18, 04:40 PM
Implanting immovable rods in big monsters with swallow whole, then cutting your way out.
Putting the clankey people in a bag of holding with a bottle of air and have someone with ranks in stealth carry it as you sneak past the guards/monsters/whatever.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-18, 04:42 PM
Alternatively, the wood (or whatever) of the ship could fail, leaving the rod suspended somewhere behind the ship, having torn a hole in the back of the boat.
Not likely to happen. The default strength of clear wood at 12% moisture content is 52.7 MPa, or 7,643.49 lbs/in2. So unless you somehow manage to make your Immovable Rod contact less than about 1 square inch of ship timber, the rod will fail first.

Tehnar
2010-03-18, 04:47 PM
A few of DM tricks:

- Swallow whole + monsters with damage reduction
- need a quick buff for monsters? add a positive level to them: +1 to hit/CL, +1 saves, +5 hp
- dispel, dispel, dispel
- traps using gust of wind, or elevated tripwires: deal with those who can fly

senrath
2010-03-18, 04:53 PM
Not likely to happen. The default strength of clear wood at 12% moisture content is 52.7 MPa, or 7,643.49 lbs/in2. So unless you somehow manage to make your Immovable Rod contact less than about 1 square inch of ship timber, the rod will fail first.

That's assuming that the wood was of a decent quality to begin with, and that it is still in good shape. Also depends on what wood was used in the construction of the boat.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-18, 06:00 PM
That's assuming that the wood was of a decent quality to begin with, and that it is still in good shape. Also depends on what wood was used in the construction of the boat.
Pretty much all wood used in ship construction is stronger than average. Ship captains have this fear of being on the open ocean in a vessel that breaks apart under wind and wave pressure, you see. :smallwink:

Splendor
2010-03-19, 04:07 AM
Those mechanics for how you make the attack don't include information about where attackable objects you've never seen happen to be. Are you going to claim that you can just sunder all the gear on an invisible opponent? You didn't Spot any of that stuff, either.

Nope I didn’t say that because invisible objects are considered hidden. But while we’re on the issue of invisible, did you know it’s a DC 20 to spot to notice a invisible creature that’s not hiding? That’s the same DC as you want to make it too spot a 2lb pouch on someone’s hip. Have you ever failed to spot a fanny pack? You don’t have to make spot check to notice things in plain sight. You would have to make a spot check to notice a mouth dart laying on the floor, but not a fanny pack on someone's hip.


I think your difficulty here is treating this as a rules exception rather than a rules explanation. But the specific example from earlier in the Skills chapter (PH page 64) makes it clear that this is really an explanation

Yes its a DC 0 to notice something large in plain sight. Where does it give a DC for noticing a fanny pack? The DC to be able to read lips is only a 15. That's not only being able to spot their lips (which are smaller then a fanny pack) but also being able to figure out what they are saying.



Unconscious folk do get a reflex save, but with an effective dex of 0 they're probably only making it on a natural 20.
No where in the rules does it state an unconscious person does not get a reflex saving throw. Yes I know that not allowing them one makes sense. But neither does someone who's immobile avoiding a fire ball make sense.

Greenish
2010-03-19, 04:47 AM
Have you ever failed to spot a fanny pack?How would you know? :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-03-19, 07:03 AM
Not likely to happen. The default strength of clear wood at 12% moisture content is 52.7 MPa, or 7,643.49 lbs/in2. So unless you somehow manage to make your Immovable Rod contact less than about 1 square inch of ship timber, the rod will fail first.

None of that is specified by RAW. Ships, as per stormwrack, tended to listed as sectional objects, much like walls are. Each area has a hardness, hp, all that good stuff.

IIRC, the rod can support up to 5000 lbs. There's a significant difference between supporting and slamming into it. Strength checks to move the rod are not typically done by a boat, but even if allowed and successful, if speed of boat is > 10ft a round, they end up with the rod still inside them.

So, you need to either figure out what happens when a rod slams through a ship, or figure out what happens to a ship when it stops instantly upon hitting a very small object. Neither is good.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-19, 07:24 AM
Nope I didn’t say that because invisible objects are considered hidden. But while we’re on the issue of invisible, did you know it’s a DC 20 to spot to notice a invisible creature that’s not hiding? That’s the same DC as you want to make it too spot a 2lb pouch on someone’s hip.

No...invisible is +20 to the hide check. Other things also provide a bonus, such as distance, size, etc. If they're not hiding....they're not hiding. It's a terrible example. If they are hiding, the DC will be vastly above 20.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 07:45 AM
Have you ever failed to spot a fanny pack?
Oh, many times. With a jacket or long shirt, it may take minutes to notice that there's a bit of Cordura sticking out underneath the garment. They're not trying to hide the fanny pack, but it's still not easy to see.

Lysander
2010-03-19, 07:48 AM
So, you need to either figure out what happens when a rod slams through a ship, or figure out what happens to a ship when it stops instantly upon hitting a very small object. Neither is good.

Depends where the hole is. It's also perfectly plausible that the ship could move the rod and slowly lose momentum.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 07:52 AM
Yes its a DC 0 to notice something large in plain sight. Where does it give a DC for noticing a fanny pack?
The DC opposing Spot changes by +/- 4 for each size increment. Simple arithmetic is all it takes.

Edhelras
2010-03-19, 07:59 AM
Concerning the Bag-in-Bag-issue: I always thought there was a rule about placing an extra-dimensional space into another extra-dimensional space - and attempting that would cause a catastrophe like the one mentioned with Hole-in-Bag?

senrath
2010-03-19, 08:12 AM
Concerning the Bag-in-Bag-issue: I always thought there was a rule about placing an extra-dimensional space into another extra-dimensional space - and attempting that would cause a catastrophe like the one mentioned with Hole-in-Bag?

That's a hold over from older editions. The only actual rule (IIRC) that made it into 3.5 about sticking extra-dimensional spaces within each other is the one about sticking a Portable Hole inside a Bag of Holding (or vice versa).

Edhelras
2010-03-19, 08:24 AM
All right, if you say so. It still makes great sense to me, though.

I cannot readily understand while Hole-in-Bag is a problem, if Bag-in-Bag is OK.

BTW What are the rules about carrying Bags into pocket planes and such? Would that be a similar situation?

Edhelras
2010-03-19, 08:28 AM
I found this in the SRD concerning the Rope Trick: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm :

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

This was an example of the situation I was referring to.

However, reading the entry on Bag of Holding http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding , the space inside the Bag is called non-dimensional, not extra-dimensional. I'm not sure how to interpret the difference.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-19, 08:29 AM
All right, if you say so. It still makes great sense to me, though.

I cannot readily understand while Hole-in-Bag is a problem, if Bag-in-Bag is OK.

BTW What are the rules about carrying Bags into pocket planes and such? Would that be a similar situation?

There are no rules regarding extradimensional spaces save for hole/bag interaction. There's also the odd fluff line about danger(ie, in rope trick) with absolutely no rules for what said danger entails.

It's leftover junk from old editions, and there is no particular reason why it should still be included other than nostalgia. Happens a lot.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-19, 08:32 AM
I found this in the SRD concerning the Rope Trick: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm :

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

This was an example of the situation I was referring to.

However, reading the entry on Bag of Holding http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding , the space inside the Bag is called non-dimensional, not extra-dimensional. I'm not sure how to interpret the difference.

Simple, nothing happens.

The Shadowmind
2010-03-19, 08:34 AM
Maybe the "dangerous" wording is a warning to duck when the DM throws the DMG at you for trying a BoH in a BoH in a BoH in a BoH.

Edhelras
2010-03-19, 08:40 AM
In the entry on Portable hole, the space created seems to be labelled as both extra- and non-dimensional:

"When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.

The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. "

But the significance of this, I don't know.

Anyway, I would personally lean towards ruling that you can't put a Bag into a Bag, even though based on old rules.

BTW in this Comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html it seems like Haley had only one Bag of Holding, but apparently several carts.

adecoy95
2010-03-19, 08:52 AM
with divine metamagic and persist spell, you can make clerics that rule the battlefield in melee, barring some serious min maxing, nothing compares to the power a cleric with even 2 persisted spells can bring to the front line

divine power - fighter base attack
righteous might - +8 str +4 con 10ft reach dr/12 evil
wraithstrike (you need the spell domain for this one) all your attacks are touch attacks
righteous wrath of the faithful - +3 to hit and damage and haste to all your party members

ethereal with force spells like missile swarm and bigbys

cant think of any others atm

EDIT: oh!! delay death (4th level cleric spell) + die hard feat, wont go unconscious, finish up combat and then break out those heal wands

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-19, 09:25 AM
There are no rules regarding extradimensional spaces save for hole/bag interaction. There's also the odd fluff line about danger(ie, in rope trick) with absolutely no rules for what said danger entails.

It's leftover junk from old editions, and there is no particular reason why it should still be included other than nostalgia. Happens a lot.

Yeah, that line is simply a copy-paste error. Here's the exact text of the 2e version:


Rope Trick
(Alteration)
Range: Touch; Components: V, S, M
Duration: 2 turns/level; Casting Time: 2
Area of Effect: Special; Saving Throw: None

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it; otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures might be able to remove it, at the DM's option). spells cannot be cast across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were a 3-foot x 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell, or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradimensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

It used to be that any space in any other was dangerous, but when the 3e designers got rid of that rule they just forgot to remove references to it.

Petrocorus
2010-03-19, 09:29 AM
with divine metamagic and persist spell, you can make clerics that rule the battlefield in melee, barring some serious min maxing, nothing compares to the power a cleric with even 3-4 persisted spells can bring to the front line


How do you manage to persist so many spell at a time?

adecoy95
2010-03-19, 09:32 AM
nightsticks give 4 extra turns for 8000 gold each, extra turning feats. a flaw or two can give you an extra persist, there is a domain with extra turning as a bonus feat

ill edit my post tho, to say 2 instead of 3-4, because even just wraithstrike and divine power makes you pretty beast

Corey
2010-03-19, 09:35 AM
I just read the descriptions of the bag of holding, portable hole, and the handy haversack. I didn't see anything about putting bags of holding in bags of holding.

Fair enough; I was thinking of the bag of holding/portable hole clause.

Let's take it to the RAW thread.

ericgrau
2010-03-19, 09:40 AM
Not likely to happen. The default strength of clear wood at 12% moisture content is 52.7 MPa, or 7,643.49 lbs/in2. So unless you somehow manage to make your Immovable Rod contact less than about 1 square inch of ship timber, the rod will fail first.

Stress does not work that way!! Short answer is that there are plenty of wooden structures that cannot hold 8,000 pounds. Slightly longer answer is that something may not punch a hole into the ship (and even then the area measured isn't contact area, it's thickness x contact circumference), but the wood could still break through bending which would make the stress far, far higher. However, water pressure alone is likely to exceed 8,000 pounds, so the ship's side is probably framed right to be able to support the weight. Discussions over what kind of wood it is are silly and irrelevant, as this alone won't tell us squat about the ship's strength. A board of wood without a frame behind it will bend and break regardless.



It used to be that any space in any other was dangerous, but when the 3e designers got rid of that rule they just forgot to remove references to it.
Except they completely changed the wording in 3e. That can't happen with copy-paste. We have an example of at least 1 pair of extra-dimensional spaces that are dangerous to bring into each-other with rules on why, with no word on what to do about other ones.

At best you could argue they didn't bother deciding whether or not to remove the rule and decided to rewrite it, but that's not copy-paste. And it's all speculation without a written statement from the designers. The best we have is a single article author's recommendation to ignore the rule, which really leaves the matter annoyingly ambiguous. It seems like it's up to the DM/players to handle it. Or at least the default is to let the DM make up what kind of hazard to cause. It was never defined all that well even in 2e. There is rope trick errata but it never bothers to do anything with this line.

Petrocorus
2010-03-19, 09:46 AM
ill edit my post tho, to say 2 instead of 3-4, because even just wraithstrike and divine power makes you pretty beast

Indeed. Even Divine Power alone is already great.

For wraithstrike, there is a Paladin spell, Find the gap which is quite good too
and you can access it just by diping one or two level in Pr Paladin, which also allows you to use the serenity feat and so improves the numbers of turn attempts.

jiriku
2010-03-19, 09:53 AM
Hmm, if we're providing DM tricks as well: maximum ranks in Knowledge (local) and the Knowledge Devotion feat is a great way to add a solid bonus to hit and damage with minimal investment, since nearly all PCs are humanoids.

You get even more mileage out of the combo if you use advanced monsters with types that advance +1 CR/4 HD, such as aberrations, fey, and undead. Such monsters have an unusually high max skill rank cap for their CR, and get bonuses that are disproportionately large compared to what a typical PC would be capable of. You can augment this even further with the Collector of Stories skill trick.

Bartonar
2010-03-19, 10:12 AM
You know those wands of Enemy Detection and other useless junk? (Who needs to know what's an enemy). Several uses other than pawning em. All the characters in my past groups have thier own ideas for the explosive potential of wands.
Altair - (see signature. I was DMing then)
Zel - Run into the most populated room in the dungeon, drawing many enemies into it, then dtonate.
Bartonar - Put a bunch of them into a keg, pout holy water in it, pour oil in it, light oil, throw.

Also, i quick Dragon Suggestion.
Sample Group- 1 Cleric, 1 Caged Warrior, 1 Paladin, 1 Mage (i dont know which mage can do this)

Cleric melds into stone, and goes through the floor into the cage, puts the warrior outside, and sits in the cage casting 'Chant'. Warrior and Paladin have 'Fly' cast on them from mage, who distracts the dragon with 'Light' on its eyes. Paladin and Warrior fly into Dragon's mouth. Paladin jumps down the throat, stops halfway, and starts cutting himself out. Warrior puts a sword the top of the Dragon's mouth, preventing flames, swallowing, etc. Dragon counts as dead since Warrior and Paly not taking any damage.

Sliver
2010-03-19, 10:31 AM
How do you manage to persist so many spell at a time?

A character currently running the neverending dungeon is a level 5 gestalt with 6 persisted spells. No nightsticks.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-19, 10:33 AM
Except they completely changed the wording in 3e. That can't happen with copy-paste. We have an example of at least 1 pair of extra-dimensional spaces that are dangerous to bring into each-other with rules on why, with no word on what to do about other ones.

At best you could argue they didn't bother deciding whether or not to remove the rule and decided to rewrite it, but that's not copy-paste. And it's all speculation without a written statement from the designers. The best we have is a single article author's recommendation to ignore the rule, which really leaves the matter annoyingly ambiguous. It seems like it's up to the DM/players to handle it. Or at least the default is to let the DM make up what kind of hazard to cause. It was never defined all that well even in 2e. There is rope trick errata but it never bothers to do anything with this line.

Instead of "copy-paste error" I probably should have said something along the lines of mistaken inclusion. The fact remains that while the spell is reworded, the whole thing is basically there, yet the DM notes on punishing players for putting together extradimensional spaces in 2e are conspicuously absent in 3e. Maybe it originated from indecision over whether to include the rules, maybe it originated from an overzealous transcriber, but the fact remains that the only interaction documented in the rules is portable hole/bag of holding and that does not generalize to all extradimensional spaces.

The Deej
2010-03-19, 11:49 AM
Another guy in my group once shared the invention of a sort of car with a 1st level spell: Tenser's Floating Disc. Harness a cart to the disc, sit in the cart, and order the disc to move away from you. Only moves at your normal speed, but doable at low levels, and dirt cheap.

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-19, 11:54 AM
oh!! delay death (4th level cleric spell) + die hard feat, wont go unconscious, finish up combat with a cure minor wounds, automatically stabilizing them from negative whatever, to zero :D(facepalm)

Stabilizing someone does not work that way. :smallsigh:

Lysander
2010-03-19, 12:09 PM
How about using Ethereal Jaunt/Empty Body to negate falling damage. Just turn it on when you're near the ground.

adecoy95
2010-03-19, 12:26 PM
(facepalm)

Stabilizing someone does not work that way. :smallsigh:

*checks*

my bad, i thought that a character that becomes stable went to 0 hp, dunno why.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 12:35 PM
Another guy in my group once shared the invention of a sort of car with a 1st level spell: Tenser's Floating Disc. Harness a cart to the disc, sit in the cart, and order the disc to move away from you.
Doesn't work.
You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you. ... It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round. It follows, so it cannot lead. It accompanies you, not the other way around. About all you can control is how far behind it lags when it follows you.

Gametime
2010-03-19, 12:44 PM
Doesn't work. It follows, so it cannot lead. It accompanies you, not the other way around. About all you can control is how far behind it lags when it follows you.

This calls for the invention of some sort of absurd treadmill! Hook up a treadmill with rigid bars to the Disc and the wagon, then start walking. You'll have to move a bit forward at the start to get the disc going, but once you do you can settle down to a steady speed because the disc will move the wagon which will move the treadmill which will move you which will move the disc! :smallbiggrin:

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-19, 12:46 PM
Doesn't work. It follows, so it cannot lead. It accompanies you, not the other way around. About all you can control is how far behind it lags when it follows you.

So could you not use it to push the cart instead?

senrath
2010-03-19, 12:50 PM
*checks*

my bad, i thought that a character that becomes stable went to 0 hp, dunno why.

You might be thinking of 4e. Any amount of healing bumps you up to positive in 4e.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 12:51 PM
So could you not use it to push the cart instead?
The spell gives it zero pulling or pushing force; it can just carry loads. So plunk a box on top of the Disk and load it, up to its carrying capacity. Bingo: you've got a wheel-less wagon that you don't need to pull behind you. It just can't move the caster.

The Deej
2010-03-19, 01:19 PM
The spell doesn't explicitly say that the disc can in no way move the caster. And I'm sure that a cleverly crafted 'hovercart' could successfully utilize a floating disc, if done something like the following:

The whole thing is 12 ft. long, with a box in the middle for the disc. There is a seat at the front for the driver/caster, and a counterweight at the back that weighs about the same as the driver. All other cargo would simply be placed over top of the disc. From the driver's seat, the caster casts the spell through a hole into the box, and orders the disc to lift off the ground, but maintain its 6ft distance. The caster is being supported by the weight of the disc (which isn't prohibited by the spell). The caster then orders the disc to carry its load at a 5-ft interval from him. The disc then attempts to carry the whole thing one foot closer to the driver, but continuously carries him foreward at the same time.

Boom. Cheap Car.

GreyVulpine
2010-03-19, 01:31 PM
Or an easier method would be to use Tenser's Floating Disk, Greater from SpC.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-19, 04:01 PM
Page 5 and no one has mentioned the Hat Trick? Take a cone of Adamantine big enough to surround you. Cast Shrink Item, and wear the shrunk item on your head. If someone gets close enough to you with an AMF, the shrink item wears off, and you are surrounded by an adamantine cone, which breaks LoS, and protects you from the AMF.I've talked about that so many times of late that I figured everyone was getting tired of it.

If you have a raven familiar you can have it ready an action to call out the command word to protect you from anything requiring line of sight or line of effect that doesn't break through the cone (and you can just DD right through it to safety).

Permanency, of course, lets you use your hat over and over, and making the sole of one of your shoes will protect you whilst flying, as well.

gallagher
2010-03-19, 08:27 PM
On the bag of holding: when taking an extradimensional space in a rope trick, I rule that it goes inert while inside as long as it isn't opened. We normally stock to not opening them in there, since it is effectively the best resting spot in any dungeon. Portable holes open a hole to the outside

PrismaticPIA
2010-03-21, 12:27 PM
Mindbender 1 with Mindsight. Shapechange into a Spell weaver. Now you have blindsense out to 1000 miles.

9mm
2010-03-21, 12:55 PM
Arcane archer + splitting weaponry = free twin spell.

Darklord Xavez
2010-03-21, 01:03 PM
The ultimate army: one or more 17th-20th level druids. Each day, they cast Shamblers to summon 1d4+2 shambling mounds (avg. 5). The mounds stay for one week as soldiers or 7 months as guards, so for each 9th-level spell the druid can cast per day, they will have about 35 CR 6 monsters who obey their every command. A 20th-level druid, then could have 140 shambling mounds under their command at the same time. Scary. Now imagine multiple druids.
-Xavez
Also:
Just something cool: Cast lightning bolt one turn and resonating bolt (Complete Arcane, 1d4/level sonic damage) the turn afterwards. CRACKA-BOOM!

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 02:47 PM
Higher level wizards should always have a couple of rods of absorption handy. Empty ones protect you from spells, and (partially) full ones turn you into a spontaneous caster.