Dragon Ball Z Kid Buu vs Super Buu

[Drolyt]

Ok, on the internet there are a lot of debates about which Buu was strongest, Super Buu or Kid Buu. Now I've never participated in these debates before (I prefer to just read them since for some reason people seem to take personal offense if you dare to disagree with them) but one thing I've been wondering about is some of the "evidence" used to support either side. In chapter 508, page 13, the translation I've read has Goku saying, as Super Buu transforms into Kid Buu "Hey Vegeta, isn't he instead getting stronger?", referring to Buu. This seems to be pretty solid evidence that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, but in the debates they appear to use a different translation or something. Is the translation inaccurate?

There's also another quote that gets used, where Goku says he can defeat Kid Buu at Full Power Super Saiyan 3. The closest I can get are Goku saying he could have killed Fat Buu in chapter 510, page 11, and Vegeta saying that he could destroy Kid Buu in an instant in chapter 511 page 13, but Goku says he's been trying to, but he could do it if he could gather his energy. This seems to imply that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu, otherwise why didn't Goku just go Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu instead of fusing with Vegeta? That said, it isn't absolute evidence, maybe he wanted to do the fusion because he wasn't sure if Super Saiyan 3 would work. Either way it is weird.

There's another issue that makes the whole thing confusing. The problem with Super Saiyan 3 is that it is too powerful for a mortal body, that's why Goku can only use it to full effect in the afterlife, and why Gotenks burns out while using it. If that's the case, and we assume Super Buu > Kid Buu (which makes a lot of sense) and that Mystic Gohan > Super Buu (which is obvious), why is Gohan in his Mystic form (fan name for his new transformation after the Elder Kai's power up) able to use that kind of energy without any problems?

Finally, if Super Buu > Kid Buu what the hell was the point of the Genki Dama? They could have just sent Mystic Gohan to take care of Kid Buu and be done with it. The way they act like if the Spirit Bomb doesn't work they are all toast is perhaps the strongest evidence for Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu, despite evidence to the contrary.

[FoE]

Wasn't Kid Buu his original form before the goodness of the Kai infected him? I'm pretty sure that was the strongest.

[Drolyt]

Wasn't Kid Buu his original form before the goodness of the Kai infected him? I'm pretty sure that was the strongest.

Right, Kid Buu was the original. Logically Kid Buu absorbing all those people should make Super Buu stronger, but how I originally understood it was that the presence of the Dao Kaioshin kept him from using his full power. However, a lot of people have argued that Super Buu (or at least Super Buu after absorbing Gohan) is stronger than Kid Buu, and they make a good argument, so I'm confused.

[Soepvork]

Couldn't it be that, in principle/potential, Super Buu is stronger, but is held backby the influence of the Kai's kidness, but Kid Buu is not inhibited by any mercy or need of holding back and therefore able to reach his full potential?

[FoE]

But Super Buu was only artificially enhancing his strength by absorbing people, which meant he also had a glaring weakness. And always, he had the goodness of the Kai infecting him, which affected his personality and his intellegience.

Kid Buu had no weakness, and his evil had no restraints placed upon it. Was his power level lower than Super Buu after absorbing Gohan? Perhaps. But it was a marginal difference. And he more than made up for it by being far more unpredictable and lethal in his original form.

:xykon: Power. It isn't something you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just ARE. If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying?

[Prime32]

In chapter 508, page 13, the translation I've read has Goku saying, as Super Buu transforms into Kid Buu "Hey Vegeta, isn't he instead getting stronger?", referring to Buu. This seems to be pretty solid evidence that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, but in the debates they appear to use a different translation or something. Is the translation inaccurate?Wasn't this after Super Buu lost the power he'd absorbed from Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan?

[Drolyt]

Wasn't this after Super Buu lost the power he'd absorbed from Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan?
You could interpret it that way, they had already taken out Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan, and Vegeta thought that removing Fat Buu should make him even weaker. If you interpret it that way though there is still the question of why Mystic Gohan didn't just kick Kid Buu's ass.

Couldn't it be that, in principle/potential, Super Buu is stronger, but is held backby the influence of the Kai's kidness, but Kid Buu is not inhibited by any mercy or need of holding back and therefore able to reach his full potential?
Right, that's how I interpreted it originally, that Super Buu with all his absorptions was stronger in principle but Kid Buu was stronger in actuality because he didn't have the Dao Kaioshin holding him back.

Edit: There is also the possibility that Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu but Super Buu + Mystic Gohan was stronger yet. That doesn't explain why they had to use the Genki Dama though.

[Douglas]

Note that I have only seen the anime, I have not read any of the manga.

Point 1: Against Super Buu, Goku was desperate and begging Vegeta for the fusion. His whole attitude during that dialog is screaming "this is the only possible way." Additionally, it just doesn't fit with his character that he'd go straight for fusion if he thought he had a chance with SS3.
Point 2: Against Kid Buu, right before Vegeta goes in to buy him time, Goku clearly states that he could, at full power and without holding back, beat Kid Buu. This is after fighting Kid Buu for a while, so he has considerable experience to back up that he knows what he's saying, and he states that he was originally holding back specifically so that Vegeta would get a turn.
Point 3: Super Buu changing into Kid Buu went through multiple stages as Buu regressed first (I think) to his post-Fat pre-Super-absorption form and then through the forms he'd had before Fat Buu. As I recall, the initial transformations in that sequence were commented on by Vegeta and/or Goku as being huge drops in power. Only the final one, directly into Kid Buu, got noted as an increase.

As for why they don't bring in Mystic Gohan: The whole Namekian Dragonballs plan was Vegeta's idea, he didn't know about Gohan's powerup, and once they got the Spirit Bomb (aka Genki Dama) going Mystic Gohan wasn't much of an option any more - he'd already contributed all of his energy to the Spirit Bomb, so he'd be too tired to fight well enough if they brought him in then. Plus, this was Goku's Big Return, and just repeating something that's already been done is boring - Gohan's had his turn, the Spirit Bomb is new against Buu.

[Drolyt]

Note that I have only seen the anime, I have not read any of the manga.

Point 1: Against Super Buu, Goku was desperate and begging Vegeta for the fusion. His whole attitude during that dialog is screaming "this is the only possible way." Additionally, it just doesn't fit with his character that he'd go straight for fusion if he thought he had a chance with SS3.
Point 2: Against Kid Buu, right before Vegeta goes in to buy him time, Goku clearly states that he could, at full power and without holding back, beat Kid Buu. This is after fighting Kid Buu for a while, so he has considerable experience to back up that he knows what he's saying, and he states that he was originally holding back specifically so that Vegeta would get a turn.
Point 3: Super Buu changing into Kid Buu went through multiple stages as Buu regressed first (I think) to his post-Fat pre-Super-absorption form and then through the forms he'd had before Fat Buu. As I recall, the initial transformations in that sequence were commented on by Vegeta and/or Goku as being huge drops in power. Only the final one, directly into Kid Buu, got noted as an increase.
Right, this is more or less the argument for Super Buu + Gohan being stronger (I guess we can say that Super Buu - Gohan/Piccolo/Gotenks is probably weaker).

As for why they don't bring in Mystic Gohan: The whole Namekian Dragonballs plan was Vegeta's idea, he didn't know about Gohan's powerup, and once they got the Spirit Bomb (aka Genki Dama) going Mystic Gohan wasn't much of an option any more - he'd already contributed all of his energy to the Spirit Bomb, so he'd be too tired to fight well enough if they brought him in then. Plus, this was Goku's Big Return, and just repeating something that's already been done is boring - Gohan's had his turn, the Spirit Bomb is new against Buu.
No, that can't be right. Vegeta says he could see everything from the afterlife, he should have been aware of Gohan's fight with Buu. Although the way he talks, he seems to think Super Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan... I wonder, maybe he didn't know about Mystic Gohan. Still seems like a stupid plan to me though.

[Douglas]

No, that can't be right. Vegeta says he could see everything from the afterlife, he should have been aware of Gohan's fight with Buu.
I don't remember that at all. The fact that Buu survived Vegeta's suicide attack in the first place was an enormous unpleasant surprise when King Yama informed him of it (there's a short scene where Vegeta hears this, gets mad and powers up, wrecking King Yama's office as a side effect, and this is only barely before King Yama sends Vegeta back to help), and Goku has to put considerable effort into convincing Vegeta on his first re-arrival into the real world that Buu is stronger now than when Vegeta first fought him.

Edit: The one comment I can remember that might sort of fit with that is where Vegeta says he found out about Goku's SS3. That only says that he's heard some things about Goku's performance in the afterlife, though, not that he's seen anything going on in the living world.


Although the way he talks, he seems to think Super Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan... I wonder, maybe he didn't know about Mystic Gohan. Still seems like a stupid plan to me though.
As far as Vegeta knew, he and Goku were the strongest fighters available by a huge margin. The only way to get someone stronger would be to fuse, and they already irrevocably removed that option. Thus, the only workable idea he can come up with is the super-attack with the normally infeasible powerup time, powered up further by additional sources of energy outside of what he and Goku already have.

[Mikeavelli]

If I remember correctly (It’s been years) the fused Goku and Vegeta (Vegeto? Gogeta? I forget) was supposed to be more powerful than even Super Buu by leaps and bounds. The only reason he didn’t just kill Super Buu then and there is because doing so would have irreversibly killed all the people Buu had absorbed (Piccolo, Gohan, etc) – and that was just unacceptable to Goku.

The Fused SSJ3 Gotenks and Trunks was ALSO more powerful than even Kid Buu by leaps and bounds, he was also screwing around the whole fight (he trapped Buu in a little ball, and then played Volleyball with Piccolo!) – unexpectedly running out of power before he could finish the dude off.

Mystic Gohan should have been powerful enough to destroy Buu as well, he didn’t win because Goku just has to be the hero.

[Starbuck_II]

Mystic Gohan should have been powerful enough to destroy Buu as well, he didn’t win because Goku just has to be the hero.

But Gohan was the hero against Cell, no?

[Mikeavelli]

Goku never should have come back.

[Optimystik]

Goku never should have come back.

This. This this this.

[Prime32]

He only came back because of Executive Meddling. DBZ was supposed to stay focused on Teen Gohan's school life.

[Kris Strife]

Heres the real question: Grand Kai told them to not hold back in the afterworld tournament because they couldn't be killed again, but it gets said that if Kid Buu killed them they'd be gone for good. Why the difference?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Heres the real question: Grand Kai told them to not hold back in the afterworld tournament because they couldn't be killed again, but it gets said that if Kid Buu killed them they'd be gone for good. Why the difference?

The entire afterlife tournament along with the Piccolo-clone is filler material to begin with though right? Without researching specific lines and translations I'd not care to say more than that.

[Drolyt]

Heres the real question: Grand Kai told them to not hold back in the afterworld tournament because they couldn't be killed again, but it gets said that if Kid Buu killed them they'd be gone for good. Why the difference?
Uh, that was filler. Filler makes stupid mistakes sometimes. There is no good in world explanation.

If I remember correctly (It’s been years) the fused Goku and Vegeta (Vegeto? Gogeta? I forget) was supposed to be more powerful than even Super Buu by leaps and bounds. The only reason he didn’t just kill Super Buu then and there is because doing so would have irreversibly killed all the people Buu had absorbed (Piccolo, Gohan, etc) – and that was just unacceptable to Goku.

The Fused SSJ3 Gotenks and Trunks was ALSO more powerful than even Kid Buu by leaps and bounds, he was also screwing around the whole fight (he trapped Buu in a little ball, and then played Volleyball with Piccolo!) – unexpectedly running out of power before he could finish the dude off.

Mystic Gohan should have been powerful enough to destroy Buu as well, he didn’t win because Goku just has to be the hero.
It's not clear whether SSJ3 Gotenks was stronger than Kid Buu, or indeed if he was even as strong as SSJ3 Goku (Goku even says he would've killed Fat Buu, he only wanted them to do it to create a new generation of heroes), though it is clear that Mystic Gohan was even stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Moreover Vegetto was even stronger than that, so strong that even Super Buu + Gohan was practically nothing against him. Yeah you remember more or less correctly, Vegetto (neither Goku nor Vegeta) came up with the plan to save the others from Buu.

As for whether Mystic Gohan could have defeated Kid Buu, that's part of what I'm confused about. When SSJ3 fails Goku acts like they've lost, he didn't even think of using Gohan. Moreover Vegeta, who as pointed out above might not have known about Gohan came up with that whole Genki Dama plan instead of using Gohan. It just seems like a stupid plan if Mystic Gohan could've won anyways.

I don't remember that at all. The fact that Buu survived Vegeta's suicide attack in the first place was an enormous unpleasant surprise when King Yama informed him of it (there's a short scene where Vegeta hears this, gets mad and powers up, wrecking King Yama's office as a side effect, and this is only barely before King Yama sends Vegeta back to help), and Goku has to put considerable effort into convincing Vegeta on his first re-arrival into the real world that Buu is stronger now than when Vegeta first fought him.

Edit: The one comment I can remember that might sort of fit with that is where Vegeta says he found out about Goku's SS3. That only says that he's heard some things about Goku's performance in the afterlife, though, not that he's seen anything going on in the living world.
What in the world are you talking about? I just read the whole Buu Saga, none of that happens. Vegeta dies, Vegeta shows up later with Fortune Teller Baba. Nothing happens in between (concerning Vegeta I mean, lots of other stuff happens in the meantime), no destroying Yemma's place or anything like that. Vegeta then tells Goku that he could see him from the afterlife and gets all pissed because Goku kept SS3 secret. What you are describing must be Anime filler.

As far as Vegeta knew, he and Goku were the strongest fighters available by a huge margin. The only way to get someone stronger would be to fuse, and they already irrevocably removed that option. Thus, the only workable idea he can come up with is the super-attack with the normally infeasible powerup time, powered up further by additional sources of energy outside of what he and Goku already have.
Yes that's what you said in the last post, and while it does make sense I'm not sure I buy it. In the manga it is much more clear that Vegeta was watching the whole thing, how could he not know about Mystic Gohan?

[Drolyt]

The entire afterlife tournament along with the Piccolo-clone is filler material to begin with though right? Without researching specific lines and translations I'd not care to say more than that.

Yeah. As for the part about dead people who die again ceasing to exist, the mangaka pulled that out of his ass at the last minute. No foreshadowing or relevance to the plot whatsoever. It's purpose was to show that Vegeta had really become a good guy at last. There had been a lack of tension for a while because the Dragon Balls could just bring anyone back, but this time Vegeta was risking his very existence to save everyone, no reset button. That's proof that he was a true hero.

[Douglas]

What in the world are you talking about? I just read the whole Buu Saga, none of that happens. Vegeta dies, Vegeta shows up later with Fortune Teller Baba. Nothing happens in between (concerning Vegeta I mean, lots of other stuff happens in the meantime), no destroying Yemma's place or anything like that.
I just skimmed through a few of the episodes and found the scene. It's a flashback in the middle of episode 257, The Incredible Fighting Candy. It might be anime filler, I don't know if the manga would interrupt the fight for a conversation between King Yama and Baba while they're watching the fight on King Yama's new wide screen TV (which he got as part of renovating the office to clean up after Vegeta's antics).


Vegeta then tells Goku that he could see him from the afterlife and gets all pissed because Goku kept SS3 secret.
Here's the exact quote from the anime, episode 253 Union of Rivals: "You want my help? You've got some nerve, asking me to help you. You still don't think I know what you did to me? I have traveled to the other world. I know all about your technique, your Super Saiyan 3. You hid it from me during our battle. You allowed me to believe that I could beat you!"

That's the one and only thing he mentions learning while in the afterlife, and he could have picked that up just by hearing about it from any of the numerous fighting partners and spectators Goku had there.

[Drolyt]

Here's the exact quote from the anime, episode 253 Union of Rivals: "You want my help? You've got some nerve, asking me to help you. You still don't think I know what you did to me? I have traveled to the other world. I know all about your technique, your Super Saiyan 3. You hid it from me during our battle. You allowed me to believe that I could beat you!"

That's the one and only thing he mentions learning while in the afterlife, and he could have picked that up just by hearing about it from any of the numerous fighting partners and spectators Goku had there.
Hmm... I don't have time to look at the manga to see if the quote is different, but you are right, that could be interpreted as meaning that Vegeta heard about it in the afterlife, although the whole thing is rather unclear as to whether he even got to the afterlife before being brought back, Picollo was fairly certain he was going to hell.

[leafman]

I've only seen the dubbed show so what I know might be off base.

I think Super Buu might have been near or at the same power level as Kid Buu, but Kid Buu was simply more dangerous because he was an unrestrained pure destructive force, where Super Buu couldn't resist a good challenge and wasn't as focused on destroying planets.

As for why Gohan was kept out of the fight against Kid Buu in the end, I think it was Goku and Vegeta wanting to protect Gohan. Even though through their bravado they might have said they could have beaten Buu, I don't think they were sure and they didn't want to let Gohan be sacrificed in an effort to kill Buu. Also I think it was Goku and Vegeta having a bit of fun competeing to see who could actually do it.