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Adonis1x23
2010-03-16, 01:36 PM
Can a sorcerer with Arcane Preparation, qualify for Ultimate Magus without taking wizard levels?

I know you would get more benefit from being both, but I would rather not multiclass.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 01:41 PM
As written, yes- it just says

"Able to spontaneously cast 1st level spells, able to prepare 2nd level arcane spells from a spellbook"

I'm not sure how the double advancement would work with only one class though.

EDIT: Apparently not..

Douglas
2010-03-16, 01:42 PM
No. The requirement is specifically that you can prepare spells from a spellbook. Arcane Preparation lets a Sorcerer prepare spells, but it doesn't let him use a spellbook.

Indon
2010-03-16, 01:44 PM
No. The requirement is specifically that you can prepare spells from a spellbook. Arcane Preparation lets a Sorcerer prepare spells, but it doesn't let him use a spellbook.

But the other way around is possible with a Wizard who can spontaneously cast a couple of his spells. Spell Mastery isn't worded in a way that makes this work, but I'm sure there has to be some other feat...

Douglas
2010-03-16, 01:47 PM
The Spontaneous Divination ACF for wizards can do it.

unre9istered
2010-03-16, 01:55 PM
Use Spell Mastery and Signature Spell. Signature Spell lets you spontaneously cast one of your mastered spells (like a cleric with healing spells), chosen when you take the feat.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-16, 02:16 PM
Take your first level in a non-spellcasting class and take Magical Training from Player's Guide to Faerun. You now count as a Wizard with 3 level 0 spells and a spellbook for all purposes, this lets you qualify for Precocious Aprentice feat. Now just take 4 level of sorcerer and then Ultimate magus.
As pointed out however the advancement for Wizard will do nothing as there is no Wizard class to advance. But you would advance Sorcerer at every level.

The other way to do this is with the Heroes of Horror Corrupt Arcana feat. But the spellbook you have will only be able to contain Corrupt Spells. :P

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-16, 03:12 PM
Wizard 3
Spontaneous Divinations/Spell Mastery +at least 2 Favoured Spells.

Advance through Ultimate Magus.

By Level 20 you have a maximum CL (assuming no lost CLs) of 27.

Does this allow early Epic Feats coz you hit CL21 early?

AmberVael
2010-03-16, 03:26 PM
Wizard 3
Spontaneous Divinations/Spell Mastery +at least 2 Favoured Spells.
An important requirement of Ultimate Magus is 8 ranks in spellcraft. You're going to need to be at least level 5 without some other form of cheese.


Advance through Ultimate Magus.

By Level 20 you have a maximum CL (assuming no lost CLs) of 27.

Does this allow early Epic Feats coz you hit CL21 early?

Caster level has nothing to do with level. You would not qualify for epic feats.

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-16, 03:28 PM
An important requirement of Ultimate Magus is 8 ranks in spellcraft. You're going to need to be at least level 5 without some other form of cheese.



Caster level has nothing to do with level. You would not qualify for epic feats.

1. That too. I forgot about that, so thanks.

2. Durn it, thanks again.

Adonis1x23
2010-03-16, 05:35 PM
Could a Sorcerer Prc into Chameleon and take UM levels?

Edit: Nevermind, I don't have my books handy, but I think I would lose caster levels.

JerichoPenumbra
2010-03-16, 09:56 PM
1. Ultimate Magus can apparently be gone into without wizard or wu-jen levels with the suggested cheese present. But the real question is WHY!?!?. Almost all of the abilities are dependent on having a spellbook or spells from more than one source.

2. Unless your DM is being bribed, I'm pretty sure they would let a double advancement of a single class would work even if you did cheese your way through the preqs.

The features are in fact worded as having to be more than one arcane spell casting class.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-16, 10:02 PM
Could a Sorcerer Prc into Chameleon and take UM levels?

Edit: Nevermind, I don't have my books handy, but I think I would lose caster levels.

Yes. And yes you would lose caster levels. Well, level. Just one.

Adonis1x23
2010-03-16, 10:50 PM
I wouldn't expect for the levels to stack just for the one. I just kind of wanted the bonus feats and other benefits that don't deal with having two classes.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-16, 11:54 PM
1. Ultimate Magus can apparently be gone into without wizard or wu-jen levels with the suggested cheese present. But the real question is WHY!?!?. Almost all of the abilities are dependent on having a spellbook or spells from more than one source.

2. Unless your DM is being bribed, I'm pretty sure they would let a double advancement of a single class would work even if you did cheese your way through the preqs.

The features are in fact worded as having to be more than one arcane spell casting class.

I'd hardly call it cheese.. unless, yes, you change the rules to allow a double advancement, then I'd call it a whole lot worse than cheese. lol.

You can enter the class under RAW with only one spell-caster class, but you will only gain advancement of one class at a time.

Entering it with a Sorcerer with the Corrupt Arcana feat means that you can use the bonus spells to get free Corrupt spells into your spellbook. That is about the only real benefit I can see.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-17, 04:03 AM
Phaerimm Ultimate Magus with cheesed dual advancement from UM?

Although, it only gets you 9ths a single level earlier.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-17, 07:31 AM
I can see an advantage of using one class to qualify.....to apply the benefits to another class that doesn't qualify.

A Sorcerer/Nar Demonbinder/Ultimate Magus, for example.

The Nar Demonbinder is a spontaneous caster, but doesn't have 1st level spells to met the requirement of UM (kinda a strange class, gets independent casting of 4th-8th level spells).

So you have two options, add 1st level spells to the Nar Demonbinder list (by, say, taking Arcane Disciple) or meet the prereqs without using ND spellcasting, but apply the benefits to ND.

So a Sorcerer with Corrupt Arcana meets the prereq of 1st level spontaneous spells AND 2nd level prepared spells (from spellbook), but UM will advance Sorcerer and Nar Demonbinder.

Or Warmage/Sorcerer/UM, Bequiler/Dread Necromancer, or whatever.

A follow up question, the Corrupt Arcana gives you the ability to prepare 2nd level spells from a spellbook. If one of your players was using this feat to qualify, would you require him to actually have a spellbook with corrupt spells in it? It seems to me that you meet the pre-req without actually having the book, you can prepare such spells. You just don't have access to any at the time.

Its kinda like if a wizard lost his spellbook and so couldn't prepare any spells. He still meets spellcasting requirements as he still has the ability, just not the availability if that makes sense.

Thurbane
2010-03-17, 09:13 PM
But the other way around is possible with a Wizard who can spontaneously cast a couple of his spells. Spell Mastery isn't worded in a way that makes this work, but I'm sure there has to be some other feat...
Uncanny Forethought from EoE works, too.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-18, 05:09 AM
I can see an advantage of using one class to qualify.....to apply the benefits to another class that doesn't qualify.

A Sorcerer/Nar Demonbinder/Ultimate Magus, for example.

The Nar Demonbinder is a spontaneous caster, but doesn't have 1st level spells to met the requirement of UM (kinda a strange class, gets independent casting of 4th-8th level spells).

So you have two options, add 1st level spells to the Nar Demonbinder list (by, say, taking Arcane Disciple) or meet the prereqs without using ND spellcasting, but apply the benefits to ND.

So a Sorcerer with Corrupt Arcana meets the prereq of 1st level spontaneous spells AND 2nd level prepared spells (from spellbook), but UM will advance Sorcerer and Nar Demonbinder.

Or Warmage/Sorcerer/UM, Bequiler/Dread Necromancer, or whatever.

A follow up question, the Corrupt Arcana gives you the ability to prepare 2nd level spells from a spellbook. If one of your players was using this feat to qualify, would you require him to actually have a spellbook with corrupt spells in it? It seems to me that you meet the pre-req without actually having the book, you can prepare such spells. You just don't have access to any at the time.

Its kinda like if a wizard lost his spellbook and so couldn't prepare any spells. He still meets spellcasting requirements as he still has the ability, just not the availability if that makes sense.

Yeah I get what you are saying there and agree. In that context it gets pretty powerful.

As for the last bit about Corrupt Arcana, under RAW I'd say yes. But for fluff, if I was a DM I'd require he had the spellbook with at least one spell of the required level that he can cast. That said he wouldn't need to actually cast it, and there is nothing stopping him taking Scribe Scroll as a feat and buying a level 2 Corrupt spell on a scroll with starting cash and putting it into the book. lol.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:40 AM
what if you take a level 0 apprentice level for a second class? then get the dual progression?

Gaiyamato
2010-03-18, 06:39 AM
what if you take a level 0 apprentice level for a second class? then get the dual progression?

You won't get any advancement for spellcasting. Needs to be an actual spellcasting class with spellcasting progression.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 06:48 AM
You won't get any advancement for spellcasting. Needs to be an actual spellcasting class with spellcasting progression.

shame... still, a 1 level dip for dual progression casting is actually worthwhile.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-18, 06:56 AM
shame... still, a 1 level dip for dual progression casting is actually worthwhile.

Also remember that UM is not perfect Dual progression. It only advances the lowest class at level 1 and 4. Which means the higher class is losing two levels.
So it will wind up being the same as a 3 level dip. Might as well be an Arcane Heirophant.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 06:58 AM
Also remember that UM is not perfect Dual progression. It only advances the lowest class at level 1 and 4. Which means the higher class is losing two levels.
So it will wind up being the same as a 3 level dip. Might as well be an Arcane Heirophant.

ah, an important distinction... definitely not worth it then. get another dual progression you can trick your way into by level 2 then.

Androgeus
2010-03-18, 08:24 AM
ah, an important distinction... definitely not worth it then. get another dual progression you can trick your way into by level 2 then.

by taking Practiced Spellcaster for the lower level caster, you can give the single advancment to your 'main' spellcasting instead

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-18, 08:33 AM
The 1st, 4th, and 7th levels of UM advance only one spellcasting class, and it's always the one with the lowest caster level. As Androgeus said, you can get Practiced Spellcaster for the one you're willing to lose more levels of and you can increase your primary spellcasting class at those levels. Note that with a 1/4/10 build you'd still end up increasing the secondary class at UM 7, though going Illumian with the Krau sigil will get around that and even help out the caster level of your primary class. If you go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10 you can even get Able Learner to keep up your ranks in those nice Beguiler skills.

Another option would be to pick up one level of Spellthief with the feat Master Spellthief. Not only would your classes be at the same caster level, they would actually get an abnormally high caster level once you got into the dual progression. Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 2/ UM 10 could work if you take Versatile Spellcaster and learn at least one 2nd level Wizard spell before 3rd level. Versatile Spellcaster should be a part of any UM build anyway, since it allows you to use your spontaneous spellcasting to cast any Wizard spell you've learned, adding considerable versatility to the character.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-18, 08:53 AM
by taking Practiced Spellcaster for the lower level caster, you can give the single advancment to your 'main' spellcasting instead

Yeah that works.

I was just looking at this for an idea though:


Wizard 1 - Conjurer Specialist - UA Conjurer Specialist ACF
Feats: Sacrificial Mastery, Malign Spell Focus, Precocious Aprentice, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augmented Summoning
Wizard 2
Master Specialist 1 (+ Wizard)
Feats: Evil Brand, Skill Focus (spellcraft)
Master Specialist 2 (+ Wizard)
Master Specialist 3 (+ Wizard)
Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Demonologist 1
Feat: some metamagic feat
Demonologist 2
Demonologist 3
Tainted Scholar 1 (+ Demonologist)
Feat: Practised Spellcaster (Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 1 (+ Wizard)
Ultimate Magus 2 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 3 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feat: Eldritch Corruption
Ultimate Magus 4 (+ Wizard)
Ultimate Magus 5 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feat: any metamagic
Ultimate Magus 6 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feat: Practised Spellcaster (Wizard)
Ultimate Magus 7 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 8 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 9 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feats: any 1 metamagic + Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Ultimate Magus 10 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Archmage 1 (+ Wizard)

Your main caster would be a level 17 wizard in effect at level 20. But you would also have a level 10 (12 actually) Demonologist.
I think this could be tweaked a little better if the Tainted Scholar was moved up a couple of levels.
Also all that metamgaic and existing cheese is calling out for incantatrix.

Maybe even grab one level of Nar Demonbinder and use that with the last 2 bonus levels from UM that are wasted on the Demonologist?

Move Eldritch Corruption to the last feat slot and take Iron Will. Grab one level of Nar after the level 8 increase. should be Wizard (highest) and Nar (lowest) at that point.

So you get Wizard 17/Demonologist 10/Nar Demon Binder 3 casting levels.
Yes.. that sounds better.
You Wizard CL would be: 24 Wizard/19 Demonologist/Demon Binder 8.

Drop Eldritch Corruption entirely and take the level 18 feat as Practised Spellcaster (Nar Demonbinder) and it would have a CL of 12.

On top of all that Summon Monster would count as being a Summon monster 2 levels higher (so Summon monster I counts as a Summon Monster III).

So you get this:


Wizard 1 - Conjurer Specialist - UA Conjurer Specialist ACF
Feats: Sacrificial Mastery, Malign Spell Focus, Precocious Aprentice, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augmented Summoning
Wizard 2
Master Specialist 1 (+ Wizard)
Feats: Evil Brand, Skill Focus (spellcraft)
Master Specialist 2 (+ Wizard)
Master Specialist 3 (+ Wizard)
Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Demonologist 1
Feat: any metamagic
Demonologist 2
Demonologist 3
Tainted Scholar 1 (+ Demonologist)
Feat: Practised Spellcaster (Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 1 (+ Wizard)
Ultimate Magus 2 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 3 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feat: Iron will
Ultimate Magus 4 (+ Wizard)
Ultimate Magus 5 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feat: any metamagic
Ultimate Magus 6 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Feat: Practised Spellcaster (Wizard)
Ultimate Magus 7 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Ultimate Magus 8 (+ Wizard) (+ Demonologist)
Nar Demon Binder 1
Feats: any 1 metamagic + Practised Spellcaster (Nar Demon Binder)
Ultimate Magus 9 (+ Wizard) (+ Nar Demon Binder)
Ultimate Magus 10 (+ Wizard) (+ Nar Demon Binder)


And what is crazier is that this is NOT an abuse of the UM class. All as RAW, except maybe some possible semantics around Precocious Apprentice to get into Master Specialist at level 3. But you could just take 5 levels of Wizard if needed and the rest of this build would work. lol.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-18, 12:13 PM
Thats another reason I like Nar Demonbinder. Its caster level is ND level+CL from another class. So it should always be the higer CL. Even if you get a CL increase on the other class, it will indirectly boost your Demonbinder CL.

And since it has a separate progression, and is only 8 (I think) levels long, it fits perfectly into UM (which would give it only +7 levels spellcasting) with a one level dip.