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randomhero00
2010-03-16, 02:38 PM
For instance, having ring of blades cast, forgetting, and healing someone (ring of blades does damage to anyone who you go near, healing is touch ranged...)

Another example, you drop your magical primary weapon to draw out something else quickly during combat, but forget to say you picked it up afterward.

Do you redo the action? Live with the consequences? I mean, your character would have never shredded someone to heal them, or left his primary weapon behind. I've always thought the story should stick to what your character would have realistically done. But I've played with a couple DMs that make you live with the consequences.

Choco
2010-03-16, 02:42 PM
Live with the consequences. I honestly cannot say the character would have never done it either, even professionals who do the same thing for a living every day sometimes make stupid mistakes. It just adds to the fun of the game :smallwink:

DeltaEmil
2010-03-16, 02:44 PM
For instance, having ring of blades cast, forgetting, and healing someone (ring of blades does damage to anyone who you go near, healing is touch ranged...)

Another example, you drop your magical primary weapon to draw out something else quickly during combat, but forget to say you picked it up afterward.

Do you redo the action? Live with the consequences? I mean, your character would have never shredded someone to heal them, or left his primary weapon behind. I've always thought the story should stick to what your character would have realistically done. But I've played with a couple DMs that make you live with the consequences.Redo and tell GMs who are being assinine to stop being a jerk.
Of course, a player shouldn't abuse redoing actions all the time either.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-16, 02:47 PM
There really can't be generalized rules for roleplaying. It has to be worked out on a case-by-case basis with your DM. The reason being that 'What your character would have done' is not a game mechanic, it is acting.

That said, I see three immediate options.

- Assume that your character isn't actually that forgetful, and fiat the action away. More difficult the more time has passed since you took that action. (As a variant, use an Intelligence or Wisdom check to avoid absentmindedness).

- Enforce that whatever actions are taken in the game were absolutely taken, and live with the consequences.

- Roleplay along with it. This is similar to the 2nd method, but instead of making a big deal of how your character 'should' have acted, allow that your character isn't perfect and made a mistake. In this case, the absentmindedness of the character is in character, and becoming aware of/correcting it is part of your character's growth.

jiriku
2010-03-16, 02:47 PM
As a DM, whenever the player makes a mistake that would make his character look like a bone-headed idiot (like the examples you mentioned), I assume that his character is not a bone-headed idiot and remembered to do the obvious. Most people play D&D as a wish-fulfillment game, and they have fun when their characters are awesome. It frustrates and upsets them if they're made to feel foolish.

As the DM, it's my job to ensure that the players are having a good time, y'see.

Occasionally, you'll run across players who enjoy seeing their characters fail, but in this case, it's not necessary to play "gotcha!" with them -- they'll cause their characters to fail on purpose.

Defiant
2010-03-16, 02:49 PM
Redo and tell GMs who are being assinine to stop being a jerk.
Of course, a player shouldn't abuse redoing actions all the time either.

I agree with this. Making a 10th level player lose his +3 weapon just because he forgot to say he picks it up, is needlessly harsh.

Starscream
2010-03-16, 02:51 PM
As the DM I would warn the player that their actions are going to have unintended consequences.

As a player, I would heed any warnings from the DM.

ericgrau
2010-03-16, 02:56 PM
It depends whether it's merely a mistake, or dependent on knowledge that the character really should have. Of course, this works both ways and you shouldn't metagame with player knowledge either.

Remmirath
2010-03-16, 02:56 PM
Usually I'd make them roll an intelligence (or whatever other appropriate stat) check to see if their character remembered. If I was the player, I'd probably ask for that.

Unless it was something very, very obvious, like the blade barrier example. Somebody might forget to pick up their 50' of rope after climbing back up a cliff, but they're not too likely to forget they have whirling blades circling in front of them.

If it's a situation such as they have only three rounds to get out before the whole dungeon explodes, I'd probably assume the character was just in too much of a hurry.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 03:12 PM
Usually I'd make them roll an intelligence (or whatever other appropriate stat) check to see if their character remembered. If I was the player, I'd probably ask for that.


Ya, but even if the character was dumb and he left his weapon on the ground, another party member would have said something (maybe a higher DC but even in a time pressing situation). Same goes for the twirling blades, I think the guy being healed would be screaming "WTF!" as you come closer. Besides, leaving a magical weapon on the ground is like forgetting you drove to the mall and walking home. It just isn't going to happen. Any combatant worth his salt feels it when he loses his primary means of defense.

Now the rope example and if there was a pressing time limit I can see. But even then I think its fair for everyone to roll an intelligence (actually wisdom would make more sense) check to see if they all forgot about the incredibly expensive magic item glowing on the ground in front of them. Or forgot somehow that they had just used their rope and their pack is now 15lbs lighter.

Godskook
2010-03-16, 03:16 PM
I'd go with the rules, or rather, an extension of the rules, in this case. The skill rules state that you can 'take 10' on most actions if you aren't threatened or rushed. Taking '10' means success, more times than most. Thus, with every-day activity, I'd assume, both as a player and a DM, that characters are 'taking 10' in their actions unless the scene prevents them from doing so, including for things that have no mechanical meaning to 'taking 10' such as remembering your favorite weapon.

Drop your sword during the fight with the dragon, but win? You retrieve your sword in the 'unwritten IC' time.

Drop your sword during the fight with the BBEG, win, but his entire honor guard is entering the chamber and you need to teleport or die? If you don't grab the sword, its gone.

Optimystik
2010-03-16, 03:17 PM
- Assume that your character isn't actually that forgetful, and fiat the action away. More difficult the more time has passed since you took that action. (As a variant, use an Intelligence or Wisdom check to avoid absentmindedness).

- Enforce that whatever actions are taken in the game were absolutely taken, and live with the consequences.

- Roleplay along with it. This is similar to the 2nd method, but instead of making a big deal of how your character 'should' have acted, allow that your character isn't perfect and made a mistake. In this case, the absentmindedness of the character is in character, and becoming aware of/correcting it is part of your character's growth.

I'd have to agree with all three of these, as they cover the widest range of possible characters.

Nero24200
2010-03-16, 03:20 PM
In my main group we generally go by the "If it's not called, just go with it rule".

For instance, last week I was playing a druid with an Amulet of Mighty Fists and Improved Unarmed Strike. When some foes caught the party off-guard (and unarmed) my character charged in and started throwing punches. For the first few rounds I actually forgot the take into account the Amulet for the purposes of attacks and damage rolls. I then pointed out the mistake, to which the universal respons was "Remember it for your furture attacks".

So basically if you forget something and no one remembers, we just ignore it unless it would cause some huge inconsistancy or problem (for instance, we wouldn't take back the Amulet, since it would only amount to a few extra points of damage against a foe that I took down easily anyway, but forgetting a Death Ward spell after dying from a death effect we'd still take back).

Myou
2010-03-16, 03:22 PM
As the DM I would warn the player that their actions are going to have unintended consequences.

As a player, I would heed any warnings from the DM.

This. I remind players if they're about to do something stupid that their character should know better about.

Barbarian MD
2010-03-16, 03:26 PM
I'd say redo.

Imagine--you've got blades whirling around your body, and now you go to heal someone? You're going to see the blades flying. And so will everyone else in the party. Someone would say, "Look out for those blades!"

If it's the GM that notices it, then so be it. But it destroys realism in my mind to do otherwise.

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 03:31 PM
In my main group we generally go by the "If it's not called, just go with it rule".

For instance, last week I was playing a druid with an Amulet of Mighty Fists and Improved Unarmed Strike. When some foes caught the party off-guard (and unarmed) my character charged in and started throwing punches. For the first few rounds I actually forgot the take into account the Amulet for the purposes of attacks and damage rolls. I then pointed out the mistake, to which the universal respons was "Remember it for your furture attacks".


I can understand that only if you're doing it for reasons of making the mechanics go faster. Even I have my limits, like we're not going back 5 rounds to add in extra damage and figure out how things would have changed. But in the game, it happened. Your druid was doing more damage. So so long as it doesn't negatively affect your time or the flow of things, I don't see why you wouldn't add in the extra damage.

I believe that everyone should play by the same rules. So for instance, what if your DM was following a module and mistakenly put in several extra monsters and rolled a crit when he shouldn't have? "Sorry guys, I can't take it back, you all die. Please reroll." I mean it should go both ways. If what you say (or didn't say) happens, then adding up your damage "wrong" would also apply. I do "2,000 damage...Oops I meant 20, but I can't take it back..."

jmbrown
2010-03-16, 03:43 PM
Most of these "mistakes" seem to be made in combat which, in my games, is no holds barred. Combat isn't a simultaneous experience as it is at the game table. You have multiple things happening at once, all of it within a 6 second span, and you don't have time to think but act.

Imagine a bunch of giants fifty feet in front of you are bearing down to crush you. Bow in hand you have time to fire a single arrow before dropping it and drawing your sword. A hail of boulders comes flying in every direction and you barely dodge it as a club slams beside you which sends a trembling vibration through your thighs. Several attacks nearly knock the wind of out of your lungs, you're completely surrounded, your allies are retreating, and you turn to run in kind leaving your bow cast off to the side.

A player will complain that his "character" would never leave a weapon behind. Since the character is an extension of the player, the reality of the situation is that his "character" valued his own life more than a bow. If the reverse were true he wouldn't have forgotten it.

I don't care about retries for new players but most of the guys I play with have a year plus under their belts. If they do something dumb accidentally then, well, accidents happen. Keep moving.

Knaight
2010-03-16, 04:00 PM
It depends on the situation. In the one above, yeah you forgot your bow. If you finish everyone off, then sitting down for a second, patching up, retrieving equipment, etc, is just assumed. Forget to apply a modifier, tough.

And I would warn people if they were doing something really stupid, simply because the characters have a better knowledge of the scene than the players, what with vision instead of description. So there would be an "are you sure you want to heal him with blade barrier up" or some such before the healing. Or "Are you actually charging the heavily armored spear men with your horse while they are still in formation?"

randomhero00
2010-03-16, 04:00 PM
Actually in all my examples I was thinking out of combat. Yeah, its different if you're in combat and have to flee and can't spare the action. I doubt anyone is contesting that.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-16, 04:06 PM
A player will complain that his "character" would never leave a weapon behind. Since the character is an extension of the player, the reality of the situation is that his "character" valued his own life more than a bow. If the reverse were true he wouldn't have forgotten it.If it's a magically enchanted bow that is needed to kill the giants, then no, he wouldn't forget it, unless the player wanted to play a comical buffoon.
Especially if it's a magically enchanted weapon, because most GMs are the kind who think that fighters and similar character types are not allowed nice things, and must pay dearly for not being a wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid.

Of course, as the GM you're also going to have to explain why you arbitrarily decided that the character dropped his weapon and didn't pick it up automatically while convincing the player that it wasn't a move to screw him over.

It's the same as when a GM declared that the little girl who was saved by the heroes died from thirst because the players forgot about her the next week and didn't say that they would give her something to eat and drink, as they were busy planning an ambush on a bandit camp.

GolemsVoice
2010-03-16, 04:08 PM
We handle it this way. If it is something that would have done additional damage, but you forgot, and it's no longer your round, than it's very likely the damage will not get re-added. If it's still your turn, no problem.
Status effects can be applied at any time you remember them ("oh, by the way, that guy is also dazed. I've just read it"), but will of course not retroactively be worked into the game.
In cases like the blade barrier example: Combat in D&D is incredibly different for a character, and for the player. In the ca. 5 seconds that everybody ingame casts spells, swings hiss word, activates something or does whatever people do in combat, the players will go to the toilet, talk to each other, figure out their multiple attacks, be re-reading their special abilites etc, and these 5 seconds might very well be minutes, especially at higher levels. Thus, whenever somebody forgets something like this, and the GM spots it, he will remind him that his character would likely know this (same thing when the player steers the character into a room that is trapped and the players explicitely know wher the trap is, etc..).

kladams707
2010-03-16, 04:09 PM
For instance, having ring of blades cast, forgetting, and healing someone (ring of blades does damage to anyone who you go near, healing is touch ranged...)

Another example, you drop your magical primary weapon to draw out something else quickly during combat, but forget to say you picked it up afterward.

Do you redo the action? Live with the consequences? I mean, your character would have never shredded someone to heal them, or left his primary weapon behind. I've always thought the story should stick to what your character would have realistically done. But I've played with a couple DMs that make you live with the consequences.

Live w/ the consequences. To err is human(oid) after all.

I made this mistake once. I was playing an RSoP and at one point my group (which eventually included a half-vamp) and I ended up working w/ a good-aligned vampire (in-game quest turned him from evil to good). At one point we (including the vamp) were all surrounded by undead. And I used my positive energy burst to do damage to all undead w/in 100 feet. Guess which two undead got upset at me?

valadil
2010-03-16, 04:26 PM
Depends but most of my groups assume players forget things their characters wouldn't. If you drop your sword mid battle there's gonna be a sword on the ground until you leave the scene. That sort of thing is hard to miss. But your average RP group isn't going to do anything to keep track of it. Maybe they'll draw the sword on the map (which is relevant if you move and want to pick it up later) but most of the time it's ignored. I don't think it's fair to screw over the players like this if there's no cue to tell them the sword is still on the ground.

Knaight
2010-03-16, 04:29 PM
See, that is a reasonable panic situation. Had this been after the battle, it would have been a little different. Plus, I would rule very differently on forgetting to specify something and specifying something stupid. If you forget to say "I eat periodically" or "I open the door" when saying "We travel to point X" or "We leave through door Y", I certainly wouldn't hold it against you. Needing to specify that in the first place is indicative of a GM being needlessly picky.

Last Laugh
2010-03-16, 04:37 PM
As far as dropping weaponry and items I would assume they are recovered during the looting phase.
heck if the DM tries to screw you out of it you can point out he didn't even mention it when you looted the bodies.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-16, 04:46 PM
Depends somewhat on the situation, and the media in use for the game.

In my OpenRPG game, when someone in the group says they're doing something that's colossally stupid for reasons they don't know about yet, I'll usually wait a bit to see what other people are trying, and process them out of order, then ask the Pixie's player to confirm that he wants to walk into the black void after the other player has tossed a pebble in, and gotten the "no noise" result back. He confirmed. Oh well. If it's something that would be obviously stupid, I tend to flat out ask "are you sure". In certain cases, I'll ask for an Int/Wis/Cha check (whichever's lowest for the character) vs. DC 10. If it's forgetting to mention something minor (e.g., picking your bow back up after combat when you had dropped it to draw your sword when the enemy got into close range; not declaring when you stop and eat, and so on), I'm not going to sweat it when I notice.

In PbP, things are harder. If you stop and question stupid tactical decisions, you've got a problem: a 0-24 hour delay (sometimes more), before you get a revision of the action. That causes problems in battle. So generally, if I've posted say, the ceiling height of 20 feet, the size of the opponents (Large), and noting that they've got reach, and the flying Wizard says he goes over them, he soaks the appropriate AoO's (fortunately, he was merely driven unconscious, rather than killed outright... from full health) because there's no particularly useful way to filter "calculated risk" from "forgetful recklessness". For the simple forgetting to mention of obviously minor things (e.g., picking your bow back up after combat when you had dropped it to draw your sword when the enemy got into close range; not declaring when you stop and eat, and so on), I'm not going to sweat it when I notice.

Saph
2010-03-16, 05:09 PM
It depends on whether it's stupid, or just forgetful.

If the action is really, obviously stupid, then I'll tell the player exactly what he's about to do and give him a second chance. Example: moving to heal a dying ally when you're surrounded by a whirling ring of spiky death rates about a 10/10 on the Sliding Scale of Stupidity because the blades are right in front of you and you'd have to be borderline retarded to forget something like that in real life.

If the action is only dubious/risky, that's a different story. Example: taking an AoO to move into a better tactical position. Note that in cases like this everyone's perception of it will probably depend on how it turns out. If the guy gets criticalled on the AoO everyone will remember it as a stupid mistake. If the AoO misses and the movement works, everyone will remember it as a great idea.

If it's just a matter of the character being forgetful, though, then that's just too bad. Example: if the enemy spellcaster casts shield, and three rounds later you magic missile him, then no, you don't get to take the action back when you see the missiles bounce off the shield - it just means your character isn't infallible at processing combat information. (I once had a player do exactly this and then insist he should be allowed to take it back because his character had a high Intelligence.)

In general the way I decide it is by looking at it from the IC point of view - how does it look to the character? If it's something the characters couldn't possibly miss, like a sword left behind in the middle of the room, then they should get a reminder. If it's something that depends on having a good memory which could be easily forgotten in real life, then it's up to the players.

krossbow
2010-03-16, 05:17 PM
As for the example of not picking up the weapon; Does your DM also make them suffocate if they don't say they're breathing? :smalltongue:

There are just some things that should be assumed, IMO

Grumman
2010-03-16, 05:23 PM
It is an inherent flaw of pen and paper roleplaying that the player has to make decisions for their character, but only has limited access to the information their character would use to make those decisions. If the DM does not provide obvious and relevant information (like "there are whirling metal blades between you and the person you want to heal") to the player, they aren't doing their job properly.

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 05:25 PM
As for the example of not picking up the weapon; Does your DM also make them suffocate if they don't say they're breathing? :smalltongue:

There are just some things that should be assumed, IMO

Completely diferent. People forget behind stuff all the time, and it doesn't kill them. Not breathing kills you, so anyone dumb enough to don't do it will quickly end up dead, so evolution makes you much harder to forget, but forgeting your wallet/cellphone/pen/book/card is quite common.

Most of my DMs would enforce that kind of reasoning. If you're throwing weapons or are disarmed, you then need to state you're picking them up. Altough you can state you pick everything usefull from the ground. You'll quickly learn to do it after every ecounter.

Knaight
2010-03-16, 05:53 PM
Altough you can state you pick everything usefull from the ground. You'll quickly learn to do it after every ecounter.

At which point, you might as well just assume it at this point. Otherwise you waste time.

Ethdred
2010-03-16, 06:55 PM
My players have made up a sheet of paper with the words 'Loot the bodies' on, which they wave after every combat

Generally, I try to let things slide, but if I've made the boo-boo it's harder. I usually just admit I was wrong but say that it stands for that instance, if any time has passed and it wasn't too serious. Though one time I did a whole D&D 3.5 combat where I was allowing the wolverines to full attack on a charge. Our (other) resident munchkin was absent that session so no-one picked up on it, and it ended in a TPK. Or it would have done, but they were down to the last one or two characters and I suddenly realised what I'd done, so I had to re-run the combat. It was still tough, but not that bad!

Emmerask
2010-03-16, 07:16 PM
For instance, having ring of blades cast, forgetting, and healing someone (ring of blades does damage to anyone who you go near, healing is touch ranged...)

Another example, you drop your magical primary weapon to draw out something else quickly during combat, but forget to say you picked it up afterward.

Do you redo the action? Live with the consequences? I mean, your character would have never shredded someone to heal them, or left his primary weapon behind. I've always thought the story should stick to what your character would have realistically done. But I've played with a couple DMs that make you live with the consequences.

First example I would ask if he/she really wants to do that... if its still a yes then he/she has to live with the consequences.

My players donīt have to tell me every trivial act picking up their weapons after a fight (if possible) is a given for me, they donīt have to tell me that they take a breath every x seconds too :smallwink:

Ormur
2010-03-16, 07:45 PM
If some player forgot to mention that he picked up his +5 flaming sword of greatness after dropping it I'd let it slide unless the situation was that much more confused. But I wouldn't let them loot the bodies after having left the battlefield (unless they turned back of course). Picking up a weapon is something that can be easily retconed, looting your enemies and suddenly ending up with a lot of their stuff is more dubious.

ken-do-nim
2010-03-16, 08:09 PM
I nearly quit a game where I kept reminding other players of obvious things they were forgetting and the DM kept telling me to shut up. In his view if the player forgot then it was too bad. For instance, I'd remind the other players that they had bull strength on and had +2 to damage, or that they had fire shield on and they needed to roll damage for the monster that attacked them.

Dust
2010-03-16, 09:08 PM
As the DM I would warn the player that their actions are going to have unintended consequences.

As a player, I would heed any warnings from the DM.
If both players and GM forget, then it's not an issue and proceed normally.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-16, 09:26 PM
I nearly quit a game where I kept reminding other players of obvious things they were forgetting and the DM kept telling me to shut up. In his view if the player forgot then it was too bad. For instance, I'd remind the other players that they had bull strength on and had +2 to damage, or that they had fire shield on and they needed to roll damage for the monster that attacked them.

In other words, the DM was cheating.

I'm surprised you didn't quit.

Zeful
2010-03-16, 10:13 PM
Situations: If a player drops a weapon to draw another, if he picks it up again is up to how the fight resolves. If the character is dropped down a pit that leads to a channel that puts him 300+ ft away from the weapon, then he's not getting it back until he walks his butt over there and gets it. This also covers strategic withdraws and retreats. If he doesn't say he picks it up, he's not going to. If he wins or whatever, then he doesn't have to say it, though if he managed to make them run away, he might end up having his weapon stolen.

As for trying to heal someone with something like Blade Barrier between the two people I'm going to point it out the first time it happens with a warning that I'm not going to point it out again; pay attention.

Taelas
2010-03-17, 02:20 AM
There's no way the character would not notice the whirling blades of death even if the player does. Don't be an ass. "You still have blade barrier up" is not exactly a hard thing to say, even if you have to do so repeatedly. There are limits, but honestly...

If the situation permits them to retrieve fallen weaponry, I don't sweat it if they forget to say they picked it up. If it doesn't permit it, they obviously won't get them back unless they change the situation, but I might throw in a reminder that they're leaving behind their weapons, assuming it hasn't already come up.

Emmerask
2010-03-17, 02:55 AM
There's no way the character would not notice the whirling blades of death even if the player does. Don't be an ass. "You still have blade barrier up" is not exactly a hard thing to say, even if you have to do so repeatedly. There are limits, but honestly...

If the situation permits them to retrieve fallen weaponry, I don't sweat it if they forget to say they picked it up. If it doesn't permit it, they obviously won't get them back unless they change the situation, but I might throw in a reminder that they're leaving behind their weapons, assuming it hasn't already come up.

In the heat of battle even trained professionals make stupid mistakes :smallbiggrin:If they donīt get the hint "do you really want to do that" then clearly their pc just made such a mistake ^^ but maybe I am an ass ^^

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-17, 03:29 AM
In the heat of battle even trained professionals make stupid mistakes :smallbiggrin:If they donīt get the hint "do you really want to do that" then clearly their pc just made such a mistake ^^ but maybe I am an ass ^^

I don't see the point of dancing around it.

Emmerask
2010-03-17, 03:36 AM
I don't see the point of dancing around it.

Learning to keep track of their stuff for one :smallwink:
People learn best out of their mistakes if there is a safety net learning takes considerably longer or never at all ^^

Superglucose
2010-03-17, 04:04 AM
It depends on the situation. In quite a few situations it's quickly and best covered up with an ooc "Lol that was out of character, not in character" retcon. Sometimes you have to let the action stand though.

A general rule of thumb I have is this: if it would only affect your character, then you have to live with the consequences. If the main effect is to screw over one or more other players at the table (or their characters), then you can retcon.

Vangor
2010-03-17, 04:33 AM
Several attacks nearly knock the wind of out of your lungs, you're completely surrounded, your allies are retreating, and you turn to run in kind leaving your bow cast off to the side.

A player will complain that his "character" would never leave a weapon behind.

If you drop your bow rather than taking the time to properly secure during an attack and the situation calls for you to flee, the bow will probably be left if retrieving would be difficult. However, if you drop your bow rather than taking the time to properly secure during an attack and you all made swift work of the dumb creatures...you probably did simply leave the bow behind after talking amongst your party and thinking to investigate the hall the giants did not come from.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-17, 10:49 AM
I often live with the consequence, except cases that would cause too much trouble for everyone, and was something you are still doing as in "no, no, wait, I can't get near my friend, I won't heal him now". But something like "oh crap, I should have Greater Turned those ghols last turn instead of attacking" are not allowed to be "redone".

jiriku
2010-03-17, 11:35 AM
Part of the responsibility for managing details may fall on player memory, but much of it also lies on the DM's environmental description.

Remember the text-based adventure games from back in the 80's? Every time you typed the "look" command, the game described everything in your environment, and left the description there on the screen for you to refer back to.

Unless playing via IM or PbP, there's no written description to refer back to in D&D. The DM thus has the obligation to refresh that description via spoken reminders.

When the cleric's forgetful player approaches his ally, the DM should describe: "As you approach your mortally wounded friend, the whirling blades around you flash dangerously close to him. A few steps more will bring him into the spell's effect. In his condition, this would surely be fatal." A pro-active DM might also prompt, "How are you planning to get close enough to heal him without killing him on the blades?"

After the dust settles from a chaotic battle, the DM should describe: "Broken goblinoid corpses litter the chamber, along with the charred and blackened corpse of the troll you burned to death. Dropped melee weapons and throwing weapons litter the area, including the troll's adamantine greatsword and you're ranger's bow. Further, there are a few spent arrows lying about that are probably still in serviceable condition if you retrieve them." Again, a pro-active DM could ask "Are you guys going to retrieve your weapons and loot the fallen as you usually do?"

If you aren't giving vivid descriptions with these kinds of crucial details, I have to ask, why are you witholding critical information from your players?