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View Full Version : [3.5] Tsochar - Anyone used them?



arguskos
2010-03-16, 04:18 PM
What it says on the tin. Has anyone used the Tsochar, from Lords of Madness, and if so, how'd they play? Were they pretty good at being assassins and infiltrators?

Further, a Tsochar related query: what happens when they are inhabiting a host, and the host is killed? Let's assume the tsochar survives the damage that killed the host. Are they forced out of the host? It doesn't say anywhere I could find what happens.

Jergmo
2010-03-16, 05:03 PM
The Tsochar takes half the damage that the host takes - presumably it chooses to evacuate the host when it dies, but I didn't see anything about automatic expelling.

arguskos
2010-03-16, 05:09 PM
The Tsochar takes half the damage that the host takes - presumably it chooses to evacuate the host when it dies, but I didn't see anything about automatic expelling.
Which was my wonder. I have this great mental image of it remaining in the host, then popping out onto someone else like a macabre jack-in-the-box when they go to loot the corpse, but the rules don't seem to have an opinion on this topic (somewhat of an oversight, IMO).

My other thought was that the tsochar could perform a replace when the host dies, so that they can keep fighting even though the host is technically dead. I thought that might be suitably creepy, but again, not sure the rules support it.

Jergmo
2010-03-16, 05:17 PM
Which was my wonder. I have this great mental image of it remaining in the host, then popping out onto someone else like a macabre jack-in-the-box when they go to loot the corpse, but the rules don't seem to have an opinion on this topic (somewhat of an oversight, IMO).

My other thought was that the tsochar could perform a replace when the host dies, so that they can keep fighting even though the host is technically dead. I thought that might be suitably creepy, but again, not sure the rules support it.

I would personally go with the waiting until they try to loot bit. The body would be a bit too broken to be used by it to fight - remember, they're only controlling the body - it still has its regular hit points, I'm pretty sure.

Greymane
2010-03-16, 05:20 PM
Awhile back in a game I was playing, two characters that had been kidnapped were infested by those horrible little things. The Phrenic rogue nearly obliterated us when we were caught off guard by her energy current.

We managed to save the characters, but the characters that had been infested were... a little traumatized by the experience.

I think they're amazing, but need an easier way to leap around and infest people when their current host croaks.

Darrin
2010-03-16, 05:26 PM
What it says on the tin. Has anyone used the Tsochar, from Lords of Madness, and if so, how'd they play? Were they pretty good at being assassins and infiltrators?


I'm using them in my current campaign. They can be a... little frustrating for the players to deal with, particularly if they are inhabiting an important NPC or PC that the players don't want to kill, since being inside a host may make them immune to a lot of things (no LOS/LOE) or create rules headaches that require a DM to think quickly on his feet.

As far as being good assassins/infiltrators, it depends on whether they are using a living or not-so-living host. If the living host is a really good assassin/infiltrator, then yes, by extension the Tsochar is also really good. If the host dies or gets separated, then it does have some decent stealth-related skill bonuses (Hide +12, Move Silently +8), but beyond that isn't really uber-stealthy. However, a Tsochar that uses Take Spells (Su) to cherry-pick the right spells could a lot more dangerous/sneaky, but that's getting a little bit close to the DM "cheating", since he can make them much nastier without inflating their CR, and the Tsochar doesn't really pay anything to get those spells.

Inside a non-living host, it depends on how the DM interprets the polymorph effect, which may give it abilities from the host that make it a lot more powerful than the Tsochar itself.



Further, a Tsochar related query: what happens when they are inhabiting a host, and the host is killed? Let's assume the tsochar survives the damage that killed the host. Are they forced out of the host? It doesn't say anywhere I could find what happens.

Off the top of my head, I'd probably allow the Tsochar to take control of the dead body (assuming there's enough of it left), essentially replacing the Inhabit effect with the Replace effect. The Tsochar would still have its remaining HP left, and would be using the host's physical stats per the Replace text. Or I might allow the Tsochar to "play dead" and just hide inside the corpse as an object: no LOS/LOE, and assign the corpse some HP and hardness as an object. The PCs could then "dig it out" if they were so inclined. Or if I didn't want to bother calculating object HP/hardness, I might just call it "hide armor" and give the Tsochar a +4 armor bonus.

Kintar
2010-03-16, 05:31 PM
Does anyone know the size of these little baddies when not in a host, of course. I plan on pseudo introducing these to my group in the next adventure. My plan is that one is going to be in a box bound for the Library of Korranberg in Zilargo (Eberron) that the PC's are bringing there for the Silver Flame. I would like to know how big of a box and how much it would weigh...

arguskos
2010-03-16, 05:40 PM
Does anyone know the size of these little baddies when not in a host, of course. I plan on pseudo introducing these to my group in the next adventure. My plan is that one is going to be in a box bound for the Library of Korranberg in Zilargo (Eberron) that the PC's are bringing there for the Silver Flame. I would like to know how big of a box and how much it would weigh...
They're small-sized, as their entry says in Lords of Madness.

Darrin, that's what I was thinking about actually (the Infest becoming Replace thing). It seems reasonable to me that they could animate the body, depending on how it died (disintegration is obviously right out). Think I might start including these fellows in small numbers in my campaign as elite assassins for a group of evil casters who are already well-established in the setting, they'd fit the role well I think, since they can trade service for arcane secrets.

Darrin
2010-03-16, 05:42 PM
Does anyone know the size of these little baddies when not in a host, of course. I plan on pseudo introducing these to my group in the next adventure. My plan is that one is going to be in a box bound for the Library of Korranberg in Zilargo (Eberron) that the PC's are bringing there for the Silver Flame. I would like to know how big of a box and how much it would weigh...

Small size, and they could technically squeeze down into a tiny space, so I'd say a box 2.5' on a side, maybe as small as a 1' cube. Weight... just a guess, but maybe half the weight of a halfing or gnome?

Keld Denar
2010-03-16, 06:24 PM
Unless the PCs get cremate-happy (occures in undead heavy games), most of the times my PCs just leave corpses where they lie. No point in wasting valuable killing/looting/whoring time digging a hole and whatnot. Thus, the inhabiting Tsochar just lies in wait till nobody's looking, hops out, and finds a fresh host. Easy come, easy go, or so they say. Then it uses that host and any others it can infest to plot the discreditment and dismemberment of the PCs!

Nothing says lovin like vicariously tearing someone limb from limb!

arguskos
2010-03-16, 06:36 PM
Unless the PCs get cremate-happy (occures in undead heavy games), most of the times my PCs just leave corpses where they lie. No point in wasting valuable killing/looting/whoring time digging a hole and whatnot. Thus, the inhabiting Tsochar just lies in wait till nobody's looking, hops out, and finds a fresh host. Easy come, easy go, or so they say. Then it uses that host and any others it can infest to plot the discreditment and dismemberment of the PCs!

Nothing says lovin like vicariously tearing someone limb from limb!
That seemed like a good plan too.

I've been wondering: would it be unfair to permit a tsochar-only feat (with some prereqs, obviously) that lets an inhabiting tsochar attack with one claw while inhabiting? That awesome picture from LoM with the tsochar and the priest standing over Krusk made me think of a combat where a bunch of tsochar-inhabited barbarians attack with fierce claw-like weapons, while their tsochars whip at people with claws of their own.

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-16, 06:49 PM
I haven't used them yet, but I'm definitely planning on including them if I ever get around to running a Stargate-themed D&D campaign.

Darrin
2010-03-16, 06:50 PM
Unless the PCs get cremate-happy (occures in undead heavy games), most of the times my PCs just leave corpses where they lie. No point in wasting valuable killing/looting/whoring time digging a hole and whatnot. Thus, the inhabiting Tsochar just lies in wait till nobody's looking, hops out, and finds a fresh host.

A Tsochar using Wear Flesh (Su) under either the Inhabit or Replace option might still show up with Detect Magic... but I'm having trouble finding a ruling of how (Su) abilities show up as magical auras. (Su) has caster level = HD, but unless it's mimicking a specific spell, the school might be indeterminate. If the body is made of a dense enough material (metal or stone) the Detect Magic might not penetrate deep enough to detect the Tsochar.

If a living host was killed with the Tsochar still alive inside, I might give it the option to *not* switch to Replace, and instead just hide inside the corpse as an object. Without Wear Flesh active, and so long as it doesn't use Telepathy (Su), it would then be undetectable with Detect Magic. It could then sneak away. If it had any spells via Take Spells (Su), it might still show up under Detect Magic, though.