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Morquard
2010-03-16, 04:42 PM
Hi

I'm currently building a cleric (level 1, mostly core rules), and I'm stuck at if i should pick a deity and if yes, which one.

I want the clerics allignment to be good (or at least not evil), and mainly do healing and bashing stuff with my mace.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what advantage does it give to pick a deity? PHB states that you can be a cleric without one.

All I see is that it limits my selection of Domains to just a handful, while a deity-less cleric can pick whatever he wants (except allignment domains).
War domain seems to be the only one that profits from a god, by giving a weapon proficiency and weapon spec feat for the gods favorite weapon.

But the only non-evil god that gives War seems to be Heironeous, and then I'm limited to Law or Good for my second domain.

So... why pick a deity? Does it give any other cool advantages to do so?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-16, 04:43 PM
Many PrC's require them non-core...

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 04:44 PM
Possibly as part of building the character- backstory, an organization to get help from, and so on.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-16, 04:49 PM
So... why pick a deity? Does it give any other cool advantages to do so?
There's a couple of reasons.

1) Many DM's consider the cause-clerics to be abominations, and house-rule against them.
2) Deities come with plot-hooks (church organization issues, divine messages, and so on).
3) There's a fair number of non-core feats, PrC's, and such that require a particular deity.
4) Flavor.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-16, 04:50 PM
And if it's raw power you want, three words : Initiate of Mystra.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 04:51 PM
In Elder Evils, it was one of them that unleashed the secret of Cause-clerics on the world.

So maybe they would be regarded with some suspicion by more regular clerics.

Morquard
2010-03-16, 04:52 PM
But aside from RP reasons (and the PrC one), which of course is a good reason in a RP game :) there's no real reason to actually pick one?

Ah while i was typing that, a few more answered, thanks :)

Greenish
2010-03-16, 04:53 PM
But aside from RP reasons (and the PrC one), which of course is a good reason in a RP game :) there's no real reason to actually pick one?No, aside from mechanical and RP ones, there aren't any reasons to worship gods instead of ideals.

Quirp
2010-03-16, 04:54 PM
And you can use the war domain without a deity. There are favored weapons for alignments (the Spiritual Weapon spell PHB) I think.

And making up your own deity is funny.
But if you want to pray to a deity choose BOCCOB. I mean he is powerful and you are the follower of a guy that is called THE UNCARING. That is so stupid it´s good again.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 04:54 PM
Pretty much.

Faerun has a pretty hefty RP reason- because if you don't, you risk being judged as one of the Faithless and stuck in a wall for all eternity, where your soul-essence slowly breaks down.

At the other end of the scale- nobody knows for sure if there are really gods, in Eberron.

Last Laugh
2010-03-16, 04:55 PM
I always will vote for bahamut, become a dragonborn and get the party sorc to greater might wallop your mace. (dive attacks double damage, might wallop makes it big big big)

Morquard
2010-03-16, 05:03 PM
Ok, thanks everyone so far.

Another thing: War domain gives bonus according to the gods favorite weapon... but if the god doesn't offer the war domain, then the "favorite weapon" entry beside that god is pretty worthless?

Ok Spiritual Weapon spell makes a weapon like that, but it does a fixed amount of force damage, so again its just for looks?

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:04 PM
I think it's more of a character thing- the clergy will tend to use that weapon, especially at ceremonies, even if it is subpar.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 05:07 PM
What are the Favored Weapons of the various alignments?

Greenish
2010-03-16, 05:07 PM
Ok, thanks everyone so far.

Another thing: War domain gives bonus according to the gods favorite weapon... but if the god doesn't offer the war domain, then the "favorite weapon" entry beside that god is pretty worthless?

Ok Spiritual Weapon spell makes a weapon like that, but it does a fixed amount of force damage, so again its just for looks?Well, Favored Souls still get their WF to that, and off the top of my head, I'd claim there are some non-core spells that are affected by your deity's favoured weapon.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 05:10 PM
What are the Favored Weapons of the various alignments?
Chaos: Battleaxe
Evil: Flail
Good :Warhammer
Law: Longsword
According to the description on Spiritual Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) spell.

Caphi
2010-03-16, 05:13 PM
No, aside from mechanical and RP ones, there aren't any reasons to worship gods instead of ideals.

Aside from mechanical and RP reasons, there's no reason to do anything at all.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:14 PM
Spell Compendium sort of answers this, with the Weapon of the Deity spell (originally introduced in Faerun, Spell Compendium version provides weapons for the core deities, and the alignments.)

Good: +1 frost warhammer
Evil: +1 mighty cleaving light flail
Neutral: +1 defending heavy mace
Law: +1 flaming longsword
Chaos: +1 shock battleaxe

So, going by this, it would suggest that:

Good: Warhammer
Evil: Light flail
Neutral: Heavy mace
Law: Longsword
Chaos: Battleaxe

EDIT: Looks like Spiritual Weapon didn't mention Neutral's one.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:16 PM
Also some campaign settings REQUIRE you worship a deity to cast divine spells. The forgotten realms and dragonlance(except for mystics) come to mind.

But basically a faithless cleric has no support, no structure and no organization.
I would point out that the war domain grants

Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.

A very strict reading of the rules would say that a faithless cleric doesn't gain that benefit because no deity=no favored weapon. But I believe the FAQ suggests you pick the most closely associated weapon.

In my own setting divine power must be channeled through a divine source, so a faithless cleric is someone who doesn't want to admit or doesn't know where his power comes from. Which would lead others to believe you receive your power from an elder evil. So a faithless PC cleric would likely be burned the stake or go insane because his power REALLY is from an elder evil.

HOWEVER, I don't hold tight purse strings on the domains a god grants. If the domain would fit under the portfolio of the deity then you can pick it.

*also my healing domain grants the augmented healing feat for free instead of the silly +1CL.

boomwolf
2010-03-16, 05:20 PM
Chaos: Battleaxe
Evil: Flail
Good :Warhammer
Law: Longsword
According to the description on Spiritual Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) spell.

Who the hell made these decisions? I don't know anything particulary evil in flails, or very chaotic in battleaxes, or lawful in longswords. (warhammer can be argued good because it can serve as a tool of construction and peace.)


Anyways...
RP wise, not having any religion will make pretty much EVERY cleric, druid, paladin, and other divine casters (and very religious non-casters) look weird at you at best, and aim for your life at worst (with annoying recruitment attempts in the middle.).

Except the few other nonreligious ones anyway...

DnD is a world where gods are REAL. you are wise to befriend one of them (by worship) so that others (mostly the evil ones) won't devour you. you NEED that divine "touch me directly and a god war starts" protection.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:21 PM
Who the hell made these decisions? I don't know anything particulary evil in flails, or very chaotic in battleaxes, or lawful in longswords. (warhammer can be argued good because it can serve as a tool of construction and peace.)

Then maybe faithless clerics just shouldn't be allowed then, or they can't cast spells that depend on the weapon choices of a deity.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:23 PM
Flail resembles a scourge, which has evil associations.

Sword is symbolic of law in western society- with Justice depicted as a blindfolded lady with a sword.

Not so sure about battleaxe.

Lysander
2010-03-16, 05:25 PM
I guess the reason to choose a deity is that it means on some level there's an epic divine being rooting for your success. That may or may not make a difference in your game depending on level and scope. With plane shift you could actually visit their kingdom, talk to the solars working for them, etc.
The other reason is that if you follow an actual religion you have the followers of that religion as your allies, at least in a broad sense.

A better question is why not choose a deity? I suppose in order to get custom domains, but otherwise there's no advantage.

Thalnawr
2010-03-16, 05:25 PM
Battle axes were seen as iconic barbarian weapons, so inherently chaotic.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 05:26 PM
Who the hell made these decisions? I don't know anything particulary evil in flails, or very chaotic in battleaxes, or lawful in longswords. (warhammer can be argued good because it can serve as a tool of construction and peace.)I don't know what is lawful good about bears and chaotic evil in wolves, either. Sometimes in fantasy, people just invent stuff.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:26 PM
Flail resembles a scourge, which has evil associations.

Sword is symbolic of law in western society- with Justice depicted as a blindfolded lady with a sword.

Not so sure about battleaxe.

Battle Axe is associated with savage raiding barbarians.


I don't know what is lawful good about bears and chaotic evil in wolves, either. Sometimes in fantasy, people just invent stuff.

Your thinking of lycanthropes right?

Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes.
This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned

Its all about how historically the animals reputation has been seen.
Bears, eagles and Lions have been seen as good, while rats, snakes and wolves are the badguys?
Why? well that's probably a long history lesson.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 05:27 PM
Battleaxes are associated with barbarians and vikings which are associated with chaos.

Flails are associated with, as mentioned, scourges (an implement of torture), and also, Naz'ghul.

Swords are the heroic weapon, really, is why they're for Law. Because the Paladin is the Hero in D&D, or at least that seems to be what they're going for. There's lots of places that imply that Lawful Good is "more good" than Chaotic Good.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:28 PM
True- and the classic justification for being a ruler given by a chaotic barbarian type- King Kull-

"By this axe I rule!"

Though one could come up with an "axe as lawful" justification as well- the headsman's axe, the Roman use of the axe and rods as symbols of law, and so on.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 05:28 PM
Flails are associated with, as mentioned, scourges (an implement of torture), and also, Naz'ghul.Nazgűls had longswords. :smallamused:

boomwolf
2010-03-16, 05:29 PM
I don't know what is lawful good about bears and chaotic evil in wolves, either. Sometimes in fantasy, people just invent stuff.

Yet again it is proven that the alignments set by WotC is good in theory, but they apply it very very wrong and without any logic.


Nazgűls are LAWFUL evil, so it fits there.

Zeful
2010-03-16, 05:30 PM
Who the hell made these decisions? I don't know anything particulary evil in flails, or very chaotic in battleaxes, or lawful in longswords. (warhammer can be argued good because it can serve as a tool of construction and peace.)

The Axe is the tool of the frontiersman, one who goes out to settle the wild lands away from the heart of society. The Flail is the tool of the Torturer, it's only purpose is to cause pain and ragged wounds. The Hammer is the tool of the carpenter, one who gives of himself to make the lives of others better. The Sword it the tool of the guardsmen, one tasked to hold society on his back lest it fall to anarchy.

How's that for you? It took me about five minutes to rationalize it.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 05:31 PM
So... why pick a deity? Does it give any other cool advantages to do so?

Because Banjo deserves it.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:32 PM
Though the flail could also be described as a weaponization of the basic farmer's instrument.

The crook and flail were Egyptian ruler symbols.

It really depends what source you're drawing from.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 05:32 PM
Nazgűls had longswords. :smallamused:
Not the one at the end of the movie that the chick kills after saying she's not a man.

Though, yes, now that you mention it, I do remember something about swords, and a poison, and the like... :smalltongue:

Orzel
2010-03-16, 05:33 PM
You see, chaotic clerics are about freedom and axes "free" good arms from their evil masters. They "liberate" heads too.

You're free now, left arm! Go and embrace your liberty!

Kirgoth
2010-03-16, 05:34 PM
There are several issues here
Having a god gives roleplaying opportunities as does having a cause; make sure you define this cause well however. Up to you which way you wish to go.

Having played mostly clerics I would recommend a neutral cleric with the ability to rebuke undead & do spontaneous harms. Rebuke is much better than Turn and with a neutral cleric and no god you don't need to be evil.
Rebuke has the undead cower in front of you where you can hit them; turn makes them run away making you have to chase after them to kill them. This is especially important with incorp undead as they will come back after 10 turns after each turning after hiding in the walls, with rebuke you can kill them.

Healing after a few levels will be done with wands of healing anyway so spontaneous heal is of dubious use.

My 2c worth

boomwolf
2010-03-16, 05:37 PM
The Axe is the tool of the frontiersman, one who goes out to settle the wild lands away from the heart of society. The Flail is the tool of the Torturer, it's only purpose is to cause pain and ragged wounds. The Hammer is the tool of the carpenter, one who gives of himself to make the lives of others better. The Sword it the tool of the guardsmen, one tasked to hold society on his back lest it fall to anarchy.

How's that for you? It took me about five minutes to rationalize it.

Longswords are evil because they are the tools of war and war alone.
Warhammers are lawful because you use a hammer in court to call order.
Axe is good because it is used to cut wood to heat people and build houses.
Flail is chaotic because it is a chain weapon and moves unpredictably after impact.

Like my reasoning for alternate set of alignment weapons?

Greenish
2010-03-16, 05:39 PM
Not the one at the end of the movie that the chick kills after saying she's not a man.The Witch-king of Angmar was killed by Meriadoc Brandybuck. Emo-Eowyn just tagged along and stole the credits.

Also, Sauron's big daddy, whose name I forget, used a warhammer.

And obviously, all references to Lord of the Rings are references to the books, unless you specify otherwise. :smallwink:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:41 PM
Yet again it is proven that the alignments set by WotC is good in theory, but they apply it very very wrong and without any logic.

Name one animal that has an alignment other then neutral. You can't
because they only have the neutral alignment.

Lycanthropes have alignments, because of how historically the base animal has been perceived in the western world.

Historically wolves, snakes and rats have been seen as evil animals. You can argue they aren't all you want but that doesn't change the animals reputation.

Lion's eagles and bears have historically have good reputation in literature and fables, thus they are the good lycanthropes.

And they say this under lycanthropes, adding

This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

So if your world's common folk are plagued by prides of lions and are protected by packs of dogs you can freely reverse the alignments. They just give the standard perception.

Just because you don't understand the logic, (or never bothered to read it) doesn't mean its not there.

How about this because there is no possible way to agree on a alignments favored weapon.
Faithless clerics can't cast any of those kind of spells.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:44 PM
yes- Faerun applies the alignments a bit more liberally in the case of werewolves- with tribes of human werewolves who are of varied alignments (the Grey Wolf tribe in the Silver Marches),

and those elven werewolves (lythari) which are normally CG.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 05:44 PM
The Witch-king of Angmar was killed by Meriadoc Brandybuck. Emo-Eowyn just tagged along and stole the credits.

Also, Sauron's big daddy, whose name I forget, used a warhammer.

And obviously, all references to Lord of the Rings are references to the books, unless you specify otherwise. :smallwink:

Now I'm picturing Sauron dressed up like a Little Sister calling his dad: Mr. Bubbles. And those that Mr. Bubbles kills angels.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:47 PM
How about this because there is no possible way to agree on a alignments favored weapon.
Faithless clerics can't cast any of those kind of spells.

Or just pick the Neutral one given- the Heavy Mace, a very standard cleric weapon.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:49 PM
Or just pick the Neutral one given- the Heavy Mace, a very standard cleric weapon.

Sounds fair, throw that in for the war domain to. If you don't pick a deity but want the war domain. No martial weapon for you.

Thalnawr
2010-03-16, 05:50 PM
Or just pick the Neutral one given- the Heavy Mace, a very standard cleric weapon.
One thing all of the alignment weapons have in common, is that they're all martial weapons. Taking a simple weapon as your War domain weapon is a bit silly, as you only get 1 free feat, rather than 2.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:55 PM
One thing all of the alignment weapons have in common, is that they're all martial weapons. Taking a simple weapon as your War domain weapon is a bit silly, as you only get 1 free feat, rather than 2.

War domain only grants a martial weapon proficiency if necessary, not every deity's favored weapon is of the martial type. Technically as the domain is written you can't gain any benefit without a deity.

Thalnawr
2010-03-16, 05:59 PM
I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure every deity with the War domain available has a martial weapon as their favored.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 06:05 PM
Ares in Deities & Demigods has the War domain, and has the halfspear as a favoured weapon- which was a simple weapon in 3.0.

In 3.5, the halfspear is now the shortspear- same damage, still a one-handed weapon- still a simple weapon.

(In 3.0, shortspears were two-handed, in 3.5 they have the same stats as 3.0 halfspears had)

Curmudgeon
2010-03-16, 06:12 PM
War domain seems to be the only one that profits from a god, by giving a weapon proficiency and weapon spec feat for the gods favorite weapon.

But the only non-evil god that gives War seems to be Heironeous, and then I'm limited to Law or Good for my second domain.
There are lots of non-Evil deities with the War domain; here's just a partial list:
{table="head"]Deity | Alignment | Favored Weapon
Anhur | CG | falchion
Azor'alq | NG | scimitar
Clangeddin Silverbeard | LG | battleaxe
Corellon Larethian | CG | longsword
Dol Arrah | LG | halberd
Dol Dorn | CG | longsword
Gaerdal Ironhand | LG | warhammer
Garagos | CN | longsword
Gelf Darkhearth | CN | warhammer
Gorm Gulthyn | LG | battleaxe
Haela Brightaxe | CG | greatsword
Heironeous | LG | longsword
Joramy | N/NG | quarterstaff
Mayaheine | LG | bastard sword + shield/mace/longbow
Red Knight | LN | longsword
Shevarash | CN | longbow
Solonor Thelandira | CG | longbow
Stronmaus | CG | warhammer
Tempus | CN | battleaxe
Tyr | LG | longsword
Uthgar | CN* | battleaxe
Wastri | LN | glaive
Xan Yae | N | falchion
Zuoken | N | unarmed strike/monk weapons [/table]
I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure every deity with the War domain available has a martial weapon as their favored. Yep; you're wrong.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 06:15 PM
I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure every deity with the War domain available has a martial weapon as their favored.

Nope.
Look at a few War Gods:
Re-Harakhty has the Khoplesh (Exotic Longsword 1d8, 19-20. Can make trip attks. Can drop if tripped so not trippd).
Bast has Tiger Claws (Exotic: 1d4 dam, x2 Crit, monks can use them in a flurry, cannot be disarmed)
Faith of the Sun: Talia- has like 10 domains. Has 2 Favored weapons: Trident and Battleaxe.
Beltar: Spiked Guantlet
Zuoken: Nunchaku

Thalnawr
2010-03-16, 06:20 PM
Ok, perhaps I should have said that their favored weapons all required a cleric to spend a feat on them to do lethal damage with them, whether it's exotic weapon proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, or improved unarmed strike. Ares and Joramy seem to be the only acceptable exceptions to that.

Barlen
2010-03-16, 06:52 PM
FYI, Complete Divine adds the Glory domain (+2 to turning checks and 1d6 added turning damage) to Heironeous. Thats a pretty good choice for a cleric if your DM will allow it.

Depends on which deities your DM allows.

Zaq
2010-03-16, 07:23 PM
Another reason to choose a deity is to use specific Relics, which require worship of a specific deity. But that means that you need to know that your DM will put them in the game, so there's that.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 07:26 PM
Ok, perhaps I should have said that their favored weapons all required a cleric to spend a feat on them to do lethal damage with them, whether it's exotic weapon proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, or improved unarmed strike. Ares and Joramy seem to be the only acceptable exceptions to that.

Various magic gods have the quarterstaff as a favored weapon, Baccob for one and several in faerun.

Splendor
2010-03-16, 08:01 PM
Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance you have to pick a specific god to get spells.
Other then those and house rule you don't have to.

For RP worship the Pantheon. While your not a specialty priest of a specific god you show your respect to all of them. This gives you support and background for your character while not restricting it to one specific deity.

boomwolf
2010-03-16, 08:11 PM
Lycanthropes have alignments, because of how historically the base animal has been perceived in the western world.

Historically wolves, snakes and rats have been seen as evil animals. You can argue they aren't all you want but that doesn't change the animals reputation.

Lion's eagles and bears have historically have good reputation in literature and fables, thus they are the good lycanthropes.

I'll say only this, and will not further respond on this topic (because if this does not convince you then nothing can.)

Alignment in DnD (as written and intended) is some sort of a "behavioral code" of the character, dictated by her own actions, WITH CONSEQUENCES SET BY GODS. hells, magic can discern your alignment. that's more then "how the world view at you.", that's a defining aspect of what you are just like race and class.

They claim that the reasoning behind lycanthrope alignments is how to world views them, yet Lycanthropy in DnD can alter your alignment

Why on earth will the way the world views your animal form can permanently change your behavior, by a magical, FORCED way? its not even a gradual change that is made due to a "if that's what they think anyway, I might as well be like that", its an instant alteration that occurs as specific situations with an opposed WILL save to resist, comparable to compulsion spells. (I think there actually is a compulsion spell that does just that.)

This makes the lycanthrope alignment more then mere "how you are viewed", lycanthropy is literally capable of changing your behavior, turning you against your beliefs, and sentence you to eternal punishment at your death, even if you did nothing wrong other then get bitten and failing to get cured. (yes, even if you forever locked yourself before the change, and the only time you lost a save you died that very night before harming anyway by a hunter that though you are a deer somehow.)

The entire alignment clause in lycanthropy is wrong. and should not have been mentioned from the firstplace. lycans should have kept original alignment, or at most turning all into chaotic neutrals. (or true neutral if the forced animalisation is truly a mindless animal.)

Teron
2010-03-16, 08:28 PM
He didn't say that lycanthropes' alignments are determined by how they're viewed in the setting, but by how the animals on which they're based are seen in real life. Werewolves are evil because they're murderous monsters, but the designers made it so because medieval Europeans hated wolves.

Riffington
2010-03-16, 08:43 PM
The spirits who created lycanthropes chose those animals that best reflected their own selves (in the minds of the humans). So since the humans saw rat as crafty and treacherous, the crafty and treacherous spirit took the form of a rat.


In addition to other reasons to have a deity as a cleric: If you act against your cause or deity, you lose the power to cast spells. You will need the aid of another cleric who can cast Atonement, who either shares your deity or your cause. But a cause is a very specific thing. If your conception of Justice is at all different than his, the name Justice is not enough to make you the same cause. You will wander a long time until you find a cleric whose Justice is your Justice. In contrast, a deity is a concrete thing. If you understand Hextor differently than another priest does, it doesn't matter. Hextor is Hextor, and he can grant you Atonement. He might not, but then again that's what you get for worshipping Hextor.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 08:45 PM
I'll say only this, and will not further respond on this topic (because if this does not convince you then nothing can.)

Alignment in DnD (as written and intended) is some sort of a "behavioral code" of the character, dictated by her own actions, WITH CONSEQUENCES SET BY GODS. hells, magic can discern your alignment. that's more then "how the world view at you.", that's a defining aspect of what you are just like race and class.

They claim that the reasoning behind lycanthrope alignments is how to world views them, yet Lycanthropy in DnD can alter your alignment

Why on earth will the way the world views your animal form can permanently change your behavior, by a magical, FORCED way? its not even a gradual change that is made due to a "if that's what they think anyway, I might as well be like that", its an instant alteration that occurs as specific situations with an opposed WILL save to resist, comparable to compulsion spells. (I think there actually is a compulsion spell that does just that.)

This makes the lycanthrope alignment more then mere "how you are viewed", lycanthropy is literally capable of changing your behavior, turning you against your beliefs, and sentence you to eternal punishment at your death, even if you did nothing wrong other then get bitten and failing to get cured. (yes, even if you forever locked yourself before the change, and the only time you lost a save you died that very night before harming anyway by a hunter that though you are a deer somehow.)

The entire alignment clause in lycanthropy is wrong. and should not have been mentioned from the firstplace. lycans should have kept original alignment, or at most turning all into chaotic neutrals. (or true neutral if the forced animalisation is truly a mindless animal.)

You've never seen a werewolf film, tv show or book have you? Its a curse its suppose to be bad, in the classic tale of the werewolf if you don't get cured you become a monster end of story more then any animal.
I suppose you hate how the vampire and various other undead templates change your alignment to.

A lycanthrope also reverts to its natural form when killed, so if your human form alignment stayed intact your perfectly fine if someone kills the chaotic evil werewolf. The beast vanishes upon death and all that remains
If your alignment is changed in both forms

If your character was lawful good gets bitten by a werewolf and later becomes permanently chaotic evil in both forms by failing a will save. The curse already killed your spirit, what does it matter if the gods punish the thing that destroyed you. All that made you you was killed by the curse when your alignment was changed. Once again its a curse its suppose to be bad. And if they just all became simple animals it wouldn't be a dangerous curse either.

You also make the completely false assumption that having an evil alignment is enough to send you to eternal punishment. First off that vary from campaign setting to setting. If your in faerun you go to the realm of the god you worshiped unless your judged false or faithless. You only go to hell if you make a pact with a devil, or the abyss of a demon steals your soul. Most setting aren't going to answer that question. Maybe that same guy is freed from curse and rises into heaven because he fault the curse to his last breath.

No you have absolutely nothing to support your argument that if you become chaotic evil as the result of a supernatural force and die 10 seconds later you somehow go to hell.

Sorry but the established material works your actions not simply your alignment at the time of death.

LASTLY: alignments intended as guidelines.


He didn't say that lycanthropes' alignments are determined by how they're viewed in the setting, but by how the animals on which they're based are seen in real life]

That is basically what I said yes in real life, snakes, rats and wolves have the long history of being seen as the evil animals, so for D&D the lycanthropes reflect how the animals have traditionally been viewed.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 08:55 PM
You've never seen a werewolf film, tv show or book have you? Its a curse its suppose to be bad, in the classic tale of the werewolf if you don't get cured you become a monster end of story more then any animal.
I suppose you hate how the vampire and various other undead templates change your alignment to.

A lycanthrope also reverts to its natural form when killed, so if your human form alignment stayed intact your perfectly fine if someone kills the chaotic evil werewolf. The beast vanishes upon death and all that remains
If your alignment is changed in both forms


And the Werebear's curse makes you help old ladies cross the street?

Agrippa
2010-03-16, 08:59 PM
And the Werebear's curse makes you help old ladies cross the street?

That and occasionally steal picinc baskets.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 09:00 PM
And the Werebear's curse makes you help old ladies cross the street?
Why not, except the lady probably won't want to get that close to a bear.

Historically the bear has been seen as a noble animal, thus a werebear is a creature of good, recently they've had a much worse reputation. But the thing about a good creature. Its not going to go around infecting people with curses.
Or it may be because the only fantasy example of a werebear I can recall is that guy from "The Hobbit"

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 09:08 PM
Historically the bear has been seen as a noble animal
Where, by whom? Everything's Worse With Bears (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleeyyr8ln8spjv?from=Main.EverythingsWorseWithB ears). Most notably, "Beowulf's name (which translates to Bee-Wolf) is a name Old English folk used to avoid ever even saying the word for bear, because even that might make everything worse. The same goes for the word "bear" itself, which originally meant "brown one," and the Slavic word medved, which originally meant "one who knows honey." That makes this trope Older Than Dirt."

Bears were so scary that they were "those who must not be named"!

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 09:10 PM
Voldemort was a bear?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 09:18 PM
Where, by whom? Everything's Worse With Bears (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleeyyr8ln8spjv?from=Main.EverythingsWorseWithB ears). Most notably, "Beowulf's name (which translates to Bee-Wolf) is a name Old English folk used to avoid ever even saying the word for bear, because even that might make everything worse. The same goes for the word "bear" itself, which originally meant "brown one," and the Slavic word medved, which originally meant "one who knows honey." That makes this trope Older Than Dirt."

Bears were so scary that they were "those who must not be named"!

Plenty of those tv trope bears are actually good you know.

Mastikator
2010-03-17, 01:24 AM
I know a very good reason for anyone, not just a cleric (thought especially a cleric) should be devoted to a deity. But it depends on a few "if"s so it might not count all the time. IF your chosen deity is an interventionist deity and IF your deity is concerned with his followers and IF you have proven your worthiness THEN your deity might intervene on your behalf to create results otherwise impossible in a time of great need.

It might save your characters ass, I'd wager.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-17, 02:46 AM
As has been mentioned, while a patron deity restricts some build options, it opens up others. And apart from that, you gain your deity and the rest of his clergy (or the sect you belong to, at least) as allies at the cost of having to follow not grossly violate your god's code of conduct. (Not that the core books give codes of conduct for the deities they present, much less explain how being a Chaotic servant of a Chaotic god is supposed to work...)

Beyond that, though... You're considering whether to choose a deity, and if so which one, for a cleric character concept you already have in mind. And that's one approach. But it's also possible to choose a deity or cause that it seems like it would be fun to play a cleric of, and then create the character concept based on that. This approach lends itself more to selecting a deity, I think, as the gods are a list of options that cover a lot of ground, and a cause is an alternative that you have to come up with on your own. Basically, your question is a variation on "Why use official material when you can homebrew exactly what you want?" Well, because it's easier, usually.


War domain gives bonus according to the gods favorite weapon... but if the god doesn't offer the war domain, then the "favorite weapon" entry beside that god is pretty worthless?
Not "worthless" so much as "frequently dumb". A deity's favored weapon should be the default weapon of his or her clerics. At the very least, I'd expect that learning to use that weapon would be a standard part of their training. But if it's a martial or exotic weapon, then, by default, they're not proficient with it! Of course, the weapon proficiency rules are pretty wacky as a whole, but even the more sensible Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) variant rule doesn't require a Cleric to choose a weapon group that includes his deity's favored weapon. For some reason.


RP wise, not having any religion will make pretty much EVERY cleric, druid, paladin, and other divine casters (and very religious non-casters) look weird at you at best, and aim for your life at worst (with annoying recruitment attempts in the middle.).
But followers of St. Cuthbert and Olidammara will likewise be leery of each other at best, and followers of Pelor and Nerull mortal enemies, and so on. Godless clerics aren't special in generally having a hard time relating well to people with incompatible ideals; that's true of pretty much everyone.


Name one animal that has an alignment other then neutral.
Any horrid animal. (See the Eberron Campaign Setting.) OH SNAP!

(Note that not only does this type of monster ignore what the core books say about animals' alignments, but the template is stated to change the base creature's alignment to "Always Neutral Evil", while the example stat blocks both say "Usually Neutral Evil". So this brief section of the rules isn't even consistent with itself. Oh, WotC, you so crazy.)


Various magic gods have the quarterstaff as a favored weapon, Baccob for one and several in faerun.
But they don't have the War domain, because they're the gods of squishy wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquishyWizard).

Curmudgeon
2010-03-17, 02:56 AM
But they don't have the War domain, because they're the gods of squishy wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquishyWizard).
Joramy, at least, is an exception here: War domain + quarterstaff. See Complete Divine, page 121.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-17, 03:53 AM
But she's not a goddess of magic. :smalltongue:

My first thought was that it might be inconvenient for a cleric with the Fire domain to have one of the more flammable weapons, by on second thought maybe that's the point. Why pay for the flaming weapon property when you can just set your big wooden stick on fire? Sure, it'll wear out pretty fast that way, but it's not like quarterstaves even have a listed cost. And if you're going to buy a masterwork one, you can probably afford to have it fireproofed too.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-17, 06:48 AM
Just that. Flavour. In most scenarios, clerics need to be devoted to a deity, or DMs won't allow them. Deity-less clerics are a lot less common than school-less wizards.
If you want a divine-caster that doesn't have a deity, I'd suggest paladins, druids, or archivists, since their core fluffy doesn't require to follow a specific deity.
You could say that domain powers/spells should be deity granting-only abilities.

Nai_Calus
2010-03-17, 08:01 AM
Because Corellon Larethian is awesome and you should totally worship him, that's why you need to choose a deity. You also need to be an elf or half-elf because of the retarded 'race-associated deities can only have clerics of that race' rule, but elves are awesome anyway. :smallcool: :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-03-17, 08:06 AM
Because Corellon Larethian is awesome and you should totally worship him, that's why you need to choose a deity. You also need to be an elf or half-elf because of the retarded 'race-associated deities can only have clerics of that race' rule, but elves are awesome anyway. :smallcool: :smalltongue:

I bet my friend's black ethergaunt wizard is infinitely more awesome than all the elves in the omniverse put together.

Greenish
2010-03-17, 08:12 AM
Because Corellon Larethian is awesome and you should totally worship him, that's why you need to choose a deity. You also need to be an elf or half-elf because of the retarded 'race-associated deities can only have clerics of that race' rule, but elves are awesome anyway. :smallcool: :smalltongue:Excuse me while I try not to vomit.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-17, 08:22 AM
not being neer my books im speaking from memory but,
doesn't afflicted lycans change there alignment to chaotic something and natural born have there own alignments?

IC ould have sworn it was dependent on what type of lycan you are.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 08:52 AM
not being neer my books im speaking from memory but,
doesn't afflicted lycans change there alignment to chaotic something and natural born have there own alignments?

IC ould have sworn it was dependent on what type of lycan you are.

There are lycanthropes of seemingly every alignment; and yes, the affliction does change your alignment. Werebears are Always LG for instance.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-17, 09:05 AM
not being neer my books im speaking from memory but,
doesn't afflicted lycans change there alignment to chaotic something and natural born have there own alignments?

IC ould have sworn it was dependent on what type of lycan you are.

Only Natural born can inflict others. So that means most natural werewolves must be evil if they keep making them. Either that or bad children.

Greenish
2010-03-17, 09:09 AM
not being neer my books im speaking from memory but,
doesn't afflicted lycans change there alignment to chaotic something and natural born have there own alignments?

IC ould have sworn it was dependent on what type of lycan you are.Natural lycanthropes have in their monster entry "Alignment: Always X X", which is WotC speak for "usually X X". If an afflicted lycanthrope voluntarily changes shape, he/she will also revert to "appropriate" alignment, but I'm not sure if that's how the natural ones roll.

Ashiel
2010-03-17, 10:16 AM
To the OP:

There are lots of reasons for playing clerics who worship particular deities; both mechanically and for role-playing reasons. There are also lots of reasons to worship pantheons by choosing domains from multiple deities, or ideals or philosophies such.

This is for the best. It allows players to create the characters the imagine, and provides the most options. You don't have to feel forced into picking a particular deity. Arguably deities don't really mean much anyway. Powerful outsiders like fiends can "grant" clerical spells too; and little is actually explained about the process of dealing with divine spells. Many deities actually draw their power from their followers; so it's in fact their followers who are granting them power to grant their followers power. Confused yet? :smalltongue:

Some could say a cleric's magic is actually being drawn from the power of their own faith and meditations. Regardless of the power's source, from a game perspective it's better to allow players room to experiment and play around with. Banning clerics of an ideal doesn't do much since you can still worship a Pantheon and pick your domains from those anyway. Banning both limits choices but doesn't really curb cleric power at all (though banning certain domains might, I wouldn't bother with the core domains - even Magic).

I had a character that was built as an undead cloistered cleric of death and magic. Not really optimized for power, but she was part of a small cult of arcane spellcasters / philosophers that had developed their own religious way of life (later wiped out by clerics and paladins who thought them to be an evil cult of some sort). She wouldn't have really been interesting with a standard deity.