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Domigorgon
2010-03-16, 05:45 PM
I'm DM-ing a Planescape-based campaign, and the PCs are starting at level 8.

I think one of my players is calling my bluff, because I cornered them into making new characters - things have gotten a bit stale, as half the characters were pre-made by me when we started playing over a year ago (I tried to kill them off fairly, and failed, so I tried my diplomacy skills instead).

Thing is, he wants to play a Medusa, as described in the Savage Species.

Now, my problem is this: apart from the obvious (gaze attack), is there anything I should worry about? Given that Savage Species is 3.0, and I want us to play pure 3.5.

I'm reluctant to tell him 'no' unless I know why I say it.

If nobody can come up with a good reason why I shouldn't let him play it, I'll let him play it.

Sheesh.

hamishspence
2010-03-16, 05:49 PM
The mechanics Savage Species uses for monster classes, have been used in later books, like Planar Handbook, or Libris Mortis.

Plus, Savage Species is one of the first books to incorporate 3.5 type rules (I think it changes the names of some of the skills)

So it's more of a 3.25 book, so to speak.

So it shouldn't be problematic to allow monster advancement rules.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:52 PM
Remind him that he can't exclude people from his gaze attacks, wait I think there may be a feat that lets you reduce a gaze attack to effect only a single target a round.

I'd disallow the race simply because he'd be to great a danger to his own party.

Grumman
2010-03-16, 05:54 PM
By default you can turn off a gaze attack, and the Medusa doesn't say it's an exception.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-16, 05:55 PM
Remind him that he can't exclude people from his gaze attacks, wait I think there may be a feat that lets you reduce a gaze attack to effect only a single target a round.

I'd disallow the race simply because he'd be to great a danger to his own party.

not if the rest of the party are grimlocks :P

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 05:56 PM
Thing is, he wants to play a Medusa, as described in the Savage Species.

Now, my problem is this: apart from the obvious (gaze attack), is there anything I should worry about? Given that Savage Species is 3.0, and I want us to play pure 3.5.

I'm reluctant to tell him 'no' unless I know why I say it.

If nobody can come up with a good reason why I shouldn't let him play it, I'll let him play it.

Sheesh.

8th lv? it is only 3/day, not at will. It is a targeted attack (1 target only): it doesn't matter if they look at the medusa on their turns, she has to activate it (then it matters if looking at her).
DC is only 10 + 1/2 level + Cha. So you are looking at DC 14 + Cha for now.

At lv 10, then she has a actual Medua's gaze.
He only has 5HD at level 8, so he is already paying for this ability.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 05:56 PM
By default you can turn off a gaze attack, and the Medusa doesn't say it's an exception.

Then whats the point of playing a medusa?

Grumman
2010-03-16, 06:01 PM
Then whats the point of playing a medusa?
...because you can turn it back on again, too? I'm saying you're not as much of a danger to your allies, because you can start using it after you tell them not to look at you.

Starscream
2010-03-16, 06:03 PM
By default you can turn off a gaze attack, and the Medusa doesn't say it's an exception.

Yes, I believe this is the case. Or you could just make the character wear a veil or something.

Honestly, I'd let him do it. If he ends up accidentally petrifying another party member, I imagine they'll share their feelings on having such a teammate in short order.

Runestar
2010-03-16, 06:07 PM
You can voluntarily shut off your gaze attack, so that should be no chance of accidentally zapping your PCs outside of combat.

During combat might be trickier, since gaze attacks tend to be quite indiscriminate in who they target.

Plus, your DC won't scale, so it will become less effective as you level.

jiriku
2010-03-16, 06:08 PM
You should review the medusa class carefully, and you may wish to consider houseruling it some. I don't recall that class specifically, but most of the monster classes in Savage Species are really pathetic when compared to standard PCs with +0 LA races. Unless the rest of the party is fighters and monks and paladins, the medusa character may quickly begin regretting his choice.

Oslecamo
2010-03-16, 06:15 PM
In this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8059026) I homebrew several classes in order to allow you to play monsters keeping up with the rest of the party while keeping any potential cheese away.

The medusa has already been done, and I post it here for your convenience as a 7 level class:


HD:d8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+ 0|+ 2| +2 |Medusa Body
2|+2 |+ 0|+ 3| +3 |+1 Dex, +1 Cha
3|+ 3|+ 1|+3 | +3 |Stone glimpse, Poison dip
4|+ 4|+ 1|+ 4| + 4|+1 Dex, +1 Cha
5|+ 5|+ 1|+4 | +4 |Stone glare
6|+ 6|+ 2|+ 5| + 5|+1 Dex, +1 Cha
7|+ 7|+ 2|+5 | +5 |Stone gaze
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. The medusa’s class skills (and the key ability for each skills) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Proefeciencies:simple and martial weapons, and her own snakes

Features
Medusa body:At 1st level a medusa loses all racial bonus she had and gains monstruous humanoid traits (basically dark vision 60 feets). She's a medium monstruous humanoid with base speed 30.

A medusa's hair transforms into living snakes, wich may be used as a natural weapon dealing 1d4 +Str modifier damage. All the snakes count as a single natural weapon. The snake heads produce a poison dealing strenght damage. The Fort DC is 10+1/2 medusa's HD+medusa's con modifier.
At 1st level the strenght damage is 1d4, but for every 2 extra HD the strenght damage increases 1 size category(1d6 at 3HD, 1d8 at 5HD, 2d6 at 7 HD, and so on)

A medusa gains a bonus to Nat Armor equal to half her Con modifier.

Ability increase:At 2nd, 4th and 6th level the medusa gains a permanent +1 to Dex and Cha.

Stone glimpse:At 3rd level a medusa's stoning powers begin to awaken. She can't yet turn a creature into stone in one go, but can partialy petrify them.

As a standard action, a medusa can "stone glimpse" a creature whitin 10 feets(+5 feets for each HD beyond the first 3). The Fort DC is 10+Half the Medusa's HD+Medusa's Cha modifier. If the target fails the save, it takes 1d4 Dex damage as their bodies partialy petrify. The damage increases by an extra 1d4 for every 3 extra HD of the medusa. This attack even affects corporeal undeads, but it doesn't affect creatures immune to petrification.

The medusa may use stone glimpse a number of times per day equal to her HDxCha modifier.


Poison Dip:As a move action, a medusa may poison a weapon she's holding. The medusa doesn't risk poisoning herself, but such poison only remains "fresh" for 1 hour per HD, after wich it dries out and becomes useless. It has no commercial value.

Stone glare:At 5th level, the medusa can now instantly petrify a creature if their eyes directly meet, but it demands they both look at each other for some seconds.

Same range and DC as stone glimpse, but the target gets both a will save and fort save to resist this effect. If it fails both, then it's instantly turned to stone as a flesh to stone spell. A stone glare costs two uses of stone glimpse.

If the medusa has 8 or more HD, a fraction of second is enough for the petrifying to happen, and thus the target only gets a fortitude save to resist this effect.

Stone gaze:The medusa can now temporaly fill her eyes with stoning power, affecting all who look at her.

Activating the stone gaze is a standard action wich costs four uses of the medusa's stone glimpse ability, and then one extra use for each turn she sustains the effect. She may end the gaze at any moment as a free action.

Same range and effect as stone glare , but now all creatures whitin range are automaticaly affected.

A medusa of 10 HD or more may activate any of her eye attacks as a swift action. A medusa of 15 HD or more may activate her eye attacks as an immediate action. This bonus applies even if not all medusa levels were taken, but only for the obtained eye attacks.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 06:18 PM
I say just use the Savage Species, but not let him take anymore levels: It is only too strong when at will.

3/day, on 1 target is not too strong.

Have the rest of you posters read the Savage Species version? Because there is no party misfire.

Akal Saris
2010-03-17, 03:56 AM
Heh, my thinking's the opposite of the previous poster: he'll generally suck until 10, then be decent for a few levels while petrifying gaze still has a slightly relevant DC, then probably suck again after 14th or so.

I think it will be fine if the party finds a way to deal with petrifying gaze. He'll be taking a 4 LA penalty (6HD at 10th with the monstrous advancement), so the only thing he'll be remotely good at is his gaze attack, and the DC on that doesn't scale very well.

Savage Species is frustratingly unclear on whether a medusa PC at 10th has the normal medusa gaze attack or only the targeted version that it first got at 8th, by the way.

Runestar
2010-03-17, 04:55 AM
I say just use the Savage Species, but not let him take anymore levels: It is only too strong when at will.

How is that strong? That is really the only thing the medusa PC will be able to do to contribute meaningfully to the party. So he had better do that well.

Volthawk
2010-03-17, 03:48 PM
Just to clarify about gaze attacks:


Unless specified otherwise, a creature with a gaze attack can control its gaze attack and “turn it off ” when so desired. Allies of a creature with a gaze attack might be affected. All the creature’s allies are considered to be averting their eyes from the creature with the gaze attack, and have a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack each round.

jiriku
2010-03-17, 04:01 PM
How is that strong? That is really the only thing the medusa PC will be able to do to contribute meaningfully to the party. So he had better do that well.

I concur. The exotic powers gained from monster classes may seem strong, but only because you're forgetting the terrible opportunity costs paid to get those powers. Most monster classes have poor hit points, indifferent attack bonuses and terrible saves compared to typical PCs of equivalent level, and they lack the flexibility of PC classes with spells, powers, or maneuvers. Often, they can't even compete effectively on skill points.

The risk here is not that the player of the medusa will dominate the game, but that he'll be unhappy and regret his choice because his character is ineffective.

Oslecamo
2010-03-17, 04:28 PM
I concur. The exotic powers gained from monster classes may seem strong, but only because you're forgetting the terrible opportunity costs paid to get those powers. Most monster classes have poor hit points, indifferent attack bonuses and terrible saves compared to typical PCs of equivalent level, and they lack the flexibility of PC classes with spells, powers, or maneuvers. Often, they can't even compete effectively on skill points.

The risk here is not that the player of the medusa will dominate the game, but that he'll be unhappy and regret his choice because his character is ineffective.

That's precisely why I've been designing the improved monster classes on my sign, wich make sure you keep up with BAB, saves and HD with the rest of the party while throwing some extra tricks here and there. Check out the medusa I posted earlier in this thread.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-17, 07:19 PM
Just replace the LA levels with full monster levels and make the DC for the gaze attack scale with HD rather than racial HD.

Sure, that'll give her full BAB and 2 good saves, but all the special attack dc's are opposed by fortitude so you can always through undead at the party if it seems too overpowered, and the DC's for the petrifying gaze are based of charisma, which is going to be useless for anything else.



Also note that unless you throw feats at it, you don't get any armor proficiency or decent weapon proficiencies until you start getting real class levels.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-17, 07:36 PM
Check out the first PrC in my signiture if you wanna play a medusa/gargoyle.

Yorrin
2010-03-17, 08:14 PM
I've actually used the Savage Species Medusa as a DMPC before. There are feats that can deal with the whole "don't turn my party into statues" thing in Savage Species itself, so your player will want to take a look.

In terms of power- it's a build that's powerful but fragile. Something of an exaggerated glass cannon. Very little ability to take hits, but if built intelligently the gaze becomes very powerful. I'd toss in at least one or two foes each fight that are immune.

Ashiel
2010-03-17, 09:14 PM
I had a player who wanted to play a Medusa character in a game I was running at the time. I threw together a quick progression for him, so that his character could keep getting HD equal to his level (I'm not really a fan of the savage species progressions due to the mechanical problems of dealing with non-HD levels). Here's the progression. I wouldn't consider this my professional work; but it worked at our gaming table just fine.



HD: 1d8
BAB: Best
Fort: Poor
Ref: Best
Will: Best
Skill Points: 2+Int mod

Racial Features
- Medium Monstrous Humanoid
- 30ft Land Speed
- Dex +2, Cha +2, Str -2
- Darkvision 60ft
- +1 Natural Armor
- Natural Attack (Snakes) 1d4
- Poison (snakes): 1d4 str, 1d4 str. Save DC 10 + 1/2 HD + constitution modifier.
- Proficient with all simple weapons.
- Preferred Classes: Rogue or Sorcerer


Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +0 +2 +2 Petrifying Gaze
2 +2 +1 +3 +3 Improved Poison
3 +3 +1 +3 +3 Petrifying Gaze, Natural Armor
4 +4 +2 +4 +4 Ability Increase
5 +5 +2 +4 +4 Petrifying Gaze
6 +6 +3 +5 +5 Ability Increase, Natural Armor
7 +7 +3 +5 +5 Petrifying Gaze

Petrifying Gaze (Su)
A medusa's eyes can quickly develop the ability to reduce creatures to mere stone statues through a powerful gaze attack. At first the range of the gaze attack is almost non-existant (mechanically 0ft). Only creatures within the medusa's space (such as when grappling) are at risk of being affected by the medusa's gaze attack.

At 3rd level, the range of this ability extends to 10ft. At 5th level, it extends to 20ft. At 7th level, it extends to 30ft. The save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 HD + charisma modifier.

Improved Poison (Ex)
A medusa's venom becomes more potent as her power grows. From now on her snake venom inflicts 1d6 strength damage initially, and 2d6 secondary. The save DC for poison is 10 + 1/2 HD + constitution modifier.

Natural Armor (Ex)
A medusa's natural armor increases to +2 at 3rd level, and +3 at 6th level.

Ability Increase (Ex)
At 4th level, a Medusa increases her Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity by +2.
At 6th level, a Medusa increases her Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma by +2.


http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1112-Medusa.jpg

Early in the game he multi-classed with sorcerer for some ability synergy, and focused heavily on saving throw and protection spells (stuff that didn't require a lot of caster levels, and he could make up the save DCs with his charisma bonuses). He had a snake familiar (IIRC).

It's worth noting this progression is savagely powerful for most groups. Stuff that's considered fine in our games is often rather OP in other games. In either case, you may wish to try Christopher Perkins' (D&D design manager) house rule for gaze attacks on page 59 of the Rules Compendium. It's incredibly simple and works like this.

Creatures with gaze attacks may use the gaze attack against a single target as a swift action on their turn. No extra work is required, and no testing to see if someone got stoned randomly throughout the fight. It speeds up game-play and also has the side effect of making gaze attacks weaker.

Just some thoughts.

EDIT: Artwork courtesy of Paizo's Pathfinder RPG.