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Geiger Counter
2010-03-16, 07:18 PM
Why do they have different stats?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-16, 07:19 PM
Why do dogs and wolfs have different stats? Or Housecats and Tigers? They're different things.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-16, 07:19 PM
because they are diffrent monsters.

Innis Cabal
2010-03-16, 07:20 PM
Golem is constructed. Elemental is natural.

faceroll
2010-03-16, 07:20 PM
Because golems are animated materials created by wizards and elementals are sentient pieces of another plane of existence. Elementals are alive, golems are not.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 07:20 PM
Because Golems are an outer shell: the elemental is stuck inside them (and released when they are killed).

Emmerask
2010-03-16, 07:24 PM
because they are completely different things?

Golems are magically created automatons of great power.
Elementals are incarnations of the elements that compose existence.

If you go this route you could also ask why apes and humans have different stats (they are made out of roughly the same material as well)

/ninjaŽd about 4 times or so ^^

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 08:08 PM
because they are completely different things?

Golems are magically created automatons of great power.
Elementals are incarnations of the elements that compose existence.

If you go this route you could also ask why apes and humans have different stats (they are made out of roughly the same material as well)

/ninjaŽd about 4 times or so ^^

Genetically, we closer to a mouse than a Ape. Yes, we look closer to an Ape than a Mouse, but DNA says differently.

Beorn080
2010-03-16, 08:30 PM
Genetically, we closer to a mouse than a Ape. Yes, we look closer to an Ape than a Mouse, but DNA says differently.

And that is why the dead body friendly flesh golem makers use parts grown from mice. Much more of a renewable resource that way.

faceroll
2010-03-16, 08:33 PM
Genetically, we closer to a mouse than a Ape. Yes, we look closer to an Ape than a Mouse, but DNA says differently.

That's not true at all.

Emmerask
2010-03-16, 08:33 PM
Genetically, we closer to a mouse than a Ape. Yes, we look closer to an Ape than a Mouse, but DNA says differently.

Well, I was just going for the we are made out of
Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen etc part and then I chose a creature with roughly the same appearance to make the point clearer :smallwink:
I concentrated on the elemental makeup because as far as I know golems (except flash golems or other golems made out of living things) and elementals have no dna so comparing that does not really work well :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-03-16, 08:52 PM
That's not true at all.

We share 99%* of our genome as mice: we even have the genes that could make a tail. Chimps are but 95%**
In addition: http://www.evolutionpages.com/Mouse%20genome%20synteny.htm


* (80-99 since there is variation in the genes But I digress)
** (at most).

But back on topic:
I can't understand why Flesh Golems are neutral. They created with evil magic and all.

Hurlbut
2010-03-16, 08:59 PM
But back on topic:
I can't understand why Flesh Golems are neutral. They created with evil magic and all.You do know how Frankenstein's monster was reanimated?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 09:15 PM
I can't understand why Flesh Golems are neutral. They created with evil magic and all.

A zombie or skeleton is evil because they are a direct mockery of life animated by negative energy which though mindless has a natural tendency to kill, Their existence also prevents a character from being resurrected while the undead exists. If your PC is killed and animated by as a zombie. You can't be brought back until that zombie is destroyed.
And in the end the walking dead can be considered evil simply for being undead.

Zombies and skeletons

This thing... man... whatever it is... evil may have created it, left its mark on it... but evil does not rule it

Without instruction a mindless golem will simply stand inert, animate dead is but one of its components and its still powered by an elemental spirit.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-16, 09:23 PM
Genetically, we closer to a mouse than a Ape. Yes, we look closer to an Ape than a Mouse, but DNA says differently.

Humans are genetically identical to apes, what with being a species of ape and all.

The Shadowmind
2010-03-16, 10:01 PM
Humans are genetically identical to apes, what with being a species of ape and all.

I thought humans were hominid family which includes humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans, but humans are certainly not a species of ape.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-16, 10:05 PM
All of those species are members of Homonidae, the "great apes".

The superfamily Homonidae is a part of is Hominoidea.

All members of superfamily Hominoidea are apes.

Ergo, humans are apes.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-03-17, 06:14 AM
I thought humans were hominid family which includes humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans, but humans are certainly not a species of ape.

We are also a species of monkey. You see a variation of a another species never stops being the thing from which they were derived, thus because apes are a subset of monkeys and we are a supset of apes, we are monkeys.

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-dMqEbSk8)

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 07:04 AM
*sidesteps the "mouse/ape" debate*

Golems themselves are not evil, but strangely the half-golem template (MM2) has a chance of turning you irrevocably evil and homicidal if you fail a will save during the grafting process.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-17, 07:16 AM
*sidesteps the "mouse/ape" debate*

Golems themselves are not evil, but strangely the half-golem template (MM2) has a chance of turning you irrevocably evil and homicidal if you fail a will save during the grafting process.

I think that that's linked to the trope of "ZOMG I'm a machine I'm a mosnster now I hate you normal people".

Just a question: since has been stated that human genome is more similar to the one of mice, why we aren't more similar to mice? :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:02 AM
I think that that's linked to the trope of "ZOMG I'm a machine I'm a mosnster now I hate you normal people".

The fluff says that it is the elemental part of you, rather than the construct part, that hates the living.


As soon as the character fails one of these required saves, he or she becomes a half-golem of neutral evil alignment. The character then has no Constitution score and the character’s type changes to construct, granting him or her construct traits. A neutral evil half-golem retains the memories and knowledge of its former life, but its personality becomes murderous and cruel. It demonstrates the hatred of flesh creatures common to elementals, and it seeks methods appropriate to its class to slaughter as many flesh creatures as possible.

Which is also odd, because elementals are usually neutral.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-17, 09:20 AM
The fluff says that it is the elemental part of you, rather than the construct part, that hates the living.



Which is also odd, because elementals are usually neutral.

The monster is from MMII. I think we should call someone with a great AD&D-fu, and ask him/her if the thing is sort of a legacy fluff.

Eldariel
2010-03-17, 09:36 AM
The monster is from MMII. I think we should call someone with a great AD&D-fu, and ask him/her if the thing is sort of a legacy fluff.

Far as I know, it's linked to the berserker-chance in Flesh Golems.

Greenish
2010-03-17, 09:42 AM
We share 99%* of our genome as mice: we even have the genes that could make a tail. Chimps are but 95%**
In addition: http://www.evolutionpages.com/Mouse%20genome%20synteny.htmNot quite:
This is what was actually determined: 99% of mouse genes have homologues in man (the actual protein similarity is much less than 99%. See article on mouse proteins.) Of these, 96% are in the same syntenic location in man as in mouse. 80% of mouse genes that have a match on the same syntenic region in man are also the best match for that human gene. These are called 1:1 orthologues, ie not just similar genes but genes that have descended and diverged from a common ancestor.We "share 80% of our genome with mice" if you want to put it on such simplified terms. You didn't provide your source for the "95%" figure for humans and chimpanzees, but I assume that number is not the homologues, but rather the orthologues.


The difference between Earth Elemental and a golem is the same as the difference between a human and a flesh golem.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-17, 10:52 AM
Far as I know, it's linked to the berserker-chance in Flesh Golems.

Well, in this way it makes quite sense.. it happens to the changed creature to incurr in the same "crisis" of the Flesh Golem I guess...


You didn't provide your source for the "95%" figure for humans and chimpanzees, but I assume that number is not the homologues, but rather the orthologues.

I think that you are right. and this would explain how mice are a quite good model even if not completely genetically related to humans (barring the fact that they are not as expensive as other animals, their genome is well known, is easy obtain knock-out animals, and so on).

Greenish
2010-03-17, 10:58 AM
I think that you are right. and this would explain how mice are a quite good model even if not completely genetically related to humans (barring the fact that they are not as expensive as other animals, their genome is well known, is easy obtain knock-out animals, and so on).Mice are not particularly closely related to humans, as far as mammals go. They're closer than platypuses, farther than ring-tailed lemurs. :smallwink:

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-17, 11:17 AM
Mice are not particularly closely related to humans, as far as mammals go. They're closer than platypuses, farther than ring-tailed lemurs. :smallwink:

I guess I had troubles with my lab asking lemures for experiments. Mice are a good compromise. Said this, I see your point.

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-17, 01:04 PM
I guess I had troubles with my lab asking lemures for experiments. Mice are a good compromise. Said this, I see your point.Hate those things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#lemure). Mindless little Lawful Evil blobs (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG51.jpg)... :smallyuk:

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-17, 01:21 PM
Hate those things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#lemure). Mindless little Lawful Evil blobs (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG51.jpg)... :smallyuk:

Well, asking those lemures for experiments, would imply bargain with a pit fiend.

Thing that I obviously cannot do, because in the Blood War, my tutor sides clearly with tanar'ri.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-17, 02:30 PM
How does one ask a Mindless creature to do anything... (D&D Lemures are mindless)

Volkov
2010-03-17, 02:59 PM
Genetically, we closer to a mouse than a Ape. Yes, we look closer to an Ape than a Mouse, but DNA says differently.

B.S, where are the statistics? You must be mixing up the components of the genes.

Knaight
2010-03-17, 08:59 PM
I think that that's linked to the trope of "ZOMG I'm a machine I'm a mosnster now I hate you normal people".

Just a question: since has been stated that human genome is more similar to the one of mice, why we aren't more similar to mice? :smallamused:

You are aware that the vast majority of our genome is basically unused, and a few minor tweaks on a few individual genes are capable of huge changes? Basically genes that control when to start or stop producing a protein from a given DNA strand? I'm not saying that mice are more similar than apes, but huge differences can come from very, very few tweaks on DNA.

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-17, 09:49 PM
Also, genome isn't everything. There are also the effects of epigenome on phenotype.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-18, 02:58 AM
You are aware that the vast majority of our genome is basically unused, and a few minor tweaks on a few individual genes are capable of huge changes? Basically genes that control when to start or stop producing a protein from a given DNA strand? I'm not saying that mice are more similar than apes, but huge differences can come from very, very few tweaks on DNA.

This is true, but, in matter of confrontations, we can have two situation: apes are more similar to humans, or mice are. What do you think?

Mice are studied because are cheap specimen, are quite similar to humans, and are well characterized.


Also, genome isn't everything. There are also the effects of epigenome on phenotype.

Right, but those makes more sense in a confrontation between members of the same specie or even family group (say, explaining why two twins living distant each other are so different).

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-18, 06:04 AM
Right, but those makes more sense in a confrontation between members of the same specie or even family group (say, explaining why two twins living distant each other are so different).

Or in interspecies breeding.

But I get your point.

faceroll
2010-03-18, 08:04 PM
We share 99%* of our genome as mice: we even have the genes that could make a tail. Chimps are but 95%**
In addition: http://www.evolutionpages.com/Mouse%20genome%20synteny.htm


* (80-99 since there is variation in the genes But I digress)
** (at most).


99% of genes being homologous != 99% identity. Look, the article even points it out:


Now, having identified which sequences are pseudogenes and having removed them from the gene catalogue, it is possible to do a comparison of the mouse and human gene sets. At the time of publication of the draft mouse genome, the headline writers in popular publications came up with sensational and unjustified claims such as "Mouse 99% same as Human" and other misleading statements. This is what was actually determined: 99% of mouse genes have homologues in man (the actual protein similarity is much less than 99%. See article on mouse proteins.) Of these, 96% are in the same syntenic location in man as in mouse. 80% of mouse genes that have a match on the same syntenic region in man are also the best match for that human gene. These are called 1:1 orthologues, ie not just similar genes but genes that have descended and diverged from a common ancestor.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 08:12 PM
We share 99%* of our genome as mice: we even have the genes that could make a tail. Chimps are but 95%**




Groan. You are misunderstanding what these numbers mean. There are different ways of measuring how similar genomes are (such as measuring just coding DNA or measuring similarity in electropheresis bands etc.) The 99% number used above is for conserved syntenic blocks (basically looking at clusters of genes in the same physical locations). The 95% number looks solely at DNA that actually codes for proteins which is much more highly conserved. You need to be careful to measure the same quantities when making these sorts of comparisons.