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View Full Version : [3.5] A feat to use Str on rays?



Scorpions__
2010-03-16, 10:08 PM
Would it be unbalanced to allow a spellcaster to take a feat that allows them to use strength on their ray's touch attacks instead of dexterity?

Is there such a feat in existence?

The reason the player wants to be able to make this trade is because his bones thickened as a result of moderate taint, so he lost dexterity and gained strength.





DM[F]R

Temotei
2010-03-16, 10:22 PM
I don't think it exists, but the feat would essentially be Weapon Finesse in reverse, only working on rays.

I'd say make the feat affect (melee) touch attacks as well, and maybe other attack rolls.

It would most likely be balanced. It is a feat, after all, and Dexterity is generally more useful to casters than Strength.

Scorpions__
2010-03-16, 10:36 PM
Really, all those benefits from one feat? What should the prerequisite be?

Something like...

RAY SLINGER

You hurtle your spells at your opponent, using sheer strength to guide your spells, in place of the nimble fingers of your colleagues.
Prerequisite: Str 13
Benefit: You substitute your strength modifier in place of dexterity for ranged touch attacks you make with spells that produce rays.
In addition, you may add your strength bonus to the damage dealt by these rays. This extra damage only applies to hit point damage.
Normal: You use your dexterity modifier on ranged touch attacks made with rays, and do not deal additional damage from your dexterity bonus.

That...





DM[F]R

The Mentalist
2010-03-16, 10:45 PM
I would say balance-wise it's fine but I don't like it only for it not making sense. If a player of mine wanted to use it I'd be all for it but throwing around magic extra hard makes little sense to me (yes I can accept this in a world with fireballs and dragons) It's like pulling the trigger extra hard on a gun.

For pre-reqs I'd say it's fine. Maybe Str 13.

Temotei
2010-03-16, 10:49 PM
I would say balance-wise it's fine but I don't like it only for it not making sense. If a player of mine wanted to use it I'd be all for it but throwing around magic extra hard makes little sense to me (yes I can accept this in a world with fireballs and dragons) It's like pulling the trigger extra hard on a gun.

For pre-reqs I'd say it's fine. Maybe Str 13.

Except with pulling the trigger on a gun, you just move a finger. With a spell, you could force your arms forward, causing that ray of whatever to fly that much faster. Or something. :smallamused:

That feat is underpowered right now. It's a feat slot the wizard does not qualify for with their bonus feat. Feats are very precious.

Anyway, I'd improve it to add the bonus to other things, but it's your call.

It's really underpowered though. :smalltongue:

Cue Milskidasith entrance.

Zexion
2010-03-16, 10:50 PM
Except with pulling the trigger on a gun, you just move a finger. With a spell, you could force your arms forward, causing that ray of whatever to fly that much faster. Or something.
I suppose that makes a bit more sense. Not that much, though. Magic is all arcane spells, moving your arms faster is more likely to screw up the spell than it is to make it more powerful.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 10:51 PM
I suppose it be similar to the feat Brutal Throw which lets you use your strength modifier for attack rolls with thrown weapons.

Zexion
2010-03-16, 10:52 PM
I suppose. The difference is that this is not a specialized thing for a build, more of a general not-so-useful feat. And feat slots are precious... you might want to add another benefit to the feat.

The Mentalist
2010-03-16, 10:57 PM
Str mod to damage too? (Exclude ability damage naturally)

Temotei
2010-03-16, 11:02 PM
Str mod to damage too? (Exclude ability damage naturally)

That wouldn't be bad. It wouldn't be a great feat, but I suppose it would make it better. Make sure negative levels are excluded too.

The Mentalist
2010-03-16, 11:10 PM
Of course.

Scorpions__
2010-03-16, 11:11 PM
Edited, is it better now?





DM[F]R

Temotei
2010-03-16, 11:12 PM
Edited, is it better now?





DM[F]R


This extra damage applies only to rays that already deal hitpoint damage, and do not cause additional ability damage, or negative levels.

Say "This extra damage only applies to hit point damage."

It's more concise that way.

Innis Cabal
2010-03-16, 11:12 PM
I suppose it be similar to the feat Brutal Throw which lets you use your strength modifier for attack rolls with thrown weapons.

But that makes sense. The harder you throw something, the more damage it does.

Temotei
2010-03-16, 11:14 PM
But that makes sense. The harder you throw something, the more damage it does.

Indeed. Throwing a snowball lightly into someone's face will get them wet, but throwing it really fast might make them bleed.

For those not in snowy regions, imagine rocks instead.

Zexion
2010-03-16, 11:16 PM
I thought that you used your Strength modifier on damage rolls for all weapons. Right?

Scorpions__
2010-03-16, 11:17 PM
Not for weapons such as crossbows, and if it's a longbow it has to be composite, with a strength bonus allowance.





DM[F]R

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-16, 11:20 PM
But that makes sense. The harder you throw something, the more damage it does.

Did I say damage NO! I said to attack rolls,
normally with a thrown weapon its dex on attack and strength on damage.
With brutal throw its strength for both.

Zexion
2010-03-16, 11:49 PM
Not for weapons such as crossbows, and if it's a longbow it has to be composite, with a strength bonus allowance.





DM[F]R

Well yes, other than that. I knew THAT much.

Temotei
2010-03-17, 12:04 AM
Did I say damage NO! I said to attack rolls,
normally with a thrown weapon its dex on attack and strength on damage.
With brutal throw its strength for both.

With Dexterity, you aim better. With Strength, you make it harder for them to dodge. Same effect, but different causes.

The Mentalist
2010-03-17, 12:11 AM
I personally get that but I never saw rays as something you were actually throwing. I like the image though.

Temotei
2010-03-17, 12:14 AM
I personally get that but I never saw rays as something you were actually throwing. I like the image though.

True dat. It's hard to wrap your mind around, but since this is fantasy, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it's not too far-fetched.

The Mentalist
2010-03-17, 12:20 AM
And now I can't wait to see the buffed out wizard builds that fire off their rays and punch people out in bars.

Scorpions__
2010-03-17, 11:02 AM
And now I can't wait to see the buffed out wizard builds that fire off their rays and punch people out in bars.

That's what Bigby's Drunken Hand is for!






DM[F]R

Kiren
2010-03-17, 01:04 PM
Justification.

Rays with dexterity: Hand movements done perfect, ray is maintained with little extra effort.

Rays with strength: More crudely conjured ray that pushes casters fingers back and threatens to off balance the caster (Think iron man jets), with the feat you can handle the backfire and keep your fingers correctly aligned (Alignment is kinda like when you fire an electro bolt in Bioshock)

finalepic
2010-03-17, 03:28 PM
I was thinking something more along the lines of the feat allowing you to conjure the ray as something you hold, and then throw. Along the lines of Zeus throwing lightning bolts.

Temotei
2010-03-17, 04:41 PM
I was thinking something more along the lines of the feat allowing you to conjure the ray as something you hold, and then throw. Along the lines of Zeus throwing lightning bolts.

The feat does that when you use it. :smalltongue:

Seriously, if a player can picture it in a certain way, it'll be that way.

Scorpions__
2010-03-17, 07:06 PM
I was thinking something more along the lines of the feat allowing you to conjure the ray as something you hold, and then throw. Along the lines of Zeus throwing lightning bolts.

I like this, theft in progress.






DM[F]R

waterpenguin43
2010-03-17, 10:27 PM
I would say balance-wise it's fine but I don't like it only for it not making sense. If a player of mine wanted to use it I'd be all for it but throwing around magic extra hard makes little sense to me (yes I can accept this in a world with fireballs and dragons) It's like pulling the trigger extra hard on a gun.

For pre-reqs I'd say it's fine. Maybe Str 13.

I agree, but there is ONE justification I can think of: These spellcasters use their spells more like javelins, hurling them at their targets. You could work off that.

Lysander
2010-03-17, 11:07 PM
As a secondary benefit, what if these high powered rays could knock people back a few feet if they fail a fortitude save?

Zexion
2010-03-17, 11:31 PM
That might be a little much for one feat. As a separate feat, that required this feat, that would be really cool.

Temotei
2010-03-17, 11:35 PM
Adding that would be like Ranged Bull Rush. I think that's a feat somewhere (Complete Warrior? Player's Handbook II?).

Anyways, it would be cool to have for a second feat. That feat should have a requirement of 13 Strength. This feat shouldn't have a requirement in terms of ability scores, looking at Weapon Finesse for inspiration.

Scorpions__
2010-03-18, 12:00 AM
A feat that forces a fortitude save from ray spells? That sounds like metamagic too me.





DM[F]R

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-18, 12:04 AM
With Dexterity, you aim better. With Strength, you make it harder for them to dodge. Same effect, but different causes.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I was responding to someone who misread my post and mistook attack roll for damage.

Zexion
2010-03-18, 12:05 AM
Yup. That was me.
So, back to the original feat idea: it won't be balanced, because it adds yet another important stat for casters.

Scorpions__
2010-03-18, 12:26 AM
Yup. That was me.
So, back to the original feat idea: it won't be balanced, because it adds yet another important stat for casters.

Yes, but it allows for more damage depending on how strong you are, so for bug spellcasters, it's a valid choice.





DM[F]R