Xenomorphs and Lightsabers.

[IncarnumJunkie]

From what I can understand, the Xenomorphs spray their acid blood everywhere when they are either stabbed, slashed, or shot with a normal weapon.

Understanding the properties of a lightsaber, it cauterizes any wound it makes, therefore causing wounds from lightsabers to not bleed.

Therefore, would a lightsaber be useable against a Xenomorph without the risk of acid spray onto the wielder?

[Starscream]

Yes, the but sheer level of awesome concentrated in one place might cause the universe to implode.

[Lycan 01]

If it didn't cauterize the wounds, it would at least vaporize whatever acid flowed/splashed from the wound at it was made, shielding the attack from most of the impact spray.

So yeah, I think lightsabers might actually be effective anti-Alien weapons. :smallconfused:

[golentan]

That depends entirely on the nature of Xenomorph Biology. Given the acidic nature of the creatures, and their demonstrated ability to exude chitinous material rapidly, I wouldn't be surprised if their blood didn't have coagulants (relying on other methods to seal nonlethal wounds, or even didn't seal given the apparent hive structure of the xenomorphs and their perceivable willingness to sacrifice large numbers of individuals to kill an enemy), or if the coagulants would be triggered by the *lack* of conditions that would denature a protein. This makes sense given that Acid tends to have a Denaturing effect on proteins in the same manner as heat, so I would expect a lightsaber to fail to cauterize in the initial pass through the creature's system in the absence of further information on the biology involved. The trouble is it's rare to see an alien injured to the point it loses structural integrity but hasn't been mortally wounded in the films, so we can't guess at their ability to recover from such injuries.

Yeah. I seriously thought that through. I am pathetic.

[Thrawn183]

Hey, what if it vaporizes the acid into a gas. That would be like chlorine gassing yourself. Hopefully I need not tell anyone how unpleasant that would be.

[Tavar]

Hey, what if it vaporizes the acid into a gas. That would be like chlorine gassing yourself. Hopefully I need not tell anyone how unpleasant that would be.

Unlikely. Oh, I don't doubt that it would evaporate the water that the acid is dissolved in, but that just makes the acid solid, therefore making it relatively harmless.

[Geiger Counter]

While we're on the topic of xenomorphs there is the whole thing about the actual xenomorph that came out of the "jockey" and laid all those eggs. The jockey was able to synthesize a ship out of it's back so that xenomorph probably could too. Both me and hr giger agree that aliens did a horrible treatment to the xenomorphs, or should I say moon beast. They were elegant biomechanoids and they made them into big ants with blindsight.

[Texas_Ben]

Unlikely. Oh, I don't doubt that it would evaporate the water that the acid is dissolved in, but that just makes the acid solid, therefore making it relatively harmless.

Actually it would probably melt the acid, giving you an acid-coated lightsaber.

[Thrawn183]

What if a facehugger implanted a Jedi? Can you say force sensitive xenomorphs?

[Tavar]

Actually it would probably melt the acid, giving you an acid-coated lightsaber.

It doesn't do that with metal. Why would it treat acids differently?

[Inhuman Bot]

It doesn't do that with metal. Why would it treat acids differently?

Because it would be awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

[golentan]

Unlikely. Oh, I don't doubt that it would evaporate the water that the acid is dissolved in, but that just makes the acid solid, therefore making it relatively harmless.

But the solidified material retains (or perhaps more accurately regains) much potency on contact with water. Like the water intrinsic to the human body. So if the solidified material hit you, you wouldn't be much better off than if it was acidic at the time, no? That's why Lye can burn you even stored solid state (okay, opposite end of the Ph scale, but still).

[Dispozition]

May I just say, lightsabers don't actually emit heat...or at least, good ones don't. So the whole evaporating acid is false, lighsabers do not evaporate stuff. Episode 1 with the door, wouldn't happen by canon. Either that or Qui-Gon's lightsaber is badly made.

I do, however, think that Xenomorphs vs. Lightsabers would rock hard.

[golentan]

May I just say, lightsabers don't actually emit heat...or at least, good ones don't. So the whole evaporating acid is false, lighsabers do not evaporate stuff. Episode 1 with the door, wouldn't happen by canon. Either that or Qui-Gon's lightsaber is badly made.

I do, however, think that Xenomorphs vs. Lightsabers would rock hard.

That's ridiculous. It might not emit radiant heat, but it can't cauterize unless heating exists, at least within the containment field of the blade.

[Klose_the_Sith]

May I just say, lightsabers don't actually emit heat...or at least, good ones don't. So the whole evaporating acid is false, lighsabers do not evaporate stuff. Episode 1 with the door, wouldn't happen by canon. Either that or Qui-Gon's lightsaber is badly made.

I do, however, think that Xenomorphs vs. Lightsabers would rock hard.

Qui-Gon had some turbo switch on his saber or something, I think >.>

[Dispozition]

That's ridiculous. It might not emit radiant heat, but it can't cauterize unless heating exists, at least within the containment field of the blade.

Eh, probably right there. But I imagine that without the radiant heat it wouldn't evaporate all the acid.

I was just going on memory from the Fact Files from around 7 years ago. I haven't read the tech section in that for ages...

[Coidzor]

May I just say, lightsabers don't actually emit heat...or at least, good ones don't. So the whole evaporating acid is false, lighsabers do not evaporate stuff. Episode 1 with the door, wouldn't happen by canon.

So, the canon wouldn't happen by canon. Ayep, I think you've just highlighted one of the other problems with lightsabers.

[golentan]

Eh, probably right there. But I imagine that without the radiant heat it wouldn't evaporate all the acid.

I was just going on memory from the Fact Files from around 7 years ago. I haven't read the tech section in that for ages...

It has to pass through the flesh to cut.

The flesh contains blood.

The blood is acid.

If it is hot enough to cut flesh cleanly, it is hot enough to vaporize water.

It will evaporate a significant portion of acid on it's course through the alien's body (varying based on the nature and depth of the cut, and the width of the beam).

[Dispozition]

It has to pass through the flesh to cut.

The flesh contains blood.

The blood is acid.

If it is hot enough to cut flesh cleanly, it is hot enough to vaporize water.

It will evaporate a significant portion of acid on it's course through the alien's body (varying based on the nature and depth of the cut, and the width of the beam).

If we take cues from the most recent AvP game though, they can also spit it and when they die, their body excretes it. Lightsabers aren't much good against that.

I will admit my initial argument was flawed though. I was bored at uni and needed something to do >:

[FoE]

Why do we need lightsabers when we have blasters and Force powers?

[Magnor Criol]

So, the canon wouldn't happen by canon. Ayep, I think you've just highlighted one of the other problems with lightsabers.

Those first three movies weren't actually canon. They're falsehoods and lies, pretenders to the name of Star Wars, but don't worry, they aren't actually real Star Wars movies- no real Star Wars trilogy would be as awful as that trio.

So, it's only non-canon that tried to fake its way as canon that's being invalidated. Problem solved!

(:smalltongue:)

[chiasaur11]

Why do we need lightsabers when we have blasters and Force powers?

"An elegant weapon for a more civilized time, huh? Well, guess what? Times have changed."

[golentan]

"An elegant weapon for a more civilized time, huh? Well, guess what? Times have changed."

http://www.sluggy.com/images/comics/020702a.gif

Yeah. Elegant loses to practical every time.

[Mando Knight]

May I just say, lightsabers don't actually emit heat...or at least, good ones don't. So the whole evaporating acid is false, lighsabers do not evaporate stuff. Episode 1 with the door, wouldn't happen by canon. Either that or Qui-Gon's lightsaber is badly made.

The lightsaber contains the heat within the plasma-conduit-thing that is the blade. The blade itself is ridiculously hot. Therefore, when Qui-Gon stabbed the door, it super-heated the metal he stabbed. The super-heated metal then melted the rest of the door. Air will transmit the heat back into the conduit boundary more quickly than other materials.

Yes, I just BSed that off the top of my head.

[leafman]

Even in Empire Strikes Back lightsabers emit plenty of heat. When Vader is swinging at Luke one of his swings misses and cuts straight through some random pipes and leaves singes and soot on the metal indicating that burning occured (visible when Vader reveals the horrible truth and invites Luke to join him).

[Optimystik]

What if a facehugger implanted a Hutt?

[warty goblin]

The lightsaber contains the heat within the plasma-conduit-thing that is the blade. The blade itself is ridiculously hot. Therefore, when Qui-Gon stabbed the door, it super-heated the metal he stabbed. The super-heated metal then melted the rest of the door. Air will transmit the heat back into the conduit boundary more quickly than other materials.

Yes, I just BSed that off the top of my head.

Lightsabers really can't be that hot though, because people can hold them without burning their hands, or even apparent discomfort. It takes a damn hot flame to melt even steel, and I'd bet that blast doors are considerably more heat resistant. I'd certainly not want to have my bare hands an inch and a half from that sort of heat source if I could avoid it.

For another, if they were radiating that sort of heat, they'd all glow blue and be too bright to look at regardless of the color of the blade due to heating of the air.

Finally, I recall there being a reasonable amount of blood when Obi-Wan takes the arm off of the bounty hunter in the bar, so even if there is cauterizing, it's not complete.

A better hypothesis is that something in the action of the lightsaber's blade on metallic substances causes massive heating of that material, but the blade itself is not actually hot. Something similar to induction perhaps.

[chiasaur11]

http://www.sluggy.com/images/comics/020702a.gif

Yeah. Elegant loses to practical every time.

So, you know where the quote comes from?

Just wondering how many people around here have played through Republic Commando.

[Oslecamo]

Just to point out that it's great for the jedi that every combat droid out there is built with powerfull safety mechanisms to prevent it from exploding in deadly burning shrnappel when hit by lightsabers.:smalltongue:

Aliens on the other hand have been known to cut their own in order to use their acidic blood, so even if lightsavers cauterize, the aliens will tear apart one of their own and shower the jedis with burning acid.

[warty goblin]

So, you know where the quote comes from?

Just wondering how many people around here have played through Republic Commando.

Ya'know, I've played the entire game at least twice, perhaps three times, and I'm fairly sure I've never heard that particular line. Although I agree with the sentiment, I found my blaster to be the height of practicality.

[Frozen_Feet]

Lightsabers really can't be that hot though, because people can hold them without burning their hands, or even apparent discomfort. It takes a damn hot flame to melt even steel, and I'd bet that blast doors are considerably more heat resistant. I'd certainly not want to have my bare hands an inch and a half from that sort of heat source if I could avoid it.


Considering I can hold a welding / cutting torch in my bare hands, and have kept them within inch or two of heated metal, I can say it isn't that far fetched. Air is a good insulator, and the handle surely is cool enough to hold.

[Mando Knight]

Lightsabers really can't be that hot though, because people can hold them without burning their hands, or even apparent discomfort. It takes a damn hot flame to melt even steel, and I'd bet that blast doors are considerably more heat resistant. I'd certainly not want to have my bare hands an inch and a half from that sort of heat source if I could avoid it.

Like I said. The heat is contained within the plasma conduit that is the actual blade. If you cross the conduit, you get hit with enough electromagnetic and thermal energy to melt durasteel, but so long as you don't, you're fine.

[FoE]

And for that matter, we have battle droids. BATTLE DROIDS. As in "disposable mooks who can't be implanted with an Alien."

[golentan]

And for that matter, we have battle droids. BATTLE DROIDS. As in, disposable mooks who can't be implanted with an Alien.

The droid warfare always bothered me. Okay, let's take it as read that a clone is twice as good as a battle droid. Well, a droid takes a few hours to make, and the clones (even with growth acceleration) take years. The droids appear to be modular to the point where you can swap out damaged ones parts on the field with a repair kit. Metal is consistently cheap in the star wars universe. You can only pack a few dozen clones into the transport space that you can pack with hundreds of folded droids, and don't need to worry about their feeding, oxygen, or movement. With a droid piloted starship, you don't really need to worry about life support. You should be able to automate and coordinate all starship weapons accurately and easily, allowing more effective volleys even if you lose some innovation.

How the heck did the CIS manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in that situation. The jedi are a powerful advantage, but they can be swarmed, or ambushed, as evidenced by order 66. And the CIS has folks with a good track record for jedi killing. Even basic droidekas gave Ben and Jin trouble.

Sorry, just ranting to myself. Feel free to ignore me.

[Tavar]

Clone troopers are generally shown to be much better than simply twice as good. Plus, Droids need special facilities to create them, and there don't seem to be that many such areas, plus the fact that such areas would naturally be targeted for attack. Also, from the EU, the clones were simply a strike force. Planetary Militias were also involved, so the number situation wasn't quite as bad. Finally, unlike the CIS, the Republics ships were designed for war, giving them a massive edge in space battles.

Also, those weren't "basic droidekas". First off, normal droidekas aren't shielded. Secondly, even unshielded droidekas are very expensive, and thus relatively uncommon.

[Oslecamo]

How the heck did the CIS manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in that situation. The jedi are a powerful advantage, but they can be swarmed, or ambushed, as evidenced by order 66. And the CIS has folks with a good track record for jedi killing. Even basic droidekas gave Ben and Jin trouble.

Sorry, just ranting to myself. Feel free to ignore me.

Because a clone is actualy worth around 100 droids.

See Clone Wars. There the clones pull out all kind of crazy stunts despite being normaly horribly outnumbered. The droids are cut down like flies, and the only times they do something well is when they have a flesh being leading them.

It has something to do with hotbloodness and fighting spirit, that unmanned droids cannot replicate. The same reason why they use fighters with pilots when they should be able to make remote-controled fighters that don't need to worry about cockpits.

[chiasaur11]

The droid warfare always bothered me. Okay, let's take it as read that a clone is twice as good as a battle droid. Well, a droid takes a few hours to make, and the clones (even with growth acceleration) take years. The droids appear to be modular to the point where you can swap out damaged ones parts on the field with a repair kit. Metal is consistently cheap in the star wars universe. You can only pack a few dozen clones into the transport space that you can pack with hundreds of folded droids, and don't need to worry about their feeding, oxygen, or movement. With a droid piloted starship, you don't really need to worry about life support. You should be able to automate and coordinate all starship weapons accurately and easily, allowing more effective volleys even if you lose some innovation.

How the heck did the CIS manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in that situation. The jedi are a powerful advantage, but they can be swarmed, or ambushed, as evidenced by order 66. And the CIS has folks with a good track record for jedi killing. Even basic droidekas gave Ben and Jin trouble.

Sorry, just ranting to myself. Feel free to ignore me.

Two words.

Delta. Squad.

One Scorch is worth more than 10,000 droids. And he's the comic relief!

[Mando Knight]

Because a clone is actualy worth around 100 droids.

See Clone Wars. There the clones pull out all kind of crazy stunts despite being normaly horribly outnumbered. The droids are cut down like flies, and the only times they do something well is when they have a flesh being leading them.

It has something to do with hotbloodness and fighting spirit, that unmanned droids cannot replicate. The same reason why they use fighters with pilots when they should be able to make remote-controled fighters that don't need to worry about cockpits.

It helps that Jedi Knights are also worth a couple thousand a piece. And that the Jedi have a force multiplier effect on the troops due to morale. Throw in the Council members and similar-level Jedi who are worth practically a whole battlecruiser of droids each, and their ability to square the effective competency level of the commando-level clones, and you've got Rex, Cody, Anakin, and Obi-Wan taking a couple worlds back by themselves. From full garrisons of droids.

[FoE]

But droids would be effective against Aliens because they're more or less just animals. Incredible lethal animals, to be sure, but blasters more or less compensate. As I said, a droid can't be impregnanted, but more importantly, a droid isn't going to stop fighting because its limbs melt away in Alien Blood.

[Mando Knight]

As I said, a droid can't be impregnanted, but more importantly, a droid isn't going to stop fighting because its limbs melt away in Alien Blood.
It will stop fighting if the limbs that melt are the ones holding the guns. Or if the legs collapse in a way that it can't aim at the Aliens.

[Thrawn183]

I want to see what pops out when a facehugger implants a Sarlacc.

Edit: Or one of those giant space worms from ESB.

[Geiger Counter]

But droids would be effective against Aliens because they're more or less just animals. Incredible lethal animals, to be sure, but blasters more or less compensate. As I said, a droid can't be impregnanted, but more importantly, a droid isn't going to stop fighting because its limbs melt away in Alien Blood.

I wouldn't say they were just animals, in Alien resurection they made it clear that aliens cary the genetic memories of their host. Even when given their worst treatment (in aliens) there is a line about how can they do that when they are just dumb animals.

[golentan]

Organists. :smalltongue:

It's easy to build an AI that is adaptive, imaginative, intelligent, and hot-blooded. Just look at R2-D2. And adaptation only does so much good against a proper targeting algorithm with a calibrated firearm, as some of my scars attest.

And yeah, I always saw the aliens as at least upper end animal, maybe even sentient. It's hard to judge given that they have no training and no common language discounting some things I refuse to admit as canon, but they're pretty smart. If you took an uneducated human youth and plopped it in the middle of a bunch of (non-predatory) aliens, it's activities might be similar (adapted with improvised weapons instead of tooth and claw, of course).

[chiasaur11]

Organists. :smalltongue:

It's easy to build an AI that is adaptive, imaginative, intelligent, and hot-blooded. Just look at R2-D2. And adaptation only does so much good against a proper targeting algorithm with a calibrated firearm, as some of my scars attest.

And yeah, I always saw the aliens as at least upper end animal, maybe even sentient. It's hard to judge given that they have no training and no common language discounting some things I refuse to admit as canon, but they're pretty smart. If you took an uneducated human youth and plopped it in the middle of a bunch of (non-predatory) aliens, it's activities might be similar (adapted with improvised weapons instead of tooth and claw, of course).

We've seen what happens when you drop a kid in the middle of an alien hive.

She hides in the vent ducts and talks to a doll's head.

[Tavar]

I wouldn't say they were just animals, in Alien resurection they made it clear that aliens cary the genetic memories of their host. Even when given their worst treatment (in aliens) there is a line about how can they do that when they are just dumb animals.
What exactly qualifies as genetic memory? Because, it seems to include things that it shouldn't, like reading.

[Geiger Counter]

What exactly qualifies as genetic memory? Because, it seems to include things that it shouldn't, like reading.

The whole blind sight thing is simply because the makers of aliens didn't pay any attention to the mythology of the creature from alien. They have the qualities stolen from the jockey, a creature capable of growing an entire spaceship out it's back and it stands to reason that the alien's sensory abilities should rival that of the starship enterprise. Also in alien it's hard to notice but it does have eyes covered by a dome.

[Tavar]

The whole blind sight thing is simply because the makers of aliens didn't pay any attention to the mythology of the creature from alien. They have the qualities stolen from the jockey, a creature capable of growing an entire spaceship out it's back and it stands to reason that the alien's sensory abilities should rival that of the starship enterprise. Also in alien it's hard to notice but it does have eyes covered by a dome.
Umm...okay. But that doesn't reply to anything that I've asked.

What exactly qualifies as genetic memory? Because, it seems to include things that it shouldn't, like reading.
Also, how do we know that the jockey grew a spaceship out of his back?

And really, the sensory assumption is a huge one. If it grows a spaceship out of its back, it might have them, but until it does I think it lacks the systems.

[golentan]

We've seen what happens when you drop a kid in the middle of an alien hive.

She hides in the vent ducts and talks to a doll's head.

And if they weren't carnivorous (like I said), and she was hungry, she might have grabbed a pole, made a spear, and hunted from the ducts. And if she weren't educated, she'd have no language to use, and she wouldn't be able to learn the usage of machinery from anything more than a practical standpoint. She would, however, still have human intelligence and be able to device workarounds and ambush tactics against her opponents.

Sounds sort of familiar.

[Geiger Counter]

It's strongly implied that the chest burster fabricates it's adult body via a process similar to the way the jockey can grow a space faring vessel. Though this process has oddly never been shown in any of the movies so we can't be certain.

[Mando Knight]

Organists. :smalltongue:
The proper term is "Organicist" or "Organophile." Organist means you play an organ, which is proven to be the most epic instrument in existence, being at least 250% more epic than an electric guitar.

It's easy to build an AI that is adaptive, imaginative, intelligent, and hot-blooded. Just look at R2-D2. And adaptation only does so much good against a proper targeting algorithm with a calibrated firearm, as some of my scars attest.
It's not easy. R2 astromechs are almost unique in Star Wars in terms of human-like sapience.

[chiasaur11]

It's strongly implied that the chest burster fabricates it's adult body via a process similar to the way the jockey can grow a space faring vessel. Though this process has oddly never been shown in any of the movies so we can't be certain.

...Jockey didn't grow his ship in any material I seen, EU or not.

He's hooked in, sure. Sorta grown in, even. But nothing I seen says he grew the thing.

Edit: And Mando? Don't forget the HK series.

[Drakevarg]

Lesse what points I can make here...

For anyone who is not a Jedi, a lightsaber is an outdated and quite silly weapon, given that it only has melee range in a universe where HK-47 can take out your kneecaps from 1000 km away.

For a Jedi, lightsabers are handy because, being force-sensitive, you can anticipate any blaster shots and intuitively block them. Furthermore, they can cut through damn near anything. (I think the reason the heat doesn't hurt the wielder is indeed because of some sort of containment field.)

A clone is superior to a battle droid because a clone is usually more intelligent, more intuitive, more maneuverable, and has training based on Mandalorian tactics, aka, some of the best in the galaxy. A battle droid is clumsy and inefficient by comparison, even if they are vastly easier to produce.

R2-D2 is intelligent and has a distinct personality because he's never had a memory wipe. C-3P0 hasn't had a memory wipe in nearly 20 years, presumably. As such, over time they come across conditions that don't mesh neatly with their programming. As a result they analyze the situation and make use of the best compromise that occurs to them. As these scenarios occur, a droid gradually develops a "personality snarl", which is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. It's adlibbed compromises create personality quirks and, essentially, individuals. Personality snarls cannot be programmed, they have to occur organically.

Now onto the Xenomorphs. I think its safe to say that since Xenomorphs are not made of cortosis, they can be cut through and cauterized like anything else a lightsaber hits. However, Xenomorph blood appears to be highly pressurized and the thin organic coating drawn over the wound by the cauterization process may be insufficient to keep it from simply blasting through and spraying everything. Probably a hit-and-miss solution there.

My 2 cp.

[Mando Knight]

Edit: And Mando? Don't forget the HK series.

That's why I said almost unique. HK-47 is an outlier in the HK series as well, as is T3-M4. Also, in case anyone wants to bring up Goldenrod, 3PO is made for protocol, not combat, and lacks a lot of R2 and HK-47's lateral thinking abilities.

Come to think of it, most of the intelligent droids are outliers. Industrial Automaton's astromech series just have higher tendencies towards developing it, thanks to their need to multitask in several functions (most notably as a fighter's co-pilot/systems engineer/whatever).

Lightsabers are actually useful in Star Wars: you might be surprised at how much fighting occurs in urban areas or in starship corridors, where snipers usually take things out at tens of meters rather than hundreds. If I had a nickel for every clanker I've knifed in Republic Commando, I'd have enough to buy me a new DSi XL.

[chiasaur11]

That's why I said almost unique. HK-47 is an outlier in the HK series as well, as is T3-M4. Also, in case anyone wants to bring up Goldenrod, 3PO is made for protocol, not combat, and lacks a lot of R2 and HK-47's lateral thinking abilities.

Come to think of it, most of the intelligent droids are outliers. Industrial Automaton's astromech series just have higher tendencies towards developing it, thanks to their need to multitask in several functions (most notably as a fighter's co-pilot/systems engineer/whatever).

Lightsabers are actually useful in Star Wars: you might be surprised at how much fighting occurs in urban areas or in starship corridors, where snipers usually take things out at tens of meters rather than hundreds. If I had a nickel for every clanker I've knifed in Republic Commando, I'd have enough to buy me a new DSi XL.

You and me both.

Make it trandos, and I could get a respectable game library to go with it.

Still, having the sniper rifle attachment saved my butt plenty.

[warty goblin]

Lightsabers are actually useful in Star Wars: you might be surprised at how much fighting occurs in urban areas or in starship corridors, where snipers usually take things out at tens of meters rather than hundreds. If I had a nickel for every clanker I've knifed in Republic Commando, I'd have enough to buy me a new DSi XL.

Lightsabers are only useful for boarding actions because for some reason all the people fighting the Jedi are remarkably well behaved and never show up with an honest to gods flamethrower* or serious combat shotgun.

*Jango's flamethrower really doesn't count. OK, it throws flame, but not in particularly impressive quantities. Seriously, Xena blows more impressive fireballs than that using a torch and hard alcohol. No, I'm talking about something more like this (http://www.montgomeryaviationphotography.com/reading2006/Resized_flamethrower3.jpg).

[golentan]

Lightsabers are only useful for boarding actions because for some reason all the people fighting the Jedi are remarkably well behaved and never show up with an honest to gods flamethrower* or serious combat shotgun.

*Jango's flamethrower really doesn't count. OK, it throws flame, but not in particularly impressive quantities. Seriously, Xena blows more impressive fireballs than that using a torch and hard alcohol. No, I'm talking about something more like this (http://www.montgomeryaviationphotography.com/reading2006/Resized_flamethrower3.jpg).

Forget flamers, why not just electrify the hull on the outer decks. With the sort of power attributed to even the smallest ships, even folks wearing a meter thick rubber body suit will be coming in extra crispy.

[Mando Knight]

You and me both.

Make it trandos, and I could get a respectable game library to go with it.

Still, having the sniper rifle attachment saved my butt plenty.

I think I've shotgun- and pistol-whipped trandos more than I've knifed 'em.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Nuke it from orbit.

[Drakevarg]

Lightsabers are only useful for boarding actions because for some reason all the people fighting the Jedi are remarkably well behaved and never show up with an honest to gods flamethrower* or serious combat shotgun.

*Jango's flamethrower really doesn't count. OK, it throws flame, but not in particularly impressive quantities. Seriously, Xena blows more impressive fireballs than that using a torch and hard alcohol. No, I'm talking about something more like this (http://www.montgomeryaviationphotography.com/reading2006/Resized_flamethrower3.jpg).

Force Push. Now you're on fire.

[Optimystik]

Force Push. Now you're on fire.

Or Force Lightning, targeting the highly volatile and pressurized metal can of accelerant strapped to your back.

Or Force Speed to get behind you.

Or Force Bubble, wrapped around you and the flame you just shot out.

Or...

[warty goblin]

Or Force Lightning, targeting the highly volatile and pressurized metal can of accelerant strapped to your back.

Or Force Speed to get behind you.

Or Force Bubble, wrapped around you and the flame you just shot out.

Or...

Do Jedi in the movies ever do any of these things? OK, the Sith use Force Lightning, so that's basically two people in the entire galaxy you have to worry about. And for them, there's Ray Shields, which Revenge of the Sith makes it abundantly clear stop Jedi dead in their tracks.

Really, why they don't install those things at every major corridor junction is a mystery to me. Once you've got the enemy blocked in, you can have fun with, say, mustard gas.

[Kris Strife]

Do Jedi in the movies ever do any of these things? OK, the Sith use Force Lightning, so that's basically two people in the entire galaxy you have to worry about. And for them, there's Ray Shields, which Revenge of the Sith makes it abundantly clear stop Jedi dead in their tracks.

Really, why they don't install those things at every major corridor junction is a mystery to me. Once you've got the enemy blocked in, you can have fun with, say, mustard gas.

Yes, lets release lethal gas in various corridours on our ship, which has an enclosed atmosphere. Nothing bad can come of that!

[chiasaur11]

Yes, lets release lethal gas in various corridours on our ship, which has an enclosed atmosphere. Nothing bad can come of that!

Not if your ship is crewed by robots or guys who can seal down their armor.

Like both sides in the clone war.

[Tyrant]

Really, why they don't install those things at every major corridor junction is a mystery to me. Once you've got the enemy blocked in, you can have fun with, say, mustard gas.
I'm pretty sure they tried a similar plan in the Phantom Menace. It didn't work. I'm also relatively certain that had they not been immediately surrounded (and had their "helpless" leader to worry about) Anakin and Obi Wan would've simply cut through the floor. I would say the better overall idea would be to simply have no life support and completely automate the ships, but that assumes they can actually make decent AI to run things and the CIS seems to be lacking in that department. Of course then the Jedi would just wear clone battle armor.

The real reason they are seemingly incompotent is because Palpatine is running both sides of the war. The clones are many times better than droids, but the droids could win by sheer weight of numbers if it came down to it. Without Palpatine holding the back the CIS, they should win. However he needs the war to drag on so he gets more war powers and so the Jedi are further lead down the wrong path (generals fighting on the front line instead of peace keepers and diplomats) so they will continue to not notice him. The Jedi are probably the only thing that keeps the CIS from winning the war by pure accident (increasingly aggressivee commanders emboldened by victory after victory coupled with more and more systems surrendering could lead to the war being over a lot faster than Palpatine wanted). I also think Palpatine wanted the CIS to be the loser, and that is easier to make happen with the Jedi still around to back up the clones.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure in at least one of the books the droids are armed with shotgun like weapons and blow right through the Jedi. It's not that they don't have the weapons, they just don't use them. I assume there has to be a reason (if we try to make it work and not just assume it's bad writing).

[Kumo]

Do Jedi in the movies ever do any of these things? OK, the Sith use Force Lightning, so that's basically two people in the entire galaxy you have to worry about. And for them, there's Ray Shields, which Revenge of the Sith makes it abundantly clear stop Jedi dead in their tracks.

Really, why they don't install those things at every major corridor junction is a mystery to me. Once you've got the enemy blocked in, you can have fun with, say, mustard gas.
Technically jedi can use force lightning too, but they generally choose not to because it's such an aggressive way to use the force. Luke Skywalker could use an emerald version of it, Revan, Kyle Katarn, the Exile, Vader's apprentice...


Having said that, I'm pretty sure in at least one of the books the droids are armed with shotgun like weapons and blow right through the Jedi. It's not that they don't have the weapons, they just don't use them. I assume there has to be a reason (if we try to make it work and not just assume it's bad writing).

Killing a jedi isn't difficult if you're two things: one, smart about it, and two, spontaneous. Planning it out makes it more likely for them to sense your intent ahead of time. It was one reason why Order 66 worked on most of the Jedi, and one why Yoda survived (aside from him being totally awesome, of course) Yoda was the only one in that sequence whose Soldiers snuck up behind him instead of just starting to open fire. Another reason was the Clone's preprogammed docileness, but you get the idea.

A large part of the jedi's influence comes from the fact that everyone knows they're powerful but nobody is really sure what they're capable of. It's next to impossible to overestimate them but as you've noticed, people assume they are, and pay the price.

But in answer to the thread's question, it would work to stop the initial splash for sure, but whether or not it continues to spill depends on the properties of the xenomorph's flesh. Can dead flesh be burned away by it's blood? if it can, the acid comes out in a few moments anyway.

[Drakevarg]

But in answer to the thread's question, it would work to stop the initial splash for sure, but whether or not it continues to spill depends on the properties of the xenomorph's flesh. Can dead flesh be burned away by it's blood? if it can, the acid comes out in a few moments anyway.

At least according to AVP, Xenomorph skin is inherently resistant to its own blood. If you don't consider AVP canon, which is entirely reasonable, this is still probable. At the very least, their circulatory system is resistant to it, or they wouldn't be able to exist at all.

As for the gas thing, it's pretty evident that Jedi can resist lethal gas, at least temporarily. Otherwise the series would've ended a few minutes into Episode I.

And simply having no life support isn't an option, since pretty much all CIS ships have at least a few living crewmembers (probably Nemodian navigators.) I suppose only having life support in the cockpit would be an option.

[GoC]

The droid warfare always bothered me.

Star Wars warfare has always bothered me. I could write a 10 page essay on what is wrong with it.

Also, putting AI with vision (let alone sapience) in sci-fi ALWAYS seems to bring up problems (the only exception I can think of is the Culture which just made their AIs super powerful).

[warty goblin]

Star Wars warfare has always bothered me. I could write a 10 page essay on what is wrong with it.

Can I coauthor?

[Eerie]

How about a Lightsaber-wielding Xenomorph? I think the universe will explode.

Not enough? Well, Lightsaber-wielding Sith Xenomorph will do fine...

[chiasaur11]

How about a Lightsaber-wielding Xenomorph? I think the universe will explode.

Not enough? Well, Lightsaber-wielding Sith Xenomorph will do fine...

A Jedi Xenomorph would be more amusing, in a "what is wrong with you?" sense.

[Ormagoden]

From what I can understand, the Xenomorphs spray their acid blood everywhere when they are either stabbed, slashed, or shot with a normal weapon.

Understanding the properties of a lightsaber, it cauterizes any wound it makes, therefore causing wounds from lightsabers to not bleed.

Therefore, would a lightsaber be useable against a Xenomorph without the risk of acid spray onto the wielder?

You don't by chance play DnD in a martial arts dojo on saturdays do you?
One of my DM's was talking about this then.

[Mando Knight]

I'm also relatively certain that had they not been immediately surrounded (and had their "helpless" leader to worry about) Anakin and Obi Wan would've simply cut through the floor.

They do it in the deleted scenes before they get to Palpatine. The Supers flanking them try to follow, but fail.

[chiasaur11]

They do it in the deleted scenes before they get to Palpatine. The Supers flanking them try to follow, but fail.

Because, if you aren't playing Republic Commando, super battle droids are worthless.

[Mando Knight]

Because, if you aren't playing Republic Commando, super battle droids are worthless.

They're still worthless so long as you've got at least one droid popper or anti-armor charge left. They just somehow become more resilient than phase 2 Dark Troopers... :smallyuk:

[golentan]

Can I coauthor?

I'd also like to assist...

[Tyrant]

They do it in the deleted scenes before they get to Palpatine. The Supers flanking them try to follow, but fail.
I think I recall that scene now that you mention it. Didn't they wind up in a fuel tank or something?

[GoC]

Can I coauthor?
Assuming I ever get round to it? Absolutely!


Or Force Lightning, targeting the highly volatile and pressurized metal can of accelerant strapped to your back.

Or Force Speed to get behind you.

Or Force Bubble, wrapped around you and the flame you just shot out.

Or...
Eh...
You could use guns just as well as any of these three against flamethrower dudes. If you've got time to react and you're at close range then the other dude is dead anyway.

[Geiger Counter]

I'm not sure what about starwars bothers me more, the fact that a group of powerful psychics couldn't detect the upcoming betrayal of billions of clones or the idea that simply by destroying the second deathstar and killing the emperor means they defeated the galaxy spanning empire.

[Texas_Ben]

The idea that simply by destroying the second deathstar and killing the emperor means they defeated the galaxy spanning empire.
...Except that that's not how it happened. The empire hung around for a long time after the Death Star got asploded. That was just the turning point.

If you're going to complain, complain about things that are correct.

[Tavar]

I'm not sure what about starwars bothers me more, the fact that a group of powerful psychics couldn't detect the upcoming betrayal of billions of clones
Well, Texas Ben responded to the second charge, so I guess I'll take the first one. Now, I'm not saying that the prequels didn't have problems, but this wasn't one of them. The Jedi explain in the second movie that their visions of the future are becoming murky (and while it's not directly stated, it's heavily implied that it's because of Palpatine). So, the Jedi knew that there was danger, but knowing that danger exists is different than knowing what that danger is. Especially since many of the strongest jedi were in battle, and thus any warning were either overshadowed by the more immediate danger from the enemy, or were misinterpreted as due to the enemies presence.

[Graymayre]

It should be noted that xeno bodies are made of silicon, not carbon. You have to look in whether or not silicon can cauterize as easily as carbon (unlikely).

[golentan]

It should be noted that xeno bodies are made of silicon, not carbon. You have to look in whether or not silicon can cauterize as easily as carbon (unlikely).

It's not carbon that cauterizes, cauterization is the result of complex chains being denatured by heat and tangling and the evaporation of fluid causing rapid deflation. Both of which should affect silicon life.

And the xenos can't be silicon, they eat humans. There's no way that they could get basic growth components and energy forms they could process from just about anything in any of the human ships/bases we see.

[chiasaur11]

It's not carbon that cauterizes, cauterization is the result of complex chains being denatured by heat and tangling and the evaporation of fluid causing rapid deflation. Both of which should affect silicon life.

And the xenos can't be silicon, they eat humans. There's no way that they could get basic growth components and energy forms they could process from just about anything in any of the human ships/bases we see.

Ever read the Colonial Marine Technical Manual?

Waylan Yutani is as confused as you are.

[Geiger Counter]

It's not carbon that cauterizes, cauterization is the result of complex chains being denatured by heat and tangling and the evaporation of fluid causing rapid deflation. Both of which should affect silicon life.

And the xenos can't be silicon, they eat humans. There's no way that they could get basic growth components and energy forms they could process from just about anything in any of the human ships/bases we see.

One thing I am very glad they got right in all the movies is that Xenomorphs (or should I say moonbeasts) do not eat, not flesh at least, I would type them as living constructs. They use their "tongues?" to cause brain damage and glue them to a wall to be made into another xenomorph. If they ate humans they'd never be able to expand their numbers. I suspect that xenomorphs metabolism is based on some sort of fusion process as their bodies are based off a creature who was part of a living starship. The fact that xenomorphs have a very parasitic method of reproduction makes me think that whatever they infected to reproduce before they encountered the jockey had a very high rate of reproduction and a very short lifespan (And probably had a long lizard/scorpion tail as both humans and jockeys lack this), that or the xenomorphs were an engineered species.

[golentan]

One thing I am very glad they got right in all the movies is that Xenomorphs (or should I say moonbeasts) do not eat, not flesh at least, I would type them as living constructs. They use their "tongues?" to cause brain damage and glue them to a wall to be made into another xenomorph. If they ate humans they'd never be able to expand their numbers. I suspect that xenomorphs metabolism is based on some sort of fusion process as their bodies are based off a creature who was part of a living starship. The fact that xenomorphs have a very parasitic method of reproduction makes me think that whatever they infected to reproduce before they encountered the jockey had a very high rate of reproduction and a very short lifespan (And probably had a long lizard/scorpion tail as both humans and jockeys lack this), that or the xenomorphs were an engineered species.

They emit water. They don't drink water visibly, they emit water. You wouldn't get that with fusion. You would get that with a fast enough chemical metabolism. Fusion needs to stop being used as science fiction's phlebotinum answer to energy problems: yes, it's a good answer for things but the way that it's used raises more problems. Like in the matrix. If you combine humans with fusion, you're losing energy compared to if you just use the fusion. It would have made more sense if they went the same way as gurren lagann and hypothesized spiral power.

There's no need (or in fact advantage) for a parasitic reproduction method either: if you're looking for a stable environment it's a lot easier to produce it yourself then relying on a supply of prey animals, and if they are incapable of eating humans that negates the advantage that some specie of wasps use: a large food source to grow in. And they do grow. That requires food and energy, from somewhere.

Engineered species doesn't make sense either. There are a million and one ways to improve them beyond what is shown if you're building from scratch, especially if they're silicon based and/or fusion powered.

If they ate humans, on the other hand, they wouldn't be able to increase their numbers in the absence of food, but would act much the way we see in the movies. I think that the alien franchise, IMO after Aliens but definitely in all the material after Alien 3, is a tremendous example of why there are some works where the audience should ignore the opinions of the authors and peripheral works.

[Graymayre]

It's not carbon that cauterizes, cauterization is the result of complex chains being denatured by heat and tangling and the evaporation of fluid causing rapid deflation. Both of which should affect silicon life.

And the xenos can't be silicon, they eat humans. There's no way that they could get basic growth components and energy forms they could process from just about anything in any of the human ships/bases we see.

I never said that it wasn't retarded.

a recent cracked.com article (http://www.cracked.com/article_18438_6-movie-monsters-that-just-wouldnt-work.html) pointed me to this diagnostic essay (http://www.anchorpointessays.com/stage1.html) which is what I'm basing this on.

[SolkaTruesilver]

the jedi were blind to the clone army itself. They did not knew it existed, and they never saw coming their betrayal.

I think it has to do with the fact that they might be registering as a single being, causing some sort of interference. But that's pure speculation.

[Geiger Counter]

They emit water. They don't drink water visibly, they emit water. You wouldn't get that with fusion. You would get that with a fast enough chemical metabolism.

They emit a clear liquid, that's not necessarily water. Also when you burn hydrogen don't you get water. I don't know much about physics, but whatever xenomorphs need to survive (after acquiring the traits of jockeys) it was on that ship, and it didn't eat the cat.

[chiasaur11]

the jedi were blind to the clone army itself. They did not knew it existed, and they never saw coming their betrayal.

I think it has to do with the fact that they might be registering as a single being, causing some sort of interference. But that's pure speculation.

Hey.

When RC 1138 doesn't want to be spotted, he isn't spotted.

[golentan]

They emit a clear liquid, that's not necessarily water. Also when you burn hydrogen don't you get water. I don't know much about physics, but whatever xenomorphs need to survive (after acquiring the traits of jockeys) it was on that ship, and it didn't eat the cat.

Burning is Oxygenation. Oxygen + Hydrogen = water (Hence the "Hydro" in hydrogen) and is exothermic. Water is the single most common clear liquid in the universe, and is about as viscous as what the aliens emit. And every metabolic process on earth works on the principle of stripping of hydrogen and carbon bonds to produce water + CO2 + Energy. Even plants, they just run it backwards first to build up enough food to burn. Not that others aren't possible, but you're then relying on rare stuff cosmically speaking, and severely limiting your survival capacity. I do know a fair bit about physics.

Not eating the cat proves nothing. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be killing large prey animals (humans) and storing them. Big cats'll do that, and it fits with the hive images we see as well. There are problems with not seeing it really eat before significant growth, though.

[Geiger Counter]

They emit water. They don't drink water visibly, they emit water. You wouldn't get that with fusion. You would get that with a fast enough chemical metabolism. Fusion needs to stop being used as science fiction's phlebotinum answer to energy problems: yes, it's a good answer for things but the way that it's used raises more problems. Like in the matrix. If you combine humans with fusion, you're losing energy compared to if you just use the fusion. It would have made more sense if they went the same way as gurren lagann and hypothesized spiral power.

Okay maybe fusion was not the correct word, as a side note do you think breathing in hydrogen and burning it to make water is a viable metabolism?

But basically even though all the xenomorphs in the films were mixed with humans, they seemed to have more in common with the Jockey. And the jockey with it's extremely limited mobility does not seem to be much of a candidate to be a carnivore. The Jockey is a creature that can survive the travel in the great bleak void between the solar systems, what kind of metabolism would a creature like that have? My guess an extremely efficient and adaptive one, probably able to metabolize just about anything, nothing living though.


There's no need (or in fact advantage) for a parasitic reproduction method either: if you're looking for a stable environment it's a lot easier to produce it yourself then relying on a supply of prey animals, and if they are incapable of eating humans that negates the advantage that some specie of wasps use: a large food source to grow in. And they do grow. That requires food and energy, from somewhere.

I believe that all insects would fall under the category of reproducing rapidly and having brief lifespans.

IMO the xenomorphs requiring a queen is just as inappropriate as the borg requiring one.

[GoC]

They emit a clear liquid, that's not necessarily water. Also when you burn hydrogen don't you get water. I don't know much about physics, but whatever xenomorphs need to survive (after acquiring the traits of jockeys) it was on that ship, and it didn't eat the cat.
Indeed, but it doesn't seem our physics fits with what was observed about Xenomorphs. This means they are powered by "magic".


Okay maybe fusion was not the correct word, as a side note do you think breathing in hydrogen and burning it to make water is a viable metabolism?
You mean that 0.000055% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere of Earth) Hydrogen?:smallamused:


The Jockey is a creature that can survive the travel in the great bleak void between the solar systems, what kind of metabolism would a creature like that have? My guess an extremely efficient and adaptive one, probably able to metabolize just about anything, nothing living though.
A magic powered one. Nothing less would suffice. It takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to travel to another star system if you aren't firing ions out your butt at 0.5c.

[Texas_Ben]

Water is the single most common clear liquid in the universe, and is about as viscous as what the aliens emit.
We don't know anywhere near enough about the universe to make a claim like that. It's certainly the most common clear liquid on this planet, but since even finding frozen water on mars and the moon was a big deal, I'm skeptical of the claim that water is the "most common clear liquid in the universe", especially when we've got a couple gas giants parked a bit away which contain quite a bit of liquid hydrogen and helium which are both, unless I am mistaken, clear liquids.
[/nitpicking]


as a side note do you think breathing in hydrogen and burning it to make water is a viable metabolism?
Only if you have an atmosphere high enough in both oxygen and hydrogen to permit it. And if you did have such an atmosphere, the first time there was a lightning strike, the entire atmosphere would combust and you'd have a whole lot of water.

[Eldan]

Well, not every kind of metabolism depends on carbohydrates as an energy source. There's some weird stuff out there in the bacterial world. Sulphur metabolism, or compounds other than oxygen used in it's function. All those critters still require carbohydrates to build their own carbohydrates.

Anyway, the problem with Xenomorph reproduction seems to be this, to me:

Small Xenomorph (little silicon) + human (a lot of carbon) = large Xenomorph (A lot of silicon).

Where does the silicon come from?

[golentan]

Okay maybe fusion was not the correct word, as a side note do you think breathing in hydrogen and burning it to make water is a viable metabolism?

No.


But basically even though all the xenomorphs in the films were mixed with humans, they seemed to have more in common with the Jockey. And the jockey with it's extremely limited mobility does not seem to be much of a candidate to be a carnivore. The Jockey is a creature that can survive the travel in the great bleak void between the solar systems, what kind of metabolism would a creature like that have? My guess an extremely efficient and adaptive one, probably able to metabolize just about anything, nothing living though.

We don't really know that. We never see a live jockey, and they didn't go through the entire ship. For all you know it has a 50 ton pile of hostess snack cakes that it was hoarding for the journey.

I'd also more expect a truly space adapted life form to function as a closed system reliant on stellar radiation for energy to avoid entropic death, rather than hoping it comes across a supply of complex chemicals that'll be exothermic when consumed every however often.


I believe that all insects would fall under the category of reproducing rapidly and having brief lifespans.

IMO the xenomorphs requiring a queen is just as inappropriate as the borg requiring one.

What does that have to do with my complaint about the benefits of parasitic reproduction? At all?


We don't know anywhere near enough about the universe to make a claim like that. It's certainly the most common clear liquid on this planet, but since even finding frozen water on mars and the moon was a big deal, I'm skeptical of the claim that water is the "most common clear liquid in the universe", especially when we've got a couple gas giants parked a bit away which contain quite a bit of liquid hydrogen and helium which are both, unless I am mistaken, clear liquids.
[/nitpicking]

Oh, come on. Spectrography means we're pretty sure of the chemical composition of our neck of the universe, and regardless I was referring to liquids at the temperatures and pressures the alien is seen surviving in (which hydrogen and helium would be gaseous at).


Only if you have an atmosphere high enough in both oxygen and hydrogen to permit it. And if you did have such an atmosphere, the first time there was a lightning strike, the entire atmosphere would combust and you'd have a whole lot of water.

Hehehe... That would be pretty cool to watch.

[Eldan]

I believe that all insects would fall under the category of reproducing rapidly and having brief lifespans.



Not really, no. Dragonflies are a good example, some live for up to ten years.

[Geiger Counter]

My point was any IRL example of creatures with a highly parasitic lifestyle tend to depend on creatures with high rates of reproduction and short lifespans. I don't think any creature implants eggs in dragonflies.

The idea that the chestburster is silicon basted is idiotic and sounds like it came from one of the video games it obviously is made of the same stuff as the human body. The chestburster must have fabricated it's adult body from what was around, metals and plastics. If their is neither of these around it might use whatever hard rock and possibly whatever tree/corral-like organisms are available.

Just to rant more on the queen, the whole idea behind the creature is that it uses what is available at the time, the queen looks nothing like a human or a jockey, if one type of xenomorphs physiology is not dependent upon it's host then why is this the case for the rest of them?

[Eldan]

General rule in biology: there are more parasites than non-parasites, since just about every creature has parasites and parasitoids on it. So you can bet dragonflies have some.

[Oslecamo]

Not really, no. Dragonflies are a good example, some live for up to ten years.

Ant queens can last up for a quarter of century.

Note however that those are top tier beings of their enviroment. The dragonfly is a pretty good flier that hunts most other nearby insects with deadly effeciency.

The ant queen's army of daughters will kill dragonflies if they dare to land near them.

On parasites, you need to take in acount one parasite can infect several diferent species, so even if most stuff out there has parasites, that doesn't mean there's a lot of variety out there.

[Texas_Ben]

My point was any IRL example of creatures with a highly parasitic lifestyle tend to depend on creatures with high rates of reproduction and short lifespans. I don't think any creature implants eggs in dragonflies.


Plenty of parasites that attack humans, and we breed pretty slowly (comparatively) and live a long time.

[Eldan]

Yup. You'd just have to have a look at that ~8 meter long sperm whale tape worm my old school kept in a cabinet.

[Geiger Counter]

Plenty of parasites that attack humans, and we breed pretty slowly (comparatively) and live a long time.

I should rephrase that, what I meant was fatal parasites. It is not a particularly good evolutionary idea for any sort of parasite to be fatal to it's host.

[Mando Knight]

I should rephrase that, what I meant was fatal parasites. It is not a particularly good evolutionary idea for any sort of parasite to be fatal to it's host.

Unless it's the type of parasite that goes from host to host or is born in the host, but lives most of its life outside it...

[Kumo]

As for the gas thing, it's pretty evident that Jedi can resist lethal gas, at least temporarily. Otherwise the series would've ended a few minutes into Episode I.

Actually the explanation for that is a lot less awesome: jedi can hold their breath for ridiculous periods of time by using the force to slow down their oxygen usage. Or something. I'm not really clear on how it works.

[Geiger Counter]

This reminds me of a particularly interesting image.
http://www.polaine.com/matt/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/1207628525ixbnxhj.jpg

[Mando Knight]

Actually the explanation for that is a lot less awesome: jedi can hold their breath for ridiculous periods of time by using the force to slow down their oxygen usage. Or something. I'm not really clear on how it works.

They can also learn techniques to make themselves immune to poison, cure diseases, suck the poison out and store it in their eyes so they can shoot it at enemies later (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/9p30)...

[Eldan]

I should rephrase that, what I meant was fatal parasites. It is not a particularly good evolutionary idea for any sort of parasite to be fatal to it's host.

Those would be parasitoids. Also quite common, if not as much as parasites. And yes, those occur more often in numerous hosts.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Actually the explanation for that is a lot less awesome: jedi can hold their breath for ridiculous periods of time by using the force to slow down their oxygen usage. Or something. I'm not really clear on how it works.
But they need rebreathers to go to the Gungan city.

[Kumo]

But they need rebreathers to go to the Gungan city.

They had no idea how long they would be down there (EDIT: or how far), and there's still the matter of water pressure.

please don't ask "then why didn't they use rebreathers in the poison gas room". PLEASE.

Although i am kind of curious why they had rebreathers on a diplomatic mission.

[Tavar]

please don't ask "then why didn't they use rebreathers in the poison gas room". PLEASE.

Although i am kind of curious why they had rebreathers on a diplomatic mission.
Rebreathers work on water, not on poison, perhaps?

Also, it's part of their standard kit, from what I remember..

[GoC]

They had no idea how long they would be down there (EDIT: or how far), and there's still the matter of water pressure.
Hehehe. That whole planet was kind of impossible wasn't it?


please don't ask "then why didn't they use rebreathers in the poison gas room". PLEASE.
Why not?:smallconfused:
If it was a contact poison then holding their breath wouldn't have worked.

[The Glyphstone]

They had no idea how long they would be down there (EDIT: or how far), and there's still the matter of water pressure.

please don't ask "then why didn't they use rebreathers in the poison gas room". PLEASE.

Although i am kind of curious why they had rebreathers on a diplomatic mission.

Because Qui-Gon had two gold left to spend and rebreathers cost 1 gold each. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0023.html)

[Kumo]

Why not?:smallconfused:
If it was a contact poison then holding their breath wouldn't have worked.

Good thing it wasn't contact then.

[GoC]

Good thing it wasn't contact then.
So...
You're saying they did use their rebreathers there?

[Kumo]

So...
You're saying they did use their rebreathers there?

*facepalm*

No, it's a jedi trick where they can extend how long the oxygen in their lungs lasts.

[GoC]

*facepalm*

No, it's a jedi trick where they can extend how long the oxygen in their lungs lasts.
...So they didn't use the rebreathers so they would be able to show off their jedi skills?:smallconfused:
Sorry, I'm a bit slow today.:smallsigh:

[Tavar]

...So they didn't use the rebreathers so they would be able to show off their jedi skills?:smallconfused:
Sorry, I'm a bit slow today.:smallsigh:
Again, from the lore, rebreathers aren't gas masks. Something about taking the oxygen from the water, or something. If they had used them, they still would have breathed in the poison. I believe I've said this already.

[Tyrant]

Again, from the lore, rebreathers aren't gas masks. Something about taking the oxygen from the water, or something. If they had used them, they still would have breathed in the poison. I believe I've said this already.
To expand on that and hopefully preanswer the question of "So why didn't they just hold their breath for the swim?", as someone already mentioned, they had no idea how deep they were going. The logical follow up, I suppose, is "but they didn't know how the long the gas would fill the room either". That's true. With the room, however, they could literally cut their way out if it came down to it. You can't cut your way out of being really deep below the surface of a body of water, even in Star Wars (though I assume eitther the Imperial Remnant or the New Republic is hard at work to solve this shortcoming even now). That will hopefully end this little circle. If not, just write it off as bad writing.

[Kumo]

Funny thing is, a lot of stuff i've heard attributed to bad writing in star wars is actually strict adherence to that world's natural rules or things that were taken out of the script. Someone once complained that anakin jumped to conclusions about Padme sleeping with Obi-Wan, but in the original script there were scenes where Palpatine told Anakin there were rumors of Obi-Wan seeing a senator - though he added that the rumors didn't say who. Someone asked why the death star's exhaust port had no defenses - it DID. a crudload of turrets and ray shields that neccesitated proton torpedos and tiny fighter squadrons. And they couldn't just cover the hole because the exhaust still needed to leave.

[GoC]

Funny thing is, a lot of stuff i've heard attributed to bad writing in star wars is actually strict adherence to that world's natural rules or things that were taken out of the script.
Three words for you: Robots. Warfare. And Coruscant.
The three inconsistencies there can be explained away by nothing less than magic. But just for fun... do you see any inconsistencies in Star Wars at all? If so which are they?

[Kumo]

Three words for you: Robots. Warfare. And Coruscant.
The three inconsistencies there can be explained away by nothing less than magic. But just for fun... do you see any inconsistencies in Star Wars at all? If so which are they?

I'm not sure what you mean by those three things. Coruscant's idea is ridiculous, perhaps, but i see no inconsistency.

If pressed, it would be vague memories Leia has of her mother. Though those might just be subconcious things. i have vague memories of being in a swing set in the foryer when i was 2 and a half months old.

[Optimystik]

Funny thing is, a lot of stuff i've heard attributed to bad writing in star wars is actually strict adherence to that world's natural rules or things that were taken out of the script. Someone once complained that anakin jumped to conclusions about Padme sleeping with Obi-Wan, but in the original script there were scenes where Palpatine told Anakin there were rumors of Obi-Wan seeing a senator - though he added that the rumors didn't say who.

It's impossible to judge a movie on what is removed from the script, any more than we can judge it based on the expanded U. What we see is what we get. And if removing that one detail was truly enough to make Anakin's conclusion nonsensical, they should have found a way to keep it in.


Someone asked why the death star's exhaust port had no defenses - it DID. a crudload of turrets and ray shields that neccesitated proton torpedos and tiny fighter squadrons. And they couldn't just cover the hole because the exhaust still needed to leave.

In most vehicles, the exhaust port is a looong ways away (in relative terms) from the engine (or "reactor core" in this case.) I'm not sure why the port was kept such a small distance away from the engine on a space station save for plot reasons.

[GoC]

If pressed, it would be vague memories Leia has of her mother. Though those might just be subconcious things. i have vague memories of being in a swing set in the foryer when i was 2 and a half months old.
Nothing else? That's the only "inconsistency" you can think of?
How much of star wars have you seen? All the movies? Any EU?

[Kumo]

Nothing else? That's the only "inconsistency" you can think of?
How much of star wars have you seen? All the movies? Any EU?

the movies and a few books whose canoncy is questionable at best.

[Ossian]

I'm not sure what you mean by those three things. Coruscant's idea is ridiculous, perhaps, but i see no inconsistency.

If pressed, it would be vague memories Leia has of her mother. Though those might just be subconcious things. i have vague memories of being in a swing set in the foryer when i was 2 and a half months old.

Although she might have been referring to Senator Bail Organa's wife. Who knows, maybe she too died, and that could have happened when Leia was too young to remember her clearly. It reeks of ret-conning, but it is not the most absurd thing in the history of Sci Fi movies, after all.

The death star's exhaust...uh....well, forget the defenses or the distance from the reactor. Why was it there in the first place :)
I love SW but come to think of it, a station the size of a small moon with a black hole at its core and laser that pulverizes planets, well, does not seem in too dire a need of a Victorian steam-exhaust, much less one where a torpedo can bounce fly in a straight line (windings?, anyone? ) down to the main reactor core (which wasn't itself shielded?). Well, after all it is a flaw in the construction. A big one...

[Kumo]

Although she might have been referring to Senator Bail Organa's wife. Who knows, maybe she too died, and that could have happened when Leia was too young to remember her clearly. It reeks of ret-conning, but it is not the most absurd thing in the history of Sci Fi movies, after all.*shrug* seems more to me like her being Luke's sister was slapped on at the last minute.

Honestly, what does it really do besides shoot down the romance?


The death star's exhaust...uh....well, forget the defenses or the distance from the reactor. Why was it there in the first place :)A better question would be why wasn't it bigger, given the energy output a world-destroying station would have.

But as to the other questions, it wasn't 'close'. just 'close enough'.


I love SW but come to think of it, a station the size of a small moon with a black hole at its core and laser that pulverizes planets, well, does not seem in too dire a need of a Victorian steam-exhaust, much less one where a torpedo can bounce fly in a straight line (windings?, anyone? ) down to the main reactor core (which wasn't itself shielded?). Well, after all it is a flaw in the construction. A big one...It WAS shielded. that's why it needed proton torpedos to be taken down. The reactor itself wasn't shielded because A that would have hurt exhaust and B nobody expected anybody to get down there. It went down to the main reactor because that's where the exhaust came from.

I thought the torpedo was - for lack of a better comparison - a fire gas thing, the laser started a 'fire' which then went down the exhaust pipe and set off the reactor, which was then either corrected in the second death star or ignored by the rebels since it was tougher to hit than just flying straight down to it.

I don't remember any black hole at the core, i remember a very large room with a very large reactor made of transparisteel which led to a crapload of amplifiers.

[Texas_Ben]

I thought the torpedo was - for lack of a better comparison - a fire gas thing, the laser started a 'fire' which then went down the exhaust pipe and set off the reactor, which was then either corrected in the second death star or ignored by the rebels since it was tougher to hit than just flying straight down to it.

In one of the technology guides, it says that the second Death Star used a system which lead to waste being vented from a series of vents which were millimetres in diameter.

Everyone is holding the exhaust ports up as some huge obvious plot hole, but they're being silly. Putting aside, for the moment, the fact that the thing does lead straight to the reactor apparently, which *is* ridiculous, It's explicitly stated that the Empire doesn't consider that fighters would be any threat whatsoever to the Death Star. EVEN SO, recognizing the exhaust ports as a weakness, they put shields and tons of turrets around them. It's not like the presence of the exhaust ports was advertised either. The only reason they even knew about them was because they stole the plans to the thing.

[Tyrant]

In one of the technology guides, it says that the second Death Star used a system which lead to waste being vented from a series of vents which were millimetres in diameter.

Everyone is holding the exhaust ports up as some huge obvious plot hole, but they're being silly. Putting aside, for the moment, the fact that the thing does lead straight to the reactor apparently, which *is* ridiculous, It's explicitly stated that the Empire doesn't consider that fighters would be any threat whatsoever to the Death Star. EVEN SO, recognizing the exhaust ports as a weakness, they put shields and tons of turrets around them. It's not like the presence of the exhaust ports was advertised either. The only reason they even knew about them was because they stole the plans to the thing.
Let's also not forget that even the Rebels thought it was a near impossible shot and the guy who made it had a guiding hand to put it mildly. It was a last ditch attempt that ended in the ultimate lucky shot. While the flaw was one that should have been dealt with, it's hard to plan for all "lucky shots". Everything that is built has a weak point of some kind, somewhere. You can't plan for all possible outcomes.

[Texas_Ben]

Let's also not forget that even the Rebels thought it was a near impossible shot and the guy who made it had a guiding hand to put it mildly. It was a last ditch attempt that ended in the ultimate lucky shot. While the flaw was one that should have been dealt with, it's hard to plan for all "lucky shots". Everything that is built has a weak point of some kind, somewhere. You can't plan for all possible outcomes.
My point is that they *did* plan for it, to the extent that they thought was necessary. They shielded it, put it at the bottom of a huge trench, and filled the trench with guns. They also had fighters, but the commanding officer of the Death Star wouldn't allow them to be launched which is why only the fighters under Vader's personal command were launched.

[Tyrant]

My point is that they *did* plan for it, to the extent that they thought was necessary. They shielded it, put it at the bottom of a huge trench, and filled the trench with guns. They also had fighters, but the commanding officer of the Death Star wouldn't allow them to be launched which is why only the fighters under Vader's personal command were launched.
I was in agreement with your point. I was meaning you can't plan for the son of Vader to show up out of nowhere with Obi Wan guiding him to make the magic shot. They did plan for all the scenarios that were actually considered possible and not the ones that would get planners laughed out of the room (like Luke showing up).

[Texas_Ben]

Oooooh. Okay. Carry on then.

[Kumo]

My point is that they *did* plan for it, to the extent that they thought was necessary. They shielded it, put it at the bottom of a huge trench, and filled the trench with guns. They also had fighters, but the commanding officer of the Death Star wouldn't allow them to be launched which is why only the fighters under Vader's personal command were launched.

Fighters WERE launced. "We'll have to destroy them ship to ship. Get the crews to their fighters." Vader's personal wing was the only one that went in the trench but they weren't the only ones launched.

[Texas_Ben]

Fighters WERE launced. "We'll have to destroy them ship to ship. Get the crews to their fighters." Vader's personal wing was the only one that went in the trench but they weren't the only ones launched.

An order given by... Darth Vader. To the fighters under his command. They didn't launch all the fighters or it would have been GG for the rebels. I mean it had a complement of 7-9 thousand fighters. No way they're winning against that.

[chiasaur11]

An order given by... Darth Vader. To the fighters under his command. They didn't launch all the fighters or it would have been GG for the rebels. I mean it had a complement of 7-9 thousand fighters. No way they're winning against that.

Counterpoint:

The rebels had Wedge.

[imp_fireball]

In most vehicles, the exhaust port is a looong ways away (in relative terms) from the engine (or "reactor core" in this case.) I'm not sure why the port was kept such a small distance away from the engine on a space station save for plot reasons.

Or the proton torpedo could have had a 'find the engine' function built into its hardware, meaning it would go through the exhaust port and find the engine at a very fast speed.

[Texas_Ben]

Or the proton torpedo could have had a 'find the engine' function built into its hardware, meaning it would go through the exhaust port and find the engine at a very fast speed.

Rebel alliance talking to the weapons salesman: "Hey do these torpedoes come with a "find the engine" functionality where it can like maneuver inside thermal exhaust ports of moon-sized superweapons?"

Weapons dealer: "YEAH! SURE! NO PROBLEM!"

*Weapons dealer goes back to the office, talks to the engineers*

"So uh... I kind of told them that our torpedoes will maneuver inside thermal exhaust ports in order to find the power plant. They can do that right"

"no..."

"Well make it happen, this is a big sale"

"FML..."

[Tyrant]

Or the proton torpedo could have had a 'find the engine' function built into its hardware, meaning it would go through the exhaust port and find the engine at a very fast speed.
Not only that, but the reactor was at the center of the Death Star making it several kilometers from it's exhaust port. It wasn't "right next to it" in any reasonable scale. Though I did get the impression that the exhaust port was a straight shot so guidance likely amounted to "go straight" If anything, that was the flaw (if it was straight).

[Kumo]

In most vehicles, the exhaust port is a looong ways away (in relative terms) from the engine (or "reactor core" in this case.) I'm not sure why the port was kept such a small distance away from the engine on a space station save for plot reasons.

The core was at the center of the station, which was basically a giant sphere with a depression for a laser cannon, there weren't very many places you could put it that would change it's distance all that much.

The torpedo didn't go straight to the core, it started a chain reaction that THEN screwed up the core. Don't forget, the rebels had time to fly far enough away from the station to escape it's giant explosive destruction.


An order given by... Darth Vader. To the fighters under his command. They didn't launch all the fighters or it would have been GG for the rebels. I mean it had a complement of 7-9 thousand fighters. No way they're winning against that.

7-9 thousand fighters against every ship the rebel fleet could muster (which wasn't just the dozen or so in red wing and the other dozen in gold) would be unwinnable except that the death star wasn't equipped with that many seasoned soldiers. The death star was a space STATION first, remember. It had administrative responsibilities first, military second. Chances are a great deal of those forces had never seen real combat (i get this impression from a book whose canoncy is established where one of the survivors remarked that most of his wing had only done simulations.) and the empire was relying on the turbolasers and the death star's main cannon to protect it from any real threats.

Here's a question that occurs to me: why was the death star the only ship there when they had time to call in star destroyers? Aside from complete arrogance there's no real reason for it.

[Texas_Ben]

Here's a question that occurs to me: why was the death star the only ship there when they had time to call in star destroyers? Aside from complete arrogance there's no real reason for it.
Which was my point; The station commander refused to launch fighters for the same reason. If they had launched more than vader's personal squadron, the Death Star would not have been destroyed.

[Kumo]

Which was my point; The station commander refused to launch fighters for the same reason. If they had launched more than vader's personal squadron, the Death Star would not have been destroyed.

Actually it probably would have anyway or the plot would have died :smalltongue:

EDIT: i just realized i accidently put a furious face in the post before my last XD

[golentan]

On the topic of the deathstar and the hidden rebel base:

http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg0109.jpg

The sheer number of things that are wrong with the death star could fill a book. Several books. Starting with Chapter 1: Economies of Scale, and ending with Chapter 437: Laser Light Show?

Some of my personal favorites include "Bonds vs. Bondage: How to Win Star Wars," "Deflectors Debunked," "The Baffling Absence of Baffles," "Planar Shockwaves: A retrospective" and, my all time favorite: "Totalitarians and Unions: How the Empire Sabotaged Itself."

[Kumo]

On the topic of the deathstar and the hidden rebel base:

http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg0109.jpg

The rebels existed way before the death star was finished.

[quote]The sheer number of things that are wrong with the death star could fill a book. Several books. Starting with Chapter 1: Economies of Scale, and ending with Chapter 437: Laser Light Show?Could you explain please?


Some of my personal favorites include "Bonds vs. Bondage: How to Win Star Wars," "Deflectors Debunked," "The Baffling Absence of Baffles," "Planar Shockwaves: A retrospective" and, my all time favorite: "Totalitarians and Unions: How the Empire Sabotaged Itself."

You forgot the fact that when things on a ship or space station with artificial gravity blow up the people shouldn't move in relation to the ship itself.

But that's done in every sci fi ever so it's excuseable.

[Texas_Ben]

You forgot the fact that when things on a ship or space station with artificial gravity blow up the people shouldn't move in relation to the ship itself.


Why not? It's artificial gravity, that is, the "gravity" as generated by the ship pulls them towards the "floor" as determined by the orientation of the gravity. It won't affect inertia at all, which is what's going to be causing them to be moved by a blast or whatever. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying.

[Kumo]

Why not? It's artificial gravity, that is, the "gravity" as generated by the ship pulls them towards the "floor" as determined by the orientation of the gravity. It won't affect inertia at all, which is what's going to be causing them to be moved by a blast or whatever. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying.

Meh. it's not my arguement so i can't explain it that well, but it's something like this: in space, there's no gravity, so the artificial gravity is only able to pull you towards the object. When something hits the ship, the ship moves, but you don't change position in space. It's kind of like why there aren't hurricane force winds all the time on earth despite the fact that it's spinning at several thousand mph.

[GoC]

Could you explain please?
Heh. Why should he bother? You already know that Occam's Razor dictates that "lazy writing" is the best theory. If you throw Occam's Razor out then you can explain away literally anything.

[Tyrant]

Heh. Why should he bother? You already know that Occam's Razor dictates that "lazy writing" is the best theory. If you throw Occam's Razor out then you can explain away literally anything.
Is it really lazy writing when adhering to our modern understanding of the sciences was never meant to be a consideration or part of the point? I don't think scientific errors in fiction can be considered bad writing if it never made the slightest claim to being realistic.

[GoC]

Is it really lazy writing when adhering to our modern understanding of the sciences was never meant to be a consideration or part of the point? I don't think scientific errors in fiction can be considered bad writing if it never made the slightest claim to being realistic.
There is a disconnect between your response and my post that I am incapable of bridging. For instance the fact that "our modern understanding of the sciences" was never referred to in my post.

[Texas_Ben]

Meh. it's not my arguement so i can't explain it that well, but it's something like this: in space, there's no gravity, so the artificial gravity is only able to pull you towards the object. When something hits the ship, the ship moves, but you don't change position in space. It's kind of like why there aren't hurricane force winds all the time on earth despite the fact that it's spinning at several thousand mph.

Exactly; the ship moves relative to the surrounding space, while the crewperson standing on the deck remains stationary relative to surrounding space. However, this has the unfortunate result of the crewmember giving the appearance of moving relative to the interior of the ship.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/4ff2a924ac.jpg
It's kind of like if you have someone standing on a wagon, and suddenly you yank the wagon out from under them. The person won't move relative to the ground under them, while the wagon does, so the person moves relative to the wagon, and falls over. Same principle.

Unless you have inertial dampers or anything else which serves the same purpose, which many sci-fi settings do, there's no reason to believe that artificial gravity is going to make basic physics behave differently.

[Kumo]

Exactly; the ship moves relative to the surrounding space, while the crewperson standing on the deck remains stationary relative to surrounding space. However, this has the unfortunate result of the crewmember giving the appearance of moving relative to the interior of the ship.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/4ff2a924ac.jpg
It's kind of like if you have someone standing on a wagon, and suddenly you yank the wagon out from under them. The person won't move relative to the wagon under them, so the person moves relative to the ground, and falls over. Same principle.

Unless you have inertial dampers or anything else which serves the same purpose, which many sci-fi settings do, there's no reason to believe that artificial gravity is going to make basic physics behave differently.
fixed.

That's because the source of the gravity isn't the wagon, it's the ground BENEATH the wagon. If the wagon had been the thing generating gravity (please don't say all things generate gravity, you know what i mean) then he would've moved relative to the wagon, ie, slowing down when it slowed down and speeding up when it sped up.

In your example, the strongest pull on the person is the ground, so they will move according to how that particular ground moves. The wagon also does, but speeds up. The person is still being pulled by the ground, so they move down towards IT instead of the wagon.

[Tyrant]

There is a disconnect between your response and my post that I am incapable of bridging. For instance the fact that "our modern understanding of the sciences" was never referred to in my post.

In post 142, Kumosabe asked Golentan to explain his post which talked about problems with the death star that include laser light show as a problem. To me, that implies he believe there is a scientific problem with one or more of the Death Star's weapons. Your response in post 145 indicated that the problems could be chalked up to bad writing if you were to apply Occum's Razor. Among those problems was a potential issue with scientific inaccuracy. Added to that, you have brought up other "problems" in this thread that are best summed up as scientific inaccuracy. Together it's not much of a leap to assume that you are saying that the technical issues can be written off as lazy writing, which is what I was commenting on. I honestly don't see how that needed explaining.

[Tavar]

Best explanation I've heard is that the enemy fire interfere's with the Artificial gravity system, causing the shakes.

[Kumo]

If you throw Occam's Razor out then you can explain away literally anything.

I don't intend to.

[leafman]

fixed.

That's because the source of the gravity isn't the wagon, it's the ground BENEATH the wagon. If the wagon had been the thing generating gravity (please don't say all things generate gravity, you know what i mean) then he would've moved relative to the wagon, ie, slowing down when it slowed down and speeding up when it sped up.

In your example, the strongest pull on the person is the ground, so they will move according to how that particular ground moves. The wagon also does, but speeds up. The person is still being pulled by the ground, so they move down towards IT instead of the wagon.

I think a better example is an earthquake, people caught suddenly by an earthquake tend to stumble around and fall. The reason though, is the same as the wagon example. The surface you are standing on is moving in a perpendicular direction to gravity which is pulling you down to the surface. The result of ofcourse is that you lose your balance.

[Texas_Ben]

fixed.
That's because the source of the gravity isn't the wagon, it's the ground BENEATH the wagon. If the wagon had been the thing generating gravity (please don't say all things generate gravity, you know what i mean) then he would've moved relative to the wagon, ie, slowing down when it slowed down and speeding up when it sped up.

In your example, the strongest pull on the person is the ground, so they will move according to how that particular ground moves. The wagon also does, but speeds up. The person is still being pulled by the ground, so they move down towards IT instead of the wagon.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NO NO NO IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b5d4aacbb5.jpg

Anyways, when you have the ship suddenly accelerate in a random direction from a hit, there's no reason for that acceleration to transfer to the crewmember, because there is no force acting on them from that impact, at least not directly.

[golentan]

An explanation for some of the chapter titles, eh? Well, economies of scale should be obvious. Some easy number crunching raises serious issues, as illustrated in the strip I linked to.

Laser Light is a chapter dealing with, among other issues, the appearance of a visible beam in space travelling slowly enough to see (hence the chapter name), the intersection of 3 beams with a delay resulting in a single beam travelling in a separate direction entirely, the fact that the laser evidently causes a complete critical existence failure of its target rather than an expected melt-through, flash heating, and likely ignition of the atmosphere and crust, and assorted sundries.

Bonds Vs. Bondage demonstrates that a 5 credit bond offered by the Empire, even if purchased by only a hundredth of a percent of the galaxy's citizens, would pay for their entire military organization several hundred times over. Allowing effective, local, and strong gubernatorial control and preventing the need for the Tarkin Doctrine, thus sparing them a lot of bad publicity.

Deflector Shields Debunked questions the value of shielding from a realistic perspective, demonstrating that to possess effective shielding compared to weaponry in a space battle, you need to break thermodynamics, at which point there are further questions that need answers.

The Baffling Absence of Baffles points out a simple safety mechanism that would have rendered Luke's Trench run meaningless, and backs it up with evidence that by Return of the Jedi this system has been implemented. It also points out that tracking down an achilles heel that size on an object that size and complexity would take a significant fraction of the life of the universe if done by hand, and raises questions about why computers that good aren't being implemented in more ways if done automatically.

Planar Shockwaves is a clear case of "That should not happen" with the reasons why.

And Totalitarians and Unions discusses the canon reason for why the first death star took 20 years to construct when the second one (with radical redesigns) was nearing completion in a fraction of that. Namely: They put political prisoners (including rebel saboteurs) on the construction crew. Deliberately. And used a unionized contractor workforce for the rest. Between riots, sabotage; and yes: union negotiations the work slowed to a crawl until Vader had enough and ordered them shot shortly before the films (relatively). I don't know about you, but I have trouble envisioning a totalitarian regime that lets labour disputes interfere with their arms program.

[Kumo]

An explanation for some of the chapter titles, eh? Well, economies of scale should be obvious. Some easy number crunching raises serious issues, as illustrated in the strip I linked to.Considering the size of the empire, it's iron fist policy and it's apparent economic stagnation on many worlds, it's not that surprising.


Laser Light is a chapter dealing with, among other issues, the appearance of a visible beam in space travelling slowly enough to see (hence the chapter name), the intersection of 3 beams with a delay resulting in a single beam travelling in a separate direction entirely, the fact that the laser evidently causes a complete critical existence failure of its target rather than an expected melt-through, flash heating, and likely ignition of the atmosphere and crust, and assorted sundries.Technically it was five beams that intersected a singular beam which then took a moment to power through it, THEN it hit the core, leading to an explosion which didn't look like it should have due to special effects budgets being spent everywhere else. =P


Bonds Vs. Bondage demonstrates that a 5 credit bond offered by the Empire, even if purchased by only a hundredth of a percent of the galaxy's citizens, would pay for their entire military organization several hundred times over. Allowing effective, local, and strong gubernatorial control and preventing the need for the Tarkin Doctrine, thus sparing them a lot of bad publicity.Putting aside for the moment the sheer amount of money needed just to feed that many people, forget housing, water, the cost of weaponry, the greed of the emperor himself...

DEATH STAR.


Deflector Shields Debunked questions the value of shielding from a realistic perspective, demonstrating that to possess effective shielding compared to weaponry in a space battle, you need to break thermodynamics, at which point there are further questions that need answers.

In Physics of the Impossible it states that deflector shields (star trek style) are possible from a physics standpoint (i don't remember the exact details but it's something to do with interwoven layers) but impossible due to technological levels of the modern day.


The Baffling Absence of Baffles points out a simple safety mechanism that would have rendered Luke's Trench run meaningless, and backs it up with evidence that by Return of the Jedi this system has been implemented. It also points out that tracking down an achilles heel that size on an object that size and complexity would take a significant fraction of the life of the universe if done by hand, and raises questions about why computers that good aren't being implemented in more ways if done automatically.You do know droids are basically walking computers with the ability to speak, right?

Trouble with computers like that is, the other guy has them too.


Planar Shockwaves is a clear case of "That should not happen" with the reasons why.Say what?


And Totalitarians and Unions discusses the canon reason for why the first death star took 20 years to construct when the second one (with radical redesigns) was nearing completion in a fraction of that. Namely: They put political prisoners (including rebel saboteurs) on the construction crew. Deliberately. And used a unionized contractor workforce for the rest. Between riots, sabotage; and yes: union negotiations the work slowed to a crawl until Vader had enough and ordered them shot shortly before the films (relatively). I don't know about you, but I have trouble envisioning a totalitarian regime that lets labour disputes interfere with their arms program.
You JUST FINISHED SAYING that vader SHOT them.

The second death star was not only rushed in construction - which is evidenced in the movie - but only a fraction of it was finished by the rebel attack, mainly the part needed to activate the guns.

I think you're also overlooking the fact that Vader was a powerful force user, not just a muscle man. Force users can influence the minds of entire battles - or in this case a workforce - to inspire greater morale, skill and competence in the people there, while before the Death Star was completed he and the emperor spent more time consolidating their power in various systems than overseeing construction themselves.

It's one reason why the imperial fleet was taken down so easily once the emperor died - he had been using the minds of imperial soldiers so much that they had pretty much lost their competence by the time that battle came around, then the emperor's influence died and... well, kablooey.

Also, I'd be willing to bet good money a lot of experimentation was done in the death star's - a planet killing station, basically, which as far as i know had never been done before - design and plans were modified as they occured.

[Kumo]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NO NO NO IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY

[img]http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b5d4aacbb5.jpg[img]

Anyways, when you have the ship suddenly accelerate in a random direction from a hit, there's no reason for that acceleration to transfer to the crewmember, because there is no force acting on them from that impact, at least not directly.

You seem to be ignoring air resistance =/

[Oslecamo]

I think you're also overlooking the fact that Vader was a powerful force user, not just a muscle man. Force users can influence the minds of entire battles - or in this case a workforce - to inspire greater morale, skill and competence in the people there, while before the Death Star was completed he and the emperor spent more time consolidating their power in various systems than overseeing construction themselves.


It's one reason why the imperial fleet was taken down so easily once the emperor died - he had been using the minds of imperial soldiers so much that they had pretty much lost their competence by the time that battle came around, then the emperor's influence died and... well, kablooey.


This is the original movies we're talking. All the "Force can do anything and everything!" thingy just apeared later as the fluff kept expanding and jedi/sith went from dudes with laser swords and minor tricks to star-busting deities.

However for all we know the emperor was pretty old and weakened in the last movie, old and weak enough to let himself be grabbed and thrown to his death. Couldn't even do a force jump the poor old man.

Plus, the stormtroopers got defeated by the teddy bears before the emperor bited it.:smallamused:

[Kumo]

This is the original movies we're talking. All the "Force can do anything and everything!" thingy just apeared later as the fluff kept expanding and jedi/sith went from dudes with laser swords and minor tricks to star-busting deities.

However for all we know the emperor was pretty old and weakened in the last movie, old and weak enough to let himself be grabbed and thrown to his death. Couldn't even do a force jump the poor old man.

Plus, the stormtroopers got defeated by the teddy bears before the emperor bited it.:smallamused:I was explaining the reasoning for cause and effect via canon, not why they decided the special effects cost weren't worth it :smalltongue:

To do a 'jump' requires a surface to jump off of. The best the old man could do once he was falling was catch himself with the force, which still wouldn't stop him entirely, just slow him down a bit. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

And i was referring to the SPACE battle. That's why i said 'imperial fleet' :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

Also, the jedi were from the beginning able to do things that were pretty much godlike, we just didn't see much opportunity for it until we got to Yoda - the guy who could send people on illusory quests and lift a ship out of a swamp.

As for Obi-Wan being uber strong, he was trying to keep hidden, remember: we saw him basically scream loud enough to frighten off sand people in the voice of a Krayt Dragon, and become a ghost. the rest of the time all he had to do was walk around undetected in a massive space station and BECOME A GHOST.

[Texas_Ben]

You seem to be ignoring air resistance =/

What does air resistance have to do with anything?
...
...
...
You best be trollin'

[Kumo]

What does air resistance have to do with anything?The ships all have their own contained atmospheres, right? The shockwave shifts the ship forward, yes, but...

screw it, i'm not gonna be able to describe it properly anyway.


You best be trollin'

You mean 'must' be trollin' and no, i'm not.

EDIT: Well, not on purpose.

[Texas_Ben]

The ships all have their own contained atmospheres, right? The shockwave shifts the ship forward, yes, but...


Just so you know, this is what happened when I read this post (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo53Krs7N2k)

[Kumo]

Just so you know, this is what happened when I read this post (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo53Krs7N2k)

Oh shut up, i stopped -_-

[golentan]

Considering the size of the empire, it's iron fist policy and it's apparent economic stagnation on many worlds, it's not that surprising.

You misapprehend me. I meant economies of scale for the DEATH STAR itself, not the empire. Surface Area to volume, power output, weapon loading capacity.


Technically it was five beams that intersected a singular beam which then took a moment to power through it, THEN it hit the core, leading to an explosion which didn't look like it should have due to special effects budgets being spent everywhere else. =P

Most of the problems in that statement still stand.


Putting aside for the moment the sheer amount of money needed just to feed that many people, forget housing, water, the cost of weaponry, the greed of the emperor himself...

DEATH STAR.

But the point is that with a miniscule bond program the emperor could build a fleet of deathstars. Governed population: 100. Quadrillion. A hundred million billions. The empire had armed forces in the low trillions. About one percent of 0.1 percent of the population worked for them. By widening their admission requirements for the Imperial Army they would have been able to field effective force where necessary. By a 5 credit bond purchased by a tenth of a percent of the population, the empire would have raised funds (going by the sources available) for 25 million additional Imperial II star destroyers: More than they had tie fighters. I don't know how many star destroyers are equivalent to a Death Star, but I'm guessing he could have had more of them to play with.


In Physics of the Impossible it states that deflector shields (star trek style) are possible from a physics standpoint (i don't remember the exact details but it's something to do with interwoven layers) but impossible due to technological levels of the modern day.

Deflector shields require the exertion of force equal or greater to than an incoming attack across the cross section of the attack. For every cross section you wish to cover. Yes, you can make them, but you can't make them practical. Because your shield should lose every time to incoming attacks if you have technical parity with the enemy (spending thousands of times the energy to shield versus the energy required to successfully attack).


You do know droids are basically walking computers with the ability to speak, right?

Trouble with computers like that is, the other guy has them too.

And the droids consistently fail to deliver that level of efficacy in problem solving and analysis, with the possible exception of R2-D2.


Say what?

Suffice to say that without some very specific engineering it should be a roughly homologous cloud of debris, no external shockwave (shockwaves occur only in conductive media, same reason you shouldn't have spaceships bank into a turn.


You JUST FINISHED SAYING that vader SHOT them.

The second death star was not only rushed in construction - which is evidenced in the movie - but only a fraction of it was finished by the rebel attack, mainly the part needed to activate the guns.

After allowing the process to be delayed more than a decade. They let the negotiations go for a decade before they finally shot people and brought in a new work force. The issue isn't that they resolved it by shooting, it's confusing that they allowed the issue to form and then took so long to use shooting to resolve it. It's bizarre.

[Texas_Ben]

Deflector shields require the exertion of force equal or greater to than an incoming attack across the cross section of the attack. For every cross section you wish to cover. Yes, you can make them, but you can't make them practical. Because your shield should lose every time to incoming attacks if you have technical parity with the enemy (spending thousands of times the energy to shield versus the energy required to successfully attack).

I always rather thought that deflectors works by, well, deflecting. That way you don't need to stop an attack outright, just change it's path enough so that it bounces away harmlessly. Although that's just me justifying it to myself, since in the films we see the blaster bolts explode when they hit the deflector shield. There's probably some technobabble voodoo out there to explain it away. At any rate, shields don't seem to be that big a deal in Star Wars, as opposed to trek where the whole battle consists of SHIELDS AT X PERCENT CAPTAIN! Unshielded ships in SW are at least practical.

[Kumo]

You misapprehend me. I meant economies of scale for the DEATH STAR itself, not the empire. Surface Area to volume, power output, weapon loading capacity.

And now you know why there weren't a million star destroyers.


Most of the problems in that statement still stand.

I was too indirect, it seems. It's sort of like a magnifying glass on a bunch of ants: you focus various sunbeams onto one point, and the ants die a horrible fiery death while you cackle as you start working out your pattern as the Ant Serial Killer. MUHAHAHAHA...

I had a completely different idea but this one sounded less dependent on the solidity of beams of light in that galaxy.


But the point is that with a miniscule bond program the emperor could build a fleet of deathstars. Governed population: 100. Quadrillion. A hundred million billions. The empire had armed forces in the low trillions. About one percent of 0.1 percent of the population worked for them. By widening their admission requirements for the Imperial Army they would have been able to field effective force where necessary. By a 5 credit bond purchased by a tenth of a percent of the population, the empire would have raised funds (going by the sources available) for 25 million additional Imperial II star destroyers: More than they had tie fighters. I don't know how many star destroyers are equivalent to a Death Star, but I'm guessing he could have had more of them to play with.

Yes, if the fleet was all the empire spent their money on, and if they could find enough people to man all those ships, which they very clearly did not. If they had a compliment of only several thousand fighters on a space station the size of a MOON, there's a pretty good chance all ships in the empire were operating skeletally. Granted, most of their soldiers were clones, but they only had so many [cloning tubes] (not sure if that's what they're called) at Kamino and can only grow so many at a time, and clones with accelerated growth die off twice as fast as normal soldiers. However many volunteers they got it wouldn't be enough, and as far as i know the empire never initiated a draft. Correct me on this if i'm wrong.

And even then there's still money spent on domestic things, weapons research, maintenance... if there's one thing i've learned from strategy games (stop laughing! :smallmad: ) it's that armies require upkeep when they get big.


Deflector shields require the exertion of force equal or greater to than an incoming attack across the cross section of the attack. For every cross section you wish to cover. Yes, you can make them, but you can't make them practical. Because your shield should lose every time to incoming attacks if you have technical parity with the enemy (spending thousands of times the energy to shield versus the energy required to successfully attack).

I think the example given in the book operated in the same manner as a trampoline but on a larger scale.

And it's not like the shields were perfect, they went down relatively easy.


And the droids consistently fail to deliver that level of efficacy in problem solving and analysis, with the possible exception of R2-D2.

You missed the point. They're essentially sentient machines, with the difference being that they have no choice but to obey their programming. That takes a LOT of processing power. And the other point still stands.


Suffice to say that without some very specific engineering it should be a roughly homologous cloud of debris, no external shockwave (shockwaves occur only in conductive media, same reason you shouldn't have spaceships bank into a turn.

In most of those ships, there were glass panes forward, to the left, right, and up from the cockpit. You could see best out of the 'up' one. THAT'S why they banked their turns - so they could see where they were going.

That and the one time they actually followed those physics it was the most boring chase scene in the history of chase scenes.


After allowing the process to be delayed more than a decade. They let the negotiations go for a decade before they finally shot people and brought in a new work force. The issue isn't that they resolved it by shooting, it's confusing that they allowed the issue to form and then took so long to use shooting to resolve it. It's bizarre.

That can be attributed to stupidity, boredom, or even that there was more efficiency than there would have been up until that point, where the emperor grew impatient enough to come himself.

[Texas_Ben]

If they had a compliment of only several thousand fighters on a space station the size of a MOON, there's a pretty good chance all ships in the empire were operating skeletally.

The United States Airforce, which I'm assuming probably fields the most fighters of anyone, only has about 2,500 fighter craft. Which means that it isn't a ridiculous assumption to say that, in the entire world, there are about 10,000 fighter craft in service. And that's for a whole planet. A planet with a radius of 6,378.1 km. The first death star had a fighter complement of 9,000, and it had a radius of 80 km. An object which is roughly 1% the size of earth carrying close to the total number of fighters currently serving on said planet is hardly what I'd call 'skeletal'.

[warty goblin]

The United States Airforce, which I'm assuming probably fields the most fighters of anyone, only has about 2,500 fighter craft. Which means that it isn't a ridiculous assumption to say that, in the entire world, there are about 10,000 fighter craft in service. And that's for a whole planet. A planet with a radius of 6,378.1 km. The first death star had a fighter complement of 9,000, and it had a radius of 80 km. An object which is roughly 1% the size of earth carrying close to the total number of fighters currently serving on said planet is hardly what I'd call 'skeletal'.

That's a valid argument, but I don't think it applies particularly well to the Death Star. After all the entirety of the Death Star is a military facility, and most of the Earth is not. Secondly although the Death Star is much smaller than Earth, much, much more of its volume is usable. Although I really don't have the numbers available, it would hardly surprise me if the DS's total volume was many thousands of times that of all currently extant military facilities on Earth.

[Kumo]

The United States Airforce, which I'm assuming probably fields the most fighters of anyone, only has about 2,500 fighter craft. Which means that it isn't a ridiculous assumption to say that, in the entire world, there are about 10,000 fighter craft in service. And that's for a whole planet. A planet with a radius of 6,378.1 km. The first death star had a fighter complement of 9,000, and it had a radius of 80 km. An object which is roughly 1% the size of earth carrying close to the total number of fighters currently serving on said planet is hardly what I'd call 'skeletal'.

I was actually referring to the other ships in the galaxy when i said 'skeletal'.

Less important: the radius of a planet doesn't determine how many fighters can fit on it, it's surface area that isn't mountains, cliffs and such does.

[Lord of the Helms]

The United States Airforce, which I'm assuming probably fields the most fighters of anyone, only has about 2,500 fighter craft. Which means that it isn't a ridiculous assumption to say that, in the entire world, there are about 10,000 fighter craft in service. And that's for a whole planet. A planet with a radius of 6,378.1 km. The first death star had a fighter complement of 9,000, and it had a radius of 80 km. An object which is roughly 1% the size of earth carrying close to the total number of fighters currently serving on said planet is hardly what I'd call 'skeletal'.


That's going for peacetime numbers. For comparison, in World War Two the US alone produced close to 100.000 fighter aircraft alone, the Soviet Union a similar number of military planes altogether. Both Germany and the RAF fielded tens of thousands of aircraft. Besides, the fighters don't have to be produced on the Death Star, they only really need space for keeping and maintenance, and sufficient landing/takeoff bays. If you really want to compare it to earthly examples, try and calculate how surface and volume of, say, a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier compares to the Death Star.

[Texas_Ben]

I was actually referring to the other ships in the galaxy when i said 'skeletal'.

I realize that, but what you said was basically judging by the Death Star's fighter complement (9000 for a station the size of a small moon), we could extrapolate that the rest of the fleet is undermanned; it seemed like you were saying that 9000 isn't a lot. I was just trying to put it into perspective a bit; The Death Star, in addition to it's superlaser, also carries military personell and material comparable to Terra today in quantity. Considering it is less than 1% of the size of earth, I'd hardly call it undermanned. And considering the sheer scale of the Empire and the fact that they're not above cloning people, I'm reluctant to assume that the rest of their ships are undermanned.

A much bigger problem, one which basically lost them the war, was their outdated tactical doctrine which more or less ignored fighters, while treating their own fighters as expendable. Most of the rebel fleet consisted of imperial vessels captured in raids.

[Kumo]

I realize that, but what you said was basically judging by the Death Star's fighter complement (9000 for a station the size of a small moon), we could extrapolate that the rest of the fleet is undermanned; it seemed like you were saying that 9000 isn't a lot. I was just trying to put it into perspective a bit; The Death Star, in addition to it's superlaser, also carries military personell and material comparable to Terra today in quantity. Considering it is less than 1% of the size of earth, I'd hardly call it undermanned. And considering the sheer scale of the Empire and the fact that they're not above cloning people, I'm reluctant to assume that the rest of their ships are undermanned.

It's the size of a MOON, and as mentioned before, your fighter numbers were peacetime. Also, only a small portion of the earth is used for the manufacture, storage and launch of ships - even taking into account that not all of it's surface is usable. The Death Star, however, was entirely military. 9000 is small for a huge battle station that is built entirely for military purposes.

Also, the earth can only use it's surface while the Death Star could go very deep towards it's core.


A much bigger problem, one which basically lost them the war, was their outdated tactical doctrine which more or less ignored fighters, while treating their own fighters as expendable. Most of the rebel fleet consisted of imperial vessels captured in raids.

Technically the war didn't end at Endor... that was more of the turning point, where the empire went on the defensive instead of the rebels.

i thought what lost them the war was that they vastly underestimated the Rebels at pretty much every conceivable turn from Day 1 until the last few battles, at which point it was too late to account for variables like the Ewoks, Vader's betrayal and the emperor dieing.

But we've gone off topic. Lightsabers, Xenomorphs. Discuss while i look up the Xenomorphs so i have a clue what i'm talking about besides that which i have gleaned from conversations and this one game that used xenomorph rip-offs as it's main protagonist.

[Texas_Ben]

It's the size of a MOON, and as mentioned before, your fighter numbers were peacetime. Also, only a small portion of the earth is used for the manufacture, storage and launch of ships - even taking into account that not all of it's surface is usable. The Death Star, however, was entirely military. 9000 is small for a huge battle station that is built entirely for military purposes.
A small moon. The first death star had a radius of only 80km. Luna's is 1,738.14km. That's 4%. If we compare volumes, the Death Star has .00122% of the volume of the moon. Most of the Death Star's interior was occupied by the massive infrastructure required to power and maintain the superlaser. 9000 would be small if it was a moon-sized carrier base, but it wasn't. It was a (extremely small) moon-sized weapons platform with a planet-sized fighter complement. The issue isn't how militarized it is or whatever; The fact of the matter is that you have enough fighters to provide effective support for an entire planet defending an object 0.00019% as big (comparing to the earth, not the moon this time). It works out to having significantly more fighters per km of surface area (which is what matters, since that is what the fighters are defending) than Earth.

Just for fun, though, let's crunch some numbers. The amount of Earth's surface covered by land is 148,940,000 sq. km. The volume of the first death star is 2,145,000 cu. km. Most of the interior of the Death Star is devoted to the superlaser and the facilities needed to power it, so most of the usual space is going to be in the outer shell.

At any rate, wikipedia tells me that there are currently 28,382 fighter aircraft operational in the world today. Dividing the number of craft available by the total surface area tells us that the Death Star has 0.111 fighters for every sq. km of space the fighters need to defend, while earth has 0.0000556 for the same. That means that the Death Star is significantly better-defended than our planet is.

As to the "wartime" numbers presented earlier--You can't use numbers from WWII. War has changed a lot since then... fighters are much more advanced and much less expendable, and most importantly, we are not on a total war footing. Neither is the empire on a total war footing. The Empire is, I imagine, much in the same state we are currently where to most citizens there is some vague idea of there being a war on, but it doesn't affect their lives too much. At any rate, I can't think of any evidence to indicate that the empire is operating in "total war" mode.

Out of curiosity, what would you view as an "acceptable" complement of fighters for such a station?



Technically the war didn't end at Endor... that was more of the turning point, where the empire went on the defensive instead of the rebels.

They never would have reached Endor is imperial tactical doctrine had been adequate from the start. Where do you think they got all those Nebulon-B frigates and other stuff from? Most of the non mon-cal ships from? Seized in fighter raids by the rebels because imperial tactical ignores fighters.

[warty goblin]

As to the "wartime" numbers presented earlier--You can't use numbers from WWII. War has changed a lot since then... fighters are much more advanced and much less expendable, and most importantly, we are not on a total war footing. Neither is the empire on a total war footing. The Empire is, I imagine, much in the same state we are currently where to most citizens there is some vague idea of there being a war on, but it doesn't affect their lives too much. At any rate, I can't think of any evidence to indicate that the empire is operating in "total war" mode.

Your analysis is sound, you have persuaded me.

However Star Wars fighters and fighter tactics are much more comparable to WWII fighters than to modern ones. Maybe it's different in the EU, but at least in the movies all the fighter combat I saw was visual range and conducted with the futuristic equivalent of of machine guns and cannon. There wasn't much in the way of stealth (a rare and no doubt inadvertent case of Star Wars maybe getting the science right), long range missile fire, or counter measures.

[Texas_Ben]

However Star Wars fighters and fighter tactics are much more comparable to WWII fighters than to modern ones. Maybe it's different in the EU, but at least in the movies all the fighter combat I saw was visual range and conducted with the futuristic equivalent of of machine guns and cannon. There wasn't much in the way of stealth (a rare and no doubt inadvertent case of Star Wars maybe getting the science right), long range missile fire, or counter measures.

Oh no, I'm not disputing that their tactics seem to be right out of a WWII movie, just that the size of fighter battles is going to be smaller than in WWII because of the nature of the conflict-- WWII had multiple fully industrialized powers duking it out, and devoting their whole industrial might to the endeavor, while in Star Wars we have an insurgency and a galaxy-spanning empire engaged in counterinsurgency operations, but otherwise operating normally.

[Kumo]

A small moon.Good point.


The first death star had a radius of only 80km. Luna's is 1,738.14km. That's 4%. If we compare volumes, the Death Star has .00122% of the volume of the moon. Most of the Death Star's interior was occupied by the massive infrastructure required to power and maintain the superlaser. 9000 would be small if it was a moon-sized carrier base, but it wasn't. It was a (extremely small) moon-sized weapons platform with a planet-sized fighter complement. The issue isn't how militarized it is or whatever; The fact of the matter is that you have enough fighters to provide effective support for an entire planet defending an object 0.00019% as big (comparing to the earth, not the moon this time). It works out to having significantly more fighters per km of surface area (which is what matters, since that is what the fighters are defending) than Earth.I wasn't using surface area as a defending number, i was using it to show the amount of avaiable room for making ships. In the death star's case that would be inner AND outer, while in a modern day fighter's case it would be cities, towns and ships.

Didn't you say at one point that a small portion of the Death Star wasn't being used for anything at all (proportionally small. it was still massive.)


Just for fun, though, let's crunch some numbers. The amount of Earth's surface covered by land is 148,940,000 sq. km. The volume of the first death star is 2,145,000 cu. km. Most of the interior of the Death Star is devoted to the superlaser and the facilities needed to power it, so most of the usual space is going to be in the outer shell.

At any rate, wikipedia tells me that there are currently 28,382 fighter aircraft operational in the world today. Dividing the number of craft available by the total surface area tells us that the Death Star has 0.111 fighters for every sq. km of space the fighters need to defend, while earth has 0.0000556 for the same. That means that the Death Star is significantly better-defended than our planet is.

Not really. there's just a lot less to defend.

Yeah, i know that's just a technicality.


As to the "wartime" numbers presented earlier--You can't use numbers from WWII. War has changed a lot since then... fighters are much more advanced and much less expendable, and most importantly, we are not on a total war footing. Neither is the empire on a total war footing. The Empire is, I imagine, much in the same state we are currently where to most citizens there is some vague idea of there being a war on, but it doesn't affect their lives too much. At any rate, I can't think of any evidence to indicate that the empire is operating in "total war" mode.

Much less expendable FOR US, in THIS time period. Tie fighters seem to be tiny metal frames - mostly solar panel - held together by duct tape, chewing gum and prayers mass produced with no hyperdrive for the conveience of a guy who looks like he was genetically spliced with a lizard and can shoot lightning


Out of curiosity, what would you view as an "acceptable" complement of fighters for such a station?

"Acceptable" would be some docked capital ships with their own compliment of fighters but obviously that isn't viable. So... 20,000 would be a good number, 11,000 would be 'acceptable'.

[Texas_Ben]

"Acceptable" would be some docked capital ships with their own compliment of fighters but obviously that isn't viable. So... 20,000 would be a good number, 11,000 would be 'acceptable'.
The second death star could, apparently, dock 16 capital ships. A single Imperial Star Destroyer carries 72 fighters, for a total compliment of 1152 fighters. Meaning that the Death Star has about 9 times the number of fighters you recommend.

You still haven't explained why, by any stretch of the imagination, 9000 fighters is insufficient for the task of defending a station the size of the Death Star.

[Kumo]

The second death star could, apparently, dock 16 capital ships. A single Imperial Star Destroyer carries 72 fighters, for a total compliment of 1152 fighters. Meaning that the Death Star has about 9 times the number of fighters you recommend. The main part of that was the capital ships themselves :smalltongue:


You still haven't explained why, by any stretch of the imagination, 9000 fighters is insufficient for the task of defending a station the size of the Death Star.EXACTLY.

Also, it's an OFFENSIVE weapons platform. It would need fighters for defending it from attacks AND launching attacks of it's own.


But we've gone off topic. Lightsabers, Xenomorphs. Discuss while i look up the Xenomorphs so i have a clue what i'm talking about besides that which i have gleaned from conversations and this one game that used xenomorph rip-offs as it's main protagonist.

[Texas_Ben]

Also, it's an OFFENSIVE weapons platform. It would need fighters for defending it from attacks AND launching attacks of it's own.

The Empire doesn't use fighters offensively. Again, the Death Star isn't a carrier base, it's a vehicle for carting around the superlaser. Everything else is centered around making sure that it can get to the target and blow it up.

[Kumo]

The Empire doesn't use fighters offensively.

Tie fighters were occasionally used offensively - though i couldn't name any particular instances without going out of the movies, unless you count the tie bombers in the asteroid belt.


Again, the Death Star isn't a carrier base, it's a vehicle for carting around the superlaser. Everything else is centered around making sure that it can get to the target and blow it up.You make a valid point - though i would like to point out that that particular scenario -going to a target to blow it to bits and have it's other crap defend it long enough to get there- is the only one the death star was ever used for, partly (or rather, entirely) because it was destroyed after mission one.

Now can we PLEASE go back to Xenomorphs, or just let this thread die?

[golentan]

Okay, Ben, could you PLEASE spoiler your big diagram. It's getting hard to read the thread.

Edit: And new page post makes it largely superfluous. I feel silly.

[IncarnumJunkie]

Tie fighters were occasionally used offensively - though i couldn't name any particular instances without going out of the movies, unless you count the tie bombers in the asteroid belt.

You make a valid point - though i would like to point out that that particular scenario -going to a target to blow it to bits and have it's other crap defend it long enough to get there- is the only one the death star was ever used for, partly (or rather, entirely) because it was destroyed after mission one.

Now can we PLEASE go back to Xenomorphs, or just let this thread die?

Please...

all I was asking as to whether a Lightsaber was a feasible weapon against a xenomorph and whether or not you would get melted if you used one

[Texas_Ben]

Okay, Ben, could you PLEASE spoiler your big diagram. It's getting hard to read the thread.


I'm sorry. My moniter has a really really high resolution so I didn't realize it was making people scroll horozontally.

[Kumo]

Please...

all I was asking as to whether a Lightsaber was a feasible weapon against a xenomorph and whether or not you would get melted if you used one

The lightsaber would cauterize the wound instantly, and xenomorphs are naturally (no pun intended) either resistant or immune to their own blood, but Xenomorph blood is pressurized inside their bodies so it's possible it would only work for a moment before it forced it's way out.