[3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

[Myou]

My player and I are thinking about making potions require a move action to use, which can be combined with retrieving the item from wherever you carry it.
Is this proposed houserule vulnerable to abuse, or otherwise a bad idea?

[Eldariel]

My player and I are thinking about making potions require a move action to use, which can be combined with retrieving the item from wherever you carry it.
Is this proposed houserule vulnerable to abuse, or otherwise a bad idea?

Well, Move Actions normally don't have combat use; being able to buff through Move Actions with Potions actually makes them ironically better than the actual spells for that purpose... So...well, it's a hairy matter.

[Tinydwarfman]

Well, Move Actions normally don't have combat use; being able to buff through Move Actions with Potions actually makes them ironically better than the actual spells for that purpose... So...well, it's a hairy matter.

It also makes less players forced into a being a healbot, and actually buy some potions.

[the humanity]

I don't see it getting too much abuse as long as you can't drink multiples in one round.

[senrath]

I'd say give it a shot, and if it turns out to be abusable, put some restrictions on it (or return to RAW).

[Eldariel]

It also makes less players forced into a being a healbot, and actually buy some potions.

It works fine for healing potions; the issue is every other damn type of Potion ever, especially ones used for buffing. Suddenly it's advantageous to use your Move Action to buff instead of ever casting buff spells via. swift or standard actions, and you generally get potions even as a caster capable of casting the same spells.

Besides, the Healbot-"issue" is mostly negated by Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor.

[Myou]

I rather thought that the cost of potions would offset the added utility for buffs. Not the case?
As things stand potions just don't seem effective, since it's basically a full round action and up to two attacks of opportunity to use one, and all you get is the effect of a low level spell that would have been a standard action to cast.

[Tinydwarfman]

It works fine for healing potions; the issue is every other damn type of Potion ever, especially ones used for buffing. Suddenly it's advantageous to use your Move Action to buff instead of ever casting buff spells via. swift or standard actions, and you generally get potions even as a caster capable of casting the same spells.

Besides, the Healbot-"issue" is mostly negated by Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor.

Meh, the potion will have a really low CL, and will still be way too expensive. A potion still costs double what a scroll does, so I don't think it will matter too much. Make it only for healing if you want though.

I know there is no issue, but many groups still force a player into playing a healer, and this will be an obvious counter to that.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, Potions are a bit weak, and in that sense, the cost might indeed balance it out. Just, the issue is that at the present, there's no way to effectively act offensively or defensively with your move action. You can reposition yourself and be in a more optimal position on the battlefield, but you can't take an actual combat action with the move action (outside very few exceptions...like, Dark Knowledge and...that's about it). With this, you could. As such, I'd be wary; though I can't say for sure if it'd have a negative or a positive impact upon the game having never tried it myself. Just, on a general level, making move actions do something else than...well, move, never seems to work out that well.


Meh, the potion will have a really low CL, and will still be way too expensive. A potion still costs double what a scroll does, so I don't think it will matter too much. Make it only for healing if you want though.

I know there is no issue, but many groups still force a player into playing a healer, and this will be an obvious counter to that.

I don't think this really solves it though, due to the aforementioned "cost"-issue; it's just not really sustainable to heal with Potions in the long run. Having the option of emergency healing with potions might (or might not, due to how little they heal) be beneficial, but who knows.

[ericgrau]

It is a major power boost. In terms of action economy it's free power. It will also discourage players from moving around, which will suck for melee compared to others. Even so, the game will likely still be playable with this boost. Up to you.

[Myou]

Oh well, I don't want another power boost, especially one that helps casters more than melee. I guess it's a nice idea but not a practical one. Thanks all.

[cZak]

I allow a 'masterwork potion belt' (I picture it as a strap diagonally across the chest) with four slots, which allows the character to draw and drink a potion as a move action. Still provokes AoO.

Players have never abused it, but I can see how it could be. Most times its used in combat for a quick heal. But it does allow less reliance on others for emergent healing.

[PinkysBrain]

Personally I'd make it a swift action.

[Runestar]

If you want to give the enemy the ability to make 2 AoOs against you in 1 round, be my guest. :smallbiggrin:

Now, if activating a healing belt were a move action...:smallcool:

[Tinydwarfman]

Oh well, I don't want another power boost, especially one that helps casters more than melee. I guess it's a nice idea but not a practical one. Thanks all.

Wait, you hear one person say it's a power boost for casters and call it off? :smallconfused:
How is it more of a boost to casters anyway?

[ericgrau]

I didn't say casters really, I said people who don't need their move action to move, i.e. not melee. From there it must have been obvious. Even archers like their move actions for full attacks leaving, well, nobody else.

Changing it to a swift action would even things up a bit. Especially since casters like to use swifts for quicken spells and melee depends on items to have swift actions at all. It's still basically free power in terms of action economy, as you still get your full 5 rounds (or however long it is) of combat to do other things. I mean potions aren't that expensive, especially later on.

[Tinydwarfman]

I didn't say casters really, I said people who don't need their move action to move, i.e. not melee. From there it must have been obvious. Even archers like their move actions for full attacks leaving, well, nobody else.

Changing it to a swift action would even things up a bit. Especially since casters like to use swifts for quicken spells and melee depends on items to have swift actions at all. It's still basically free power in terms of action economy, as you still get your full 5 rounds (or however long it is) of combat to do other things. I mean potions aren't that expensive, especially later on.

Yes, but generally, Melee NEEDS the healing, and move action lets them attack and still heal. Swift would be better, but that completely ruins the realism for me. Chugging it in 3 seconds is bad enough.

[ericgrau]

But for the casters it's a free +2 to their spell save DCs at low levels. At high levels it's a free invisibility every round; even if they broke the last round invisibility by casting. They pay nothing for it. Melee pays in either lost full attacks or lost charges. And I think both melee and casters can be in danger of dying.

I like how that assumption on danger always switches depending on the discussion topic. Like whenever talking about melee defense people assume the monsters avoid the melee entirely and go after the casters (as if the melee could care less about protecting anyone but himself). Whenever talking about casters people say they have a million protection spells so they never get hit.

[PinkysBrain]

How about putting a plunger and needle on the potion vial? Swift action for intravenous application, a vial is no bigger than ammo which is free to grab and jabbing it into your arm shouldn't be too far from a swift action.

Maybe add 1d4 damage for balance.

[PinkysBrain]

Like whenever talking about melee defense people assume the monsters avoid the melee entirely and go after the casters (as if the melee could care less about protecting anyone but himself). Whenever talking about casters people say they have a million protection spells so they never get hit.
The monsters vie with melee to see which can look more useless while the casters kill them :)

People like me don't talk about melee defense though ... I talk about melee offense. A monster should fight melee offense because it's a credible threat, not because it's a hitpoint wall which somehow should protect the caster. If the melee is not offense then yes, the monster should go for the caster even if he has a hard time hitting him. For the very simple reason that the melee is irrelevant.

[Tinydwarfman]

The monsters vie with melee to see which can look more useless while the casters kill them :)

People like me don't talk about melee defense though ... I talk about melee offense. A monster should fight melee offense because it's a credible threat, not because it's a hitpoint wall which somehow should protect the caster. If the melee is not offense then yes, the monster should go for the caster even if he has a hard time hitting him. For the very simple reason that the melee is irrelevant.

And, you know, the melee might be the only target. Fly. Goodbye =)

I do your point with the invisibility. At that high level though (for the potions not to be huge drain), wizard just casts greater invisibility and can actually move. It is a balance issue I haven't encountered because we just used healing potions. Strange. I don't think the party has ever actually gotten a buff potion for one reason or another...

[Fizban]

Yes, but generally, Melee NEEDS the healing, and move action lets them attack and still heal. Swift would be better, but that completely ruins the realism for me. Chugging it in 3 seconds is bad enough.

Chug what? It's 1oz of liquid, one swallow. The problem would be getting the stopper off faster than that. Now, when you put together the time to remove the stopper, raise it to your lips, and down the shot, then it starts taking some time, but it's because of the process not the "chugging". :smallannoyed:

I agree that potions generally suck for a standard action, but I also agree that they're too good for a swift action, and possibly too good for a move action. You could always make a feat I suppose.

[Tinydwarfman]

Chug what? It's 1oz of liquid, one swallow. The problem would be getting the stopper off faster than that. Now, when you put together the time to remove the stopper, raise it to your lips, and down the shot, then it starts taking some time, but it's because of the process not the "chugging". :smallannoyed:

I agree that potions generally suck for a standard action, but I also agree that they're too good for a swift action, and possibly too good for a move action. You could always make a feat I suppose.

I know, I was talking about getting it out mostly, how fast can you pull out a bottle of water, remove the cap and take a sip? I find it unrealistic, 'chugging' was just for emphasis to replace drinking.

[Runestar]

Sometimes when I go jogging, I see these people carrying sort of water pack on their back, with a tube that they can suck water out of as the need arises.

Couldn't adventurers invent something similar, so they can fight while sipping potions from medipacks strapped to various parts of their bodies?:smalltongue:

Anyways, complete mage has this feat which lets you drink a potion first, delay its effect by up to one hour and reactivate it when you need it as a free action.

[Deepblue706]

Delay Potion, I believe, stores potions for CON modifier hours and activates as a swift action. You can delay one at a time.

[Ashiel]

But for the casters it's a free +2 to their spell save DCs at low levels. At high levels it's a free invisibility every round; even if they broke the last round invisibility by casting. They pay nothing for it. Melee pays in either lost full attacks or lost charges. And I think both melee and casters can be in danger of dying.

I like how that assumption on danger always switches depending on the discussion topic. Like whenever talking about melee defense people assume the monsters avoid the melee entirely and go after the casters (as if the melee could care less about protecting anyone but himself). Whenever talking about casters people say they have a million protection spells so they never get hit.
First off, at low levels, popping a potion of fox's cunning and similar spells isn't free at all. A 2nd level spell potion is 300gp, and 150gp to craft. If you're chugging one of those constantly, you're looking at loosing at least 150gp/fight. That's not free at all. Is it worth it in some fights? Yeah, definitely. Is it free? Not hardly.

Personally I don't really see the problem. At high levels casters can sport "free" invisibility in the form of greater invisibility which lasts a long time. Spending a move or even swift action every round to chug a potion doesn't seem very effective to me; especially considering how easy it is at those levels to ignore invisibility or simply dispel it.

I see this actually benefiting melee types more than caster types in virtually every respect. Most low level spells (remember, potions have a level cap) that are worth casting are buffs and protection based spells. Melee classes also sport little extra to do with their move and swift actions other than move (while other types of characters can do fun things with those actions).

Truthfully, the biggest possible threat by making a move or standard action would be unusual potions; such as potions of fireball or grease or similar spells which are interesting to make into potions as custom items for fun and flavor; since this would allow you to effectively use offensive actions with your move actions, then you'd have a problem. But if you don't have such items in your game anyway; I don't see how it benefits casters so much, when melee gets more use out of low level buffs.

[Darrin]

Just, the issue is that at the present, there's no way to effectively act offensively or defensively with your move action.


Things you can do in combat with a move action:

Cloak Dance (XPH): gain concealment
Shrouded Dance (CSc, Skill Trick): DC 20 hide check, gain concealment
Improved Feint (PHB): yeah, I know, waste of an action
Goad (MiniHB): lousier version of Knight's Challenge
Handle Animal: direct an animal to perform a trick it knows
Direct a spell, such as spiritual weapon (Hammersphere) or unseen servant (Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c))
Shadow Stride (ToB, SSg 5): 50' teleport
Order Forged From Chaos (ToB, Cru/War 6): all allies get to move
Soulsight (MoI): Blindsense 5'/essentia
Landshark Books (MoI, Bound to Feet Chakra): Limited tremorsense, 10' + 5'/essentia

[Perducci]

What about using capsules to hold the potion?

It would only allow one potion to be used in combat as a swift action once per encounter. Well unless your character can somehow manage to get the capsule retainer out of his/her mouth and refill it.

[Ashiel]

First off, at low levels, popping a potion of fox's cunning and similar spells isn't free at all. A 2nd level spell potion is 300gp, and 150gp to craft. If you're chugging one of those constantly, you're looking at loosing at least 150gp/fight. That's not free at all. Is it worth it in some fights? Yeah, definitely. Is it free? Not hardly.

Personally I don't really see the problem. At high levels casters can sport "free" invisibility in the form of greater invisibility which lasts a long time. Spending a move or even swift action every round to chug a potion doesn't seem very effective to me; especially considering how easy it is at those levels to ignore invisibility or simply dispel it.

I see this actually benefiting melee types more than caster types in virtually every respect. Most low level spells (remember, potions have a level cap) that are worth casting are buffs and protection based spells. Melee classes also sport little extra to do with their move and swift actions other than move (while other types of characters can do fun things with those actions).

Truthfully, the biggest possible threat by making a move or standard action would be unusual potions; such as potions of fireball or grease or similar spells which are interesting to make into potions as custom items for fun and flavor; since this would allow you to effectively use offensive actions with your move actions, then you'd have a problem. But if you don't have such items in your game anyway; I don't see how it benefits casters so much, when melee gets more use out of low level buffs.

Actually, scratch that last bit. Such unusual potions would require them as attack rolls like grenade-like weapons, which makes them default to standard actions anyway; so my previous warning was a moot one. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Actually, scratch that last bit. Such unusual potions would require them as attack rolls like grenade-like weapons, which makes them default to standard actions anyway; so my previous warning was a moot one. :smalltongue:

They'd require them to be Wondrous Items, specifically. One of the defining traits of a potion is that the spell is cast on the user, and they have to be ingested (or otherwise unambiguously consumed by a single person in the case of other Potion-Like Items.) A potion of Fireball casts Fireball centered on the person who drinks it; if you throw it, you just get a spilled potion.

[Boci]

Chugging it in 3 seconds is bad enough.

Consumable potion bottles (or pills)?

[Ashiel]

They'd require them to be Wondrous Items, specifically. One of the defining traits of a potion is that the spell is cast on the user, and they have to be ingested (or otherwise unambiguously consumed by a single person in the case of other Potion-Like Items.) A potion of Fireball casts Fireball centered on the person who drinks it; if you throw it, you just get a spilled potion.

As I noted previously, they'd have to be house-ruled in and aren't available by default; hence you'd only have to worry about it conflicting with another house rule or optional bit - which humorously wouldn't even conflict with that simply because you'd still have to lob the "potion" for it to work.

There's nothing wrong with making a "potion" that puts a 3rd level AoE or offensive spell (say acid arrow) with the Craft Potion and the standard potion formulas from a game perspective; but it's in no way the standard anyway.

If I seemed to suggest otherwise, then I apologize. I wasn't intending to be misleading.

[ericgrau]

<potion cost>
Nonononono, it's still a matter of action economy. This is not greater invis vs greater invis, this is quickened greater invis vs greater invis. There is in fact a level where the gp cost of certain potions is significant... at which point you only use the lower level potions and still get a serious power boost while sticking to the potions you can afford. The wizard is healing 1d8+1 every round easily, or getting a protection from evil or whatever other spell is nice at level 1, while the melee has to make a serious decision not just some of the time, but every single time. He either loses his move to a new target and thus his ability to attack at all, or he loses a full attack. Except at levels 1-4 when the party is frugal on buying potions anyway, he always loses something.

There is a level when 50 gp is very affordable, then soon 300 gp is, then eventually even 3rd level potions. And for those that can use it and do everything they normally did before, this is free power plain and simple. If they are drunken as a move action that is often true for wizards, but almost never true for melee. Only the biggest of scrooges will worry about the gp vs. the increase in the chance of success in combat (and even reduction in party deaths and resurrection gp costs). Anyone who only looks at cure potions hasn't really taken a good like at the 5 dozen other potions. And even then anyone who's played a caster who never gets attacked has a rather nice DM.

[Myou]

Wait, you hear one person say it's a power boost for casters and call it off? :smallconfused:


Two people - Eldariel and ericgrau, both of whom are experts, and made fine points. :3

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth:

Potion Bracer: Holds up to 3 potion vials. You do not need to spend a Move action (or any action) to draw it, you do not need to drop your weapon, and you do not provoke an AoO. You still need to spend a Standard Action to drink it though, and it can be Sundered. 50 gp, Sharn City of Towers pg 158.

Hilt Hollow: Hides a small potion or other object inside your weapon, which you can draw as a Swift action. You still need to spend a Standard Action to drink it though. Inferior to the potion bracer, but from a better known source. Dungeonscape pg 33.

I'd also mention that someone else can spend their Standard Action to administer a potion to you, like a trained monkey, an enemy that you've Charmed, a follower, etc. There's nothing stopping an adventurer from buying a helper and using Handle Animal to accomplish what you want.

[Ashiel]

Nonononono, it's still a matter of action economy. This is not greater invis vs greater invis, this is quickened greater invis vs greater invis. There is in fact a level where the gp cost of certain potions is significant... at which point you only use the lower level potions and still get a serious power boost while sticking to the potions you can afford. The wizard is healing 1d8+1 every round easily, or getting a protection from evil or whatever other spell is nice at level 1, while the melee has to make a serious decision not just some of the time, but every single time. He either loses his move to a new target and thus his ability to attack at all, or he loses a full attack. Except at levels 1-4 when the party is frugal on buying potions anyway, he always loses something.

There is a level when 50 gp is very affordable, then soon 300 gp is, then eventually even 3rd level potions. And for those that can use it and do everything they normally did before, this is free power plain and simple. If they are drunken as a move action that is often true for wizards, but almost never true for melee. Only the biggest of scrooges will worry about the gp vs. the increase in the chance of success in combat (and even reduction in party deaths and resurrection gp costs). Anyone who only looks at cure potions hasn't really taken a good like at the 5 dozen other potions. And even then anyone who's played a caster who never gets attacked has a rather nice DM.

Not until high levels would I consider dropping 750gp (3rd level potion) a fight, or even 300gp for that matter. I position again that at the levels that it would be feasible to do, that it's no longer an optimum strategy. At the time someone should feel it a good idea to drop 300gp a combat - or even more insane, per round - to be invisible isn't a very good idea. Even if you were to craft all of those potions yourself for half price, the 3.5 rules limit you to 1 potion per day, which means you'll need to be buying them at full price to be able to spam them.

That being said, it's not much better than things like boots of speed. Boots of speed costs 12,000gp and last forever. As a free action you can haste yourself for up to 10 rounds. The rounds needn't be consecutive. Now yes, 12,000gp is a lot of money for a character, but at the time that chugging 2nd - 3rd level potions would even be viable, the boots would be far more ideal.

A potion of haste for example costs 750gp. It's a one time buff for 5 solid rounds of haste. After drinking 16 of them, you've spent enough to buy some boots of speed. If the effect is dispelled (which is very easy due to the low CL of the spell effects), then it is wasted.

Once again, I pose that non-casters can benefit for more from this. A fighter would be in better shape being able to chug a potion of mirror-image, blur, cure critical wounds, the various animal-themed ability buffs, haste, enlarge person, see invisibility and so forth. Beyond simply moving, warrior types usually don't have much to do with their move actions (while even core-only casters have several spells that make use of move actions).

The potions give access to power that such classes generally do not have. It also makes them an option during combat, where their main actions are standard-action based. While potions of course give benefits to both physical and magical classes; I think it benefits the physical more - assuming the SRD rules and what-not.

It also has the side effect of making potions useful again. I mean, as it is, potions are considered the absolute worst way to heal if you can avoid it. It's worth carrying around a few potions of cure minor wounds to stabilize people, but healing with potions is a big no-no. Furthermore, most buffs in potions that are worth the sacrifice also cause you to waste a round before you see any benefit; and then the durations aren't very long.

I'm not arguing that it would boost power a bit; but I think the potential benefits might outweigh the cons. Of course it would need some play-testing, but I think the OP might wish to explore it further for its potential pros. :smallsmile:

[TheMadLinguist]

I don't think you can actually make potions of personal range spells.

[PinkysBrain]

Indeed, which is an especial pain in the ass with see invisibility for the DM (no real invisibility counters for mooks).

[Person_Man]

Things you can do in combat with a move action:

Cloak Dance (XPH): gain concealment
Shrouded Dance (CSc, Skill Trick): DC 20 hide check, gain concealment
Improved Feint (PHB): yeah, I know, waste of an action
Goad (MiniHB): lousier version of Knight's Challenge
Handle Animal: direct an animal to perform a trick it knows
Direct a spell, such as spiritual weapon (Hammersphere) or unseen servant (Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c))
Shadow Stride (ToB, SSg 5): 50' teleport
Order Forged From Chaos (ToB, Cru/War 6): all allies get to move
Soulsight (MoI): Blindsense 5'/essentia
Landshark Books (MoI, Bound to Feet Chakra): Limited tremorsense, 10' + 5'/essentia

Nice list. I would add:

Fearsome Armor: Demoralize an enemy. With Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, this can make everyone within 10 ft of you Cower.
Extraordinary Concentration: Maintain Concentration on a spell (Call Lightning, Storm of Elemental Fury, etc).
Improved Diversion: Can create a diversion (allowing you to Hide).
Winged Warrior: Create a cloud of concealment.
Earth Sense or Hear the Unseen: Pinpoint locations of enemies.
Quickdraw: Draw a hidden weapon.
Rapid Reload: Reload a heavy crossbow (potentially useful at very low levels).
Woodland Archer feat: Snipe and Hide repeatedly.
Ki Blast: Make a force orb you can throw at your enemy.
Dimension Door: Variety of ways you can do this as a Move Action.

[jiriku]

What about using capsules to hold the potion?

It would only allow one potion to be used in combat as a swift action once per encounter. Well unless your character can somehow manage to get the capsule retainer out of his/her mouth and refill it.

I believe there's something like that already in Complete Adventurer. Very James Bond.

[Otodetu]

So there are no standard ways to get potions as move actions?

I am having trouble deciding if move action potions is a good idea or not in my games (sandbow world so no standard wbl), it sort of feels like free quicken spell, and potions are allready silent...

[Tinydwarfman]

So there are no standard ways to get potions as move actions?

I am having trouble deciding if move action potions is a good idea or not in my games (sandbow world so no standard wbl), it sort of feels like free quicken spell, and potions are allready silent...

If you're really worried about it limit move action to healing potions. I don't think anyone is arguing about their potential overpoweredness.