PDA

View Full Version : Inevitables & Aberrations



Splendor
2010-03-17, 06:54 PM
INEVITABLE
Hailing from the lawful neutral plane of Mechanus, inevitables are constructs Whose sole aim is to enforce the natural laws of the universe.
(Monster Manual)


INIMICAL TO NATURE
Aberrations have no rightful place in the natural order of things. They are interlopers and invaders, creatures whose presence damages the fragile chains of being that define the natural world.
(Lords of Madness)

So shouldn't Aberrations constantly be being attacked by Inevitables?

How about Elans? Not only are they aberrations but they have also broken the “Everyone dies eventually" rule, being that they are don't die from old age.

jmbrown
2010-03-17, 06:56 PM
If they're a cosmic/global threat, yeah. Inevitables don't care about every random choker or aboleth holed up in some dark, secluded portion of the universe minding its own business.

Runestar
2010-03-17, 06:57 PM
Except there are no inevitables whose purpose is to attack monsters outside the natural order of things (closest being the marut, which targets liches). :smallbiggrin:

Scorpions__
2010-03-17, 07:02 PM
I for one can see the inevitables warring against the aberrations, is this your campaign world? That doesn't sound like a bad focal point...





DM[F]R

Starbuck_II
2010-03-17, 07:03 PM
How about Elans? Not only are they aberrations but they have also broken the “Everyone dies eventually" rule, being that they are don't die from old age.

Elans are a secretive group of Gingers: the first rule of Elan Club: you don't talk about Elan Club.
So Inevitables never find out unless Elan acts dumb like brags.

Teron
2010-03-17, 07:15 PM
Appropriately for magic robots from the plane of absolute law, each type of inevitable has a specific purpose that it pursues single-mindedly. You could homebrew one that hunts aberrations, but the existing kinds don't care because it's not their job.

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-17, 07:20 PM
I'm sure there would be a type of Inevitable designed to hunt aberrations, WotC just didn't do a write up for one.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-17, 07:21 PM
So Inevitables never find out unless Elan acts dumb like brags.

Inevitables don't hunt Elans because they believe an "Elan" is a bard who survives out of sheer luck (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html). Then again, Elan is Chaotic, growing stronger, having character development and IS genre-savvy, so why an Inevitable hasn't gone against him is out of my grasp.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 08:20 PM
Mind Flayer
...
Alignment: Usually Lawful Evil

I fail to see the problem.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-17, 08:29 PM
I fail to see the problem.

Not all kinds of law is the same, you know...

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 08:31 PM
Not all kinds of law is the same, you know...

No, but they're all better than not being Lawful (to an Inevitable, anyway.)

Admiral Squish
2010-03-17, 09:23 PM
No, but they're all better than not being Lawful (to an Inevitable, anyway.)

Technically, the inevitables are enforcing the concrete laws of the universe. Mind flayers are trying to enforce the laws of a bizzare, alien society on this perfectly serviceable one. Is generally bad mojo.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-17, 09:26 PM
(Monster Manual)


(Lords of Madness)

So shouldn't Aberrations constantly be being attacked by Inevitables?

The inevitables don't protect nature, they protect the fundamental state of the universe.

But yes, it's kinda weird.


How about Elans? Not only are they aberrations but they have also broken the “Everyone dies eventually" rule, being that they are don't die from old age.

They do die at 1000+10d% years old according to the EPH. :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2010-03-17, 09:30 PM
The inevitables don't protect nature, they protect the fundamental state of the universe.

But yes, it's kinda weird.

Yep, surprisingly they care not about Truenamers who are remaking the rules.
But then that might be a nerf to Truenamers to make them attack Truenamers for using their class features..


They do die at 1000+10d% years old according to the EPH. :smallconfused:

That was errated to a sideways 8. Yes, they live forever now.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-17, 09:37 PM
Yep, surprisingly they care not about Truenamers who are remaking the rules.
But then that might be a nerf to Truenamers to make them attack Truenamers for using their class features..

Why not? They did it to the Green Star Adept. :smalltongue:


That was errated to a sideways 8. Yes, they live forever now.

I... see.

jokey665
2010-03-17, 09:47 PM
I... see.

That's why Elans are so awesome. It's fun to play a character who looks down on Dragons for being shortlived.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:57 PM
That's why Elans are so awesome. It's fun to play a character who looks down on Dragons for being shortlived.

The best part is, they're humans. The ultimate human. Suck it, elves!


Technically, the inevitables are enforcing the concrete laws of the universe. Mind flayers are trying to enforce the laws of a bizzare, alien society on this perfectly serviceable one. Is generally bad mojo.

That's a problem for us on the Material, but you can see how Mechanus might not really care one way or the other.

Hell, they might actually HELP, seeing as how the Mindflayers' greatest enemies live in Limbo and all.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-17, 09:58 PM
That's why Elans are so awesome. It's fun to play a character who looks down on Dragons for being shortlived.

*coughwarforgedcough*


Yep, surprisingly they care not about Truenamers who are remaking the rules.
But then that might be a nerf to Truenamers to make them attack Truenamers for using their class features..

Truename magic is 'normal.,' or at least more normal than normal magic, since by definition it uses the base code of the universe and simply tweaks sub-sections of it.

Yes, technically inevitables should attack aberations, but they probably only do so in their copious (/sarcasm) spare time.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 10:11 PM
Why not? They did it to the Green Star Adept. :smalltongue:

Ironically, the biggest danger to GSAs is other GSAs.

"My starmetal! I saw it first!"

Splendor
2010-03-18, 03:17 AM
If they're a cosmic/global threat, yeah. Inevitables don't care about every random choker or aboleth holed up in some dark, secluded portion of the universe minding its own business. - jmbrown

Except there are no inevitables whose purpose is to attack monsters outside the natural order of things (closest being the marut, which targets liches). - Runestar

“Maruts represent the inevitability of death. They confront those who would try to deny the grave itself. Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span (such as a lich) could be targeted by a marut. Those who take extraordinary measures to cheat death in some other way (such as sacrificing hundreds of others to keep oneself safe from a plague) might be labeled transgressors as well.” –MM1 pg 159

They don’t care whether or not it's a cosmic/global threat. They care about each one.

Maruts don't just go after liches, they go after any who use unnatural means to extend their life.

Geddoe
2010-03-18, 03:26 AM
Everybody knows that the real reason is that Inevitables don't care about anything but what the PC's are doing. They are basically a license for the DM to screw with his players for doing things that the DM's BBEG does unhindered.

MickJay
2010-03-18, 04:28 AM
It would be a bit disappointing, though, if the PCs arrived at BBEG's fortress, only to find him dead and the fortress already looted and abandoned, just because some Inevitable slew him a few days earlier. :smalltongue:

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 04:40 AM
Just on the whole Marut thing, they seem to only care about immortal creatures on the prime otherwise they would have to wage war against almost all creatures of the inner and outer planes.

Maybe Demiliches aren't that way by choice, perhaps they take that form to escape the collective Eire of the Marut.

Calmar
2010-03-18, 05:42 AM
I fail to see the problem.

Indeed. Being of lawful alignment does not prevent you from breaking natural laws (not simply physical laws) in the first place. A lich may be LE too, after all.


No, but they're all better than not being Lawful (to an Inevitable, anyway.)
No inevitable cares about that when you break the laws it protects , just as no city watchman or police officer cares whether you otherwise don't rob people.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-18, 05:44 AM
Yep, surprisingly they care not about Truenamers who are remaking the rules.
But then that might be a nerf to Truenamers to make them attack Truenamers for using their class features..


That was errated to a sideways 8. Yes, they live forever now.

Truenamers are already penalized enough for using Trunamer class features...:smallwink:

I have been searching for a Truenamer class fix and have yet to find one, so I may go and houserule it. The class has great flavor; but that's all it is. like cotton candy. It tastes good at first, then there is the inevitable (heh...) tummyache after having too much of it.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 05:46 AM
Indeed. Being of lawful alignment does not prevent you from breaking natural laws (not simply physical laws) in the first place. A lich may be LE too, after all.

Indeed, but Mindflayers tend towards Law as a species and thus wouldn't be as onerous to an Inevitable on principle.


No inevitable cares about that when you break the laws it protects , just as no city watchman or police officer cares whether you otherwise don't rob people.

The laws it protects are universal and abstract. Violate contracts? Illithid don't make them with other races, they see everything else as cattle. Extend life? They revile their own liches (Alhoons) as much as humanoids revile theirs. Escape punishment? The Elder Brains would beat the Zelekhuts to the punch. And so on.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:29 AM
Indeed, but Mindflayers tend towards Law as a species and thus wouldn't be as onerous to an Inevitable on principle.



The laws it protects are universal and abstract. Violate contracts? Illithid don't make them with other races, they see everything else as cattle. Extend life? They revile their own liches (Alhoons) as much as humanoids revile theirs. Escape punishment? The Elder Brains would beat the Zelekhuts to the punch. And so on.

Quaruts may beat up the elder brains if they meddle too much with their psionic powers.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:33 AM
Quaruts may beat up the elder brains if they meddle too much with their psionic powers.

If the Quaruts haven't gone after them by now for simply arriving in our time in the first place, they must have deemed their presence here to be necessary to some kind of timeline self-repairing contingency.

I agree that further disruptions might make them a target, but as you yourself pointed out that's really an Elder Brain issue rather than an Illithid issue.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-18, 06:37 AM
Everybody knows that the real reason is that Inevitables don't care about anything but what the PC's are doing. They are basically a license for the DM to screw with his players for doing things that the DM's BBEG does unhindered.

Eh, there's stuff from Wizards designers saying they're meant to be about 50-50, since you can see PCs breaking the laws but you can also see their enemies breaking the laws and therefore the inevitables aiding the PCs.

Incidentally, the existence of Quaruts means that Celerity is not overpowered. :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-03-18, 06:37 AM
I'd say aberrations violate the rules the gods set when they created the worlds of the material plane.
For the inevitables, aberrations are just not what the gods intended to create, but by the rules of the multiverse, they don't violate the laws of existance in any way.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:38 AM
Nobody expects the Quarut inquisition, not even the spanish inquisition.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 06:42 AM
I'd say aberrations violate the rules the gods set when they created the worlds of the material plane.
For the inevitables, aberrations are just not what the gods intended to create, but by the rules of the multiverse, they don't violate the laws of existance in any way.

That's really campain specific, In Eberron the aboleth have been on the prime as long if not longer than any other creature.

Also in buffy and hellboy the earth was definitely home to very bizarre creatures before humanity got there.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:44 AM
That's really campain specific, In Eberron the aboleth have been on the prime as long if not longer than any other creature.

Also in buffy and hellboy the earth was definitely home to very bizarre creatures before humanity got there.

The Aboleths tend to predate everything save for a very select few in most official settings, greyhawk/ 3.5e core included.

hewhosaysfish
2010-03-18, 07:24 AM
Yep, surprisingly they care not about Truenamers who are remaking the rules.
But then that might be a nerf to Truenamers to make them attack Truenamers for using their class features..

Remaking rules is not the same thing as breaking them. The Inevitables shouldn't care about remaking. (Unless of course, one of the rules is "No changing the rules". Change that one first :smallbiggrin: )

So a little kobold is sitting there, quietly abiding by the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Any inevitable that cares will see this and, seeing that the kobold is complying with the rules, be satisfied.
Then a Truenamer comes along and amends the 2nd law of thermodynamics to the effect that that kobold is now required to be on fire. The kobold dutifully ignites. If the inevitable (most likely a Koboldonfirut) checks in again, it will see that the new rules are being complied with.
Unless, of course, the kobold doesn't catch on fire, in which case the Koboldonfirut will angry with it for it's law-breaking and restore cosmic order by setting the kobold on fire itself. At no point is the Truenamer in any danger.

Now,how' that for a Truenamer fix? They get Inevitables on their side!

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 08:37 AM
Remaking rules is not the same thing as breaking them. The Inevitables shouldn't care about remaking. (Unless of course, one of the rules is "No changing the rules". Change that one first :smallbiggrin: )

So a little kobold is sitting there, quietly abiding by the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Any inevitable that cares will see this and, seeing that the kobold is complying with the rules, be satisfied.
Then a Truenamer comes along and amends the 2nd law of thermodynamics to the effect that that kobold is now required to be on fire. The kobold dutifully ignites. If the inevitable (most likely a Koboldonfirut) checks in again, it will see that the new rules are being complied with.
Unless, of course, the kobold doesn't catch on fire, in which case the Koboldonfirut will angry with it for it's law-breaking and restore cosmic order by setting the kobold on fire itself. At no point is the Truenamer in any danger.

Now,how' that for a Truenamer fix? They get Inevitables on their side!

That almost makes Truenamers playable.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-18, 08:57 AM
Everybody knows that the real reason is that Inevitables don't care about anything but what the PC's are doing. They are basically a license for the DM to screw with his players for doing things that the DM's BBEG does unhindered.

This. Quite transparently. I've never seen them suggested in any other way than to stomp on people's plans or actions, be it a player who has 'transgressed' in some way, or a DM whose ideas have offended the internet's masses.

(For example; "Yeah, you're the DM, you could make that happen, BUT AN INFINATE MARUT DEATHSQUAD WILL PUNISH EVERYTHING. :smallmad:")

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:13 AM
This. Quite transparently. I've never seen them suggested in any other way than to stomp on people's plans or actions, be it a player who has 'transgressed' in some way, or a DM whose ideas have offended the internet's masses.

(For example; "Yeah, you're the DM, you could make that happen, BUT AN INFINATE MARUT DEATHSQUAD WILL PUNISH EVERYTHING. :smallmad:")

I'm inclined to agree, but the trouble is that Inevitables do exist in the default setting and they do have very clear motivations. So not letting them get involved can be just as much a handwave as bringing them in.

Personally, I see them as a way to spice things up. Sure you can try for immortality, but don't expect the Maruts to make it easy for you. They have stats, they can be killed, therefore this is not so much rule 0 as it is a speedbump. And they can be brought in against the BBEG as well, to either help the PCs out or as a wildcard third faction trying to shut down both sides.

And incidentally, there are no "Marut Deathsquads." They are loners. If you can't handle one Marut, you're too weak to try for immortality anyway.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-18, 09:17 AM
Personally, with the sheer volume of undead, liches, and horrible, reality warping warp horrors Aberrations, I think it can be demonstrated that they don't really exist and do what they are supposed to do.

So they can be safely ignored. I dislike the flavour of them myself anyway, because it very clearly to me sounds like they were only ever meant to be a DM fiat police force.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 09:20 AM
Personally, with the sheer volume of undead, liches, and horrible, reality warping warp horrors Aberrations, I think it can be demonstrated that they don't really exist and do what they are supposed to do.

So they can be safely ignored. I dislike the flavour of them myself anyway, because it very clearly to me sounds like they were only ever meant to be a DM fiat police force.

Well, it isn't like Inevitables have detect (broken law) ability. So if they hear about it: they will stop it, but otherwise...

Granted, one wonders why they don't gang up and attack Vecna since he is pretty easy to know about (lich and all).

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-18, 09:25 AM
Well, it isn't like Inevitables have detect (broken law) ability. So if they hear about it: they will stop it, but otherwise...

Granted, one wonders why they don't gang up and attack Vecna since he is pretty easy to know about (lich and all).

If they don't have the ability to detect a broken law, how do they ever find anything, let alone transgressing player characters? Also, what IS the knowledge DC on the existence of Aberrations and/or the various horrible law-destroying gribblies in question?

Also, If there are Inevitables designed to prevent tinkering with fundemental laws and the avoidance of death, shouldn't they be working on overthrowing and killing Vecna and all the other gods anyway? etc etc.

Kris Strife
2010-03-18, 09:28 AM
Well, it isn't like Inevitables have detect (broken law) ability. So if they hear about it: they will stop it, but otherwise...

Granted, one wonders why they don't gang up and attack Vecna since he is pretty easy to know about (lich and all).

When Vecna remade the universe from 2nd Edition to 3rd, he made the rule: Vecna Always Wins.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 09:29 AM
If they don't have the ability to detect a broken law, how do they ever find anything, let alone transgressing player characters?

I assume the Transgressing players get fibbed on by a snitch: Someone goes to Mechanus and tells gossip about so and so. This Angers the Inevitables who send their hitmen out.

Maybe a Demon to sow Chaos does it to see the conflict emerge.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 09:33 AM
(watch me butcher names)
In eberron there was a breach of the realm of insanity xoriat in korvaire where an army of aberrations destroyed an entire goblin civilization. No mention of inevitables coming in to save the day.

There is two major countrys where immotality might be an issue, the undead military dictatorship karrnath where they create vast armies of the undead and is ruled by vampires (shhh, the players aren't supposed to know that) and what is probably worse is the undying court, a group of incredibly old elves who magically made themselves immortal without loosing their souls, infact their more good than most elves for some odd reason.

yet maruts have never attacked either place.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:33 AM
Personally, with the sheer volume of undead, liches, and horrible, reality warping warp horrors Aberrations, I think it can be demonstrated that they don't really exist and do what they are supposed to do.

Or they're too busy fighting Slaadi to send expeditions to the Material very often.


So they can be safely ignored. I dislike the flavour of them myself anyway, because it very clearly to me sounds like they were only ever meant to be a DM fiat police force.

It helps to have an in-universe way to explain why every evil caster doesn't just dig up a Libris Mortis and seek lichdom. Sure a DM can use fiat to deal with any inconsistency at a gaming table, but an actual campaign setting doesn't have this luxury.



yet maruts have never attacked either place.

Again, easily explained - they are fighting Slaadi. It's the same reason Tanar'ri and Solars aren't running around policing mortals everywhere either.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 09:35 AM
If they don't have the ability to detect a broken law, how do they ever find anything, let alone transgressing player characters? Also, what IS the knowledge DC on the existence of Aberrations and/or the various horrible law-destroying gribblies in question?

Also, If there are Inevitables designed to prevent tinkering with fundemental laws and the avoidance of death, shouldn't they be working on overthrowing and killing Vecna and all the other gods anyway? etc etc.

there is inevitable who kills people who try to become new gods, but does nothing to current gods, they just protect the status quo.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 09:42 AM
Or they're too busy fighting Slaadi to send expeditions to the Material very often.

Again, easily explained - they are fighting Slaadi. It's the same reason Tanar'ri and Solars aren't running around policing mortals everywhere either.

does anyone make majorly important contracts with the slaad?
Does anybody try to take a slaad to court?
do slaad have time travel abilities?
do slaad try to irrigate deserts?
Slaad don't seem to cheat death and ascend to god hood any more/less than any other plannar race.

Why exactly would the Inevitables go after slaad?

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:44 AM
Why exactly would the Inevitables go after slaad?

Pure Chaos vs. Pure Law. This conflict has been going on since the beginning of the universe - before there were contracts, or deserts, or time, or life. It doesn't need explanation; it just is.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 09:54 AM
Pure Chaos vs. Pure Law. This conflict has been going on since the beginning of the universe - before there were contracts, or deserts, or time, or life. It doesn't need explanation; it just is.

Inevitables aren't creatures of pure law, they are just robots created by ancient magitek to regulate certain forces in the multiverse.

Also Just from the slaad description they reproduce via infecting people that makes them evil, sense they do not rise from the stuff of their plane they aren't true outsiders in my books also there is nothing really chaotic in the slaad fluff.

Draxar
2010-03-18, 10:13 AM
Just on the whole Marut thing, they seem to only care about immortal creatures on the prime otherwise they would have to wage war against almost all creatures of the inner and outer planes.

Maybe Demiliches aren't that way by choice, perhaps they take that form to escape the collective Eire of the Marut.

Incorrect.


Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span could be targeted by a marut

Outsiders are naturally immortal, as are most Fae.

Killoren, f'r example. A Killoren who is born a Killoren, and runs around doing Killoren things for countless millenea is not using unnatural means to extend their lifespan. It is a natural part of him that he does not die of old age.

A lich or an Elan is not, before they go through the process, naturally immortal. They have used unnatural means to extend their lifespan.

I'd actually see Marut as more likely to go for the Elan council than individual Elan.

sonofzeal
2010-03-18, 10:18 AM
(watch me butcher names)
In eberron there was a breach of the realm of insanity xoriat in korvaire where an army of aberrations destroyed an entire goblin civilization. No mention of inevitables coming in to save the day.

There is two major countrys where immotality might be an issue, the undead military dictatorship karrnath where they create vast armies of the undead and is ruled by vampires (shhh, the players aren't supposed to know that) and what is probably worse is the undying court, a group of incredibly old elves who magically made themselves immortal without loosing their souls, infact their more good than most elves for some odd reason.

yet maruts have never attacked either place.
Eberron is a different campaign setting, with its own cosmology. I'm not too clear on that aspect of it, but I'm pretty sure there's no crossover with Mechanus. There may be Inevitable-type creatures out there, but their role as universal guardians more or less belongs to the Gatekeeper Druids, IIRC.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 10:29 AM
Inevitables aren't creatures of pure law, they are just robots created by ancient magitek to regulate certain forces in the multiverse.

Wha..? If they aren't pure Law, who exactly are?
They are all Law subtyped, with no bias towards good or evil, so what would you consider them?


Also Just from the slaad description they reproduce via infecting people that makes them evil, sense they do not rise from the stuff of their plane they aren't true outsiders in my books also there is nothing really chaotic in the slaad fluff.

MM specifically calls them "creatures of Chaos." They are also Chaos-subtyped.

arguskos
2010-03-18, 10:59 AM
Wha..? If they aren't pure Law, who exactly are?
They are all Law subtyped, with no bias towards good or evil, so what would you consider them?
Indeed. Hell, the PLANE OF PURE LAW spontaneously generated them according to ancient regulations to enforce universal Law. Inevitables hunt and destroy creatures of Chaos, regardless if they've broken any laws, because as creatures of Chaos, they are incapable of complying with the Laws of Mechanus, and so must be removed for the greater good of the Laws.


MM specifically calls them "creatures of Chaos." They are also Chaos-subtyped.
Don't they ALL have the chaotic subtype? Nvm, I just checked, and they all have the chaotic subtype. In Manual of the Planes, they are mentioned as the iconic and exemplar race of chaos as well, in the Limbo description.

Geiger, you might want to actually do your homework before making an argument as to the nature of planar affairs and creatures, simply because the D&D cosmology is very clear about these things. :smallwink: Oh, and cause planar stuff is FUN to work with, read about, and play around with.

Warpwolf16
2010-03-18, 10:59 AM
those unatural creatures called Aberrations vary in alignment((has already been stated with ilithid)) Everyone hates them, but no exact race would hunt them, except maybe druids and spirit shamans...due to the 'un-natural' birth of them.

Inevitables are a different case, since they are not seen or heard of as much as anything else.Though the control the balance of law this sint their excuse to 'hunt' all creatures bound to chaos.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-18, 11:22 AM
Ironically, the biggest danger to GSAs is other GSAs.

"My starmetal! I saw it first!"

Come, come, it gets even worse...they ingest it into their body.

Therefore, the richest source of starmetal IS other GSAs. Canibalism, here we come!

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-18, 11:29 AM
Wha..? If they aren't pure Law, who exactly are?

The Modrons. Living creatures, rather than constructs.

Flickerdart
2010-03-18, 11:54 AM
But Constructs are by definition more "pure law" than living creatures, as they're physically incapable of breaking the laws they were programmed with.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 12:26 PM
But Constructs are by definition more "pure law" than living creatures, as they're physically incapable of breaking the laws they were programmed with.

I hope you are right.
In a campaign I'm in, we are fighting inevitables which I suspect are breaking their own laws (but I can only assumes as we fought celestials who did evil) and we are good aligned.
We are fighting lawful-like Slaads (at least according to NPCs they sound lawful as they are organized, etc).
Guess I'll find out what is rewriting natural laws for these things eventually.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-18, 12:29 PM
I hope you are right.
In a campaign I'm in, we are fighting inevitables which I suspect are breaking their own laws (but I can only assumes as we fought celestials who did evil) and we are good aligned.
We are fighting lawful-like Slaads (at least according to NPCs they sound lawful as they are organized, etc).
Guess I'll find out what is rewriting natural laws for these things eventually.

Here is it. Someone optimized a Truenamer! And optimized HARD.

Draxar
2010-03-18, 12:52 PM
We are fighting lawful-like Slaads (at least according to NPCs they sound lawful as they are organized, etc).


Depends how organised they are. If they're setting up hierarchies, coming up with and enforcing laws, and so forth, then sure, they're lawful.

If they're performing chaotic actions as a group in an organised fashion, then they can still be chaotic. Chances are there's a fair amount of scrapping over who is more powerful than who, within a given Slaad type, and the rules are 'Whatever the leader says at the time'

Of course, what with the celestials also doing it there may be an external effect, though there it also depends; you can do goodly acts in a somewhat bastardish fashion.

Essentially what I'm saying is that organisation != lawful, being nice != good.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 12:55 PM
Depends how organised they are. If they're setting up hierarchies, coming up with and enforcing laws, and so forth, then sure, they're lawful.

If they're performing chaotic actions as a group in an organised fashion, then they can still be chaotic. Chances are there's a fair amount of scrapping over who is more powerful than who, within a given Slaad type, and the rules are 'Whatever the leader says at the time'

Of course, what with the celestials also doing it there may be an external effect, though there it also depends; you can do goodly acts in a somewhat bastardish fashion.

Essentially what I'm saying is that organisation != lawful, being nice != good.
They (Angels) slaughted Peasants for fun.
Almost destroyed a whole village till we saved them.

Quallic?
2010-03-18, 01:08 PM
ITT we take the alignment system far too seriously.

Otherwise, I have never read anywhere that the Inevitable don't actively hunt Aberrations. I can think of several plausible reasons they would not, but they are not so concrete as to contradict the lack of ruling on the topic.

boomwolf
2010-03-18, 01:12 PM
The reason why Inevitables don't go around beating everyone down is the same reason why archons, angels demons and devils (and slaad, and deamons and whatever is the NG outsider)

There is tons of work, and not alot of them.
So they use "servants", humanoids that share goals or have common enemies.

Sure, if an inevitable runs into an aberration it WILL attempt to destroy it, but it does not have the TIME or the MANPOWER to seek out every single damn one of them.
So they seek out the most problematic ones.

A lich hides in his lair all day, never leaving, and he only connection to the world is sending his familiar to look for new book every now and then, fine. nobody cares. he doesn't DO anything that distubs order, he DID thing, but in past sense. maybe they will deal with him later, if they got nothing better.

A mindflayer is going all out, bending the rules of mindflayers themselves, and makes as many tadpoles survive as possible in some why, and then making mass ceremorphosis rituals, now THATS a threat that must be handled. calling all inevitables, that one's a sucker.

Yora
2010-03-18, 05:23 PM
I never understood the idea behind inevitables. Their only reason to exist is to pop out of nowhere and scream "die infidel" and be a deus ex machina whenever the gm needs one.

By "maintaining the law" doing ordinary police work can't be what it's talked about.
They are also surely not there to enforce contracts, because most contracts are far to mundane to be worth bothering about.

What inevitables could be used for is for maintaining the natural laws of the multiverse and enforce contracts of cosmic proportions.
For example an archmage wants to destroy an entire layer of a plane, or create a massive rift to the plane of fire that will consume dozens or hundreds of prime worlds. Or a priest king offers the service of his entire people to a deity for all eternity, and 600 years later his successor refuses a call. That would be things were inevitables are called in to maintain that the laws of nature remain what they are and that the basic pilars of planar society are maintained.
Problem is, that they are far to weak to handle such threats. :smallconfused:

They probably would work as simple law enforcement in planar settings like sigil, but in normal prime material plane campaigns where outsiders are not normally members of society, they just don't work as advertised.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 05:58 PM
I never understood the idea behind inevitables. Their only reason to exist is to pop out of nowhere and scream "die infidel" and be a deus ex machina whenever the gm needs one.

By "maintaining the law" doing ordinary police work can't be what it's talked about.
They are also surely not there to enforce contracts, because most contracts are far to mundane to be worth bothering about.

What inevitables could be used for is for maintaining the natural laws of the multiverse and enforce contracts of cosmic proportions.
For example an archmage wants to destroy an entire layer of a plane, or create a massive rift to the plane of fire that will consume dozens or hundreds of prime worlds. Or a priest king offers the service of his entire people to a deity for all eternity, and 600 years later his successor refuses a call. That would be things were inevitables are called in to maintain that the laws of nature remain what they are and that the basic pilars of planar society are maintained.
Problem is, that they are far to weak to handle such threats. :smallconfused:

They probably would work as simple law enforcement in planar settings like sigil, but in normal prime material plane campaigns where outsiders are not normally members of society, they just don't work as advertised.

More dire threats are dealt with by advanced Inevitables or ones with class levels (Obligatum is an example of the latter.)

That archmage is going to have an elite death squad made up of max hit dice level 30 quarut clerics up his grill in no-time.

Mikeavelli
2010-03-18, 06:31 PM
The Marut was originally the planescape writeup of the thing that kills prospero in the masque of the red death (http://www.online-literature.com/poe/36/") - and the original monstrous manual for the planescape setting had a fluff story almost identical to that story, except it explicitly described the thing as a giant statue. they were intended to be used that way too, punishing people who avoided death.

they came about and were designed because one of the writers read that poem and thought, 'cool! I want to make onE!"


it seems everyone else ever involved with D&D just went and forgot they ever existed. they don't make a whole lot of sense as written, but the idea of a "multiverse police force" mmade out of law golems is pretty awesome, i just take the stats and general idea, and use them in my campaign just like that.

fighting off aberrations is a fantastic idea.



also, immortals have a very long time in which they can be brought to justice. Just because inevitables haven't shown up in the last ten thousand years doesn't mean they're not going to.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:33 PM
The reason why Inevitables don't go around beating everyone down is the same reason why archons, angels demons and devils (and slaad, and deamons and whatever is the NG outsider)

NG Outsiders are called Guardinals. [/teaching]

arguskos
2010-03-18, 06:33 PM
NG Outsiders are called "no one cares about them". [/teaching]
Sorry, had to fix that for you. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:36 PM
Sorry, had to fix that for you. :smalltongue:

You leave me and my furries alone!

http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/images/MM35_PG142.jpg

Besides, getting to roar Holy World at will is a supremely badass ability.

And Mustevals make adorable familiars:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75111.jpg

Bibliomancer
2010-03-18, 06:40 PM
NG Outsiders are called Guardinals. [/teaching]

(And angels).

Is there a specific race of evil outsiders that act as the multi-purpose servants of dieties in any setting that you've read? Death Angels, maybe? It would be odd if the designers created specific races of outsiders for every alignment (except perhaps neutral, which is nevertheless covered somewhat in every MMs) and then added a pan-good race without creating an evil counterpart.

Are you aware of such a race in any sourcebook or homebrew? Failing that, do you think that that would be a good idea for the next monster creation contest?

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:41 PM
(And angels).

Is there a specific race of evil outsiders that act as the multi-purpose servants of dieties in any setting that you've read? Death Angels, maybe? It would be odd if the designers created specific races of outsiders for every alignment (except perhaps neutral, which is nevertheless covered somewhat in every MMs) and then added a pan-good race without creating an evil counterpart.

Are you aware of such a race in any sourcebook or homebrew? Failing that, do you think that that would be a good idea for the next monster creation contest?
No, Evil lacks that unity.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-18, 06:46 PM
No, Evil lacks that unity.

Fair enough. However, shouldn't evil gods have a special race of servants with unshakeable loyalty, especially since they can't trust devils, demons, or yugoloths? The FCII explicitly mentions that tensions exist between the archfiends and the evil gods.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:48 PM
(And angels).

Angels can be any good alignment, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) actually. But Guardinals are Always NG, just like Eladrin (in 3.5 anyway) are Always CG and Archons are Always LG.


Fair enough. However, shouldn't evil gods have a special race of servants with unshakeable loyalty, especially since they can't trust devils, demons, or yugoloths? The FCII explicitly mentions that tensions exist between the archfiends and the evil gods.

They do - Undead.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 07:04 PM
Eberron is a different campaign setting, with its own cosmology. I'm not too clear on that aspect of it, but I'm pretty sure there's no crossover with Mechanus. There may be Inevitable-type creatures out there, but their role as universal guardians more or less belongs to the Gatekeeper Druids, IIRC.

They combined Mechanus with Arcadia to create the lawful plane of Daanvi where most inevitables reside. Except the murut who reside on Dolurrh.


Indeed. Hell, the PLANE OF PURE LAW spontaneously generated them according to ancient regulations to enforce universal Law. Inevitables hunt and destroy creatures of Chaos, regardless if they've broken any laws, because as creatures of Chaos, they are incapable of complying with the Laws of Mechanus, and so must be removed for the greater good of the Laws.

I seem to remember the flavor text describing inevitables as being manufactured, so no they are not a natural part of any plane, though some of that planes energy probably has affected them. Also if they simply attacked creatures of chaos they wouldn't be very effective police force. Imagine if the police spend all their time beating hippies to death with their batons while ignoring a business owner who has poisoned the water supply with his industrial runoff.


Don't they ALL have the chaotic subtype? Nvm, I just checked, and they all have the chaotic subtype. In Manual of the Planes, they are mentioned as the iconic and exemplar race of chaos as well, in the Limbo description.

Geiger, you might want to actually do your homework before making an argument as to the nature of planar affairs and creatures, simply because the D&D cosmology is very clear about these things. :smallwink: Oh, and cause planar stuff is FUN to work with, read about, and play around with.

Simply slapping on the chaotic subtype on a creature without useful flavor text is never a good idea. The major trait of slaad is that they kill things and turn them into big frogs, does that sound like that has anything to do with the barbarian who is a being a pure rage or the bard who draws power from free expression. I actually plan on making a decent race of chaotic outsiders in the near future.

Or just breifly on the slaad lords, entropy doesn't have anything to do with chaos, the whole death of the elements thing belongs more to the negative planes, entropy itself sounds more like a lawful inevitable process. Insanity itself is not inherently chaotic, OCD sounds more lawful, and sociopathy sounds more evil. If colour is chaotic than shouldn't the prismatic spells gain the chaotic subtype? Which I think might not be a bad idea.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 07:20 PM
I'm not a fan of inevitables in general. They rest on a misunderstanding caused by ambiguity in the English language. A law in the sense of "Do/don't do this" is not the same thing as a law of the universe. One is set up deliberately, the other is an observed pattern or descriptor of how the universe operates. You can't break the second type of law, you produce a counterexample showing that it wasn't a law or that it only worked to a loose approximation. If you have a created universe, then you can have your creator(s) dictate laws of the second type. But if they do so, then any way around those laws are just part of how the universe operates. In order to have law breaking you would need something like a creator making a universe where something was possible but then have a divinely ordained rule not to do that thing. But inevitables don't care about that sort of rule, and by official D&D fluff if there is any sort of creator of the universe at that back level they have at least 20 divine ranks and simply don't care much about what the little guys do.

Kirgoth
2010-03-18, 07:29 PM
Mind switching into the body of an inevitable would be a fun way to gain immortality.

boomwolf
2010-03-18, 07:40 PM
Mind switching into the body of an inevitable would be a fun way to gain immortality.

That would probably send the ENTIRE inevtable race after you.


BTW-evil have the most mindless servants, because he does not mind constructs, he accepts undead and he has no problem with mind-controlling others to do it's bidding.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-18, 07:49 PM
I'm not a fan of inevitables in general. They rest on a misunderstanding caused by ambiguity in the English language. A law in the sense of "Do/don't do this" is not the same thing as a law of the universe. One is set up deliberately, the other is an observed pattern or descriptor of how the universe operates. You can't break the second type of law, you produce a counterexample showing that it wasn't a law or that it only worked to a loose approximation.
[...]
In order to have law breaking you would need something like a creator making a universe where something was possible but then have a divinely ordained rule not to do that thing. But inevitables don't care about that sort of rule

It's not the second kind of law that's being broken, though; "don't avoid death if your race isn't already immortal" is one of the divinely ordained rules not to break, and when you try to get around it (with e.g. lichdom) they come after you. All of the inevitables enforce laws of that sort--breaking oaths, avoiding death, fleeing justice, overthrowing gods, creating temporal rifts/paradoxes, and whatever the Sandstorm one does are all things you are perfectly capable of doing but they'd rather you didn't.

senrath
2010-03-18, 07:51 PM
It's not the second kind of law that's being broken, though; "don't avoid death if your race isn't already immortal" is one of the divinely ordained rules not to break, and when you try to get around it (with e.g. lichdom) they come after you. All of the inevitables enforce laws of that sort--breaking oaths, avoiding death, fleeing justice, overthrowing gods, creating temporal rifts/paradoxes, and whatever the Sandstorm one does are all things you are perfectly capable of doing but they'd rather you didn't.

The Sandstorm one represents "the inevitability of the wastes", and will hunt down people who try and bring life into a wasteland. Even if said wasteland was created magically. They're a pretty stupid idea.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-18, 07:53 PM
The Sandstorm one represents "the inevitability of the wastes", and will hunt down people who try and bring life into a wasteland. Even if said wasteland was created magically. They're a pretty stupid idea.

Pretty stupid, but it's still an example of "things you can do but we don't like" rather than "things that are physically impossible."

Volkov
2010-03-18, 07:55 PM
Mind switching into the body of an inevitable would be a fun way to gain immortality.

Have fun fighting a max hit dice Marut with many levels in cleric.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 08:04 PM
It's not the second kind of law that's being broken, though; "don't avoid death if your race isn't already immortal" is one of the divinely ordained rules not to break, and when you try to get around it (with e.g. lichdom) they come after you. All of the inevitables enforce laws of that sort--breaking oaths, avoiding death, fleeing justice, overthrowing gods, creating temporal rifts/paradoxes, and whatever the Sandstorm one does are all things you are perfectly capable of doing but they'd rather you didn't.

Divinely ordained by whom? The inevitables themselves? Presumably if this were necessary the creator deity could have just made a set or rules that prevented this from happening. Unless one sees a creator deity as giving some set of moral commandments for beings to have a choice about this doesn't make any sense. If it did so, why are the inevitables going after such people? Your response is an admirable attempt to repair the fluff, but it seems clear that by the official wording there is a real confusion (possibly deliberate) in their fluff.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-18, 08:08 PM
Divinely ordained by whom? The inevitables themselves?

Yup. The inevitables have decided that these are bad, chaotic things to do, and gosh darn it, they're going to punish people who try! :smallwink: I mean, the inevitables don't really work for anyone or anything except their own hazy concept of Perfect Law, so whatever they decide is important they can go after; I used the phrase "divinely ordained" to parallel your phrasing, in opposition to "fundamental law of the universe," not necessarily because there's a divine being ordering inevitables around.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 08:08 PM
Divinely ordained by whom? The inevitables themselves? Presumably if this were necessary the creator deity could have just made a set or rules that prevented this from happening. Unless one sees a creator deity as giving some set of moral commandments for beings to have a choice about this doesn't make any sense. If it did so, why are the inevitables going after such people? Your response is an admirable attempt to repair the fluff, but it seems clear that by the official wording there is a real confusion (possibly deliberate) in their fluff.

My bet is that the rules were made by some gigantic Velekhut.

senrath
2010-03-18, 08:12 PM
The rules were more likely created by the Modrons and the first Primus.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 08:15 PM
The rules were more likely created by the Modrons and the first Primus.

Primus was a fool, he got pwnt by Tenebrous, had he actually been competent enough to make the inevitables who are far more successful than his mordons, he would have seen the last word coming.

senrath
2010-03-18, 08:19 PM
Primus was a fool, he got pwnt by Tenebrous, had he actually been competent enough to make the inevitables who are far more successful than his mordons, he would have seen the last word coming.

Primus is a title, not a name. The Primus is just the highest ranking Modron, and there's definitely been more than one.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-18, 08:21 PM
Primus was a fool, he got pwnt by Tenebrous, had he actually been competent enough to make the inevitables who are far more successful than his mordons, he would have seen the last word coming.

Was Primus such a fool, or was Tenebrous just that good? I mean, even if you see the Last Word coming there's not much you can do to protect yourself from it; the adventurers who eventually stopped him most likely were able to do so just because they were PCs.

Plus, it's possible that he made the rules and something else made the inevitables to enforce them, having seen the weakness in the modrons and determining that something else had to be made in their stead.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 08:22 PM
Primus is a title, not a name. The Primus is just the highest ranking Modron, and there's definitely been more than one.

It had been the same one for millenia, until Tenebrous came and killed him.

Khatoblepas
2010-03-18, 08:35 PM
Inevitables don't war against Abberations as a whole since they don't bring more chaos into the world. At a multiversal level, there are plenty of native abberations that don't come from the Far Realm.

And being servants for Mechanus, the only omniscient being there...

"Primus’s sole concern is for the modrons. It does not
send avatars to other planes or even take part in the normal
bickering and wars that occupy the other planar
powers. Though it does use the Orrery to keep track of
events on other planes, it rarely interferes unless it sees
a direct threat. It devotes most of its energy to perfecting
and protecting Regulus and its inhabitants."

... doesn't care about people breaking universal laws somewhere else in the universe, it is inefficient to send out the Inevitables when there is a bigger plan, a bigger law to uphold. It seems the Current Primus sees cheating death, breaking contracts, and fleeing justice as violations of Absolute Law (All things must come to an end), but there are many breakages of absolute law in the multiverse. Limbo, for example, that (For (3) {printf (Malfunctioning)}) place.

Why waste resources when you could save your Inevitables for bigger threats? An immortal with chaos and domination on their mind is of more concern to them than a benign immortal. A lawful spellcaster who worships Mechanus could summon an Inevitable and send it to destroy someone who stands inbetween them and progressing towards Absolute Law. A Mercykiller Cleric of Primus, for example, might contract a Zelekhut to aid them in bringing a notorious criminal to justice in the same way that an evil spellcaster would bind a fiend to aid them in their evil schemes or a paladin petitioning an Angel to help them destroy an evil necromancer. A Xaotisect cleric might bring in a slaad to raise chaos, but they sure as hell aren't going to come themselves. These outsiders don't generally help people without being told to first.

In all, Mechanus isn't watching for the relatively small stuff. Mechanus is working. You can contract work from Mechanus, wait 6-8 working rounds for delivery and negotiation, and have a servant of law. Inevitables are just incredibly specialised because Law wants The Job Done. The Right Tool for the Right Job. Form 3B-A in Triplicate. It's no use sending a Marut to do a Zelekhut's job, since apprehending criminals isn't what a Marut does. You couldn't ask Word to do the job of Photoshop. You couldn't ask a sewing machine to wash your laundry. Nor does a sewing machine seek out cloth to sew itself. Without direct word from Primus, or a proxy who has filled out the proper protocol (a cleric casting a spell), sewing cloth is strictly forbidden under the Regulus Code, since reckless sewing costs law.

It Just Isn't Logical.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 08:36 PM
Inevitables don't war against Abberations as a whole since they don't bring more chaos into the world. At a multiversal level, there are plenty of native abberations that don't come from the Far Realm.

And being servants for Mechanus, the only omniscient being there...

"Primus’s sole concern is for the modrons. It does not
send avatars to other planes or even take part in the normal
bickering and wars that occupy the other planar
powers. Though it does use the Orrery to keep track of
events on other planes, it rarely interferes unless it sees
a direct threat. It devotes most of its energy to perfecting
and protecting Regulus and its inhabitants."

... doesn't care about people breaking universal laws somewhere else in the universe, it is inefficient to send out the Inevitables when there is a bigger plan, a bigger law to uphold. It seems the Current Primus sees cheating death, breaking contracts, and fleeing justice as violations of Absolute Law (All things must come to an end), but there are many breakages of absolute law in the multiverse. Limbo, for example, that (For (3) {printf (Malfunctioning)}) place.

Why waste resources when you could save your Inevitables for bigger threats? An immortal with chaos and domination on their mind is of more concern to them than a benign immortal. A lawful spellcaster who worships Mechanus could summon an Inevitable and send it to destroy someone who stands inbetween them and progressing towards Absolute Law. A Mercykiller Cleric of Primus, for example, might contract a Zelekhut to aid them in bringing a notorious criminal to justice in the same way that an evil spellcaster would bind a fiend to aid them in their evil schemes or a paladin petitioning an Angel to help them destroy an evil necromancer. A Xaotisect cleric might bring in a slaad to raise chaos, but they sure as hell aren't going to come themselves. These outsiders don't generally help people without being told to first.

In all, Mechanus isn't watching for the relatively small stuff. Mechanus is working. You can contract work from Mechanus, wait 6-8 working rounds for delivery and negotiation, and have a servant of law. Inevitables are just incredibly specialised because Law wants The Job Done. The Right Tool for the Right Job. Form 3B-A in Triplicate. It's no use sending a Marut to do a Zelekhut's job, since apprehending criminals isn't what a Marut does. You couldn't ask Word to do the job of Photoshop. You couldn't ask a sewing machine to wash your laundry.

It Just Isn't Logical.

Omniscient? If he had been omniscient he would have tried harder to avoid Tenebrous's word o' doom.

Khatoblepas
2010-03-18, 08:41 PM
Omniscient? If he had been omniscient he would have tried harder to avoid Tenebrous's word o' doom.

Who said he didn't calculate that his time was up anyway? A new Primus could calculate in a slightly different way, bringing a new perspective to law?

After all, stagnating law leads to entropy. Law must adapt to the situation, or chaos could come in through the loopholes and destroy the fabric of creation.

Primus isn't REALLY omniscient anyway, his worldview is really restricted. And gods can get killed by "gods" because it's an adventure hook. Duh.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 08:43 PM
Who said he didn't calculate that his time was up anyway? A new Primus could calculate in a slightly different way, bringing a new perspective to law?

After all, stagnating law leads to entropy. Law must adapt to the situation, or chaos could come in through the loopholes and destroy the fabric of creation.

Primus isn't REALLY omniscient anyway, his worldview is really restricted. And gods can get killed by "gods" because it's an adventure hook. Duh.

Tenebrous was the second closest to bringing an end to the reality of greyhawk among Greyhawk's pantheon of badass deities, Vecna only beat him out because Vecna altered reality on such a scale it forced an edition change. Surely Primus would have ordered billions of mordons, inevitables, and formians to attack Tenebrous. (Not that it would have helped, anyone without earshot of tenebrous was as good as dead.)

boomwolf
2010-03-18, 08:46 PM
Plus, it does not help you fill the MM if one could do it all. :P

Seriously. its not that "X are doing Y", is that "Things that do Y eventually became X"

Every inevitable had a job. the ones who did it well remained, the ones who didn't likely got themselves killed, or transferred into another section.

The ones who did exceptionally well also did not remain, their extreme ability is better used elsewhere much chaos is around and it tends to spread, there is a lot of work and you can't keep your dragonslayers chasing escaping pickpockets.

Seriously. these are MACHINES. the path taken is the one who they believe most effective. there is no emotion involved, nothing but pure cost/gain consideration, where law is the currency. they are like munchkins.



Something to consider: Primus might have forseen his own death and deemed it will eventually lead the multiverse closer to absolute law then it is right now, or that avoiding it will cause chaos.
He might have had the last laugh BY letting himself die.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-18, 08:47 PM
Vecna altered reality on such a scale it forced an edition change.

"Vecna's loose in Sigil! Quick, Primus, the only way to stop him is to bankrupt TSR!"

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-18, 08:47 PM
I suppose all this stuff concerning tenebrus, primus (and vecna) happened in modules that predate my time as a gamer (started playinga bout 3-4 years ago), but I am hopping I can get them as a novel?

Khatoblepas
2010-03-18, 08:49 PM
Tenebrous was the second closest to bringing an end to the reality of greyhawk among Greyhawk's pantheon of badass deities, Vecna only beat him out because Vecna altered reality on such a scale it forced an edition change. Surely Primus would have ordered billions of mordons, inevitables, and formians to attack Tenebrous. (Not that it would have helped, anyone without earshot of tenebrous was as good as dead.)

This is why. It is a waste of resources. On a grand, cosmic scale, it is more logical to minimize losses and inevitably in the setting of planescape there is going to be a group of adventurers which will bring order to this temporary chaos. Massing a suicide charge against a stronger foe who could wipe out anything within earshot is similar to what commanders did in WWI. It's irrational, illogical, and not something Primus could do. A secundus will eventually take Primus' place and order will be restored.

Don't think in such small terms. He had a plan.

At that time, Mechanus was having technical difficulties. It had to fix the chaos gumming up the works.


I suppose all this stuff concerning tenebrus, primus (and vecna) happened in modules that predate my time as a gamer (started playinga bout 3-4 years ago), but I am hopping I can get them as a novel?

This is from The Great Modron March and Die Vecna Die(?), planescape modules from years and years ago. I'm not sure whether someone made a novel out of this.

Fishy
2010-03-18, 09:37 PM
So... I guess I don't really understand Aberrations. What's so cosmically, universe-offending wrong about parasites with tentacles who screw with other creature's brains as part of their reproductive cycle? We have those on Earth (though not on the same creature). Most of them are nice enough to obey the laws of biology.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 10:00 PM
So... I guess I don't really understand Aberrations. What's so cosmically, universe-offending wrong about parasites with tentacles who screw with other creature's brains as part of their reproductive cycle? We have those on Earth (though not on the same creature). Most of them are nice enough to obey the laws of biology.

Illithid exist outside of the time line: how is that normal?

Aboleth's existed before the gods if you can believe them.
Tentacles on land animals are offensive in D&D (unless you are a Displacer beast).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-18, 11:29 PM
So... I guess I don't really understand Aberrations. What's so cosmically, universe-offending wrong about parasites with tentacles who screw with other creature's brains as part of their reproductive cycle? We have those on Earth (though not on the same creature). Most of them are nice enough to obey the laws of biology.

Because of the whole Far Realms connection that they kinda-sorta have in some interpretations, and the illithid affinity for time paradoxes. That's about it.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-18, 11:46 PM
Also, according to the eberron campaign setting Illithids are capable of building non-euclidian architecture.

Ormur
2010-03-19, 04:53 AM
Also, according to the eberron campaign setting Illithids are capable of building non-euclidian architecture.

Too bad there are no inevitables of topography.

And wow if I ever play in an Eberron campaign I'm going to hire Illithids to build be a M.C. Escher castle.

Eldan
2010-03-19, 04:54 AM
Wasn't there an inevitable of time? That one should take care of the Illithid anyway.

lord_khaine
2010-03-19, 05:18 AM
Wasn't there an inevitable of time? That one should take care of the Illithid anyway.

But the temporal crime was will be made by a group of elder brains in the far future, the illithids have nothing to do with that.

Eldan
2010-03-19, 05:54 AM
Hmm. Call the organization from Minority report, because they'll commit a crime in the future?

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:55 AM
Wasn't there an inevitable of time? That one should take care of the Illithid anyway.

They are called the Quaruts and they look really damned cool.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-19, 11:24 AM
But the temporal crime was will be made by a group of elder brains in the far future, the illithids have nothing to do with that.

Except the bit where the illithids are creating a stable time paradox by directly seeding their own ancestors into the human population, thereby assuring that their future empire one-day comes to be?

Also, Elder Brains are pretty much a way for 'something' to acheive immortality by unnatural means. Every single one of them is an abominable crime against the nature law of death.

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 12:12 PM
Except the bit where the illithids are creating a stable time paradox by directly seeding their own ancestors into the human population, thereby assuring that their future empire one-day comes to be?

That sounds like the timeline trying to repair itself to me; not something a Quarut would mess with. If the Illithids don't implant people, they won't exist to come back in time and implant people etc.


Also, Elder Brains are pretty much a way for 'something' to acheive immortality by unnatural means. Every single one of them is an abominable crime against the nature law of death.

The trouble is that they hate liches (i.e. alhoons) every bit as much as Maruts do. It seems strange that they would be opposed.

FMArthur
2010-03-19, 12:38 PM
The Inevitables aren't all-powerful. Elder Brains with large Mind Flayer societies could probably take them on and win. It's not unreasonable to assume that Inevitables really are a constant threat to Mind Flayer society - possibly the only one, barring meddling adventurers. Remember that Mind Flayers keep legions of slaves and are more likely to advance by class than Mechanus's constructs.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-19, 01:33 PM
So, what your saying is that reversing cause and effect, as well as completely messing with the timeline, is pretty much okay?

Also that the Inevitables basically lack the capability to deal with anything other than adventurers?

Sounds pretty much like;


Everybody knows that the real reason is that Inevitables don't care about anything but what the PC's are doing. They are basically a license for the DM to screw with his players for doing things that the DM's BBEG does unhindered.

Is still very much and succinctly the case. :smallwink:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 01:34 PM
Considering there's very few of the Inevitables, in comparison to all of the Abberations (Beholders, Illithid, and Aboleths to name the "Big 3"), the Inevitables' would be suicidal trying to obliterate them all, especially considering the possibility of an Elder Mindwitness (Elderbrain/Beholder) [aka: Mother Brain]

JoshuaZ
2010-03-19, 01:54 PM
Considering there's very few of the Inevitables, in comparison to all of the Abberations (Beholders, Illithid, and Aboleths to name the "Big 3"), the Inevitables' would be suicidal trying to obliterate them all, especially considering the possibility of an Elder Mindwitness (Elderbrain/Beholder) [aka: Mother Brain]

Where are Elder Mindwitnesses from? IIRC A Mindwitness itself is just applying the half-Illithid to a beholder. Don't know how you make that into an Elder Brain form.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 01:56 PM
Where are Elder Mindwitnesses from? IIRC A Mindwitness itself is just applying the half-Illithid to a beholder. Don't know how you make that into an Elder Brain form.

There was a 'Half-Beholder" template floating around somwhere

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 01:58 PM
Considering there's very few of the Inevitables, in comparison to all of the Abberations (Beholders, Illithid, and Aboleths to name the "Big 3"), the Inevitables' would be suicidal trying to obliterate them all, especially considering the possibility of an Elder Mindwitness (Elderbrain/Beholder) [aka: Mother Brain]

In addition, trying would expend their resources to the point that they would be easy pickings for the Slaadi.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 02:00 PM
In addition, trying would expend their resources to the point that they would be easy pickings for the Slaadi.

sorry... "Big 4"

Mind Flayers
Beholders
Aboleths
Sladdi

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 02:01 PM
sorry... "Big 4"

Mind Flayers
Beholders
Aboleths
Sladdi

You were right the first time - Slaad are Outsiders rather than Aberrations :smallsmile:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-19, 02:01 PM
You were right the first time - Slaad are Outsiders rather than Aberrations :smallsmile:

duh. I thought they were too ;3

Eldan
2010-03-19, 02:54 PM
Nah, they are the incarnations of chaos. Of course, since about 3.0 they have been much more randomly evil than chaotic, really.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 03:04 PM
Only evil they wrought is the whole rape infection turns you into one of them.
Not sure they'd be all that evil otherwise.

Eldan
2010-03-19, 03:22 PM
Edit: Wrong thread.

What I meant to post: they are often shown as randomly destructive, though, blowing up stuff and attacking people for the fun of it. I miss Xanxost.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 03:26 PM
Depends... they like to extort huge prices from stranded travellers. But that's also not really evil.

And you turn into one of them? Really? Huh. That goes against the entire program of 'loth evolution... did the old ones have that as well? I forgot.

I meant the Slaad :smallbiggrin:
That is how they create more (they make different colors based on arcane caster/non-arcane).
I'd show SRD, but they are WotC only products.

Eldan
2010-03-19, 03:27 PM
Yeah, I edited the above post. I got confused between this thread and the Tome of Horrors thread. There the discussion was about the update of Yugoloths.

boomwolf
2010-03-19, 03:31 PM
But the temporal crime was will be made by a group of elder brains in the far future, the illithids have nothing to do with that.

Not to mention they did it to escape an UNKNOWN enemy that wanted to annihilate them and came pretty damn close.

Could be the inevitables.

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 03:36 PM
Not to mention they did it to escape an UNKNOWN enemy that wanted to annihilate them and came pretty damn close.

Could be the inevitables.

That would be a hilarious twist :smallbiggrin:

The inevitables came after them to keep them from violating causality and messing with the timeline, causing them to violate causality by messing with the timeline to escape, which leads to the inevitables coming after them...

Eldan
2010-03-19, 04:16 PM
I still think Ethergaunts make the most likely multiversal threat for the mindflayers. Not many other races are more intelligent than the Illithid, after all.

Also, they had a great article written about them. But that's not the point.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 05:58 PM
Considering there's very few of the Inevitables, in comparison to all of the Abberations (Beholders, Illithid, and Aboleths to name the "Big 3"), the Inevitables' would be suicidal trying to obliterate them all, especially considering the possibility of an Elder Mindwitness (Elderbrain/Beholder) [aka: Mother Brain]

Very few? The Inevitables number in the millions at the least with more being churned out to deal with every major violation of the rules. (or to more adequetely defend deities in the case of the Velekhuts)

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:01 PM
I still think Ethergaunts make the most likely multiversal threat for the mindflayers. Not many other races are more intelligent than the Illithid, after all.

Also, they had a great article written about them. But that's not the point.

Perhaps the Ethergaunts are just biding their time to attack, it's just that it took so long that the only thing left was the resurgent Illithid empire. Ethergaunts appear to be biologically immortal and even their lowest members, the Red Ethergaunts, are brighter than Ultralithids on average.