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SethFahad
2010-03-18, 04:13 AM
Just a public opinion poll...

Best and most usefull Magic school?
Worse and "first-to-dump" school?
First school to specialize?
Best meta-friendly school?

Explain why.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-18, 04:25 AM
Conjuration/Transmutation are considered the best and often specialized in


Evocation/Enchantment are usually dropped first


Divination sucks, but the Spontaneous Divination ability is pretty awesome

BobVosh
2010-03-18, 04:35 AM
Standard best in class: Conjuration/transmutation. I like Conj more, but both are powerful.
Least bang for buck: Evocation. Anything it can do, conj can do better. Or you can replicate in Illusion. Enchant is the second most common drop.
First school to specialize? Conj, trans, or divination(only lose one school)
Best meta-friendly school? Conjuration or evocation. That is wizards, at least. Transmutation is my favorite meta for CoDZilla.

*edit* As for why:
Conjuration/transmutation have the best spells in terms of versatility. Versatility is power in D&D when it comes to vancian.
First school: the better the school, the more you want of em.
Meta-friendly: They help all schools fairly equally, but better spells = better for metamagic.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-18, 04:36 AM
Divination is great. What are you talking about? Sure, there aren't as many directly useful spells in combat, but preparing the correct spells for the day in all your other slots is just as useful (if not more so).

I'd say divination/transmutation. Conjuration is still quite good, but I think the other two schools edge it out.

BobVosh
2010-03-18, 04:47 AM
Divination is powerful, but I find I don't use more than 1/SL. Sometimes not even that many. However each level I tend to have 1 or 2 of conj and trans. More over some summons can replicate any other spell, especially if they are a spell casting summon.

As for sheer versatility conjuration has a lot more than divination. That said divination is extremely rewarding to spec in as you only give up one school.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-18, 04:49 AM
Actually responding to the guy above you, but whatever.

I just really like having the GM's notes.

BobVosh
2010-03-18, 04:53 AM
My apologies. My DM has added an epic sleight of hand check for that though. DC 80 and he will hand over his notes.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:08 AM
Divination is great. What are you talking about? Sure, there aren't as many directly useful spells in combat, but preparing the correct spells for the day in all your other slots is just as useful (if not more so).
This really depends on the DM, some gives a useless rhime... others let you have a X "divined slots" you may spontaneously prepare later on, on the assumption that your character "divined" the future and prepared the "right spell" in the morning, just you the player don't know which spell it is until you actually need it.

But it still overlooks some of the most important spells in the game which aren't about predicting the future.
Assay Spell Resistance (p17 of the spell compendium) - 1 swift action to cast (its quickened by default) and you get a +10 to spell penetration against a specific creature for 1 round/level.
Truestrike - gives you +20 to your next attack roll if made on this or next round. 1st level slot, so you can quicken it... or you can combine it with assay resistance on round 1 to ensure you annihilate the enemy on round 2.
The two of those combined allow you to cast spells that are "bypass SR and make a touch attack and win, no save". Well, with those two you are virtually guaranteed to make both... it becomes a "don't roll a nat 1 and win".
At spell level 9 there is also foresight. which makes you immune to surprise / flatfooted. which means any assassination attempt against you fail, you just teleport away before they reach you, summon a solar, and send it to kill them.


I'd say divination/transmutation. Conjuration is still quite good, but I think the other two schools edge it out.
I agree on that.

Also, let me second the "evocation is worst" followed by "enchantment". You should be a focused specialist though, those sacrifice 3 spell schools and 1 general spell slot to get 3 slots dedicated to specialized school (so, a generalist level 7 wizard has 4+int bonus SL1 slots, a focused specialist has 3+int bonus general slots +3 specialty school only slots). This makes you capable of casting more spells per day than the sorcerer! (of highest level spells, the sorcerer passes you for a level and then you catch up and you have equal spells per day of a specific level; but your highest level spells? oyu have more then him).
But it also means you need to give up a third school. your options are necromancy, illusion and abjuration. of those three necromancy has some of the most effective "I win" spells, illusion some of the best defenses against damage, and abjuration obviously defenses against spells. So I would dump necromancy... I can still win battles with conjuration and transmutation, and I am not willing to sacrifice my defenses (and survivability) to have slightly better RAW spells to work with (I call them RAW spells because to win you need to unbalance them with other spells, or with metamagic, preferably via daily use items like rods. you might need to stack one extra metamagic feat on spell X than spell Y before its a guaranteed win, but you can do so at your leisure)

A note about evocation and enchantment being worst:
Conjuration has superior blasting to evocation, blasting is non ideal anyways, but with some metamagic and charop in general it can be made into "i win".
Enchantment is completely and utterly nullified by various spells by the time it becomes relevant... and any IMPORTANT NPC will have access to those spells (you expect a kind not to?) and any cleric automatically gets access to those protection spells... !!HOWEVER!! you must actually bother to make such defenses. If you or your allies are unprotected against enchantment it can be a more effective I win then other schools. The biggest examples are the feeblemind spell or mind controlling the tank (TPK in a can)

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 05:30 AM
Best: transmutation or conjuration, according to taste. First school to specialize, ditto.

Worst: abjuration or enchantment. Yes, yes, and evocation.

Meta-friendly, I have no idea what you mean by that.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:34 AM
Best: transmutation or conjuration, according to taste. First school to specialize, ditto.

Worst: abjuration or enchantment. Yes, yes, and evocation.

Meta-friendly, I have no idea what you mean by that.

you don't like dispel, spell turning, spell mantle, and prismatic sphere? (a lot of good abjurations are sadly cleric only...)
does your wizard never fight other wizards?

IthilanorStPete
2010-03-18, 05:34 AM
Enchantment is very very good at low levels though. Sure, you have to deal with Undead and Constructs and what not, but it's a lot of powerful SoD's before everyone and their mother has immunity to mind-affecting.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 05:36 AM
I think by "Meta-friendly" he means "best to combine with metamagic."

Which would probably be conjuration again (orbs, transportation.)

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:36 AM
Enchantment is very very good at low levels though. Sure, you have to deal with Undead and Constructs and what not, but it's a lot of powerful SoD's before everyone and their mother has immunity to mind-affecting.

and if you manage to come across a high level enemy who DOESN'T have immunity to mind affecting its even better :)
but that sort of immunity is just so damn common even in middling levels that its just too risky an investment...

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:37 AM
I think by "Meta-friendly" he means "best to combine with metamagic."

Which would probably be conjuration again (orbs, transportation.)

necromancy followed by conjurations followed by evocation followed by transmutation.
but its not enough to be meta friendly to be the best.

Deca
2010-03-18, 05:37 AM
Best: transmutation or conjuration, according to taste. First school to specialize, ditto.

Worst: abjuration or enchantment. Yes, yes, and evocation.

Meta-friendly, I have no idea what you mean by that.

What's wrong with abjuration?

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 05:41 AM
I stack up Evocation and Enchantment thusly:

Enchantment only ever targets one save (Will.) Evocation targets all three (Reflex primarily; Fort for cold-based attacks, and Fort/Will for Sonic.)

So to me, Evocation is more versatile, thus I drop Enchantment first.

Also, if you're up against a weak-willed, mind-affecting vulnerable enemy, Illusion works every bit as well as enchantment.


What's wrong with abjuration?

It is often considered as a dump school for focused specialists because the most useful effects can be cast by the cleric instead, especially a Divine Magician cleric.

IthilanorStPete
2010-03-18, 05:43 AM
What's wrong with abjuration?

There's only a couple of really useful spells, which tend to be able to cast by a Cleric anyways.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 05:45 AM
What's wrong with abjuration?
That you can safely drop it as a specialist, as long as you have a cleric, druid or warlock in the party that can cast Dispel Magic. Anything else in the school, you can do without.

This provides a nice alternative drop for specialists who like enchantment or evocation, as well as a possible third drop for Focused Specialist.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:51 AM
the assumption is that you have a cleric friend you can bum abjurations off of... you are the party's GOD (heh, ironic); the cleric would be buffing HIMSELF, followed by the fighters and monks and the like, not you; you are the last one on the "to buff" list. Plus the best ones are "self only"... and he has a limited amount of spells per day, and you can't trust him to properly optimize... all of those are reason why you shouldn't ban abjuration.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 05:53 AM
This provides a nice alternative drop for specialists who like enchantment or evocation
Definitely a big NO on that one... dropping abjuration and keeping evocation/enchantment is INSANITY.


as well as a possible third drop for Focused Specialist.
That is more accurate. but it still assumes the cleric is going to bother buffing you... you still have other less important schools you can drop.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 06:16 AM
Definitely a big NO on that one... dropping abjuration and keeping evocation/enchantment is INSANITY.

THIS IS SPARTAAAA!

Oh wait, no, it's not. Looks to me like "not playing the absolute best build 3v4r" is not quite the same thing as "being insane".

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:28 AM
That is more accurate. but it still assumes the cleric is going to bother buffing you... you still have other less important schools you can drop.

You have exactly one besides Abjuration - Necromancy.
Illusion, Transmutation and Conjuration are too important, and you can't drop Divination.

cheezewizz2000
2010-03-18, 06:30 AM
I point you to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130743)

Eldariel
2010-03-18, 06:36 AM
Best and most usefull Magic school?

Conjuration or Transmutation. Conjuration does everything, Transmutation does slightly less everything but has stronger level 9s (Time Stop/Shapechange vs. Gate). Transmutation just gets you extra actions, insane buffs (numeric and otherwise), attacks against two saves, flight, etc.

Conjuration, on the other hand, has brutal attacks against every save, the ultimate in mobility (gl moving as fast as someone can teleport), various battlefield control effects with no save, oh, and the whole "Call Outsiders And Make 'Em My Dolls"-aspect. And Summons too. But those are the minor part.

Illusion is a third, but not quite up to the same level. It has very strong anti-will offense, some of the best defensive magic, some totally busted spells (Simulacrums & al.), ability to absolutely wreck mindless things, great mind**** tools, ways to keep yourself safe while casting and the ability to replicate some key spells like Contingency and Forcecage for free, etc. It just has slightly less versatile offensive suite and a bit less raw power and versatility than the other two.


Worse and "first-to-dump" school?

Enchantment is the first to dump; its abilities are incredibly redundant, mostly mind-affecting and eminently replaceable with another school outside Charm Person, which is handy but not worth investing an entire school into. Heroisms are cool too, but there are other sources of morale bonuses. Simply, enchantment has very little in ways of unique effects.

Evocation is the second, for much the same reason. There are more efficient ways to attack enemies and the few unique Evocation-effects can be replicated easily enough; no small thanks to Greater Shadow Evocation, either.

Necromancy is the third, but in Core especially, you shouldn't give up both, Evocation and Necromancy since they're the principal offensive schools. You need one or the other; not both, sure, but one of them. Necromancy has less replicable abilities and lots of no-save screw-em'-ups, which places it above Evocation in terms of strict power.

Abjuration is the fourth, mostly because you can live without most Abjuration-effects (and many of the better ones aren't on your list anyways), and if you have other casters, they can handle Dispelling, which is the only absolutely irreplaceable ability in Abjuration. If you're the only caster, this must stay.


First school to specialize?

Conjuration, due to Abrupt Jaunt. Divination isn't bad either; it's actually quite a powerful school and getting those free extra slots banning just one school can be key if you're low on casters in the party, or acting alone and thus need wider variety of talents.

And Transmutation is just as good as Conjuration, except it lacks the busted ACF and incredible Master Specialist progression. Illusionist has some very specific niché uses which mostly involve Shadowcraft Mage. As a general specialization, it isn't that amazing though.


Best meta-friendly school?

This is a silly question. Which meta are we talking about? What do you mean by "meta-friendly"? Orbs from Conjuration are nice spells to metamagic offensively, as are various energy drains of Necromancy, especially Enervation. Evocation has few great seed spells such as Combust. But this all applies to offensive metamagicking. Best spells for Quicken? Low-level efficient-later-on offense like Glitterdust and utility like Benign Transposition. Eh...so the answer is probably, regardless of what you're asking, Conjuration.

taltamir
2010-03-18, 06:50 AM
THIS IS SPARTAAAA!

Oh wait, no, it's not. Looks to me like "not playing the absolute best build 3v4r" is not quite the same thing as "being insane".

there is a difference between "not playing the best" and "playing the worst". Of course, the worst wizard is still a wizard :P... I am actually playing an evoker right now for an experiment... but nobody said "insanity" is banned from play :P

onthetown
2010-03-18, 07:31 AM
Enchantment is a keeper if you do everything you can to raise your spell DC - magic items aimed toward enchantment (I haven't found many), feats, INT raises, etc. Drop necromancy with good character, keep it and drop evocation with evil character. Better yet, drop both of them unless you want a necromancer.

Enchantment/necromancy is my favourite combo, though. I can never figure out what to drop so I end up being stupid and taking out abjuration.

Eldariel
2010-03-18, 07:51 AM
Enchantment is a keeper if you do everything you can to raise your spell DC - magic items aimed toward enchantment (I haven't found many), feats, INT raises, etc.

Even then, you could simply do the same with e.g. Illusion or Conjuration to much the same effect, hence why it's unnecessary. It's not a bad school per ce, it just simply offers the same stuff as other, more versatile schools. In other words, it's the easiest to give up as you lose very little.

Necromancy loses you much more, for example, and actually contains very little that deals with evil in any way.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 08:09 AM
Enchantment is a keeper if you do everything you can to raise your spell DC

No matter how unbeatable your DC gets, a 1st-level spell can still shut down half your school, while an 8th-level spell can shut down all of it. Focusing on Enchantment is a losing game.

Corey
2010-03-18, 08:21 AM
Conjuration has superior blasting to evocation, blasting is non ideal anyways, but with some metamagic and charop in general it can be made into "i win".


How so?




Enchantment is completely and utterly nullified by various spells by the time it becomes relevant... and any IMPORTANT NPC will have access to those spells (you expect a kind not to?) and any cleric automatically gets access to those protection spells... !!HOWEVER!! you must actually bother to make such defenses. If you or your allies are unprotected against enchantment it can be a more effective I win then other schools. The biggest examples are the feeblemind spell or mind controlling the tank (TPK in a can)

Any good ways to do so short of Mind Blank (or taking your Will saves sky high)?

Corey
2010-03-18, 08:27 AM
No matter how unbeatable your DC gets, a 1st-level spell can still shut down half your school,

Which one?

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 08:44 AM
Which one?

"Protection from X" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromevil.htm) automatically suppresses all Compulsions and Charms, regardless of alignment or level.

Corey
2010-03-18, 09:25 AM
"Protection from X" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromevil.htm) automatically suppresses all Compulsions and Charms, regardless of alignment or level.

Ack. You're right. Thanks.

That's what Dispel is for -- but there are many problems with relying on same.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:38 AM
Ack. You're right. Thanks.

That's what Dispel is for -- but there are many problems with relying on same.

The fact that you need a dispel to get a 9th-level spell past a 1st-level one is a serious deficiency with the school.

And if you can dispel, so can I - I can dispel your compulsion while it's inert, being held down and pimp-slapped by my level 1 abjuration.

It even mucks with EPIC SPELLS! That's right, hit me with Damnation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/damnation.htm) while I'm under Pro: Evil and, rather than stick around in hell for 20 hours, I can just Plane Shift back a round later.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 09:42 AM
The fact that you need a dispel to get a 9th-level spell past a 1st-level one is a serious deficiency with the school.

Sure, but this strikes me as one of those places where RAW technically says something, but realistically you'd be hard-pressed to find any DM that rules it that way. Similar to healing-by-drowning and monk-unarmed-weapon-proficiency, I'd wager that the vast majority of DMs houserules this sensibly without even realizing that they're houseruling anything.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:45 AM
Sure, but this strikes me as one of those places where RAW technically says something, but realistically you'd be hard-pressed to find any DM that rules it that way. Similar to healing-by-drowning and monk-unarmed-weapon-proficiency, I'd wager that the vast majority of DMs houserules this sensibly without even realizing that they're houseruling anything.

Why would a DM allow a Compulsion to break through a spell that specifically suppresses them? :smallconfused:

And clearly this is RAI, given that the same protection suppresses even epic magic.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-18, 09:50 AM
I doubt that. I've played in plenty of games where Protection from X had that effect.

Anyway, in a city-game instead of a dungeon-game, Enchantment becomes much better - fewer racial immunities to mind-affecting spells (constructs and undead being more uncommon), plenty of lower level characters nonetheless worth charming/dominating due to their influence or ability to go places you're not allowed, etc. Still, heavy use of Protection from X and/or Mind Blank by the DM can ruin an Enchanter's day.

Basically, 3.5 has far too many "no" effects.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 09:53 AM
Why would a DM allow a Compulsion to break through a spell that specifically suppresses them? :smallconfused:
Obviously, because a DM would not want a first level spell to obsolete an entire school of magic. You can't claim it's RAI either, unless you've got a quote somewhere from the game designers that yes, they did want epic magic from an entire school blocked by a common first level spell.

(and no, it doesn't block the Damnation spell either: it only might block the part where the victim believes that hell is his just reward, and even that is iffy by the wording of PFE)

Seriously now, most DMs would even be aware of this function of PFE in the first place, if it weren't for a small number of people repeatedly pointing this out on message boards. That is a clear indication that this is really not how most DMs would rule it. That means that enchantment in actual play is much more useful than enchantment as technically treated on theoretical charop boards.

(edit) Immunity to mind spells, or Mind Blank, as Dragoon suggests, are a different cup of tea, of course.

Godskook
2010-03-18, 09:57 AM
How so?

Orb of Fire/Sound/Force/Acid/X

onthetown
2010-03-18, 01:44 PM
No matter how unbeatable your DC gets, a 1st-level spell can still shut down half your school, while an 8th-level spell can shut down all of it. Focusing on Enchantment is a losing game.

I have a character that focuses on Enchantments. She kicks ass, often single-handedly when given the chance. It's why I'm such a fan of the school. Sure, Illusion and whatnot give the same effects, but the flavour is fun... Dark enchantress seductress ftw :smallamused:

Yukitsu
2010-03-18, 02:08 PM
Ranked conjuration, transmutation and illusion tied at second, necromancy, divination, abjuration, enchantment, evocation.

Best specializations are conjuration, divination then illusion.

Illusion is better to specialize with, because it's easier to make up lost schools with it when compared to transmutation, which while powerful, is not as capable of going across schools. Divination because there is usually one per level I would want, and because it's cheaper. Conjuration, because it can do nearly anything, and there is no such thing as too much of it at any level. Some levels of transmutation are comparatively dead.

First to drop when an illusionist is evocation, because you can do it all. Necromancy or enchantment make good secondary drops.

First drop as a conjurer is going to be evocation again, because you can do the best parts of it. The next is usually abjuration in my experience, followed by enchantment and necromancy. For synergy and calling, I'd drop evocation and necromancy. Planar bindings are best used with abjurations and enchantments.

A diviner should drop enchantments IMO. Obviously, evocation remains a good thing to pick on because other schools immitate it so much, but diviners can make best use of spells that require rolls, such as attacks. Enchantment is easier to negate than evocations, often by the same ones that block divinations, and don't gain any benefit from divinations.

Best meta depends entirely on which meta you're taking. With the meta effects that I take, illusion and conjuration are the best, because I aim to misbehave.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-18, 02:19 PM
"Protection from X" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromevil.htm) automatically suppresses all Compulsions and Charms, regardless of alignment or level.

NO it doesn't, it protects against charm and compulsion effects that grand the caster mental control. It it was a blanket charm and compulsion the second effect paragraph would be a lot shorter

Enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).
Not every compulsion just the mind controlling ones, which means plenty of compulsions still work.

Anyway
My gnome illusionist (going down the path of the Shadow Gnome Killer)

I picked enchantment and evocation as his prohibitedschools

First most every evocation effect that directly effects the target is subject to SR.
*I would note that while a shadow evocation spell is subject to SR even if the base spell is not, SR requires the spell be directly used against the target.
So in the future relying on by shadow magic to duplicate those effects are fine. Hell many of them will end up being over 100% real, the truth is more horrifying then the reality.

Enchantment also went good by as I figured, much of the school is dependent on will saves .I already have that going with illusions.

Hell with Shadow Weave user, greater spell focus and being a gnome, my illusion spells have a +4 DC. Phantasmal killer starts to look good for me doesn’t it.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 02:41 PM
Not every compulsion just the mind controlling ones, which means plenty of compulsions still work.

Like what? Which compulsion or charm effects don't control someone's mind? :smallconfused:


Obviously, because a DM would not want a first level spell to obsolete an entire school of magic.

That's an exaggeration. There are plenty of enchantments that are neither compulsions nor charms. The problem is that plenty of them ARE those things too.


(and no, it doesn't block the Damnation spell either: it only might block the part where the victim believes that hell is his just reward, and even that is iffy by the wording of PFE)

It absolutely does suppress that part of the spell, RAW, which means you are free to PS out of Hell when you arrive unless something prevents you from doing so.

Yukitsu
2010-03-18, 02:43 PM
Like what? Which compulsion or charm effects don't control someone's mind? :smallconfused:

Final rebuke, which just kills you.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 02:48 PM
Final rebuke, which just kills you.

That would be the Fear part, not the dazed/concentration check to cast Compulsion part.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 02:50 PM
Like what? Which compulsion or charm effects don't control someone's mind? :smallconfused:
The ones that don't grant ongoing control. For instance, Sleep.



It absolutely does suppress that part of the spell, RAW, which means you are free to PS out of Hell when you arrive unless something prevents you from doing so.
It's not actually ongoing control, though. It may be an ongoing effect, but it's not something the caster has any control over (viz. dominate, where the caster can change his commands every round if he wishes). The spell could have been worded better, but the intent of PFE appears to be to block new commands from a caster, not ongoing unchanging mental effects (because that's exactly what it did in earlier editions, too).

Yukitsu
2010-03-18, 02:50 PM
That would be the Fear part, not the dazed/concentration check to cast Compulsion part.

It's still a compulsion that doesn't influence your thinking. Dazed and can't cast straight aren't mind control of the sort that protection from X can influence either.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-18, 02:56 PM
Like what? Which compulsion or charm effects don't control someone's mind? :smallconfused:

It has to be on going control as like "go jump in a lake" not simply effect your mind.
Confusion and insanity for example don't let you control the target they simply go crazy.
Irresistible Dance doesn't grant you control over the target it just makes them dance.
Just because the compulsion MAKES the target do something does not mean the caster has any control over it other then picking the target of the spell.

Protection from alignment shields you from mental control not mental effects.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 03:00 PM
Fair enough, the description of "compulsion" seems to make a distinction beween "ongoing control" "determine subject's behavior once" and "random behavior."

But I think it's safe to say that all charms are out, and many of the compulsions in core are the "ongoing" variety. And finally, it still suppresses a 9th-level spell (Dominate Monster.)

And an 8th-level spell (Mind Blank) still shuts down the entire school, while four other schools (Necromancy, Illusion, sonic Evocations and teleporting Conjurations) target will. So my point stands - Enchantment is the weakest link.

Eldariel
2010-03-18, 03:03 PM
I have a character that focuses on Enchantments. She kicks ass, often single-handedly when given the chance. It's why I'm such a fan of the school. Sure, Illusion and whatnot give the same effects, but the flavour is fun... Dark enchantress seductress ftw :smallamused:

Oh, definitely. I love the role of an enchantress. However, as Talya (I recall) put it best, that just enhances my disdain for its relative mechanical weakness compared to other schools, or rather, lack of unique features, especially in a school like Enchantment where you could have so many.

Hell, just removing the Cha-check from Planar Bindings and the auto-control clause from Gate would make enchantment way better as you want Dominates to deal with those. Besides, Conjuration really doesn't need the help. And it should be a multischool effort to bind outsiders anyways (well, it is already with Abjuration+Conjuration, but Enchantment being a part of that wouldn't hurt at all).

Yukitsu
2010-03-18, 03:07 PM
Fair enough, the description of "compulsion" seems to make a distinction beween "ongoing control" "determine subject's behavior once" and "random behavior."

But I think it's safe to say that all charms are out, and many of the compulsions in core are the "ongoing" variety. And finally, it still suppresses a 9th-level spell (Dominate Monster.)

And an 8th-level spell (Mind Blank) still shuts down the entire school, while four other schools (Necromancy, Illusion, sonic Evocations and teleporting Conjurations) target will. So my point stands - Enchantment is the weakest link.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Enchantment takes some forsight to use properly, as you do not use it to defeat the DM's big bads, you use it to capture and manipulate other people to help you face down those big bads with more resources than you could otherwise have. Dominate is superior in this regard, to simulacrum, which while easier to use, is weaker and far more expensive, and it's superior to planar bindings, because it carries a little less risk, and can add things other than outsiders to your team.

As well, very few people have mind blank. It's a high level spell, difficult to justify on every encounter. When it is there, if dispelled, you can add someone that casts 8th levels to your party potentially. More realistically, it's not as though you must use enchantments on the boss, but rather should on some brute minion you encounter on the way.

A far weaker school is still evocation, as unlike enchantment, the entire school of enchantment can be emulated by other schools. Enchantment may not uniquely target will, which is considered its best strength, but it does uniquely allow you to gain control and victory without killing enemies, and as opposed to simply eliminating threats, you gain power by winning. Only necromancy can boast similar, but necromancy loses a great deal of utility from those taken.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 03:27 PM
While I agree that Mind Blank is very problematic for enchantment (and for beguilers), it should not come up before level 15. Given that according to every statistic I've seen, the vast majority of campaigns never get to level 15 in the first place, this should not be such a great problem in practice.

A bigger problem in practice is campaigns that are heavy on undead. Can't mind control a zombie, now can you?

Yukitsu
2010-03-18, 03:33 PM
Yes, an enchanter is best off domming some hammer and sword armed paladins and clerics, or some tough animals to drag into the depths of those places with him, rather than casting on the undead.

Nidogg
2010-03-18, 03:49 PM
Best: conj/ illusion
Why? Summoning+ create anything you need/ Create anything conceviable by your immagination. Also kill people by showing them their worst fears. Now tell me thats not FUN?

Worst:Uni/evoke
Why useless splells or xp cost? why take wish?/ effects are SERIOUSLY limited, most dont last, a summoned monster will last 1+turn wheras an entire Meteor swarm can be Cured in a single turn.

Meta freindly:Conj/ enchantment- Extend, maximise and empower= long lasting, +lots of Summoned monsters/ Tell me a charm/ dominate heightened to 9nth with all the saving implications will not kick preposterous amounts of behind.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-18, 04:08 PM
Universal is not a school.

Nidogg
2010-03-18, 04:13 PM
... shh.... I couldnt think of another bad school.

Eldariel
2010-03-18, 04:34 PM
... shh.... I couldnt think of another bad school.

Enchantment?

Darth Stabber
2010-03-18, 05:19 PM
There need to be more ench spells like Heroism (and its greater version) for me to consider the school good.

krossbow
2010-03-18, 05:43 PM
The problem with enchantment is that they realized that not giving a way to protect against it would make it incredibly broken; they over erred there and made it easy to become outright immune to it.

Slayn82
2010-03-18, 05:44 PM
Enchantment is negated partially by Protection from X (that blocks the active control of the charmed subject as well as blocks possession, but doesnt prevent the subject from acting at the best interest of his "master", if he can understand his wishes by some way). Also, remove fear and calm emotions do quite a number on then.

That said, a few enchantment spells dont require somatic components to cast, something my factotum/chameleon has taken quite an advantage.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 05:55 PM
I disagree wholeheartedly. Enchantment takes some forsight to use properly, as you do not use it to defeat the DM's big bads, you use it to capture and manipulate other people to help you face down those big bads with more resources than you could otherwise have.
Dominate is superior in this regard, to simulacrum, which while easier to use, is weaker and far more expensive, and it's superior to planar bindings, because it carries a little less risk, and can add things other than outsiders to your team.

A little less risk?? You've got to be kidding. No offense, but that's a terrible plan. One dispel, and not only will your resources deplete, your enemy's will grow as every one of your thralls becomes extremely pissed. The best you can hope for is that they immediately leave, rather than enlist with your foe. And you can't, even buff them with Magic Circle against X, lest you suppress your own leash.

If you want to bring an army to take on the big bad, that's what Necromancy and Conjuration are for, not enchantment.


As well, very few people have mind blank. It's a high level spell, difficult to justify on every encounter. When it is there, if dispelled, you can add someone that casts 8th levels to your party potentially. More realistically, it's not as though you must use enchantments on the boss, but rather should on some brute minion you encounter on the way.

And if said brutes are Constructs? Undead? Oozes? Elementals?


A far weaker school is still evocation, as unlike enchantment, the entire school of enchantment can be emulated by other schools. Enchantment may not uniquely target will, which is considered its best strength, but it does uniquely allow you to gain control and victory without killing enemies, and as opposed to simply eliminating threats, you gain power by winning. Only necromancy can boast similar, but necromancy loses a great deal of utility from those taken.

You can gain control of enemies without enchantment. Use illusion and make yourself look like their best friend, or turn the big bad into their worst enemy. Conjure up something that can Charm/Dominate, and let it do the work. Kill them and reanimate them. Anything but relying on the game's weakest school.

Eldariel
2010-03-18, 05:57 PM
The problem with enchantment is that they realized that not giving a way to protect against it would make it incredibly broken; they over erred there and made it easy to become outright immune to it.

...Mind Blank and Protections date back to AD&D. They aren't a response to the enchantment-school, rather than just a set of protections a caster is expected to have at their command. Btw, the school isn't breaking anything even if you remove said protections.

Sure, Irresistible Dance is a tad good, but it's nothing more than yet another no-save X effect for level 8 (there's also Maze and Reverse Gravity and such).


Somebody needs to do a study on how many things in the game get attributed to some manner of necessity, that upon closer scrutiny does not hold up, randomly.

sreservoir
2010-03-18, 06:05 PM
you can emulate most of conjuration with just one spell! (it's 9th, but still.)

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:19 PM
you can emulate most of conjuration with just one spell! (it's 9th, but still.)

If you mean Shades, that's not a good idea. All the Conjurations that ignore SR become subject to SR when you do that. (Not to mention the disbelief, saves, getting shut down in AMF etc.)

Darth Stabber
2010-03-18, 06:22 PM
From worst to best (without regard for Clerical redundancy)
Evocation(only good spells contingency, windwall, forcecage)
Enchantment
Illusion(though it can replicate evo)
Necromancy
Divination
Abjuration
Transmutation
Conjuration

When you have a cleric in the party Abjuration and to a lesser extent Divination become worse.

faceroll
2010-03-18, 06:38 PM
Evocation has some really great spells in it, but most of them are divine.

sreservoir
2010-03-18, 06:40 PM
If you mean Shades, that's not a good idea. All the Conjurations that ignore SR become subject to SR when you do that. (Not to mention the disbelief, saves, getting shut down in AMF etc.)

(there may have been some sarcasm in that. I wouldn't know, it isn't as it I wrote it.)

Emmerask
2010-03-18, 06:45 PM
At lower levels evocation has some very good spells you missed

blacklight
gust of wind (extremely useful)
wind wall
sonorous hum
crushing grip
some of the bigbys spells
defenestrating sphere
etc

Evocation has some pretty nice double/ triple threat spells not as awesome as conjuration which basically can do anything you want but still decent.

Yukitsu
2010-03-18, 06:46 PM
you can emulate most of conjuration with just one spell! (it's 9th, but still.)

Miracle doesn't just copy conjurations you know. :smalltongue:

sreservoir
2010-03-18, 06:54 PM
Miracle doesn't just copy conjurations you know. :smalltongue:

SR yes. And you'd have to get access to it in the first place. :smallwink:

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 07:04 PM
Looks to me like "not playing the absolute best build 3v4r" is not quite the same thing as "being insane".

True but in the context of this thread which is rating magic schools the point is valid. One would have to be insane to think that enchantment is a school generally worth keeping. And probably the same for evocation (other than say Sending which is a useful utility spell).

Regarding the original question:
Conjuration and Transmutation are probably the best as others have noted.

I'd generally order things as Enchantment < Evocation < Abjuration< Necromancy < Divination < Illusion < Transmutation < Conjuration. That said, there's a lot of room to swap some of those (especially the middle set is very arguable).

It also depends on the specific game. For example, I've heard of DMs who more or less banned Necromancy outright for player characters as "evil". In at least one case, someone found that out after they had already made enchantment and evocation their banned schools. Games that involve political action and the like will likely benefit from enchantment more. Similarly, how divination is interpreted and how GMs treat it can impact its usefulness a lot.

Regarding necromancy simple fact that much of necromancy has the [evil] label puts it where it is. If it were more sensibly unaligned for more spells then it would be a lot higher on the list. (Seriously. Why is Deathwatch evil? And why are Wizards stuck at gettign Animate Dead as both evil and as a 4th level rather than 3rd level spell.)

The real thing that puts conjuration at the top is that it has both a lot of utility spells and is the best at direct damage. While it is possible to argue that transmutation beats conjuration, I find that argument not convincing. Note that if we restrict to core transmutation does a much better job keeping even with conjuration (since no orb spells). Similarly, evocation becomes somewhat more reasonable due to the lack of orb spells in comparison.

Cisturn
2010-03-18, 10:53 PM
i think the first page guys might have been a little harsh on evocation it's not the best i know, but it has some of the most classic dnd spells in it. For me lesser orb of fire just doesn't feel the same as a fireball. (and i dont mean damage output either). I think evocation is also cool for actual adventuring parties. Conjuration can tend to be overkill, I mean it really stops being fun for the Party Fighter and Rogue if the wizard can just bash through everything the dm sets up for it. I'm not saying evocation is the best (it's not) but that doesn't make it any less fun to play.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-18, 11:12 PM
When your outnumbered by numerous weaker enemies and you DON'T have access to evocation your suddenly missing it. As nice as conjuration is it simply can't deal the mass destruction of evocation and it takes quite a good deal of work to get illusion to truly substitute evocation, such as the shadow gnome killer. But then your still technically using evocation your just finding an alternate way to access it.

And really I've found numerous encounters with numerous weaker enemies are often more effective at weakening a party then small number of tougher foes. Especially when they forgo the school of evocation.

So if your outnumbered two to one in the encounter, chances are fireball is superior orb of X.

And if your a wizard, normally you don't want to give up two schools of magic, baring certain PrC classes that require specialization or allow you to make up for the lost school.

The reality is some schools are certainly better in general then others but as a general rule you don't want to cut of access to any of them.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-19, 03:21 AM
I just wanted to mentione Mindrape here (instantaneous duration too, so good luck PFE'ing it away).

Kurald Galain
2010-03-19, 03:25 AM
i think the first page guys might have been a little harsh on evocation it's not the best i know, but it has some of the most classic dnd spells in it.
Definitely true. Note how just like the argument that "Mind Blank kills enchantment", the notion that all evocation spells can be duplicated by Shadow Evoc simply isn't true at all levels. Fireball is available at level 5, Shadow Evoc comes four levels later. Not that fireball is such a great spell, but it is underrated on forums.

Of course, the Orb spells are quite a bit too good at upstaging evocation.

Runestar
2010-03-19, 05:50 AM
Here is what the 3.0 FAQ has to say about protection from evil. I used it over the entry in the 3.5 FAQ because the latter appears to be a piece of crap written by someone with no idea of the rules whatsoever.

The second function of the protection from evil spell blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature or to exercise mental control over the creature. What, exactly, counts as mental control?

“Mental control” includes all spells of the school of Enchantment that have the Charm subschool, such as animal friendship, charm person, and charm monster. It also includes some Enchantment spells of the Compulsion subschool if those spells grant the caster ongoing control over the subject; such spells include dominate person and dominate monster.

Compulsions that merely dictate the subject’s action at the time the spell takes effect are not blocked. Such spells include command, hold person, geas/quest, hypnotism, insanity, Otto’s irresistible dance, random action, suggestion, and zone of truth.

I actually like greater heroism, but it is eventually blocked out by mindblank (since it is a morale bonus). I agree that every school has something to offer, but if you are forced to ban some of them, then you will have to settle for those with the least drawback. For me, that usually works out to be evocation, enchantment and necromancy (for focused specialists).

Abjuration is too risky to ban because of dispel magic, which I found becomes all the more crucial at mid-higher lvs, where both sides tend to start combat buff to the gills, so encounters typically degenerate into dispel wars.

Evocation does have some neat spells as well, but interestingly enough, none of them deal damage (such as forcecage and contingency). :smalltongue:

I find necromancy is great for debuffing, but conjuration just does it better. My DM is not a big fan of allowing hydra skeletons to tag along our party either. :smallwink:

Divination...you can't ban it anyways, so kinda moot point. Some useful spells, just that they are not worth memorizing as their use is so specific. Plus, with spontaneous divination (complete champion), you never need to bother preparing divination spells ever again.

Yeah, conjuration is still my all time favourite. :smallsmile:

BTW, has anyone ever tried playing a transmutation specialist, and if so, how did you play him?

Kurald Galain
2010-03-19, 05:54 AM
BTW, has anyone ever tried playing a transmutation specialist, and if so, how did you play him?

Only in 2E, and the definition of schools was rather different back then.

Specifically, in 2E the only schools worth specializing in are pretty much Transmutation and Evocation, because they have so many more spells than everything else that it's not even funny; many many things fall under Transmutation by 2E rules because "they change stuff", including Teleport and Color Spray. Likewise, many things fall under Evocation because "they evoke something". It wasn't until 3E that a clear and fair(ish) division of schools was made.

Amphetryon
2010-03-19, 06:28 AM
BTW, has anyone ever tried playing a transmutation specialist, and if so, how did you play him?I had a Transmutation Focused Specialist. I dumped Enchantment, Evocation, and Illusion - DM's approach to Illusions made many of them use-impaired anyway. Using mainly Transmutation and Necromancy spells, I was the Buffer/Debuffer extraordinaire for the party who could also fill the recon niche through the Alter Self line and summon the occasional beastie in a tough fight.

Runestar
2010-03-19, 06:34 AM
I had a Transmutation Focused Specialist. I dumped Enchantment, Evocation, and Illusion - DM's approach to Illusions made many of them use-impaired anyway. Using mainly Transmutation and Necromancy spells, I was the Buffer/Debuffer extraordinaire for the party who could also fill the recon niche through the Alter Self line and summon the occasional beastie in a tough fight.

What transmutation spells did you use? It seems the main spells getting slung around our gaming table are either enlarge person, polymorph, haste or slow. :smallconfused:

Amphetryon
2010-03-19, 06:45 AM
What transmutation spells did you use? It seems the main spells getting slung around our gaming table are either enlarge person, polymorph, haste or slow. :smallconfused:

Enlarge Person, MW/GMW, Haste, Slow, and the various [critter's + 4 attribute] were in great demand at low-mid levels. My ability to use Animal Growth was appreciated by the Summoner Druid, and all of the 5th level Transmutation spells saw a great deal of use, as battlefield changers. Move Earth, Tenser's Transformation, and Disintegrate were fun. I'd just picked up Control Weather, Glass Strike, and Spell Matrix when the game petered out.

Eldariel
2010-03-19, 08:25 AM
Definitely true. Note how just like the argument that "Mind Blank kills enchantment", the notion that all evocation spells can be duplicated by Shadow Evoc simply isn't true at all levels. Fireball is available at level 5, Shadow Evoc comes four levels later. Not that fireball is such a great spell, but it is underrated on forums.

The issue isn't really that Shadow Evocation replicates the school, it's just that it's very rare that a Fireball would be more efficient than another spell. Necromancy packs decent amounts of offensive magic even in Core and the various control-spells offered by Conjuration tend to be about as efficient at dealing with masses as Fireball, but also being efficient against masses of tough opponents.

So...yeah, it has its uses, but it isn't necessary, and rarely enough even a better option...and if it is, it tends to be a low-enough risk situation that absolute efficiency isn't necessary and it wouldn't save you damage.


Though it's true that it gets sold short occasionally; casting Fireball at a large number of opponents can deal decent amounts of damage and casting Fireball at a large number of glass cannons (without Rogue levels) can just KO the whole bunch and be extremely useful.

Still, it's rare for it to be able to KO a bunch, and equally rare for e.g. Glitterdust, Web or Stinking Cloud not to be able to take the same bunch outta the fight.


BTW, has anyone ever tried playing a transmutation specialist, and if so, how did you play him?

I have, though that game allowed Polymorphs, which I obviously made tons of use of. Short list of stuff I used tho:
- Reduce Person (on our sneak, on enemy frontliners, etc.)
- Enlarge Person (obvious)

- Alter Self (flight, AC, swimming, whatever one needs)
- Bull's Strength-line (before about level 10 when +4 items start to appear, these are extremely useful)
- Pyrotechnics (an extremely underrated spell; both effects are very useful with Fireworks being like a massive Glitterdust and Smoke Cloud being kinda like e.g. Stinking Cloud; particularly awesome in combination with e.g. Bullseye Lantern)

- Haste: Duuuuuuuh
- Slow: Duuuuh
- Fly: Duh, defensive buff, and gets the martialists there
- Greater Magic Weapon: Duh, characters in the party
- Keen Edge: Duh; warriors in the party
- Flame Arrow: Duh; archer in the party (oh, and I had a bow too)
- Blink: Occasionally as a defensive buff; though mostly superceded by Invisibility, but the ability to go through walls can be handy
- Gaseous Form: Sometimes used as a scouting spell

- Polymorph: Duuuuuuuuh; Hydra/Remorzah Fighters, everything from burrow to flight to insane natural stats for the Wizard, extremely tough-to-detect forms for the Rogue, etc.
- Stone Shape: Some combat applications (drop something on unsuspecting suckers, generate holes, etc.); mostly out-of-combat solver though. Note that the chance of a shape with moving parts not working is only 30%. That means rather good chances of creating functional machines.
- Mnemonic Enhancer: Handy Wandable, though rarely prepared.

- Animal Growth: Much better for a Druid, of course, but if you happen to have one around, you can work in tandem to great effect. Also, nice with Handle Animal if you happen to have that.
- Baleful Polymorph: Well, it's effectively Finger of Death without the death-description. Handy.
- Overland Flight: Slightly more "Duh" than previous "Duh"s
- Telekinesis: Handy for tossing things at people, grappling/tripping (your bonuses tend to be fairly good and not being at risk yourself helps), and yeah. If you've ever watched a horror movie involving ghosts, you can think of a thousand uses for this :smallwink:
- Transmute Rock to Mud: Has some uses, though mostly in preparing ambushes and such (as you might've noticed from the others, we like ambushes and surprise attacks)

- Disintegrate: The ultimate door opener, pathmaker, etc. And Undead-killer. Great spell overall.
- Flesh to Stone: Another Finger of Death...
- Move Earth: Yeah.
- Lucubration: Eminently scrollable.

- Control Weather: We overturned one siege fight with this. Turns out siege engines don't appreciate extreme wind or tornadoes; it was spring.
- Ethereal Jaunt: Again, great sneaking, etc.
- Reverse Gravity: Many a dorks were left floating in the air due to not having flight.

...and that's where the game ended. We were level 13 or 14 at the time, I don't remember for sure. I know I woulda wanted to get to play around with Polymorph Any Object, Temporal Stasis and eventually Time Stop and Shapechange (well, of course I have played around with 'em, but not as a Transmuter Specialist), but it never got that far. It was from-1 game though so it was quite a long one overall.

But yeah, I played it out as a sort of buffer/controller, which seems pretty natural for a Transmuter. Could make for a nice Gish-chassis too, but buffing others is safer and easier.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-19, 12:46 PM
When your outnumbered by numerous weaker enemies and you DON'T have access to evocation your suddenly missing it. As nice as conjuration is it simply can't deal the mass destruction of evocation and it takes quite a good deal of work to get illusion to truly substitute evocation, such as the shadow gnome killer. But then your still technically using evocation your just finding an alternate way to access it.

Cloudkill, metamagic'd grease, black tentacles, wall of stone, and the Summon Monster line all would like to have a word with you on that.

As for Shadowcrafting your way to victory, that's more points for Illusion than Evocation, as you're spontaneously popping an entire school from one spell and for more reality than normally allowed. Really, Shadowcraft Gnomes are just about the only people able to actually give 110% (or more).:smallbiggrin:


And really I've found numerous encounters with numerous weaker enemies are often more effective at weakening a party then small number of tougher foes. Especially when they forgo the school of evocation.

So if your outnumbered two to one in the encounter, chances are fireball is superior orb of X.

For 3rd level spells, a stinking cloud basically does what a fireball would do in stopping closely huddled enemies. It also has the side benefit of hampering mooks who wouldn't otherwise die from an unsuccessful save. At the same level, Conjuration also has tricks like Phantom Steed to GTFO - or, at the very least, stay out of combat range.


And if your a wizard, normally you don't want to give up two schools of magic, baring certain PrC classes that require specialization or allow you to make up for the lost school.

The reality is some schools are certainly better in general then others but as a general rule you don't want to cut of access to any of them.

A while back, Treantmonk did a very in-depth review of the pros and cons of specializing (focus or standard) versus being a generalist. For most levels where you would gain access to new schools of magic, you could usually only represent one from your highest level spells and maybe two or three from your next highest. Going specialist doesn't change that, but it does offer you [i]more]/i] spells, which is important. Hell, given either Conjuration or Transmutation, you're also probably not losing any functionality from going Focused, either.

Honestly, the reality is that nearly anything Evocation can do, either Conjuration does better or Illusion can mimic, given a two or so levels of delay.

Losing Enchantment is a non-issue due how much is lost from a first. level. spell. Sure, now, people will say "but but dispel magic," but the same can be said for your spells or that dood's spells or any other number of things. Plus, it is another action, which can hurt at times. On top of this, you've got undead and company who laugh at enchantment and say "good joke" before proceeding to feast on your corpse (assuming this isn't somehow "just as planned," natch).


Now, for the third school to drop for either Incantatrixes or Focused Specialists, I'm inclined to go Necromancy, as I usually cover mooks via summoning or calling spells. Losing out on the straight up "lose" spells like Shivering Touch and Enervation does hurt a little, but similar spells can be found in Conjuration and occasional Transmutation. Other people will offer up Illusion or Abjuration. The latter of which I can agree on given a properly prepared cleric or some other sort of caster in the party, the former less so. Retaining the few gems from Evocation is just too good of an offer for my tastes.


All of that being said, my personal favorites, from best to worst are this:
Conjuration
Transmutation
Divination, largely due for the information gathering powers and occasional gems such as Unluck.
Illusion
Abjuration
Necromancy
Evocation
Enchantment

Petrocorus
2010-03-19, 01:49 PM
....Duuuuuuuh....


Huh...what does "duuuuuhh" means?




A while back, Treantmonk did a very in-depth review of the pros and cons of specializing (focus or standard) versus being a generalist.

Would you have the link? It's on OotS forum?

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 01:51 PM
Would you have the link? It's on OotS forum?

Focused Specialist is Better Than You Think (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864630/Focused_Specialist_is_better_than_you_think)

Though IIRC, he and Logicninja are still at each other's throats about it.

Eldariel
2010-03-19, 01:59 PM
Huh...what does "duuuuuhh" means?

It means pretty much "Too obvious to comment on"; as in, e.g. Haste, Slow & Polymorph are all just so obviously insane that there's little need to include elaborate comments on their uses and virtues as that's rather obvious.

Petrocorus
2010-03-19, 02:06 PM
Thanks both.
I'm pretty interested by the subject because i always prefer the generalist, for fluff reason, and with the elven generalist sub-level and the domain wizard variant which are stackable, i had the feeling that it was still good.
I note that the transmutation domain gives the aforementioned haste and polymorph.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 06:13 PM
Cloudkill can take a good deal of time to kill creatures especially when mooks start having 5HD, Black Tentacles isn't usually fatal on its own, and it has complicated issues about when does it grapple or not.

A wall of stone is easily ripped own without multiple casting due to how thin it is. The simply fact is its usually only a few inches thick, easily destroyed by anyone. If you want to contain someone inside a deadly cloud use force cage or a couple walls of force. But then your using evocation aren't you.

Having illusion mimic evocation takes a great deal more effort, and relying on say shadow evocation line of spells if your not a shadowgnome killer is not ideal.

The other thing to remember is characters don't exist in alone, a wizard could cast resist energy mass on the party vs fire then be able to drop a fireball on top of themselves dealing minimal damage to themselves compared to the enemy.
You don't want to spells like black tentacles, cloudkill, or stinking cloud ontop of your own party and they have trouble with aerial opponents.

Now I still think that evocation and enchantment are the easiest schools to give up. But as a general rule as a wizard I won't specialize, as preparing the right spell for the encounters a head is part of being a wizard and cutting out those schools makes that more difficult.

And your still under the mistaken impression that protection from alignment X does more then it actually does, It in fact does jack squat against most compulsions, if its not a form of charm or dominate it does nothing.

One PrC I like but never had the chance to play was the Knight of the Thorn from the dragonlance setting. It grands the advantages of divination specialization. Without giving up a school of magic.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:18 PM
Enchantment is a keeper if you do everything you can to raise your spell DC - magic items aimed toward enchantment (I haven't found many), feats, INT raises, etc. Drop necromancy with good character, keep it and drop evocation with evil character. Better yet, drop both of them unless you want a necromancer.

Enchantment/necromancy is my favourite combo, though. I can never figure out what to drop so I end up being stupid and taking out abjuration.

Then comes in the intelligent spellcasting templated undead who screw you over big time. Oh and those hordes of zombies, skeletons, horrors, and golems aren't going to even be slowed down by your enchantments. Conjuration and Transmutation, heck even Evocation are better at dealing with these.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 06:36 PM
Then comes in the intelligent spellcasting templated undead who screw you over big time. Oh and those hordes of zombies, skeletons, horrors, and golems aren't going to even be slowed down by your enchantments. Conjuration and Transmutation, heck even Evocation are better at dealing with these.

But what about when your not dealing with these things. Everyone is making the assuming that 90% of what you fight is going to be immune to enchantment. What about all the times your not fighting undead and constructs? and if you are spells like greater heroism to enhance your fellows.
Or those non-undead minions you have dominated to use as fodder.

By your logic, the orb line of spell are bad because the enemy might have a rod of absorption which would simply eat the spells up as the item does not depend on SR.

And he never said drop conjuration or transmutation in favor of enchantment.
Under his enchanter plan, he can specialize in enchantment and still have conjuration and transmutation to deal with undead. He just doesn't have necromancy and/or evocation.

Its like saying Orb spells are useless in my campaign just because ONE model of construct automatically absorbs and spell that targets it directly.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:37 PM
But what about when your not dealing with these things. Everyone is making the assuming that 90% of what you fight is going to be immune to enchantment. What about all the times your not fighting undead and constructs? and if you are spells like greater heroism to enhance your fellows.
Or those non-undead minions you have dominated to use as fodder.

By your logic, the orb line of spell are bad because the enemy might have a rod of absorption which would simply eat the spells up as the item does not depend on SR.

And he never said drop conjuration or transmutation in favor of enchantment.
Under his enchanter plan, he can specialize in enchantment and still have conjuration and transmutation to deal with undead. He just doesn't have necromancy or evocation.






Its like saying Orb spells are useless in my campaign just because ONE model of construct automatically absorbs and spell that targets it directly.

Except that it's one line of construct. We are talking about every last single undead and most constructs out there.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 06:39 PM
Except that it's one line of construct. We are talking about every last single undead and most constructs out there.

Your still assuming that it be the majority of what the party faces and he won't have conjuration or transmutation to deal with those threats which is false. And assuming that the majority of what the party faces are undead and constructs which I don't think is normal.

I also changed by example to the rod of absorption

krossbow
2010-03-19, 06:40 PM
Except that it's one line of construct. We are talking about every last single undead and most constructs out there.

Not to mention mooks who've had a few simple spells cast on them to protect them from enchantments. (protection from good/evil say high when you try to dominate the BBEG's minions)

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:42 PM
Your still assuming that it be the majority of what the party faces and he won't have conjuration or transmutation to deal with those threats which is false. And assuming that the majority of what the party faces are undead and constructs which I don't think is normal.

I also changed by example to the rod of absorption

Most of the spells enchantment has are outshined by illusion. Really the only enchantment spells worth bothering about are the mind control spells (suggestion, charm, dominate, so on.) And these can be replicated with a high bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy check.

Critical
2010-03-19, 06:43 PM
Best and most usefull Magic school?

Conjuration, because it has everything.

Worse and "first-to-dump" school?

Evocation, because other schools have nukes too. Enchantment has it's uses.

First school to specialize?

Conjuration or Transmutation, depends on the party. If it's rather small, spec Conjuration to have pretty much everithing. If it's large, spec in Transmutation and provide lots of buffs.

Best meta-friendly school?

Depends what do you mean by meta-friendly here. If you mean, that most of metamagic feats can apply, it's Conjuration. If you mean whic have the most use of metamagic, it's Transmutation, mainly expanded/persistant buffs.

Eldariel
2010-03-19, 06:45 PM
Most of the spells enchantment has are outshined by illusion. Really the only enchantment spells worth bothering about are the mind control spells (suggestion, charm, dominate, so on.) And these can be replicated with a high bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy check.

Heroism is a worthwhile Enchantment for midlevels; allday Morale-bonuses are hard to come by and at 10 min/level and level 3, it's quite easily extended to last all day giving everyone a handy +2 to...everything. But yeah, that doesn't change the general verdict as it's not the only source of all-day Morales and not worth an entire school of spells at any rate.

Though Dominates tend to be quite useful, but often in positions where you don't really need the capability to cast the spell, as their combat usefulness is reduced by the ease of protection thus making them more efficient out of combat.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:45 PM
Best and most usefull Magic school?

Conjuration, because it has everything.

Worse and "first-to-dump" school?

Evocation, because other schools have nukes too. Enchantment has it's uses.

First school to specialize?

Conjuration or Transmutation, depends on the party. If it's rather small, spec Conjuration to have pretty much everithing. If it's large, spec in Transmutation and provide lots of buffs.

Best meta-friendly school?

Depends what do you mean by meta-friendly here. If you mean, that most of metamagic feats can apply, it's Conjuration. If you mean whic have the most use of metamagic, it's Transmutation, mainly expanded/persistant buffs.

You must deal with a lich who has four levels on you. At least with Evocation you'd have some way to damage it, but Enchantment spells won't even prove to be an annoyance to him.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 06:47 PM
Not to mention mooks who've had a few simple spells cast on them to protect them from enchantments.

If the compulsion doesn't grant direct going control of the subject protection from alignment DOES NOTHING! except perhaps increase the saving throw to resist.

The spell is actually useless against more compulsions then it protects against as aside from charm and domination very few grant on going control. If were talking core only, charm and dominate thats it, the FAQ example shows its useless even against suggestion.

Please people, stop attributing powers to a 1st level spell that it doesn't have.


Most of the spells enchantment has are outshined by illusion. Really the only enchantment spells worth bothering about are the mind control spells (suggestion, charm, dominate, so on.) And these can be replicated with a high bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy check.

Only when people treat the skills as magical effects and not as skills.
Bluff wears off plain and simple, it doesn't make people idiots it even says the effects usually only last a round.

Intimidate won't last once you turned your back, whom ever you intimidating may sink a knife in you the moment you betray them.

Diplomacy only specifies what a target may do, it doesn't actually give you control. Just because you've made the mooks friendly or helpful doesn't mean their ready to fight along side you. It could simply mean they'll turn there back and maybe let you go on or go back and pretend you didn't see them.
And anyway the static effects table most DM's find broken and have to find ways to mitigate anyway.

krossbow
2010-03-19, 06:50 PM
If the compulsion doesn't grant direct going control of the subject protection from alignment DOES NOTHING! except perhaps increase the saving throw to resist.

The spell is actually useless against more compulsions then it protects against as aside from charm and domination very few grant on going control. If were talking core only, charm and dominate thats it, the FAQ example shows its useless even against suggestion.

Please people, stop attributing powers to a 1st level spell that it doesn't have.


Examples given about why Enchantment is awesome include mind controlling people to be your personal army and then using them against any immune beings in the area.


Or those non-undead minions you have dominated to use as fodder.


I'm pointing out that it takes barely any effort to Prevent this tactic before sending underlings to engage the enchanter and his party.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 07:03 PM
Examples given about why Enchantment is awesome include mind controlling people to be your personal army and then using them against any immune beings in the area.



I'm pointing out that it takes barely any effort to Prevent this tactic before sending underlings to engage the enchanter and his party.

The duration of protection from alignment is very short, and only suppresses the effects. You could dominate a few mooks, then use suggestion (which is not stopped by protection from alignment). To have them go for a walk. The protection from alignment expires before the dominate does. Instant minion.
Remember the effects are only suppressed not negated.

And given the short duration, the mooks will have very little time to actually reach the party.

And many things the party fights either don't have a lot of magical support, or none at all as they are simply mooks or random encounters. And of course not every foe should be an expert in the parties abilities.

NOW once you have your minion you can command them to resist spells cast on them by anyone other then a party member. So if someone tries to cast Protection from alignment on them after being dominated they'll make a saving throw to resist the spell. You can roll to resist harmless spells if you want to... or have no choice.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 07:06 PM
The duration of protection from alignment is very short, and only suppresses the effects. You could dominate a few mooks, then use suggestion (which is not stopped by protection from alignment). To have them go for a walk. The protection from alignment expires before the dominate does. Instant minion.
Remember the effects are only suppressed not negated.

And given the short duration, the mooks will have very little time to actually reach the party.

And many things the party fights either don't have a lot of magical support, or none at all as they are simply mooks or random encounters. And of course not every foe should be an expert in the parties abilities.

NOW once you have your minion you can command them to resist spells cast on them by anyone other then a party member. So if someone tries to cast Protection from alignment on them after being dominated they'll make a saving throw to resist the spell. You can roll to resist harmless spells if you want to... or have no choice.

While you waste your time on the weakest school, the lich with four levels on you slaps you with energy drain.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 07:10 PM
While you waste your time on the weakest school, the lich with four levels on you slaps you with energy drain.

Where are all these five thousand liches from? if your DM designs encounters to screw your abilities over, every school of magic sucks.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 07:12 PM
Where are all these five thousand liches from? if your DM designs encounters to screw your abilities over, every school of magic sucks.

Yes but if you had conjuration or even evocation you might harm him, he's just a lich conjurer with four more levels than you.

onthetown
2010-03-19, 07:19 PM
Then comes in the intelligent spellcasting templated undead who screw you over big time. Oh and those hordes of zombies, skeletons, horrors, and golems aren't going to even be slowed down by your enchantments. Conjuration and Transmutation, heck even Evocation are better at dealing with these.

Shhh... don't give my DM any more ideas... :smalltongue:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 07:20 PM
Yes but if you had conjuration or even evocation you might harm him, he's just a lich conjurer with four more levels than you.

WHY can't someone have enchantment, conjuration and evocation on the same character? where do you get this idea that specializing in enchantment makes you GIVE up all others.

Eldariel
2010-03-19, 07:23 PM
Yes but if you had conjuration or even evocation you might harm him, he's just a lich conjurer with four more levels than you.

Then again, if he has 4 more levels than you, you're pretty ****ed either way regardless of your schools as he has access to spells 2 levels higher than you and thus is quite capable of just being immune to everything you do while raping the game with some unsightly spell you don't have access to yet, depending on the exact level we're talking about (Level 21+? Epic BS. Level 17+? Time Stop/Shapechange/Gate/Disjunction/etc. Level 15+? Moment of Prescience/PAO/Greater Planar Binding. Level 13+? Simulacrum/etc.).

Kurald Galain
2010-03-19, 08:49 PM
You must deal with a lich who has four levels on you. At least with Evocation you'd have some way to damage it, but Enchantment spells won't even prove to be an annoyance to him.

:vaarsuvius: recently tried taking down a lich using Evocation spells. That didn't turn out so hot for xyr.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 08:54 PM
You must deal with a lich who has four levels on you. At least with Evocation you'd have some way to damage it, but Enchantment spells won't even prove to be an annoyance to him.

In which case you bust out the Orbs, Glitterdust, Grease, and damn near every other Conjuration spell you have.


And Disintegrate. Because you know a Lich's Fort is going to suck.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-19, 09:11 PM
Cloudkill can take a good deal of time to kill creatures especially when mooks start having 5HD, Black Tentacles isn't usually fatal on its own, and it has complicated issues about when does it grapple or not.

Cloudkill isn't an instant-kill spell, but it certainly does more than Fireball or Ice storm. The HP lost to it may not be significant at low levels, but it would help in hurting usually high fort saves for someone else. Black Tentacles also does not have to be fatal, as it locks away opponents so that the chumps beatsticks get to shine.


A wall of stone is easily ripped own without multiple casting due to how thin it is. The simply fact is its usually only a few inches thick, easily destroyed by anyone. If you want to contain someone inside a deadly cloud use force cage or a couple walls of force. But then your using evocation aren't you.

See, having them blow an action on the wall or simply wasting time walking around it still provides benefit for the caster. Generally speaking, sundering provokes, so that provides its own use with teamwork. Also, when I want to lockdown mooks, I drop tentacles with my poison, as what I was debunking was the fact that evocation still outshines conjuration for crowd control.


Having illusion mimic evocation takes a great deal more effort, and relying on say shadow evocation line of spells if your not a shadowgnome killer is not ideal.

Having even a fake wall can prove enough to have the enemy avoid it. It doesn't have to be perfect: just them eating a full round action to get the save is enough sometimes.


The other thing to remember is characters don't exist in alone, a wizard could cast resist energy mass on the party vs fire then be able to drop a fireball on top of themselves dealing minimal damage to themselves compared to the enemy.
You don't want to spells like black tentacles, cloudkill, or stinking cloud ontop of your own party and they have trouble with aerial opponents.

See above. There can also be low level spells like delay poison to aid allies. Alternatively, again, as the suggestion was "spells against mooks," while I drop a spell or two to take care of group X, the Super Justice Friends take care of group Y. I have not once said the wizard need be party-less.


Now I still think that evocation and enchantment are the easiest schools to give up. But as a general rule as a wizard I won't specialize, as preparing the right spell for the encounters a head is part of being a wizard and cutting out those schools makes that more difficult.

I would recommend reading Treantmonk's guide that Optimystik provided. I know not everyone agrees with it, but it is something to consider, due to the work he put into it.


And your still under the mistaken impression that protection from alignment X does more then it actually does, It in fact does jack squat against most compulsions, if its not a form of charm or dominate it does nothing.

Seems plenty clear to me.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.



The duration of protection from alignment is very short, and only suppresses the effects. You could dominate a few mooks, then use suggestion (which is not stopped by protection from alignment). To have them go for a walk. The protection from alignment expires before the dominate does. Instant minion.
Remember the effects are only suppressed not negated.

Right. So, the enemy drops a spell round one, which does nothing before eating a broadsword before he drops the suggestion, which doesn't work for the above. The important thing isn't that the protection from X lasts all day; sometimes, it just needs to last until the schmuck who is trying to mind rape me is dead.



And given the short duration, the mooks will have very little time to actually reach the party.

Or, if they are ambushing the party, they have plenty of time to reach them. Or bows are in play. Sure, it may be a factor, assuming a level one caster or wand is popping the spell, but that's still ten rounds of no enemy control.



And many things the party fights either don't have a lot of magical support, or none at all as they are simply mooks or random encounters. And of course not every foe should be an expert in the parties abilities.

If so, then chances are they aren't worth the controlling. I also find that, by mid-levels, some form of magical protection is in play, either due to creature type, spells, psionics, incarnum, or SLA'd monsters.

There's also the issue when your big guns fall flat against an actual threat. The beauty of transmutation or conjuration is that either schools has toys to deal with Joe Schmoe and the Mook Men as well as the BBEG with or without saves attached.



NOW once you have your minion you can command them to resist spells cast on them by anyone other then a party member. So if someone tries to cast Protection from alignment on them after being dominated they'll make a saving throw to resist the spell. You can roll to resist harmless spells if you want to... or have no choice.

This is certainly valid. Still, I would rather just be rid of the schmuck and raise him to insure complete dominance. Admittedly, having him come back as a run of mill zombie isn't always wonderful, but there are several means around that. Now, in the event that I dropped necromancy, as oft is the case, I'll just bind something similar to that schmuck if I saw something I liked.

EDIT: Something I should expand upon. Just because event X may not occur (such as facing something immune to Enchantment spells) does not mean you should not at least be prepared to handle for such an event.

ericgrau
2010-03-19, 10:22 PM
Without certain cheesy splatbook spells:
1. Conjuration, for walls and other control.
2. Evocation, for some control that's much harder to overcome/resist/save than conjurations and some multi target damage. As the areas of both the control and damage are usually bigger than conjuration, evocation would rank #1 against mobs.
(and both because the shadow spells suck goat cheese)
3&4. Illusion and transmutation are a bit of a toss up. You can do some pretty awesome things with illusion (both actual illusions and things like invisibility and so on), but it takes planning. Transmutation has a handful of awesome spells, but the rest are pretty mild.
5. Enchantment can be nice but it's often situational, especially but not only when mindless things come at you.
6&7. Necromancy is also situational, and weak at the same time.
Abjuration is fairly lackluster, and the cleric can do most of it just as well. Some are nice in certain situations like if the enemy piles on a dozen buffs, but otherwise you're better off doing something offensive. Both have a couple of nice spells. Say 1 per 2 levels in core. So it's hard to put one before the other.
8. Divination last, b/c while having the right divination spell would provide epic level planning in char op theory, guess what, you prepared the wrong one. Even when you do get it right you blow a spell for only a small piece of information, or you found that you looked in the wrong space and you blow an entire spell just to find out you should look elsewhere.

Graymayre
2010-03-19, 10:37 PM
Illusion, the sheer amount of things you can do with it are staggering. Not to mention it also gives you access to spells from schools you may prohibit (such as evocation) and spells from other schools reducing the normally insurmountable need for them (conjuration).


Worst would be evocation for obvious and endlessly spelled out reasons.

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 10:54 PM
:vaarsuvius: recently tried taking down a lich using Evocation spells. That didn't turn out so hot for xyr.

Those "pronouns" make my eyes bleed.

And in case you forgot, his most effective spell against Xykon was evocation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) Had he fired more of those instead of lightning (seriously?) he might have been able to take him down.

ericgrau
2010-03-19, 11:50 PM
There is surprisingly little in high level core conjuration that would have any effect at all on Xykon. And in the absence of a party, against a caster, the school in general is a short delay at best. But the main reason V failed was poor planning and strategy, wielding magic like a hammer like he said.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-20, 12:31 AM
Without certain cheesy splatbook spells:


I'm curious as to what you mean by the bold statement here. Are we talking things like Shivering Touch, Ribbons, and Maw of Chaos? Or are you more referring to splats in general like Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane/Mage.

Even regarding just core, I still would throw transmutation and illusion over evocation due to Polymorph effects and generally creativity that illusions provide.


There is surprisingly little in high level core conjuration that would have any effect at all on Xykon. And in the absence of a party, against a caster, the school in general is a short delay at best. But the main reason V failed was poor planning and strategy, wielding magic like a hammer like he said.

Out of the four 9th level core conjuration Spells, both Gate and SMIX would have proved helpful. Out of the five 8th level conjuration spells, only Incendiary Cloud would not have done something. Sure, Greater Planar Binding and Trap the Soul have prep time associated with them, but the former's is minor. Out of the seven 7th level spells, only SMVII would have been immediately beneficial. So, out of 16 spells, we have 7 spells from conjuration that could have done something useful. Obviously, Gate more than otherwise, but that's still more than "surprisingly little."

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-20, 02:02 AM
Most of the spells enchantment has are outshined by illusion. Really the only enchantment spells worth bothering about are the mind control spells (suggestion, charm, dominate, so on.) And these can be replicated with a high bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy check.

Or illusory script.

For single target damage dealing, telekinesis makes transmutation probably the best school.