A Real-Life Vaarsuvius...?

[JoseB]

Well, finally there is a person in the world who has been officially recognized as having no gender whatsoever... (http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/2010/03/17/norrie’s-may-well-be-the-first-of-their-kind/22790)

Highlights from that article:



"In January, doctors declared they could not categorise norrie as male or female, as norrie had no gonads, an atypical hormonal system and identified as neuter."

"Norrie received the ‘Sex Not Specified’ certificate in the post"

BUUUUT... After having a look at Norrie's pics, I have to say that I find Vaarsuvius cuter :smalltongue:

Other places with the news:

Daily Telegraph (UK) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7446850/Briton-is-recognised-as-worlds-first-officially-genderless-person.html)

The Scotsman (UK) (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Scot-Norrie-MayWelby-has-now.6150866.jp)

New York Daily News (US) (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/03/16/2010-03-16_no_sex_for_me_please_extranssexual_briton_is_fi rst_legally_genderless_person.html)

The Usual Wikipedia Reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrie_May-Welby)

[Cizak]

Have a feeling this'll get locked or moved since it doens't really have anything to do with oots. It's like postinga picture of a bald, black guy and say "Hey! This guys looks like Roy, hence this thread is about oots!".

[JoseB]

On the other hand, whereas there are plenty of bald black guys in the world, I don't think there has ever been someone officially acknowledged as having no gender whatsoever before...

I think that, therefore, it makes for a valid comparison with Vaarsuvius, given that V's main distinguishing characteristic (lack of gender, or at least lack of any way whatsoever to decide what V's gender is) is a pretty rare thing in real life.

[Kaytara]

*looks at the Wikipedia article*

...I never thought to see the words "zie" and "hir" outside of fanforums. :smalleek: What is the world coming to? XD

[Zanaril]

But V isn't confirmed as having no gender! V's gender is just unknown! (to everyone except - presumably - V and Inky).

Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exsist!

[Comet]

*looks at the Wikipedia article*

...I never thought to see the words "zie" and "hir" outside of fanforums. :smalleek: What is the world coming to? XD

And it looks absolutely silly, to boot.
I do understand the need for gender-neutral terms in this instance, but c'mon. Zie? Who came up with these and what are they based on?

[Zanaril]

Who came up with these and what are they based on?

Apparently, any consonant that isn't already used for a pronoun.

[Asta Kask]

And it looks absolutely silly, to boot.
I do understand the need for gender-neutral terms in this instance, but c'mon. Zie? Who came up with these and what are they based on?

It is extremely difficult to create new function words and make them stick. Pronouns is usually a closed class; no new members allowed. So if this sticks, I'll be surprised.

[Sholos]

"It" is gender neutral.

[Shale]

But also refers to inanimate objects - some people get offended when you call their pets "it."

[Sholos]

But also refers to inanimate objects - some people get offended when you call their pets "it."

Pets aren't traditionally gender-neutral, are they?

[SensFan]

But also refers to inanimate objects - some people get offended when you call their pets "it."
Forget pets, some people get upset when you refer to their cars/boats as "it".

[Katana_Geldar]

News in today: NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages canceled (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/norries-ungendered-status-withdrawn-20100318-qhw5.html) Norrie's gender neutrality.

[martinkou]

Pets aren't traditionally gender-neutral, are they?

They aren't. But it can be difficult for people to recognize your pet's gender on the first glance.

[Katana_Geldar]

And with snakes it's very hard.

[Raging Gene Ray]

And lizards. And chicks. I hear there's actually a job devoted entirely to sexing baby chicks (that means identifying their gender).

[Scarlet Knight]

Ooooooh! :smallredface:

By the way, surgically changing a gender or choosing a gender, is not sufficient to make one gender "neutral". His DNA will continue to confirm Norrie is male no matter what he disguises himself as. It's not perfect, but as some atheletes have found, it's the best we have in a world where medicine can produce magic.

[Ancalagon]

Can he/she/it also cast fireballs and wears red robes?

[Snake-Aes]

Ooooooh! :smallredface:

By the way, surgically changing a gender or choosing a gender, is not sufficient to make one gender "neutral". His DNA will continue to confirm Norrie is male no matter what he disguises himself as. It's not perfect, but as some atheletes have found, it's the best we have in a world where medicine can produce magic.

That dwells deeply into the ethics and psichology of gender, as the dna alone hardly proves anything once you look at the exceptions.

Regardless... V is not gender neutral. V has a definite gender and orientation, we just happen not to know it.

[Ancalagon]

Regardless... V is not gender neutral. V has a definite gender and orientation, we just happen not to know it.

He has? Origins of PCs indicates he's VERY aware of his own gender-ambiguity and even actively tries to evade the questions about it.
Remember the ink-blob in the "gender" part on the form? And the fact that Vaarsuvius bluntly evaded Roy's question about it indicates Vaarsuvius doesn't want that to be known - why? Because there is no clear answer to the question?

[Snake-Aes]

He has? Origins of PCs indicates he's VERY aware of his own gender-ambiguity and even actively tries to evade the questions about it.
Remember the ink-blob in the "gender" part on the form? And the fact that Vaarsuvius bluntly evaded Roy's question about it indicates Vaarsuvius doesn't want that to be known - why? Because there is no clear answer to the question?

I think it's more plausible that V never cared much about gender differences(V's really aloof to that, and some of his replies about her personal life are as simple as "you never asked") and as so the gender blot was just the running gag.
It makes sense that he's evasive about it...but not because it's unclear, rather because she considers it irrelevant.

[Ikialev]

And it looks absolutely silly, to boot.
I do understand the need for gender-neutral terms in this instance, but c'mon. Zie? Who came up with these and what are they based on?
It sounds like "sie", a german pronoun for "They".

[Snake-Aes]

It sounds like "sie", a german pronoun for "They".

Sie's the formal form of he/she too, so it fits nicely. I don't see why break the spelling tho

[Ikialev]

It's actually informal 'she' and formal 'you'. Also, it's more EZTREME with a Z.

[Ancalagon]

Sie's the formal form of he/she too, so it fits nicely. I don't see why break the spelling tho

No, it's the formal form of "you". It's also possible in most cases to distunguish between "sie" for "them" and "Sie" for "formal you": one has a capital "S", the other does not.

[Ancalagon]

It's actually informal 'she' and formal 'you'. Also, it's more EZTREME with a Z.

There is no german "sie" with a "z".

[Xerxus]

What biological gender you have is entirely dependent upon your genes. XY means that you are biologically a male. So Norrie is (again, biologically) a male. But all other perspectives are subject to human interpretation.

[Ancalagon]

Don't forget that genes are not binary and also don't forget hormones.

It's a gradual shift of gene-distribution and hormone equilibrium that makes you either this or that. But as biological systems are subject to a lot of variation, you can have people who are male by genes but female by horomes and vice versa - and that even assumes a "clear" distribution and distinction the gene-states - something that simply is not that clear in biological system.

If you talk to gay (both male or female) people most will tell you they did not "pick their orientation".

[Xerxus]

The SRY-gene is the only thing determining sex in humans. Look it up

[Ancalagon]

The SRY-gene is the only thing determining sex in humans. Look it up

Biological systems as a whole aren't that simple. Look it up. If you throw psycology and sociology in the mix it gets even better.

[derfenrirwolv]

If this had been biologically caused it might be an interesting analogy for how elves do it, but as it was surgical i can't see that being their model. (especially with polymorphs and girdles available)

[Xerxus]

Yes but Im only talking about the purely biological perspective, as I so subtly implied earlier. :smallwink:

[The Extinguisher]

ITT: People are confusing sex and gender.

[Belkster11]

They aren't. But it can be difficult for people to recognize your pet's gender on the first glance.

All it takes is a glance between the dog/cat's legs. XD And if you didn't want to stick your hand down there, just ask the owner if the dog/cat is a boy/girl.

:D

[Ancalagon]

Yes but Im only talking about the purely biological perspective, as I so subtly implied earlier. :smallwink:

It's not the entire story but it's the entire story that matters.

[Faleldir]

I hope it plays Magic: The Gathering. Then it'd be immune to all cards that say "his or her".

[derfenrirwolv]

All it takes is a glance between the dog/cat's legs. XD And if you didn't want to stick your hand down there, just ask the owner if the dog/cat is a boy/girl.

Well, if a male cats been neutered its probably hard to tell.

[Capt Spanner]

The SRY-gene is the only thing determining sex in humans. Look it up

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions)

There are several ways in which XX- or XY-genotype can lead to either male or female phenotypes. There are also some non-standard versions (XXY, XYY, XXX, X0) which can lead to ambiguously sexed people IRL.


And with snakes it's very hard.

Tell me about it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html)

[Scarlet Knight]

[
There are several ways in which XX- or XY-genotype can lead to either male or female phenotypes. There are also some non-standard versions (XXY, XYY, XXX, X0) which can lead to ambiguously sexed people IRL.


Perhaps these are the exceptions that prove the rule...

[Kish]

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#proves_the_rule

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Ooookay. I thought this was gonna be a natural no-gender. To medically neutralize yourself... c'mon. That's like saying, 'First human with two thumbs on each hand!'

Well... yes, if you chop a finger off and reattach a thumb to the stump you can get it.

Pfftt.


Forget pets, some people get upset when you refer to their cars/boats as "it".
My Grandmother has always had an unnerving tendency to refer to babies as 'its'.

'Aww, bless it!' or 'Ain't it precious'.


And lizards. And chicks. I hear there's actually a job devoted entirely to sexing baby chicks (that means identifying their gender).
*raises hand*

I did that for awhile. If you learn the signs usually don't even have to inspect the undersides. To save money on sexers they're also started creating 'sexlink' breeds that have a distinct color pattern between the hens and roosters as soon as they hatch. Hens go to the laying houses, roosters go to the broilers farms.

What's hard is guineafowl. Even professionals rarely can tell until they are a month old. That's when their voices change. Hens make one sound while the roosters another.

(Yeah, as I've said before, I know entirely too much about poultry)

[ClockShock]

That's like saying, 'First human with two thumbs!'


You mean two thumbs on one hand, right?
Only i hope i'm not a medical marvel for having :: counts :: one, two thumbs.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

You mean two thumbs on one hand, right?
Only i hope i'm not a medical marvel for having :: counts :: one, two thumbs.
You... have one on each hand? Freak :smalleek:

[Scarlet Knight]

(Yeah, as I've said before, I know entirely too much about poultry)

So what should I have with a nice merlot?

[Ceaon]

(...) I hear there's actually a job devoted entirely to sexing baby chicks (...).

A "chick-sexer"?
I would totally be one if it wasn't for the "baby" part.
[/pubescent remark]

[Scarlet Knight]

You... have one on each hand? Freak :smalleek:

I believe that's called being a member of the "metacarpally misaligned " community ....

[maxon]

But also refers to inanimate objects - some people get offended when you call their pets "it."

Pets aren't traditionally gender-neutral, are they?

Nor are they inanimate - at least the last time I checked.