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taltamir
2010-03-18, 07:00 AM
What are some dual progression classes you can enter (and max out) at the cost of only 1 level of your primary casting class. This means the class needs to be 10/10 casting for your primary, and either have obscenely low requirements, or early entry tricks.

Taking said class at a higher level is a valid tactic (ex: be a wizard from level 1-5, take cleric/urpriest at level 6, use some early entry trick to take Mystic theurge from level 7 through 17)

please name the trick used, the method of its use (don't just say "precocious apprentice" explain what precocious is and what it does and how it applies to early entry) the classes, and the sources (if you can, if you can't, just list them and others or myself could look it up and hopefully post that detail).

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 07:27 AM
Both Anima Mage and Eldritch Disciple require only 1 dip into binder/warlock, although the disciple only has 9/10 casting for cleric.

Ernir
2010-03-18, 08:13 AM
If early entry tricks are allowed, I don't think there are many (any?) that require you to lose more than one CL. And that one CL you lose is mostly so that you actually have two classes to progress with your dual-progressing class! :smalltongue:


please name the trick used, the method of its use (don't just say "precocious apprentice" explain what precocious is and what it does and how it applies to early entry) the classes, and the sources (if you can, if you can't, just list them and others or myself could look it up and hopefully post that detail).

Hmm. There isn't a handbook for this? There should be. Because this is a lot of stuff.

Is there any class in particular you'd like to get into? If not, I could make a list...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-18, 08:23 AM
Ultimate Magus (CM) can do it, if you make it an Illumian with the Krau sigil and get Practiced Spellcaster for your spontaneous class. It would typically go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10/ whatever, and since they have the Human subtype you can get Able Learner and keep up those nice Beguiler skills. You can even use Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) to use your Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast situational Wizard spells you've learned.

I'm a big fan of Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant (10), which you could easily use only one level of SA and take Versatile Spellcaster to qualify instead by using SA spell slots to cast any 2nd level Druid spell you know. It doesn't necessarily need all ten AH levels, as once you max out your SA spellcasting you could pick up maybe Seeker of the Misty Isle and even Geomancer. Note you'll need to use an Elf, Outsider, or other race with martial weapon proficiencies to qualify for SA.

You could use early qualification tricks such as Improved Sigil: Krau or Easy Metamagic: Heighten or even Earth Spell to go something like Wizard 9/ Ur-Priest 1/ Mystic Theurge 10, though you'd be better off going 10/2/8 instead.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-18, 08:58 AM
Dread necromancers can do it, provided taint is allowed

Versatile spellcaster + heighten spell + eldritch corruption turns two first level slots into a fourth level spell, for any spontaneous casting.

So a necropolitan dread necromancer 4 / cleric 1 / mystic theurge 10 could totally work.

Although you'd probably progress something else, since rainbow servant is probably a better idea.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-18, 09:51 AM
Both Anima Mage and Eldritch Disciple require only 1 dip into binder/warlock, although the disciple only has 9/10 casting for cleric.
Wizard 1/Anima Mage 10 is possible with 2 Flaws.

Fighter-Bonus-Feat (and probably Focused Specialist; often considered required for the Precocious Apprentice trick) Wizard variant, be human, get Bind Vestige (human feat), Improved Bind Vestige (1st level feat), Precocious Apprentice (first Flaw), any metamagic feat (second Flaw), Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver) ("wizard" bonus feat). Martial Study in Devoted Spirit gives Intimidate as a Class Skill; put 4 ranks in it.

Further, the wording of Anima Mage does cause you to count as a Binder 1 at Wizard 1/Anima Mage 1.

Retraining would allow you to ditch Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige at 6, or at 3 if you retrain one of them into Improved Binding.

If you find a DM that allows this... well, lol, I guess.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:34 AM
It's possible to enter Mystic Theurge with only one level in Wizard (Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist).

Same with Cerebremancer (either using the above or going Wizard 3/Ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester).

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 11:48 AM
Soulcaster (from Magic of Incarnum) can get you into arcane/meldshaper dual-class with NO levels in a meldshaper class, using only feats (though it won't do you much good if you don't have a meldshaper class, so you'll want to see about having at least one level to get any real benefit).

You can do similar things with the soul manifester (it's from The Mind's Eye, 'Psionics of Incarnum' article).

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-03-18, 02:48 PM
Hmm. There isn't a handbook for this?

You are all welcome. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.0)

taltamir
2010-03-18, 07:25 PM
Wizard 1/Anima Mage 10 is possible with 2 Flaws.

but what use is it to take a dual progression class with only one class for it to advance?

Ernir
2010-03-18, 07:57 PM
You are all welcome. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.0)
Awesome. Well, Taltamir, there you go...

but what use is it to take a dual progression class with only one class for it to advance?

The thing about the Anima Mage is that it is phrased in a way that gives you the Soul Binding ability of a 1st level binder if you possess no binding ability prior to entering the class.

Or so I remember it (and DW said so). AFB right now.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 07:59 PM
but what use is it to take a dual progression class with only one class for it to advance?

By some RAW arguments this partially advances your soul binding.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 08:10 PM
By some RAW arguments this partially advances your soul binding.

I completely disagree with those, it's just poorly worded. It's like w/ unseen seer, if you don't have a source of precision damage already, it doesn't do anything.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-18, 08:15 PM
Let's see...

Ultimate Magus is not a 10/10 progression class, so that's out.

Versatile Spellcaster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Spellcaster,all) + Heighten Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Heighten_Spell,all) will fit the 2nd level spells for any spontaneous class (and some spontaneous classes, notably the Beguiler and the Warmage, but any spontaneous arcane caster that knows it's entire list) don't need Heighten Spell to do it at all.

Easy Metamagic (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Easy_Metamagic,all)(Heighten Spell) lets you make Cantrips count as 2nd level spells, for any casting class.

Precocious Apprentice (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Precocious_Apprentice,all) gives a 2nd level spell to any Arcane caster (but can only be taken at 1st).

Sanctum Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sanctum_Spell,all) lets spells on your home turf count as 1 level higher.

The Illuman (Races of Destiny) have the option of Improved Sigil(Karu) - which lets them select a handful of spells they know to be permanently treated as one level higher (with limits, see the original source).

As the highest level power known of the Erudite (Complete Psionic) is based on manifester level, not class level, the Practiced Manifester (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Manifester,all)(Erudite) can get you 2nd, or even 3rd, level powers known.

Earth Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Earth_Spell,all) makes Heighten Spell work more.

Everything above this line, in one way or another, effectively grants 2nd level spells (or 2nd level powers known) ahead of schedule (even though some of them are just heightened versions of lower-level spells) - and at that, I'm probably missing quite a few (and Ninja'd by about three pages, I imagine).

What dual-progression classes require 2nd level spells/powers in two classes? Most of them. Mystic Theurge is Arcane/Divine (and is Core). Cerebremancer (Expanded Psionic Handbook) is Arcane/Manifesting. Arcane Heirophant (Races of the Wild... or was that Complete Divine?) is Druid/Arcane (although you'll need a fair number of Druid levels to qualify due to other requirements). There's plenty of others.

lsfreak
2010-03-18, 08:44 PM
I completely disagree with those, it's just poorly worded. It's like w/ unseen seer, if you don't have a source of precision damage already, it doesn't do anything.

It's actually perfectly clear that it does grant binder progression even if you didn't have it before. Though that doesn't stop it form being one of those cases that I would suggest RAW be thrown out and common sense take over.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 08:57 PM
It's actually perfectly clear that it does grant binder progression even if you didn't have it before. Though that doesn't stop it form being one of those cases that I would suggest RAW be thrown out and common sense take over.

Oh, so it does, I could of sworn I saw an 'additional' in there before... :smallfrown:

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 12:30 AM
Yeah, considering that even with the traditional entry (Wizard 3/Binder 1 with Improved Binding), it's a quite solid class, cheesing early entry really just seems abusive.

But avoiding Binder altogether definitely works by RAW.

Actually, the dodgiest part of my build is the Intimidate ranks. Technically, class features are the last thing you apply on a level-up. Which means you get the Martial Spirit feat (which is a bonus feat from the class) after you've spent your skill points - and until you get that feat Intimidate is cross-class.

This would mean that by the strictest RAW (and honestly, there's no point to the build if we're not doing it that way, since RAMS would throw out the whole build altogether) you would need to be Wizard 2/Anima Mage X, not Wizard 1. If anyone knows of a Wizard ACF that grants Intimidate as a class skill, though, that would work.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-19, 12:31 AM
I like Cleric / Ardent and Psychic Theurge.

Just take practiced manifester, and you're golden.

Thurbane
2010-03-19, 12:36 AM
I can't believe the worded it to leave it so blatantly open to abuse:


Special: Ability to bind a 2nd-level vestige


Soul Binding Bonus: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your anima mage levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 12:41 AM
Yup. I was shocked when I discovered it - I had actually looked it up to disprove the ability to use those feats and still get Binder progression.

This never would have happened if there had been more than one Pact-making class, ya know. Cuz then they would have used the standard template "existing Pact-making class" and this would have all been avoided. The fact that they specifically call out the Binder class is actually troublesome in the sense that it would have been impossible (without Errata or some similar note) to effectively make alternative Pact-making base classes that were still compatible with those PrCs.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-19, 01:03 AM
I can't believe the worded it to leave it so blatantly open to abuse:

Wait, that means that with no levels in binder, and 10 in anima mage, you're effectively a level 20 binder?

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 01:04 AM
Uhhh... no? You'd be a level 10 Binder, yes. And a level 11 or 12 Wizard.

peacenlove
2010-03-19, 01:17 AM
If anyone knows of a Wizard ACF that grants Intimidate as a class skill, though, that would work.

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enchanterVariants)

taltamir
2010-03-19, 07:02 AM
Uhhh... no? You'd be a level 10 Binder, yes. And a level 11 or 12 Wizard.

thats awesome! This is what I now want to do :)
Anima Mage FTW!

tarbrush
2010-03-19, 08:45 AM
Wizard5/Knight of the weave1 gets you into ultimate magus, and because of the way KotW CL is calculated it always advances your wizard casting.

Petrocorus
2010-03-19, 10:05 AM
It's possible to enter Mystic Theurge with only one level in Wizard (Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist).


It works with domain wizard and/or elven generalist.



You are all welcome. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.0)

I love you.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-19, 10:14 AM
Let's see...

Ultimate Magus is not a 10/10 progression class, so that's out.


What are some dual progression classes you can enter (and max out) at the cost of only 1 level of your primary casting class.

So Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 with Practiced Spellcaster(Beguiler). Beguiler is CL 5 versus Wizard's CL 4. Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/UM 4 rolls around. Beguiler is CL 8 versus Wizard's CL 7, so Wizard gets the boost. Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/UM 9 rolls around. Beguiler is CL 13 to the Wizard's CL 13. You now get to choose which one to boost(pick Wizard).

Cost: 1 caster level(Beguiler). Result: Beguiler 9/Wizard 14.

Fully fulfills the criteria put forth by the OP.

Petrocorus
2010-03-19, 10:34 AM
So Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 with Practiced Spellcaster(Beguiler). Beguiler is CL 5 versus Wizard's CL 4. Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/UM 4 rolls around. Beguiler is CL 8 versus Wizard's CL 7, so Wizard gets the boost. Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/UM 9 rolls around. Beguiler is CL 13 to the Wizard's CL 13. You now get to choose which one to boost(pick Wizard).

Cost: 1 caster level(Beguiler). Result: Beguiler 9/Wizard 14.

Fully fulfills the criteria put forth by the OP.

Wait?
After Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/UM 1, Both you CL are 5 so when you reach UM 4 you have to chose and so if you chose Wiz, when you reach UM 7 the bonus goes to beguiler.

Pluto
2010-03-19, 10:52 AM
Wait?
After Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/UM 1, Both you CL are 5 so when you reach UM 4 you have to chose and so if you chose Wiz, when you reach UM 7 the bonus goes to beguiler.Yeah.
It needs Illumian to work right.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-19, 11:08 AM
Wait, that means that with no levels in binder, and 10 in anima mage, you're effectively a level 20 binder?

No. You end up around level 12 binder (assuming you added the 10 binder levels from anima mage and then added the feat to add 2). How do you figure a result of 20?