If I wanted to shoot arrows...

[The Rabbler]

Recently I realized that all I ever play is melee classes and even with ToB, I've started getting bored with them. Because I refuse to play primary casters (I like doing well without being able to break the world), I decided to look into ranged weapon users.

So, finding myself hopelessly lost, I have decided to ask the playground.

How might I make a ranged weapon user which could put out some respectable damage and stay fairly untouchable?

I'm looking for something that's awesome because it has a way to combat any challenge. I've heard that straight-up ranger is fairly respectable because of the spells from the SpC, but I haven't really looked into it.

[Flickerdart]

Scout, Greater Manyshot. Add your Skirmish to every arrow.

[Lord of Syntax]

Petal Hellfire Warlocks are made of so much win, just add Legacy Champion levels to taste.

[Sinfire Titan]

Compromise: Make a Tiger Claw Warblade who wields a Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow (Secrets of Sarlona). Some of the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind maneuvers work with ranged attacks, and you always have a melee option if needed.

[Tinydwarfman]

Pff, Real men shoot arrows from their fists!

[Gaiyamato]

Pff, Real men shoot arrows from their fists!

Oh for sure!

[The Rabbler]

Compromise: Make a Tiger Claw Warblade who wields a Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow (Secrets of Sarlona). Some of the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind maneuvers work with ranged attacks, and you always have a melee option if needed.

given the option, I'd probably revert to just using the maneuvers for melee damage. ruby nightmare blade holds a special place in my heart.

I'd much rather have a build that would allow me little to no option of melee; and i've been told that a good way of doing that might be master thrower, but I don't know enough about it to make a decision.

[Temotei]

Pff, Real men shoot arrows from their fists!

Agreed. :smallcool:

[The Rabbler]

Pff, Real men shoot arrows from their fists!

I would... but my group is a bit angry with me since my warforged plasma cannon.

[senrath]

given the option, I'd probably revert to just using the maneuvers for melee damage. ruby nightmare blade holds a special place in my heart.

I'd much rather have a build that would allow me little to no option of melee; and i've been told that a good way of doing that might be master thrower, but I don't know enough about it to make a decision.

Make a Hulking Hurler, and just throw everything in your inventory (and around you) at your enemies.

[Optimystik]

Soulbow; Because psionic railguns are awesome. :smallamused:

[lsfreak]

Cloistered Cleric/Scout/Ranger (1/3/16, not necessarily in that order), grabbing Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Travel Devotion, and Rapid Shot as your fundamental feats. Move and still be able to rapid shot with full skirmish bonuses, plus a few ranger spells.

The 3.0 prestige classes Peerless Archer, Deepwoods Sniper, and Order of the Bow Initiate are all decent pure-martial versions. Get at least 4 levels of fighter in there so you can get Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHB2).

[The Rabbler]

Cloistered Cleric/Scout/Ranger (1/3/16, not necessarily in that order), grabbing Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Travel Devotion, and Rapid Shot as your fundamental feats. Move and still be able to rapid shot with full skirmish bonuses, plus a few ranger spells.

The 3.0 prestige classes Peerless Archer, Deepwoods Sniper, and Order of the Bow Initiate are all decent pure-martial versions. Get at least 4 levels of fighter in there so you can get Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHB2).

now this is closer to what i had in mind. I'll have to look at the PrCs, but I know my DM accepts them.

also, is there any way to get a 10' step? i remember some boots from MIC being able to do it 3/day or something like that; is there a way to do that through feats or skill tricks? full attacks with multishot and skirmish are very appealing.

[Pluto]

Just throwing out some ideas:

My favorite archers are Cloistered Clerics, Artificers and Unseen Seers.

But if you don't want a bona fide casting class, Mystic Ranger is good (from Dragon magazine; you can find it on crystalkeep.com), possibly going Swift Hunter for skirmish dice. With Champions of Ruin and Spell Compendium, Ranger casting is very neat.

I like going into Master of the Unseen Hand with my non-casting archers. Because it's neat. It pretty much requires Gith and LA buyoff, though.

If homebrew's allowed, the Sublime Way Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger) is relatively well known and well-designed.

Beyond that, I'd probably lean toward Psychic Warrior. (It can do anything well.)

[Fawsto]

I will seccond the Scout Option.

Hell, it will even increase your AC after a while.

[Mando Knight]

I would... but my group is a bit angry with me since my warforged plasma cannon.

Did it fire out of his chest, hands, or shoulders? If the former, did you have Black Sabbath's "Iron Man" riff as your theme song? If the latter, did you shout DUUUAAAH! ...VOL-TE-KKAAAAAH!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eqVWn59SQ) at the top of your lungs every time it went off successfully?

If not, then you probably need to make your Warforged more awesome.

[Pluto]

also, is there any way to get a 10' step? i remember some boots from MIC being able to do it 3/day or something like that; is there a way to do that through feats or skill tricks? full attacks with multishot and skirmish are very appealing.
Personman made a pretty good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Good enough that I don't try to list the ways anymore.

[The Rabbler]

Did it fire out of his chest, hands, or shoulders? If the former, did you have Black Sabbath's "Iron Man" riff as your theme song? If the latter, did you shout DUUUAAAH! ...VOL-TE-KKAAAAAH!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eqVWn59SQ) at the top of your lungs every time it went off successfully?

If not, then you probably need to make your Warforged more awesome.

unfortunately, it was just throwing some flashy damage onto a lightning throw with a battlefist; though i did manage to make the BBEG facepalm a few times.

[The Rabbler]

Personman made a pretty good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Good enough that I don't try to list the ways anymore.

and there it is, the DC 40 tumble for a 10' step. thanks for the link.

[gorfnab]

Consider maybe doing a Swift Hunter (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872750/The_Swift_Hunters_Handbook_--_2007) build.

[IthilanorStPete]

Seconding the Cloistered Cleric suggestions. You can grab Zen Archery to use Wis instead of Dex for your to-hit, and you've got the Knowledges for Knowledge Devotion. Chaos Devotion can be pretty good too. I'd also seriously consider Warblade...the Mongoose boosts and Time Stands Still = lots and lots of attacks, which is what you want.

[Eldariel]

I love Ranger/Warblade/Eternal Blade. Everything is better with Elves. And ToB helps as much as ever in making life not-boring. Add Manyshot & few maneuvers and profit.

Other than that, you can make a decent martial Archer-build with Ranger/Pious Templar/etc. or by using 3.0 classes (Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate [3.0 version doesn't suck]), though they're kinda light on options. Of course, Rogue with UMD makes for a nice archer too. And Swift Hunter is alright...except restricted to ~30' ranges, which sucks (Rogue can use Wands of Sniper's Shot to get around similar SA limitation).


And of course, caster Archers are all pretty strong; Cloistered Cleric, Psychic Warrior, Psion/Slayer, Bard/Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord/Sacred Exorcist, etc. But if you didn't want casters, I guess those don't interest you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger build with a one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Domain. This lets you blow a Turn Attempt for a free Move Action, so you get your 10' move, and still have your full attack.

Failing that, Greater Manyshot lets you add your skirmish damage to every shot, as a standard action.

[Shpadoinkle]

I would... but my group is a bit angry with me since my warforged plasma cannon.

You made Mega Man?

[Heliomance]

Look up the Archery Handbook on brilliantgameologists.com. Also, remember that the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate is a good class. The 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate is not.

[GolemsVoice]

Maybe add some rogue levels in there for extra sneak attack. It never hurts. Well, it DOES, but that's the point.

[katans]

I'd second Swift Hunter. For a more high fantasy version, Cloistered Cleric dipping into Soulbow. Throw in Zen archery and a Monk's belt for Wis to attack, damage, AC and spells.

[Greenish]

Soulbow; Because psionic railguns are awesome. :smallamused:So I see mentioned, but on a quick glance the PrC doesn't look like much. Sure, it's an improvement on soulblade, but that doesn't say much.

It doesn't have any role beyond damage, and d8+Wis per shot on medium BAB is not anything to write home about. All I see it has going for it is nice SAD, so am I missing something?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So I see mentioned, but on a quick glance the PrC doesn't look like much. Sure, it's an improvement on soulblade, but that doesn't say much.

It doesn't have any role beyond damage, and d8+Wis per shot on medium BAB is not anything to write home about. All I see it has going for it is nice SAD, so am I missing something?

No, that's about all it does. Maybe go something like Nonpsionic Thri-Kreen (LA +1, 2 HD) Monk 1/ Soulknife 2/ Soulbow X, with (Improved, Greater) Multiweapon Fighting. Put Lucky on each of your Mind Arrows so each miss will get a second chance to hit. You could even go VoP with this, but then you'd have to use something like Starspawn to get flight.

The two highest damage archer builds are the Cleric Archer and the Fighter Archer. Cleric mostly uses its spells to buff itself, and to solve any problems that it can't shoot a bow at. Fighter Archer is just as limited as any other Fighter build, and like the Soulbow is only good at dealing damage.

I'd say go with a Mystic Ranger (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) (page 91), probably taking enough Scout levels to get Swift Hunter. If you can use FR material, pick up the feat Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor, which allows you to use a spellbook to prepare Wizard spells in your Ranger spell slots.

[Ossian]

Nothing beats the original (barbed wire all over the body? priceless...) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIGeIiQbjMU)


May I step in with just a curiosity though? Why the cloistered cleric? Am I missing something out in the class description? (lots of skill points, but so do other classes)

Cheers,

Ossian.

[Curmudgeon]

The Cloistered Cleric dip is there explicitly to get Travel Devotion, which allows moving up to your speed as a swift action for 10 consecutive rounds. Burning undead attempts will get you more uses, and a Cleric with CHA 12 is good for 3 encounters/day. This is one way to solve the 10' move + full attack problem, but it trades that for the multiclassing XP penalty problem if you add 2 other base classes.

[Eldan]

If your group allows homebrew, you could head over to the homebrew forum. Currently, on the top page, there are there ToB archery disciplines, one for speed, one for precision and one for energy damage.

[electricbee]

Be sure to consider spell storing +1 arrows (and possibly a cohort sorcerer to enchant them). +18d6 fire damage per projectile is pretty sweet for a 2nd level spell with a 12th level caster.

[Curmudgeon]

Be sure to consider spell storing +1 arrows
That doesn't work, for multiple reasons.
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless Kind of hard for a destroyed arrow to do anything.
Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. You're not wielding an arrow after it leaves your bow. In fact, the creature the fragments of useless arrow are embedded in would have to be considered its wielder, if anyone is.

[Heliomance]

On the other hand, spell-storing arrows are hardly broken, and he could always ask his DM nicely if they work in his world.

[Curmudgeon]

On the other hand, spell-storing arrows are hardly broken
ammunition that hits its target is destroyed
You made a funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Mongoose87]

Unarmed Swordsage+Bloodstorm Blade = Monk who shoots his fists at people.

[electricbee]

The only copy of the SRD I can access at work allows it. When weapon strikes you can activate as a free action is the verbiage here. And yes it can readily be broken when an archer with rapid and or many shot can throw out low level spells far faster than the game intended. But I think it is RAW legal.

[Curmudgeon]

The only copy of the SRD I can access at work allows it. ...
But I think it is RAW legal.
You should check the actual Dungeon Master's Guide on page 225 instead, and probably forget about that version of the SRD if it differs so significantly from the real rules of the game.

[Optimystik]

So I see mentioned, but on a quick glance the PrC doesn't look like much. Sure, it's an improvement on soulblade, but that doesn't say much.

It doesn't have any role beyond damage, and d8+Wis per shot on medium BAB is not anything to write home about. All I see it has going for it is nice SAD, so am I missing something?

No role beyond damage? Isn't that what an archer is for? :smallconfused:

Zen Archery (Wis to attack and damage), then dip something for Wis to AC. You are now effectively SAD.
It can also shoot through AMFs, keeping all your enhancements - try that with a regular magic bow. Since Wis is your primary stat, the Will save is cake.
Soulbow gets 5 bonus feats, all taken from a list very conducive to archery (get goodies like [Greater] Psionic Shot, Rapid Shot, [Greater] Manyshot, Shot on the Run etc.)
And of course, it's one of the few classes that actually works with VoP.

Is there a handbook for this baby anywhere? I might work on one if not.

[Ormagoden]

Pff, Real men warforged shoot arrows from their fists!

Fixed that for you!

[Greenish]

No role beyond damage? Isn't that what an archer is for? :smallconfused:Yes, which is why Soulbow doesn't look so good to me. I don't know what shenanigans could be used to pump up the damage though.

Zen Archery (Wis to attack and damage), then dip something for Wis to AC. You are now effectively SAD.
It can also shoot through AMFs, keeping all your enhancements - try that with a regular magic bow. Since Wis is your primary stat, the Will save is cake.Yeah, being SAD is nice, but shooting through AMF seems extremely situational.

Soulbow gets 5 bonus feats, all taken from a list very conducive to archery (get goodies like [Greater] Psionic Shot, Rapid Shot, [Greater] Manyshot, Shot on the Run etc.)
And of course, it's one of the few classes that actually works with VoP.Extra feats is good, but archery build is very feat hungry.

Is there a handbook for this baby anywhere? I might work on one if not.I haven't found any, and I've been looking for one, since the class has a nice feel to it, but I have hard time figuring how to make it work adequately. (Results of my newbishm, no doubt.) So I for one would be grateful for a handbook. :smallcool:

[Optimystik]

Fixed that for you!

ROCKET PUNCH!


Yes, which is why Soulbow doesn't look so good to me. I don't know what shenanigans could be used to pump up the damage though.

Pump Wis, moar arrows dakka :smalltongue:

Okay, I'll be helpful. A nice trick you can do with this class uses Psychic Warrior, and the Soulknife ACFs available on Mind's Eye. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

Use the first soulknife variant to trade Wild Talent for Hidden Talent, letting you learn a power. The second variant gives you bonus feats instead of Psychic Strike (which is fine, because it sucks.)

If you are a Kalashtar, take the racial substitution level instead of Hidden Talent, so that you can align your mind blade.

So your build will be:

HT+Feat Soulknife 3/Psywar 2 (for feats/powers)/Soulbow 10 (Level 15)

By level 5 you will have 3 bonus feats (that's 6 total for humans, before flaws), 3 powers known and 3PP + Wis bonus + racial bonus. That should be enough to boost your archery considerably.


Extra feats is good, but archery build is very feat hungry.

For even more feats, take the Soulknife variant that trades Psychic Strike for feats (see above.)

[Flawless]

Be sure to consider spell storing +1 arrows (and possibly a cohort sorcerer to enchant them). +18d6 fire damage per projectile is pretty sweet for a 2nd level spell with a 12th level caster.

I don't think that'll work, because spell storing is melee weapon only enchantment.

[Optimystik]

Addition to my build above: Soulbow itself will give you 5 more bonus feats on top of the 3 you gain while qualifying for it. That's 8 bonus feats by level 15 - the same amount a straight Fighter gets!

Add flaws and you go up to 10. Enjoy your archery!

[Greenish]

Addition to my build above: Soulbow itself will give you 5 more bonus feats on top of the 3 you gain while qualifying for it. That's 8 bonus feats by level 15 - the same amount a straight Fighter gets!

Add flaws and you go up to 10. Enjoy your archery!Hmm, that's pretty cool. Any way to get Imp. Precise Shot or some equivalent without pumping Dex to 19?

[Person_Man]

FYI, archery builds tend to be even more boring then melee builds, because you have to sink 6ish feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Greater Manyshot, Swift Hunter) to be half decent at it. I honestly don't understand how you could find ToB boring, though to each their own. Have you considered Incarnate, Totemist, Psychic Warrior, Binder, or Factotum?

[lsfreak]

Yes, which is why Soulbow doesn't look so good to me. I don't know what shenanigans could be used to pump up the damage though.

According to Soulbow itself, you can make your arrows Lucky (normally 1/day melee-only enhancement, reroll a missed attack roll after you know it's missed). Since it's now on the arrow, though, each one gets a 1/day reroll.

Granted, archers tend to have the opposite problem - not enough ways of turning +atk into +dmg. Between things like Knowledge Devotion and Woodland Archer, your attack rolls will probably be fairly high.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I propose a totemist ranged build using manticore's belt.!!!!

[Greenish]

I propose a totemist ranged build using manticore's belt.!!!!I propose a totemist ranged build without Manticore's Belt!

Figuring out how that would work is left as an exercise for the reader.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Actually...

Race: Thri-Kreen (You read that right. Thri-Kreen)
Classes: Monster HD 1/Monk 1/Hunter Barbarian 6/Champion of the Wild Ranger 4/Soulknife 3/Soulbow 5

Feats minus required: Greater Manyshot, Unorthodox Flurry (Mind Arrow)

Fire a Flurry of Blows with your Mind Arrows and Greater Manyshot with them. can someone say "Living Shotgun"?

[Optimystik]

Granted, archers tend to have the opposite problem - not enough ways of turning +atk into +dmg.

In addition to Wis to damage, Soulbows also get the Psionic Shot line, Manyshot, Rapid Shot etc.

4 levels of Sonokineticist at the end of my build also lets you fire sonic arrows that can break objects; this is in addition to all the other enhancements that you can put on your arrows.

Not to mention Phase Arrow, which lets you completely ignore cover/concealment (though you can only fire one per round.)

[Pluto]

I propose a totemist ranged build without Manticore's Belt!
With an 18-level Swift Hunter dip? That just might work!

[LichPrinceAlim]

With an 18-level Swift Hunter dip? That just might work!

too much work for very little punch. Seriously. Just listen to my build and blow up
EVERYTHING

[Heliomance]

Actually...

Race: Thri-Kreen (You read that right. Thri-Kreen)
Classes: Monster HD 1/Monk 1/Hunter Barbarian 6/Champion of the Wild Ranger 4/Soulknife 3/Soulbow 5

Feats minus required: Greater Manyshot, Unorthodox Flurry (Mind Arrow)

Fire a Flurry of Blows with your Mind Arrows and Greater Manyshot with them. can someone say "Living Shotgun"?

1) Thri-Kreen is 2HD, not 1. Also, I believe it has 3LA, 2 if it's the non-psionic variant.
2) Where's Unorthodox Flurry from?
3) What on earth is the point in being a Thri-Kreen anyway?

[Math_Mage]

According to Soulbow itself, you can make your arrows Lucky (normally 1/day melee-only enhancement, reroll a missed attack roll after you know it's missed). Since it's now on the arrow, though, each one gets a 1/day reroll.

Granted, archers tend to have the opposite problem - not enough ways of turning +atk into +dmg. Between things like Knowledge Devotion and Woodland Archer, your attack rolls will probably be fairly high.

Er, Manyshot = trade up to -8 ATK for up to x4 DMG. Rapid shot--another multiple. Greater Manyshot lets you stack precision damage on top of that. And we haven't gotten to iteratives yet. It doesn't give you large amounts of *base* damage, but all those arrows add up. I don't know what besides a composite/enchanted bow might add damage to each individual attack, tho.

[lsfreak]

Er, Manyshot = trade up to -8 ATK for up to x4 DMG. Rapid shot--another multiple. Greater Manyshot lets you stack precision damage on top of that. And we haven't gotten to iteratives yet. It doesn't give you large amounts of *base* damage, but all those arrows add up. I don't know what besides a composite/enchanted bow might add damage to each individual attack, tho.

You have to pick either Rapid Shot or Manyshot. You can't combine the two. While this does add damage, it's not a lot whenyour arrows don't do a whole lot of damage themselves. I was talking specifically in the context of Soulbow (and to a lesser extent, all non-precision archers), so skirmish/sneak attack is out with Greater Manyshot; precision archers don't have as much of a problem with this because each arrow already does enough damage to warrant pumping +atk. Soulbows, fighter/barb-based archers, and the like, though, want something to knock your +atk down and your +dmg up, like Power AttackShot. Soulbow can't get the Force Bow, so they're stuck with Peerless Archer, and would probably be worthwhile to do so if you're able to reroll every miss. But that doesn't kick in until rather late (Soulblade1/Fighter4/Soulbow6/Peerless3 would be the earliest without cutting into Soulbow progression, which is rather late in the game).

[LichPrinceAlim]

1) Thri-Kreen is 2HD, not 1. Also, I believe it has 3LA, 2 if it's the non-psionic variant.
2) Where's Unorthodox Flurry from?
3) What on earth is the point in being a Thri-Kreen anyway?

1. According to Savage Species, its 2la for Psi, 1 for non
2. Dragon Magazine Compendium. It lets you FoB with any weapon you have proficiency in
3. 4 arms + FoB on each (Multiweapon tree) + Greater Manyshot + Soulbow = LOTS of arrows