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Zonack
2010-03-19, 02:57 AM
Hey guys, again bothering you for advice.

I just made a 4E Lawful Evil (We are using the old alignment system, just like AD&D, 3rd and 3.5 editions) Dwarven Barbarian.

I am in a homebrewed world and I choosed to make some kind of whacky background.
Despite I am a Dwarven Barbarian I made him sort of a... Paladin/Avenger (Roleplay wise) of the god : The Tree of Death.

There's the Tree of Life and the Tree of Death they are Lawful Good and Lawful Evil gods, however they control the cycle of life in the world.
The Tree of Death is harsh but fair, he claims the souls of the people whose time has come (I think he's kinda like the Raven Queen of the 4E handbook).

So it's like The Tree of Natural death I guess Undeads are abominations that cheat death and must be destroyed.

So I rolled a Lawful Evil Barbarian that served as a ''pawn'' of a high priest of that god.
He tells me what souls need to be put to rest and I do the deed.
So I am kinda like an Executioner of the Tree of Death.

However, I don't pray to the god, I respect it just like I respect all the other gods I don't do anything a paladin/Cleric/avenger/invoker would do I guess.

I don't pray, I don't really care if I don't manage to visit the temple of the god etc.
The only thing I do is wish the tree of death extends my life as long as it possible so I can continue doing what I do.
I don't ask questions, I just grab my axe and execute those my priest tells me to and just by doing that I believe I am doing the right thing.
Plain and Simple
I draw my primal powers from the Tree of Death cause hes also the god of Death and Nature, so well it made sense to draw my power from the spirits of the dead.

However being a Dwarven Barbarian...
The question here would be.. if the alignment is correct? I mean the examples that I have seen of... well TRUE Lawful Evil guys are kings, barons, counts, demons etc.
In the real world.. well Hitler and Napoleon and maybe Genghis Khan.

So well I just realized that in ALL Those fictional and real characters there is one thing in common.

They are all leaders/kings.

So they follow the rules, but rules they make, they don't have to speak for their actions cause there is none to speak to.
And well being the ''pawn'' I am... probably I am do right cause I follow the rules that my deity/high priest dictates.... but then again I am a barbarian, I mean as a Lawful Evil, rules are basical, rules are the base of society, working by the rules you achieve your power?
That's what I have been understanding, that and well I don't think that alignment really fits for a Barbarian...

Or what do you guys think?

PS. I am still a noob with some alignments, so correct me if what I have learned about Lawful Evil is wrong, PLEASE do.

Saintheart
2010-03-19, 03:02 AM
Short definition of Lawful Evil: cares about order, tradition, and law but not about freedom or life. Doesn't have to be a king or a ruler to be lawful evil, though for some odd reason a lot of them seem to go that way.

Lawful Evil is the archetypical 'principled villain': he might not kill innocents but he's not averse to letting his underlings do it for him.

pasko77
2010-03-19, 03:10 AM
Leaders don't really need be lawful, since, as you correctly noted... they make the rules :)

Lawful simply means "you believe in the order of things as it has been taught to you, and see society as superior to freedom". A lawful person is simply someone who won't bend the rules to help friends.

As for the "evil" bit, well we know that d&d morality is arbitrary, so good guys kill people and still are "good" (meh).

Zergrusheddie
2010-03-19, 03:14 AM
Just think: "What would Asmodeus do?"

Lawful Evil is really interesting to play because you have the honor bound 'respect' of a Paladin but with a desire to conquer everything. Ever see the Wishmaster movies? The Genie would be Lawful Evil: he grants you exactly what you wished for. Want a new car? One turns up in your driveway and the police come to arrest you for car theft. If all else fails, just think of this (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2004-03-24).

Zonack
2010-03-19, 03:22 AM
Just think: "What would Asmodeus do?"

Lawful Evil is really interesting to play because you have the honor bound 'respect' of a Paladin but with a desire to conquer everything. Ever see the Wishmaster movies? The Genie would be Lawful Evil: he grants you exactly what you wished for. Want a new car? One turns up in your driveway and the police come to arrest you for car theft. If all else fails, just think of this (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2004-03-24).

Funny, I just saw that picture...
Well I guess I can do all that but I think that enters in conflict with the Barbarian.... maybe if something happens and if I display of rage I break an X number of rules?

Superglucose
2010-03-19, 03:28 AM
Short version: schemes to put yourself on top, often (maybe even usually) by shoving everyone else around you down.

Long version:

Let's say I wanted to become Emperor. If I was Lawful Evil I might start out by pretending that I was acting in the best interests of the people. I might even incite street violence and start the underpinnings of what could grow to be a civil war.

As the violence comes to a head, I might stage an argument between one of my cronies and a known enemy, hopefully one that ends lethally so I can capitalize on it as a propaganda moment. Even more, I'll probably capitalize on current economic problems and play the fears of the people by turning the blame to an ethnic group... say... the Elves. It will be the Elves' fault that our empire is stagnating, that our friend was shot, and that there is so much street violence! The Elves are instigating it all because they want to topple us as the dominant species!

With more and more people supporting me (after all, I know the problems they face, I have been unjustly imprisoned by the unfair government they're lashing out against, not to mention I've helped uncover this Elven conspiracy to take their jobs and leave them starving), I'll politically strong-arm my way into a position of power.

Now that I have a bit of power, I'll use my influence politically and in the underground to elliminate any guilds or organizations that might possibly oppose me: the Mage's Guild is run almost exclusively by Elves, so that'll have to go. The Dwarven Fighter's Guild is also dangerous: no one but humans should have weapons in a Human empire, of course! Perhaps even some of the more radical churches could be persuaded to leave the country. At the same time I'll be busily indoctrinating kids from the age of 6 and up in basically my image.

Finally, with the major power centers out of the way, I'll simply execute any individual who dares disagree with my policies. After all, no one with any real power is left to contradict me. I'll then draft everyone into the army, proceed to take over most of Europa and attempt to kill all the Elves in order to keep my people focused in their hatred of anyone who doesn't look, talk, think, walk, or above all look exactly like them!

cheezewizz2000
2010-03-19, 03:34 AM
Playing lawful evil as an underling (in your case, the underling of a god) is actually really easy to do. Do exactly as you are told, do it to the letter and put down anyone who gets in your way. The diference between this and Chaotic Evil is that a chaotic person would destroy his obstacles totally and utterly, and would probably get distracted in doing so. The Lawful Evil underling uses only the minimum amount of force to make them not a problem anymore, and then continues. That's where your rage comes in: if hitting them with your big axe doesn't work, you ramp up the power a bit and rage.

Both evils can plan to take down the person who is telling them what to do, but while the chaotic guy dreams of killing his master and bathing in his entrails, the lawful one will probably have a long term plan to userp his master's position. So there's a long-term goal for you. Rather than kow-tow to the Tree of Death, find a way to BECOME the Tree of Death. Arbiter of who dies, sound like a sweet gig to you?

If paladins start to get all up in your grill, just apply the nuremburg defence "I was told to do it".

Agrippa
2010-03-19, 03:35 AM
Play him as cruel, ruthless and brutal yet with a strong sense of societal obligation and belief in the importance of the group over the individual. He will not bend or break either the law, customs or rules of his organization purely for personal gain or out of friendship. He will however violate the law and the rights of others to maintain good order and discipline. Basically a civic minded thug or exploiter. He doesn't exploit people for his own power but for that of the State or Society as a whole

Soonerdj
2010-03-19, 03:36 AM
Lawful Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil) This is all you really need :P

Zonack
2010-03-19, 03:46 AM
Wow, great answers guys, this should help a lot!
Thanks!!!

jpreem
2010-03-19, 04:34 AM
Lawful Barbarian shouldnt even be RAW

Riffington
2010-03-19, 04:34 AM
However being a Dwarven Barbarian...
The question here would be.. if the alignment is correct? I mean the examples that I have seen of... well TRUE Lawful Evil guys are kings, barons, counts, demons etc.
In the real world.. well Hitler and Napoleon and maybe Genghis Khan.

So well I just realized that in ALL Those fictional and real characters there is one thing in common.

They are all leaders/kings.

So they follow the rules, but rules they make, they don't have to speak for their actions cause there is none to speak to.
And well being the ''pawn'' I am... probably I am do right cause I follow the rules that my deity/high priest dictates.... but then again I am a barbarian, I mean as a Lawful Evil, rules are basical, rules are the base of society, working by the rules you achieve your power?
That's what I have been understanding, that and well I don't think that alignment really fits for a Barbarian...


You are doing it exactly right.
It's dumb that the examples are kings because it's actually harder to tell a King's alignment than anyone else's.
As an underling - you are doing what your deity/priest says, you don't care if it's good or bad (and plenty of those orders are evil), you just follow orders. Hence, Lawful Evil is perfect for you.
As a barbarian... well, there's lawful and chaotic people in every society. Even a barbarian society. If you follow the customs of your tribe better than the average member of your tribe, and have at least a little respect for other leaders... you can easily be a Lawful barbarian.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-19, 04:41 AM
Lawful Barbarian shouldnt even be RAWIt's a 4th edition game where the old alignment system is still used for whatever useless thing the group wants it for.
The barbarian in 4th edition has no alignement requirement (no class has it).

RandomLunatic
2010-03-19, 10:34 AM
http://www.cold-moon.com/images/Motivators/Alignments/LawfulEvil1.jpg

Any questions?

Ravens_cry
2010-03-19, 11:06 AM
A prime minister who convinces kings to make a law to wipe out the queens people because her uncle was following an independent code would be an example of Lawful Evil.
A mercenary who only cares about the money, and just does the job, no matter what, is another example. One who enjoys it could be still another.
Someone who takes a crusade of vengeance or retribution too far could also be considered to be Lawful Evil.
And an obfuscating bureaucrat who is intentionally obfuscating could also be considered the type.
And someone who tortures people for his government then goes home to their family is still another.

Lawful Evil, like all alignments, is a flexible thing.

Superglucose
2010-03-19, 11:48 AM
A mercenary who only cares about the money, and just does the job, no matter what, is another example. One who enjoys it could be still another.
That's more neutral evil.



Someone who takes a crusade of vengeance or retribution too far could also be considered to be Lawful Evil.
Or just evil. Pursuing retribution and vengeance fits well across the lawful/chaotic spectrum.


And an obfuscating bureaucrat who is intentionally obfuscating could also be considered the type.
That strikes me more as just a politician and "harr harr all politicians" jokes aside, not so much "evil" as "deceptive." Good and Neutral can be deceptive as well... what about a benevolent king who has to make tough decisions, so he hides them from his people? Or a neutral person who just doesn't like telling the truth?



And someone who tortures people for his government then goes home to their family is still another.

This strikes me as closer to CE than LE.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 01:14 PM
This strikes me as closer to CE than LE.

No its more lawful, torture for the sake of torture or simply because you enjoy it is a chaotic evil act. However if you believe torture must have an expressed purpose and goal such as you do it s your job interrogating for your government. That is lawful evil.

Did you ever see the movie Serenity? the agent from that film is a great example of lawful evil. But there can be many different kinds of LE.


Here's one from a webcomic, a guy gets someone at Kinkos to photocopy some D&D books for his friends. He then later reports the guy to his boss then takes his job. So a lawful evil character may use the law to achieve his own goals.


I suppose I'll tell you about my Lawful Evil cleric Christof and his behavior.

To him order and security was more important then freedom or dignity. He believed that only a tight and iron grip on the people could bring safety and security. He was devout in his belief that the ends justified the means.

He did not believe in torture or murder without purpose. When the party had captured someone at another's request he stopped a fellow party member from torturing him with the justification.
"We were hired to capture him, not torture him"

Of course when the guy managed to slip through his bonds and had to be capture again. Christof let his ally torture the man as punishment.

In the campaign the party was trapped on an island in its own pocketplane. Christof's only real goal was to escape the island and return home, and he would do whatever he felt necessary to accomplish that goal.

For example he and the party needed one more item to complete the ritual to restore the island to the material plane. So he gathered up some homeless, payed them a few gold, took them out into a clearing in the woods knocked them all unconscious. He then sent a mole, a LN member of the party to Jarro who told them how Christof had abducted innocent towns folk unless he showed up at the clearing with the artifact. When Jarro and company arrived I cast consumption field and use the lives of those people as fuel for my fight with Jarro.

But Christof never killed someone for simply annoying him, even that Inn keeper who hugged him. Or for matters such as simple robbery.

LibraryOgre
2010-03-19, 02:22 PM
Another example of LE is the Operative from Serenity. He does whatever is necessary to preserve the Alliance. If that means getting inside River Tam's head, he does it. If it means slaughtering the colony of Haven, he does it.

Thajocoth
2010-03-19, 02:46 PM
Two views on LE:

1 - Order is important. Do whatever it takes to preserve order... Suffering & death are irrelevant, as long as there is order.

2 - Twist the rules to meet your desires. Find ways to exploit the laws for your gain.

Loxagn
2010-03-19, 04:16 PM
My personal interpretation:

The ultimate example of 'the ends justify the means'. You will do horrible, horrible things, in the interest of upholding not necessarily the law, but what is 'right' from your point of view. Light Yagami is Lawful Evil.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-19, 05:31 PM
Two views on LE:

1 - Order is important. Do whatever it takes to preserve order... Suffering & death are irrelevant, as long as there is order.

2 - Twist the rules to meet your desires. Find ways to exploit the laws for your gain.

And both views are right.

AslanCross
2010-03-19, 06:05 PM
Two views on LE:

1 - Order is important. Do whatever it takes to preserve order... Suffering & death are irrelevant, as long as there is order.

2 - Twist the rules to meet your desires. Find ways to exploit the laws for your gain.

These are pretty good views on LE.

The Tree of Death actually reminds me of Kelemvor, the god of death from FR. He was LN, but he made sure that the dead got what they deserved.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-19, 06:16 PM
The Tree of Death actually reminds me of Kelemvor, the god of death from FR. He was LN, but he made sure that the dead got what they deserved.

MoTB showed him as more like LE.

@OP: Lawful Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil) are usually Knight Templar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar) types, Well Intentioned Extremists (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist), or Hitmen With Hearts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitmanWithAHeart). "Follower" versions would probably be the Secret Police (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretPolice) knocking on your door, the Obstructive Bureaucrat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObstructiveBureaucrat) stopping you from moving around in the system, or the Dirty Cop (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DirtyCop) shaking you down for money.

Over all, they all have a single common thread: They work for something. A goal, a purpose or an object they must have. They either are the rules, use the rules or enforce the rules to get whatever it is they want.

waterpenguin43
2010-03-19, 06:18 PM
I tend to have three overall depictions of Lawful Evil. These are large categories, and they have branches. For example, the Dictator could be branched into The Umbridge. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUmbridge)

1: Dictator

A Dictator is one who rules over his country or whatever with an iron fist. He doesn't really care about things that don't get in the way of his plans, but if they do, he will stop at nothing to destroy them. He is obsessed with his power and will do anything to keep it.
2: Corrupt Cop This variety is like Lawful Neutral, except you'll stoop very, VERY low for the principals of Law. This includes, for example, beating a starving man to death for trying to steal food for his family, painfully slaughtering the family of a criminal to make him suffer, or any other extremee Lawful Neutral acts that end up turning him evil.
3: Utter Mook An utter mook is someone who, while isn't sadistic or the like, will completely obey any command from his/her master/mistress. He does all the dirty work without a noble reason, his master isn't forcing him in any way other than "I will kill you if you don't".
Choose whichever you please.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-19, 11:28 PM
I feel compelled to advise "Don't play an alignment; play a character." Your character will have an alignment, of course; but that should be a natural upshot of having a personality, of which there are more than just nine.


I mean as a Lawful Evil, rules are basical, rules are the base of society, working by the rules you achieve your power?
That's more how 4E's Evil alignment works, not necessarily how LE works. Old-school Evil of any variety needn't be self-serving; it's about hurting others, not about helping yourself.

Granted, the standardized Lawful Evil "Dominator" described in the 3.5 PHB is someone whose cruel exploitation of others is constrained by his code of ethics. But that's only one way to play LE. Kinda "Evil, but Lawful". Far more diabolical is someone whose ideals compel him to harm others: a vindictive character driven by hatred of those outside of his group, or of those who violate the principles he upholds, or whatever. Wanting everybody to die because that's "natural" and getting righteously pissed off at people who refuse to stop living definitely qualifies. Lawfully Evil and Evilly Lawful, rather than Evil but Lawful. Far scarier.


I don't think that alignment really fits for a Barbarian...
Why not?


Well I guess I can do all that but I think that enters in conflict with the Barbarian.... maybe if something happens and if I display of rage I break an X number of rules?
Is there anything about rage that compels you to break rules in 4E? In 3.X, there was no good reason why a Barbarian couldn't be Lawful; they were just arbitrarily restricted from it. (They were assumed to be primitive, but a character can totally be both primitive and honorable.) Certainly getting angry isn't restricted to Chaotic characters. "IN MY RIGHTEOUS FURY, I SHALL BRING JUSTICE DOWN UPON THE WICKED! THERE SHALL BE NO MERCY!" works just fine for a Lawful character.


Short version: schemes to put yourself on top, often (maybe even usually) by shoving everyone else around you down.
Ain't nothin' Lawful about that. Certainly the crime and duplicity you describe is non-Lawful. You're illustrating the relevant point here: The Evil Overlord is not the archetype that fits Lawful Evil, as Evil Overlords may be of any Evil alignment. (See Xykon.) It's the position of loyal minion to the Evil Overlord that's Lawful Evil. Doing horrible things to people out of obedience to a cruel master or twisted ideology or whatever.

Lawful alignment is for followers, not (necessarily) for leaders.


Twist the rules to meet your desires.
How Evil that is depends very much on what your desires are, and how you twist the rules. And certainly twisting the rules is less Lawful than following both their letter and their spirit.


The ultimate example of 'the ends justify the means'.
Funny, I'd associate Lawful Evil more with the belief that the means can justify the ends. "Yeah, the world got turned into a post-apocalyptic wasteland filled with demons who hunt people down and eat their souls, but the important thing is that I did what's right." "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall!" and all that; not caring about the actual consequences that your actions have for sentient beings, or just caring about your own "right conduct" so much more that you're willing to screw everybody over (honorably).

Golden-Esque
2010-03-19, 11:43 PM
Maybe 4th Ed changed this (giving me yet another reason to shy away from it), but in DnD 3.5, Barbarians couldn't be Lawful because it interfered with the free spirit required to sustain the Barbarian's wild nature.

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-20, 12:41 AM
Maybe 4th Ed changed this (giving me yet another reason to shy away from it), but in DnD 3.5, Barbarians couldn't be Lawful because it interfered with the free spirit required to sustain the Barbarian's wild nature.

And just how exactly does being Lawful interfere with being a free spirit?

Arbitrarious
2010-03-20, 12:45 AM
As people have said the lawful portion is fairly straightforward as is evil separately.

When I play LE I like characters who are basically sociopaths. I have an agenda and I simply don't acknowledge the rights of others except those that are explicitly granted by law and I will gleefully circumvent them where possible. Other people's feelings were simply tools to make them do what I wanted without them knowing.

Examples:

When working for the city guard as a mercenary I would often simply kill suspects rather then arrest them. So long as they use lethal force I was allowed to respond in kind. I didn't care that the amount of force they could apply didn't even register to me. It was more convenient to leave a corpse then to drag back an offender to a watch post.

I think my favorite LE character was a telepath. "I think you will agree free will is overrated." was his tag line when he used dominate. Yeah I answered to someone else, but the entire time I cultivated an army of thralls. When the boss got antsy and told me to get rid of the minions I simply released them and hid. At the time we were actually in his base and all my minions knew I got my orders from him. Needless to say things went on without my needing to interfere. Me and my party mopped up survivors and took over for ourselves. I was in an advisory role in the new regime. I liked plausible deniability.


So I guess what I'm driving at is have a goal. What does your character want? What stands in his way? How can you bring whatever system/establishment you are in against it, or how can you shield yourself against that same system for your own actions.

Play the world like a munchkin plays d&d. Do everything but outright break the rules for your own power.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-20, 12:51 AM
And just how exactly does being Lawful interfere with being a free spirit?

Because the alignment system is ****ed up. Full of contradictions and ambiguities.

Math_Mage
2010-03-20, 01:03 AM
A Lawful Evil character may be one whose idea of order is evil (Evil Lawful), or one whose methods of imposing order are evil (Lawful Evil), or somewhere in between (the former usually entails the latter, and a character that follows both can be the most terrifying type of evil there is). Lawful Evil characters are generally purposeful and deliberate in their evil actions; as Lord Vukodlak mentioned, LE has a goal in mind. Such a thing is not exclusive to Lawful characters, however; a Chaotic Evil character may work towards a personal goal (say, wealth), but this would not make him Lawful Evil.

The Operative, as has been discussed, is Lawful Evil. He has a vision of a world without sin, and will commit any sin necessary to create that world.

The Dirty Cop (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DirtyCop) is not Lawful Evil. The Dirty Cop cares more about personal pleasure than the law. He is on the take from the Mob, actively detrimental to order in society, and has no particular care for what other people do. He looks out for #1. The Dirty Cop is Chaotic Evil.

Lord Ariakan, from the Dragonlance novels, is Lawful Evil. His order of Knights is dedicated to honor, glory, and the Vision--a Vision of Krynn subjugated under the mailed fist of Queen Takhisis. They are not the antithesis of the LG Knights of Solamnia, they are the mirror image. This is a common theme for Lawful Evil.

Order, at any cost.
Order, in the name of darkness.
Order, because chaos will overwhelm your mastery.

Evil, to fulfill a vision.
Evil, to bring about order.
Evil, because good is too weak to survive.

That is Lawful Evil.

Riffington
2010-03-20, 04:46 PM
And just how exactly does being Lawful interfere with being a free spirit?

If you always wait at the crosswalk til the light turns green, even when no cars are coming, people are unlikely to call you a "free spirit".

(not that all Lawful people do that, just that it's a mark of a Lawful person)

Optimator
2010-03-20, 06:08 PM
Darth Vader is a pretty poor example for LE.

If you're having trouble, just roleplay a lawful character and an evil character. Split them, treat it as two parts of the character's alignment, not one alignment bundled together. You will be pigeon-holing yourself more if you try to look at his every action as LE instead of L or E.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 06:15 PM
If you always wait at the crosswalk til the light turns green, even when no cars are coming, people are unlikely to call you a "free spirit".

(not that all Lawful people do that, just that it's a mark of a Lawful person)

I do that. I call everyone jay walkers who doesn't wait.
Heck, some people don't even wait till no cars.