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Heliomance
2010-03-19, 04:04 AM
I realise that flying is far from the most broken thing a wizard can do, but in most fantasy literature it's not at all common. Mostly you find that a wizard that can lift himself into the air by the raw power of his magic is a very powerful wizard indeed. To try and recapture that feel, I propose increasing the level of levitate, fly, air walk, and overland flight by 3-4 levels. What would this do to the game?

Eldariel
2010-03-19, 04:12 AM
Well:
1) Flying races (Dragonborn, Raptoran, Half-Fey, etc.) would become far more powerful and would probably require some tweaking (at least the LA +0 ones).
2) Flying mounts would become far more common; then again, they're as vulnerable as ever to...everything so that's not that big.
3) Martial types would have to seek another way of confronting creatures with natural flight as this would presumably make all items granting flight more expensive too.

Other than that, not much. Frankly, it might not be a horrible change overall, though you'd have to adjust few other things too to make it comprehensive (Phantom Steed might want some increases in the levels it gains the abilities on too, Warlock probably shouldn't have flight at will from ~6, etc.).

Splendor
2010-03-19, 04:17 AM
Casters would still use Alter Self to become a Avarial and use their 50' fly movement and alter self's 10 min/lv duration.

Boci
2010-03-19, 07:33 AM
Casters would still use Alter Self to become a Avarial and use their 50' fly movement and alter self's 10 min/lv duration.

Not if the DM disagrees.

Runestar
2010-03-19, 07:56 AM
Personally, I don't mind if flight is removed from the game altogether, since I never did manage to grasp the rules governing flying or 3D combat in general. I know this makes certain foes such as dragons weaker, but hey, I am not complaining. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-03-19, 09:29 AM
As long as you do the same for monsters, to monstrous things that might be easier handled with flight and to all other spells related to flight (like phantom steed progression by caster level), it shouldn't matter. Fly, teleport and so on are utility things that only matter when facing challenges that expect them.

adecoy95
2010-03-19, 09:40 AM
hehe, just thought i would post a situation that happened in a game i was playing a few weeks ago involving flight.

we were a party of 3, it was me as a dread necromancer, a gold dragon (from dragon magazine), and a dragon shaman (i think), me and the gold dragon could fly, but the dragon shaman could not.

the entire encounter stomped him because he was the only one they could attack. :smallmad:

just thought i would post the possible side effects of PCs flying :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 09:58 AM
Not if the DM disagrees.

Disagrees with what? That is how Alter Self works. It says it grants movement speeds.

2xMachina
2010-03-19, 09:59 AM
Probably the form....

"No, that creature does not exist in my campaign."

FishAreWet
2010-03-19, 10:04 AM
Not if the DM disagrees.

But DM fiat exists at all time. Ceteris paribus please. Or else the entire conversation is answered with "DM FIAT!"

Ryuuk
2010-03-19, 10:08 AM
When the point of the thread is to make flight harder to get, one would assume that Alter Self would either become a higher level spell, or require a caster level that at least matched Fly's minimum to grant flight. This thread is already about DM fiat.

FishAreWet
2010-03-19, 10:14 AM
The thread is about creating house rules. If he's suggesting that it should be raised to a higher level, then that's what he should say.

DM saying no != Houseruling flight abilities to higher levels

Boci
2010-03-19, 10:31 AM
Disagrees with what? That is how Alter Self works. It says it grants movement speeds.

That gaining flight for 10 min / caster level is okay power-wise, or even possible, with a 2nd level spell.


But DM fiat exists at all time. Ceteris paribus please. Or else the entire conversation is answered with "DM FIAT!"

Saying "But a broken use of an already powerful spell can cause problems" doesn't really warrant any more details than "Countered by DM fiat".

Pluto
2010-03-19, 10:46 AM
Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.
(Except when PC's try to abuse a low-level spell whose effects are perhaps a bit too open-ended.)

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 10:49 AM
That gaining flight for 10 min / caster level is okay power-wise, or even possible, with a 1st level spell.



Saying "But a broken use of an already powerful spell can cause problems" doesn't really warrant any more details than "Countered by DM fiat".

Wait, when did Alter Self become 1st level?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm

Boci
2010-03-19, 10:51 AM
Wait, when did Alter Self become 1st level?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm

Dunno where I got 1st level from. My mistake, but the point still stands.

Eclipse
2010-03-19, 10:55 AM
Disagrees with what? That is how Alter Self works. It says it grants movement speeds.

Sure. But Avariels aren't core. Generally speaking, anything not core is allowed based on if the GM wants it for his campaign world. Maybe some people use all splats available as the base, but I think many more use core, then add in other splats as fits the campaign world.

Know any core humanoids that grant fly speeds?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-19, 10:58 AM
Sure. But Avariels aren't core. Generally speaking, anything not core is allowed based on if the GM wants it for his campaign world. Maybe some people use all splats available as the base, but I think many more use core, then add in other splats as fits the campaign world.

Know any core humanoids that grant fly speeds?

No humanoids. Plenty of amazing stuff you can get if you have the outsider type though. (40ft flight and 15 nat armor. In the same form :smalleek:)

Ernir
2010-03-19, 11:00 AM
Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.

Raptorans have a place in one of mine! :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2010-03-19, 11:03 AM
I realise that flying is far from the most broken thing a wizard can do, but in most fantasy literature it's not at all common.
Depends on what fantasy literature we're talking about. While flight via avian shapeshift is probably the most common, there are many instances like Daedalus, Aroree, Peter Pan, yogi discipline, or even Thor. Admittedly most of these aren't "wizards" per the D&D archetype, but using magic to fly is probably at least as common in myth or fantasy as shooting fireballs from one's bare hands.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 04:00 PM
Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.
(Except when PC's try to abuse a low-level spell whose effects are perhaps a bit too open-ended.)

Both Raptorians and Dragonborn have a place in my campaigns. Avariels... Those are the Flying Elves from FR, right? Those don't exist as far as I'm concerned, but that's a two-fold problem.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 04:04 PM
Is it because of elven racism (you don't like elves)? Or because they from FR?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 04:10 PM
Is it because of elven racism (you don't like elves)? Or because they from FR?

Both.



@OP: I neglected to mention this, but two classes are capable of obtaining Flight at 1st and 2nd level, and anyone can gain Flight at 1st level if either of those two classes are allowed (Incarnate, Totemist, and Shape Soulmeld).

Aharon
2010-03-19, 05:40 PM
Since this thread moved away from the original question a bit, I might as well ask:
How do you handle maneuverability in your games?

I find that most of the time, I just give everybody perfect maneuverability, but require them to travel in ways that don't require square roots and/or sine/cosine to find out how far they can go, because it takes up to much time.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-19, 07:22 PM
I know that I'm contributing to a tangent here, but winged humanoids should have the Monstrous Humanoid type. So should troglodytes and indeed all reptilian humanoids, and mermaids and gnolls for that matter. But they were categorized by the same people who made mage armor Conjuration, so what can you expect?

So that's what a DM might reasonably disagree with: avarial and the like having the Humanoid type.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 07:25 PM
I know that I'm contributing to a tangent here, but winged humanoids should have the Monstrous Humanoid type. So should troglodytes and indeed all reptilian humanoids, and mermaids and gnolls for that matter. But they were categorized by the same people who made mage armor Conjuration, so what can you expect?

So that's what a DM might reasonably disagree with: avarial and the like having the Humanoid type.

Wait, Wings make you a monster?

cfalcon
2010-03-19, 07:34 PM
As has been pointed out, you should have a plan involved for the other ways of getting flight. Are they ok with you? Polymorph, for instance, or Alter Self.

Overall, I don't really think this would hurt your game much. Consider an Earthbind spell to allow casters to drag flyers low if you anticipate having fliers be too hard to counter.

The game I'm currently running in ups the spell levels for all the invisibility variants by one (maybe not the really high level stuff). I'm liking that houserule a good deal, and will probably incorporate it into my next game. Personally I like the flight concept and I sort of view it as more of, you envelop the target with a bubble of something that can negate their weight and apply forces, with some mental hook- not like, you have to actually fight your own weight mentally. But I came to that conclusion mostly because they are pretty low level.

Also consider making levitate two levels lower than fly, if you are upping them by a bunch.

Kuma
2010-03-19, 07:40 PM
Wait, Wings make you a monster?

What makes a human, human?
Philosophy aside, i see no unreasonable problems with making flight spells higher level as long as the DM also realizes that flying monsters will then gain a light difficulty increase as characters without flight will be unable to fight effectively against them. and as to DM fiat...
D&D is DM Fiat enforced by the players will subject to the Rule of Fun (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun). if the Fiat is determined as non-fun, un-fun, or, even worse, anti-fun it will be discarded or the players will find a new DM.
EDIT: Ninja'd

absolmorph
2010-03-19, 07:41 PM
Since this thread moved away from the original question a bit, I might as well ask:
How do you handle maneuverability in your games?

I find that most of the time, I just give everybody perfect maneuverability, but require them to travel in ways that don't require square roots and/or sine/cosine to find out how far they can go, because it takes up to much time.
I dunno how many others are like this, but major number crunching for a hobby is something I enjoy.

RelentlessImp
2010-03-19, 07:42 PM
Sure. But Avariels aren't core. Generally speaking, anything not core is allowed based on if the GM wants it for his campaign world. Maybe some people use all splats available as the base, but I think many more use core, then add in other splats as fits the campaign world.

Know any core humanoids that grant fly speeds?

Sure. Well, not precisely humanoids, but Aasimar and Tiefling are core (as in, they are in the Monster Manual, which is a core source, and have rules for players), which can use Alter Self to become any kind of outsider of 5HD or less that has flight. Imps, for instance.

Totally core.

Oslecamo
2010-03-19, 07:43 PM
Depends on what fantasy literature we're talking about. While flight via avian shapeshift is probably the most common, there are many instances like Daedalus, Aroree, Peter Pan, yogi discipline, or even Thor. Admittedly most of these aren't "wizards" per the D&D archetype, but using magic to fly is probably at least as common in myth or fantasy as shooting fireballs from one's bare hands.

Probably more.

What isn't common is "smart" fliers that use flight+ranged attacks. Peter Pan doesn't pick up a bow/crossbow/rocks and rains death from above in the pirates

Similary, you don't hear the story of of the northern god who loled at the giants while keeping up in the air and shooting stuff.

There was a greek hero who used a pegasus to to outrun a manticore while shooting arrows, and in the Hobbit there's a dragon that prefers to keep a safe distance while strafing with fire, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

In 40K, people develop all ways of exotic flying/teleport for the explicit purpose of jumping in melee as fast as possible. Space marines developed the drop pods so they can crash down from the skies into the frontline ASAP, attacking from the air be damned. Only the Tau and sisters of battle seem to grasp the concept that flight+ranged weapon may be superior to flight+pointy stick.

Thus, in D&D, it's not so bad that the PCs are on ground and the monsters flying if the monsters are charging into melee anyway.

Of course some people prefer to apply real world logic that high mobility+ranged is superior to high mobility+melee, but it's a freaking fantasy game! Do those moath foaming demons look logic to you? Or that hungry magic beast? Even the Solar entry says it prefers to charge into melee than to stand in the air and shoot spells and SLAs!

RelentlessImp
2010-03-19, 08:50 PM
Probably more.

What isn't common is "smart" fliers that use flight+ranged attacks. Peter Pan doesn't pick up a bow/crossbow/rocks and rains death from above in the pirates

Similary, you don't hear the story of of the northern god who loled at the giants while keeping up in the air and shooting stuff.

There was a greek hero who used a pegasus to to outrun a manticore while shooting arrows, and in the Hobbit there's a dragon that prefers to keep a safe distance while strafing with fire, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

In 40K, people develop all ways of exotic flying/teleport for the explicit purpose of jumping in melee as fast as possible. Space marines developed the drop pods so they can crash down from the skies into the frontline ASAP, attacking from the air be damned. Only the Tau and sisters of battle seem to grasp the concept that flight+ranged weapon may be superior to flight+pointy stick.

Thus, in D&D, it's not so bad that the PCs are on ground and the monsters flying if the monsters are charging into melee anyway.

Of course some people prefer to apply real world logic that high mobility+ranged is superior to high mobility+melee, but it's a freaking fantasy game! Do those moath foaming demons look logic to you? Or that hungry magic beast? Even the Solar entry says it prefers to charge into melee than to stand in the air and shoot spells and SLAs!

Unfortunately, their INT scores don't really agree with their flavor text. Anything with an above-average INT should be able to figure out that staying out of range of people that can totally kill you while firing off ranged attacks is the best strategy.

If normal humans with ~14-18 INT (real world people) can figure this out, then effectively immortal beings with 20+ INT can figure it out, too. It's about playing the monsters to their INT scores.

Eclipse
2010-03-20, 12:02 AM
Sure. Well, not precisely humanoids, but Aasimar and Tiefling are core (as in, they are in the Monster Manual, which is a core source, and have rules for players), which can use Alter Self to become any kind of outsider of 5HD or less that has flight. Imps, for instance.

Totally core.

Definitely a good work around, but that's only if you can convince your GM playing a planetouched is a good idea. They aren't PC races, so they still require GM approval. That said, you're probably more likely to get approval to play a planetouched then you are to convince one to let you alter self into a non-core creature to abuse the spell alter self. Lots of GMs seem to like getting into those races for some reason.

Fizban
2010-03-20, 01:55 AM
You know, I never thought of it, but this totally fixes a ton of things. It should really be crossposted in the mundane characters thread. Skills are eclipsed by magic because magic that invalidates them shows up starting at level 1, but all you have to do is push it back. Jump, Spider Climb, Fly, and Overland Flight are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th level. If you push them back to 3/4/5/7, it will cost a significant amount of resources to just do it with magic. Extending this to other skills, you could give the same treatment to Levitate, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Invisibility, Silence, and on and on. Kicking back the "utility" magic by 2 spell levels across the board is probably enough to greatly extend the playing field where the casters and the not-casters can play comfortably.

I'd probably leave stuff that helps the whole party, like Secure Shelter, alone, but single target spells that invalidate skills shouldn't start happening till at least 3rd level. Which oddly enough, is the first level you get real mind control with Suggestion, which never felt too ridiculous to me.

I keep reading threads lately where I'm like "OMG I never thought of that but it's awesome!" I'm not sure if this is good or bad :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 09:21 AM
Probably more.

What isn't common is "smart" fliers that use flight+ranged attacks. Peter Pan doesn't pick up a bow/crossbow/rocks and rains death from above in the pirates


Actually, in the cartoon series of Peter Pan back in 90's there was an episode where he did throw rocks. But that was only because he was hidingm and couldn't go into melee because they'd find out he was there.

Splendor
2010-03-20, 10:47 PM
I have no clue what book I pulled this out of, but I've had it for awhile now....

Fly (Dex; Armor Check Penalty, Requires: Ability to Fly)
You are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic, and can perform daring maneuvers while airborne. Note that this skill does not give you the ability to fly.
Check: You can perform maneuvers while flying. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed, can turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at +50% normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies, as noted on the following chart.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e50/LordSplendor/FLY.jpg
Being attacked while flying: You are not considered flatfooted while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude.
Collision while flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger you must immediately make a DC 20 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
Avoid falling damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. If you have to make this check due to a failed Fly check or collision the DC is 20. Falling rate is 530’ per round.
High wind speeds: Flying during high winds causes penalties on your Fly checks as noted on the Wind Effects chart.
Action: None. A fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail this check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
Special: Creatures with a fly speed receive this skill for free as a class skill. They also receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability.
Creatures with clumsy maneuverability take a –8 penalty on all Fly checks.
Creatures with poor maneuverability take a –4 penalty on all Fly checks.
Creatures with good maneuverability get a +4 racial bonus on all Fly checks.
Creatures with perfect maneuverability get a +8 racial bonus on all Fly checks.
Creatures without a maneuverability rating are assumed to have an average maneuverability and take no penalty on Fly checks.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner; such as shape change ability).

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-20, 10:58 PM
Splendor: That's from Pathfinder...

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-22, 03:31 PM
Wait, Wings make you a monster?
No, being a creature in D&D 3.5 makes you a "monster". ("We are all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not?") But animalistic characteristics (like wings) ought to disqualify a race from the Humanoid type, because such characteristics are supposed to be what distinguishes Monstrous Humanoids from Humanoids. Humanoids really shouldn't even have racial hit dice nor racial weapon proficiencies, if you ask me.

Ideally, I would prefer for things to be classified based on what they are. Non-overlapping categories should be legitimately non-overlapping, instead of something fitting into several categories except for being arbitrarily assigned to exactly one of them and not the others. I find it annoying to have spell schools and creature types and especially alignments decided in part by fiat.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-22, 04:02 PM
No, being a creature in D&D 3.5 makes you a "monster". ("We are all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not?") But animalistic characteristics (like wings) ought to disqualify a race from the Humanoid type, because such characteristics are supposed to be what distinguishes Monstrous Humanoids from Humanoids. Humanoids really shouldn't even have racial hit dice nor racial weapon proficiencies, if you ask me.

Not to argue semantics but humans aren't even in the Monster Manual.
:smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-22, 06:18 PM
Slight aside:
Does anybody actually put Avariels or Raptorans in their campaign worlds?
Because I've never seen either.
(Except when PC's try to abuse a low-level spell whose effects are perhaps a bit too open-ended.)

I've had a player as an Avariel Druid coz she loved Elves and a Winged Elf was too much awesome to pass up.

Then again my players aren't powergamers so IRL I don't have to ban things. The Druid was a healer and the Tiefling Swashbuckler was by far the most powerful character, and we had a straight class Conjurer.