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Wahrheit
2010-03-19, 11:19 AM
If one were to cast a still silent invisible spell, would the target(s) be denied their Reflex saves, or take a penalty, since there's no sign whatsoever that you're about to be hurt? And would they be flat-footed if it was a ranged touch attack?

tyckspoon
2010-03-19, 11:22 AM
No, no, and potentially yes, but not as a result of being attacked by a Still/Silent spell; they'll be flatfooted if they otherwise meet the conditions for being flatfooted (that is, you're casting at them when they didn't know they were in a fight, or some other effect has made them flatfooted), but in that situation they would be flatfooted against an unmodified spell as well.

Lysander
2010-03-19, 11:27 AM
They would still receive a reflex save. It's right in the name: "reflex"

They don't need to know anything bad is coming. As soon as they sense anything wrong (including the first tingle of heat from your invisible fireball) they reflexively try to move their body in a way that minimizes harm.

lsfreak
2010-03-19, 12:29 PM
Flat-footed people, unconscious people and those is 5x5 foot rooms are allowed Reflex saves. Invisible Spell does nothing for that. As for flat-footed, probably not that either, as long as they're aware of the caster. You also don't know a wizard is shooting Enervation at you until the ray hits , but you're on the lookout for the wizard doing something with his hands.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 12:46 PM
There's just one condition that keeps a character from making Reflex saves: death.

Ernir
2010-03-19, 12:52 PM
There's just one condition that keeps a character from making Reflex saves: death.

You sure? I don't see anything about the Dead condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) that prevents a character from making reflex saves. :smalltongue:

(I am kidding.)

Fiery Diamond
2010-03-19, 01:05 PM
I am rather confused about all this "nothing prevents a reflex save." Doesn't being paralyzed make you auto-fail reflex saves?

senrath
2010-03-19, 01:09 PM
I am rather confused about all this "nothing prevents a reflex save." Doesn't being paralyzed make you auto-fail reflex saves?

Strangely enough, no. You just count as having 0 Dex, but you still get your save.

lsfreak
2010-03-19, 01:13 PM
I am rather confused about all this "nothing prevents a reflex save." Doesn't being paralyzed make you auto-fail reflex saves?

Nope. Though you have an effective Dex of 0, which means you'll be unlikely to make the save.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 01:14 PM
Doesn't being paralyzed make you auto-fail reflex saves?
D&D paralysis isn't real paralysis. You can still breathe and swallow (since you don't suffocate or drown on your own saliva). You've got enough muscle control to keep standing up, and continue to hold things in your hands. You can look around you (because you still have line of sight in all directions). You just can't relocate your hands or feet.

Wahrheit
2010-03-19, 02:35 PM
So, pretty much the only benefit would be that it'd be impossible for people to realize that you're the one casting the spell. Which is in and of itself handy in some situations, like if you wanted to assassinate someone in the middle of a crowd with Chain Lightning or Finger of Death or something.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 02:48 PM
So, pretty much the only benefit would be that it'd be impossible for people to realize that you're the one casting the spell. Which is in and of itself handy in some situations, like if you wanted to assassinate someone in the middle of a crowd with Chain Lightning or Finger of Death or something.

Yes, no one will know unless they can see invisible things.

lsfreak
2010-03-19, 03:11 PM
So, pretty much the only benefit would be that it'd be impossible for people to realize that you're the one casting the spell.

Throw up Invisible Webs and watch the mooks run straight into them, or Invisible Walls of Stone so you can see everything going on without the risk of being targeted with anything. Invisible Obscure Mist screws with anyone who can see invisibility while not hampering you (problematic if you end up needing to see invisibility). Invisible Summon Monsters (warning: cheesy). Cross over to the realm of invisible battlefield control, rather than just blasting, and it becomes much more worthwhile.

Ranos
2010-03-19, 03:28 PM
Flat-footed people, unconscious people and those is 5x5 foot rooms are allowed Reflex saves.
Unconscious targets are considered willing.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 03:33 PM
Unconscious targets are considered willing.

Willingness doesn't apply to reflex saves (usually). Only if the spell says (willing) in spell text like Teleport/Dimension door.
Conscious enemies can attempt to not let you teleport them over lava (granted you'd fall too), but unconcious ones are willing.
See:
You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels.

Glimbur
2010-03-19, 03:37 PM
Throw up Invisible Webs and watch the mooks run straight into them, or Invisible Walls of Stone so you can see everything going on without the risk of being targeted with anything. Invisible Obscure Mist screws with anyone who can see invisibility while not hampering you (problematic if you end up needing to see invisibility). Invisible Summon Monsters (warning: cheesy). Cross over to the realm of invisible battlefield control, rather than just blasting, and it becomes much more worthwhile.

Even worse, consider Invisible Summon Monster. Or Invisible Planar Binding, if you want a more long-term investment.

How does Invisible Fabricate work? Or Invisible Teleport? Or... etc. Invisible Spell is cool and somewhat useful and a reasonable +0 metamagic on blasting, but once you get outside that it's clearly worth a spell level adjustment.

Sliver
2010-03-19, 03:39 PM
D&D paralysis isn't real paralysis. You can still breathe and swallow (since you don't suffocate or drown on your own saliva). You've got enough muscle control to keep standing up, and continue to hold things in your hands. You can look around you (because you still have line of sight in all directions). You just can't relocate your hands or feet.

I read this thing so much that I think Curmudgeon just saved it in a file and copies it every time.. Is it just me? :smallconfused:

PirateMonk
2010-03-19, 03:42 PM
Invisible Obscure Mist screws with anyone who can see invisibility while not hampering you (problematic if you end up needing to see invisibility).

Alternatively, it creates an invisible fog cloud which inexplicably blocks vision, likely driving anyone who realizes this insane.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 04:28 PM
Is it just me? :smallconfused:
It's just you. I think I've typed this up about three times now, though, so maybe saving it isn't a bad idea.

Frosty
2010-03-19, 05:38 PM
I personally houserule that anyone who is helpless (which includes paralysis, unconsciousness, sleeping, tied up, etc) still gets a roll, but only succeeds on a natural 20. It's more LUCK at that point than anything since you physically can't move out of the way.

JonestheSpy
2010-03-19, 05:58 PM
unconscious people and those is 5x5 foot rooms are allowed Reflex saves.

What is the basis for this assertion? Is this one of those ridiculous "they never bothered to write down that unconscious people don't get reflex saves" things, or is my sarcasm meter just not working?

Myou
2010-03-19, 06:01 PM
What is the basis for this assertion? Is this one of those ridiculous "they never bothered to write down that unconscious people don't get reflex saves" things, or is my sarcasm meter just not working?

There are no rule anywhere for denying people reflex saves - you always get a save unless a spell says you don't.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-19, 06:01 PM
What is the basis for this assertion?
It's really the way the rules work. Reflex saves include your body's unconscious reactions to avoid danger.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 06:03 PM
What is the basis for this assertion? Is this one of those ridiculous "they never bothered to write down that unconscious people don't get reflex saves" things, or is my sarcasm meter just not working?

They say this because they aren't merging the real world with D&D in their heads.
In D&D, a Rogue can be save with no room to much from a fireball if he passes a save.
Heck Fireballs have no pressure unlike explosives in real world.
So while one make houserules to combine the two even though the physics of D&D are different.
But RAW they get saves.

JonestheSpy
2010-03-19, 06:04 PM
There are no rule anywhere for denying people reflex saves - you always get a save unless a spell says you don't.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what separates Internet Theory from real gaming.
:smallamused:

edit:

It's really the way the rules work. Reflex saves include your body's unconscious reactions to avoid danger.

Did some game designer actually write that down, or is that an extrapolation based on the lack of rules re:reflex saves by unconscious people?

Private-Prinny
2010-03-19, 06:09 PM
They say this because they aren't merging the real world with D&D in their heads.
In D&D, a Rogue can be save with no room to much from a fireball if he passes a save.
Heck Fireballs have no pressure unlike explosives in real world.
So while one make houserules to combine the two even though the physics of D&D are different.
But RAW they get saves.

That's why I usually go with RAI. RAW can get very cheesy, very quickly. If you're trapped in a Forcecage and are literally physically incapable of avoiding an attack, no Reflex save. It makes sense, and no one that I play with objects.

Same goes for tied up, unconscious, and occasionally prone.

Again, I'm pretty sure that's a houserule.

Frosty
2010-03-19, 06:10 PM
A rogue in a 5 fy 5 room still has *some* room to maneuver, so he gets a save as normal. An unconscious person just *doesn't* move, so, by common sense, should only dodge the worst of the effects of the fireball by sheer luck. The fire just HAPPENED to go there less.

Not RAW, but a good rule to go by.

Zeful
2010-03-19, 06:13 PM
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what separates Internet Theory from real gaming.
:smallamused:

edit:


Did some game designer actually write that down, or is that an extrapolation based on the lack of rules re:reflex saves by unconscious people?

It's listed under the Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) Being Unconscious renders one helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless). Being helpless still allows you to make reflex saves.

JonestheSpy
2010-03-19, 06:14 PM
A rogue in a 5 fy 5 room still has *some* room to maneuver, so he gets a save as normal. An unconscious person just *doesn't* move, so, by common sense, should only dodge the worst of the effects of the fireball by sheer luck. The fire just HAPPENED to go there less.

Not RAW, but a good rule to go by.

Not a bad rationalization, but in my pov that's what high hit points are about, not the actual saves.

AslanCross
2010-03-19, 06:21 PM
I think the issue in preventing a character from making reflex saves when helpless is that there are no analogous situations wherein a character is prevented from making a will or fort save unless they're already dead. (Maybe with will, yes, but as long as a character is biologically alive there should still be a fort save.)

RelentlessImp
2010-03-19, 06:28 PM
If you want to bypass Reflex saves, Spellwarp Sniper. As bad as the class is, it turns Ref-half spells into Ranged Touch Attacks with no save.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:32 PM
A rogue in a 5 fy 5 room still has *some* room to maneuver, so he gets a save as normal. An unconscious person just *doesn't* move, so, by common sense, should only dodge the worst of the effects of the fireball by sheer luck. The fire just HAPPENED to go there less.

Not RAW, but a good rule to go by.

But the fireball engulfs a 20 x 20 x 20 foot volume, the rogue in the 5 x 5 x 5 room has absolutely no way to dodge it.

Zeful
2010-03-19, 06:36 PM
But the fireball engulfs a 20 x 20 x 20 foot volume, the rogue in the 5 x 5 x 5 room has absolutely no way to dodge it.

That's true in 2e, but in 3.x it's a 20ft radius burst.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:38 PM
That's true in 2e, but in 3.x it's a 20ft radius burst.

It goes twenty feet in all directions after being cast, so it's effectively 20 x 20 x 20. The only way to dodge it would be to leave the targeted area somehow, which would mean you would have to leave the square you are on when it's not your turn.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 06:50 PM
It goes twenty feet in all directions after being cast, so it's effectively 20 x 20 x 20. The only way to dodge it would be to leave the targeted area somehow, which would mean you would have to leave the square you are on when it's not your turn.

Look, Evasion is allowed to break the laws of physics because it is extraordinary. It says so in the can.
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

I perfer Evasion as hammerspace. You jump in it (for sec while fire moves around) than jump back. With just evasion, you aren't able to be damaged on a success.
Even if you fail your hammerspace Improved Evasion, still blocks out of the fire.
Normal physics doesn't allow this but as it is Extraordinary: you can tell physics "screw you".

Runestar
2010-03-19, 06:52 PM
Do take note that being helpless does disable evasion and improved evasion. So an unconscious rogue still gets to make reflex saves against that fireball (albeit at a stiff penalty because his dex mod is now -5), but he does not negate all damage on a successful save.

In all fairness, the rogue still takes damage, and barring metagame knowledge, the spellcaster really has no way of telling that a save was made. He sees the rogue is scorched from the flames, but you cannot determine if the damage done was too much or too little.


Did some game designer actually write that down, or is that an extrapolation based on the lack of rules re:reflex saves by unconscious people?

It has actually been covered in the 3.5 FAQ, page 63.

Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate.

In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves:
• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves.
• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly.
• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws.
• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws.
• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 06:54 PM
Look, Evasion is allowed to break the laws of physics because it is extraordinary. It says so in the can.
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

I perfer Evasion as hammerspace. You jump in it (for sec while fire moves around) than jump back. With just evasion, you aren't able to be damaged on a success.
Even if you fail your hammerspace Improved Evasion, still blocks out of the fire.
Normal physics doesn't allow this but as it is Extraordinary: you can tell physics "screw you".
There is the laws of verisimilitude, which dictates, to avoid a giant ball of flame that is much larger than the room you are cowering in, you must leave the room with all due haste to avoid becoming a BBQ, and thus must leave your square.

Zeful
2010-03-19, 06:57 PM
It goes twenty feet in all directions after being cast, so it's effectively 20 x 20 x 20. The only way to dodge it would be to leave the targeted area somehow, which would mean you would have to leave the square you are on when it's not your turn.

No it's not. Fireball creates a Sphere, not a cube, so the math is 4/3*Pi*r3 The area of effect approximately four times the size of your cube (~32,000 for the sphere rather than 8000 for a cube).

Starbuck_II
2010-03-19, 06:57 PM
There is the laws of verisimilitude, which dictates, to avoid a giant ball of flame that is much larger than the room you are cowering in, you must leave the room with all due haste to avoid becoming a BBQ, and thus must leave your square.

But Extraordinary says "screw you Verisimilitude, I am boss (see Awesome). I kick darkness till it bleeds daylight. I'm more hot blooded than Kamina.".
It says it cares not how you feel: it can break the rules that make up how the world runs. Extraordinary abilities are extraordinary.

Eclipse
2010-03-19, 07:16 PM
There is the laws of verisimilitude, which dictates, to avoid a giant ball of flame that is much larger than the room you are cowering in, you must leave the room with all due haste to avoid becoming a BBQ, and thus must leave your square.

In that case, what do you do when a fireball blasts the field and the character has room to maneuver and succeeds on his save? Does the character A) remain in his square but somehow dodge the blast, B) leave his square to dodge the blast and stay in his new square (moving close to his entire movement speed in the process for most characters), or C) leave his square to dodge the blast then return afterward (move more than his movement speed for most characters). I think you can see that all of these options are clearly ridiculous, but that's how the game works.

B goes against the intended rules of the game, and C seems like your trying to justify the dodge, but you end up with an equally ridiculous side effect that you can somehow move faster than normal anytime you need to dodge a fireball or any other burst.

In short, when all the options are crazy, pick the simplest option, which to me seems like A. In any case, I definitely see where you're coming from and don't blame you for wanting to change it. If my players and I cared more about making combat mechanics more consistent with expectations, I'd probably house rule in option B though.

To the OP: I know there's a feat that lets you shape blasts. Perhaps there's a way to change it into a ray that targets touch AC instead? Not that that helps if you're trying to avoid dealing with someone's high dex, but it might. Also has the problem of changing an AOE to be single target, which is probably a painful proposition when trying to get the most out of your spells. I don't know of any way off the top of my head though.

Volkov
2010-03-19, 07:18 PM
In that case, what do you do when a fireball blasts the field and the character has room to maneuver and succeeds on his save? Does the character A) remain in his square but somehow dodge the blast, B) leave his square to dodge the blast and stay in his new square (moving close to his entire movement speed in the process for most characters), or C) leave his square to dodge the blast then return afterward (move more than his movement speed for most characters). I think you can see that all of these options are clearly ridiculous, but that's how the game works.

B goes against the intended rules of the game, and C seems like your trying to justify the dodge, but you end up with an equally ridiculous side effect that you can somehow move faster than normal anytime you need to dodge a fireball or any other burst.

In short, when all the options are crazy, pick the simplest option, which to me seems like A. In any case, I definitely see where you're coming from and don't blame you for wanting to change it. If my players and I cared more about making combat mechanics more consistent with expectations, I'd probably house rule in option B though.

To the OP: I know there's a feat that lets you shape blasts. Perhaps there's a way to change it into a ray that targets touch AC instead? Not that that helps if you're trying to avoid dealing with someone's high dex, but it might. Also has the problem of changing an AOE to be single target, which is probably a painful proposition when trying to get the most out of your spells. I don't know of any way off the top of my head though.

I'd stick with B to please my verisimilitude crazy player (he gets visibly upset every time it's broken).

Runestar
2010-03-19, 07:21 PM
So I can fireball my fighter to grant him free move actions? :smallbiggrin:

Private-Prinny
2010-03-19, 07:30 PM
In that case, what do you do when a fireball blasts the field and the character has room to maneuver and succeeds on his save? Does the character A) remain in his square but somehow dodge the blast.

This seems like a reasonable solution. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html)

She avoided it because of her reflexes, had room to maneuver, and didn't leave what would've been her square. Although, she clearly was not helpless in any way, shape, or form.

Hooray for the magic of houserules!

Volkov
2010-03-19, 07:33 PM
So I can fireball my fighter to grant him free move actions? :smallbiggrin:

The risk of being BBQ's kind of outweighs the gain, plus your fighter should be able to move to where he needs to be with one hustle.

RelentlessImp
2010-03-19, 07:38 PM
To the OP: I know there's a feat that lets you shape blasts. Perhaps there's a way to change it into a ray that targets touch AC instead? Not that that helps if you're trying to avoid dealing with someone's high dex, but it might. Also has the problem of changing an AOE to be single target, which is probably a painful proposition when trying to get the most out of your spells. I don't know of any way off the top of my head though.

See: Spellwarp Sniper (Complete Scoundrel), mentioned earlier in this thread.

Frosty
2010-03-19, 08:26 PM
He doesn't need to leave his square at all. The fighter just weaves and dodges matrix-style so that only half of the fire gets him.

Picture fireball not as a solid wave of fire expanding from the center. Picutre it more like a frag grenade, with bolts of fire shooting out from the center, with the ffective kill radius being 20 feet.

nargbop
2010-03-19, 08:28 PM
Kingdoms of Kalamar has a silly-broken feat called Irresistable Spell. Seriously. Add many spell levels (5 I think) to remove all saves from a spell.

Myou
2010-03-19, 09:46 PM
Kingdoms of Kalamar has a silly-broken feat called Irresistable Spell. Seriously. Add many spell levels (5 I think) to remove all saves from a spell.

Is that third party?

Volkov
2010-03-19, 09:47 PM
Kingdoms of Kalamar has a silly-broken feat called Irresistable Spell. Seriously. Add many spell levels (5 I think) to remove all saves from a spell.

Phantasmal killer has just become so horribly broken against everything that isn't immune to mind effects it's not funny.

Gralamin
2010-03-19, 09:55 PM
Is that third party?

Its 3rd party that is actually licensed to have the D&D logo. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar)

Myou
2010-03-19, 10:03 PM
Its 3rd party that is actually licensed to have the D&D logo. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar)

Dude, messed up. :smallyuk:

Wahrheit
2010-03-19, 11:59 PM
I wasn't planning a specific build or anything; I was merely curious since I always understood Reflex saves as dodging out of the way of the worst of the effect, but if the effect was undetectable how would you know to dodge in the first place? Call it idle curiosity.

Runestar
2010-03-20, 12:26 AM
I wasn't planning a specific build or anything; I was merely curious since I always understood Reflex saves as dodging out of the way of the worst of the effect, but if the effect was undetectable how would you know to dodge in the first place? Call it idle curiosity.

If you read my quote in an earlier post above (the one in spoiler tags), the designers mentioned that reflex saves can also be attributed to luck. It is not always about managing to jump out of the way of that incoming fireball. :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2010-03-20, 06:26 AM
Did some game designer actually write that down
Yes, they did. Skip Williams wrote this in Rules of the Game: Actions (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a):
Reactive Nonactions: It's usually best to allow characters to use nonactions, such as making opposed checks to resist being tripped or grappled, unless they're helpless (any ability score reduced to 0, paralyzed, petrified, or unconscious). It's worth noting, however, that even a helpless character can make a Reflex save (albeit with a -5 penalty for an effective Dexterity score of 0). That's because the game generally favors at least some involvement from the player -- and a chance for a miraculous escape -- whenever a character is in danger.

A player reasonably can expect to make opposed checks that have a basically defensive nature, such as resisting a trip or grapple, even when a character is helpless. In such cases, the opposed check really represents fate intervening to foil the attacker rather than any determined resistance on the defender's part. No matter what kind of opposed check a helpless character makes, its best to apply a -5 penalty on the check for a relevant ability score that's effectively 0 when the action is basically physical (such as avoiding being tripped or grappled).