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zagan
2010-03-19, 12:00 PM
Apart from wish is there any spell that can permanently increase Strength ?

I'm asking because while compiling thing for my list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144321).
I come across something interesting, an optional material component called:
Horn of Gorgon: If used as a component when casting any spell that enhances Strength (Whether by an enhancement bonus, a size increase, or any other mean) it add 2 to the subject's strength on top of the spell normal effect.
575gp

At first I was thinking of wish obviously but inherent bonus can't be higher than +5 so the limitation does not come from the spell.
It could be argue that the bonus is untyped and would stack, but it's dubious.
Still it allow you to only use (pay) for two wish instead of five to gain the bonus so there's that.

The only other option I can think of would be a permanencied Enlarge person.

So I ask the playground is there any spell that could really benefit from that component ?

Ernir
2010-03-19, 12:02 PM
Would it be enough for your purposes to "just" be up 24/7, as a caster using Persist Spell could have, or is a true duration of Permanent necessary?

Lysander
2010-03-19, 12:04 PM
Reincarnate?

Telonius
2010-03-19, 12:07 PM
Wish would do it. The thing that would help you with, is if you were planning on casting it multiple times to get the full inherent bonus. You'd only have to cast it twice instead of 5 times. So, it basically saves you 15,000 XP. The other option to get up to +5 is Tomes, which are expensive.

adecoy95
2010-03-19, 12:08 PM
Apart from wish is there any spell that can permanently increase Strength ?

I'm asking because while compiling thing for my list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144321).
I come across something interesting, an optional material component called:
Horn of Gorgon: If used as a component when casting any spell that enhances Strength (Whether by an enhancement bonus, a size increase, or any other mean) it add 2 to the subject's strength on top of the spell normal effect.
575gp

At first I was thinking of wish obviously but inherent bonus can't be higher than +5 so the limitation does not come from the spell.
It could be argue that the bonus is untyped and would stack, but it's dubious.
Still it allow you to only use (pay) for two wish instead of five to gain the bonus so there's that.

The only other option I can think of would be a permanencied Enlarge person.

So I ask the playground is there any spell that could really benefit from that component ?

only thing i can think of is the curse of lycantropy spell from complete divine, it gives the target a permanent lycantropy affliction, oddly enough tho, the spell was changed in the spell compendium into something very different, check them both to see for yourself, funny stuff

Corey
2010-03-19, 12:10 PM
Polymorph Any Other :smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2010-03-19, 12:13 PM
Would it be enough for your purposes to "just" be up 24/7, as a caster using Persist Spell could have, or is a true duration of Permanent necessary?

Once the spell ends the bonus from the horn is lost and another needs to be used. So a "Permanent" or "Instantaneous" duration is necessary to get the full benefit of the horn.

In short the OP wants to find away to get +2 to strength for 575gp.

zagan
2010-03-19, 12:15 PM
Would it be enough for your purposes to "just" be up 24/7, as a caster using Persist Spell could have, or is a true duration of Permanent necessary?

It need to be permanent, otherwise you need to pay for the component each time.

Edit: Ninjaed in my own thread.

Telonius
2010-03-19, 12:15 PM
Come to think of it, Enlarge Person wouldn't even need to be permanencied. Just cast "Reduce Person" normally before you cast your Horn-enhanced version of Enlarge Person. Lather, rinse, repeat. Instant Hercules!

EDIT: Hmm, cancel that, though, it would only good for as long as the spell lasts.

Starscream
2010-03-19, 12:55 PM
I've got a fun one for you: Extract Gift.

It's a 5th level cleric/sor/wiz spell. Casting it is a chaotic act, but not an evil one.

Basically you can capture a demon and permanently steal some of it's abilities or skill points. In the case of abilities, the demon's bonus must be at least twice the amount stolen. So if one has a strength score of 14, you could steal one point of strength from it.

The stolen strength is an enhancement bonus, and doesn't stack, but you could continually improve it by capturing ever more powerful demons as you advance.

I've never actually used this, but I've always thought it would be fun to build a character around it. Maybe a cleric of Olidammara who is bored with ordinary theft, and has decided that stealing the essence of demons is the ultimate tribute to his god.

You can take some charisma from a succubus, some dexterity from a quasit...even the lowly dretch is enough to get you a permanent point of constitution boost. You can cast the spell on the other players in your party as well.

It's just a matter of how much the DM will let you use this before he gets fed up and hits you with a greater dispel magic. I don't really consider it a broken spell though. Stealing 4 strength from a demon will cost you 16,000 GP and 640 xp. By comparison, a belt of giant strength +4 also costs 16,000.

zagan
2010-03-19, 12:58 PM
I've got a fun one for you: Extract Gift.

It's a 5th level cleric/sor/wiz spell. Casting it is a chaotic act, but not an evil one.

Basically you can capture a demon and permanently steal some of it's abilities or skill points. In the case of abilities, the demon's bonus must be at least twice the amount stolen. So if one has a strength score of 14, you could steal one point of strength from it.

The stolen strength is an enhancement bonus, and doesn't stack, but you could continually improve it by capturing ever more powerful demons as you advance.

I've never actually used this, but I've always thought it would be fun to build a character around it. Maybe a cleric of Olidammara who is bored with ordinary theft, and has decided that stealing the essence of demons is the ultimate tribute to his god.

You can take some charisma from a succubus, some dexterity from a quasit...even the lowly dretch is enough to get you a permanent point of constitution boost. You can cast the spell on the other players in your party as well.

It's just a matter of how much the DM will let you use this before he gets fed up and hits you with a greater dispel magic. I don't really consider it a broken spell though. Stealing 4 strength from a demon will cost you 16,000 GP and 640 xp. By comparison, a belt of giant strength +4 also costs 16,000.

This look like a fun one yes, where it's from ?

Boci
2010-03-19, 01:02 PM
This look like a fun one yes, where it's from ?

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abbys

zagan
2010-03-19, 01:07 PM
Thanks, I've found it. Shame it can be dispeled.

JeenLeen
2010-03-19, 01:21 PM
Unless I'm missing something, the component says it adds +2 to the the subject's strength, not to the bonus given by the spell.

That means it's an untyped bonus.
Which means, if used with a instanteous or permanent spell, it gives you an untyped +2.
Untyped bonuses from different sources stack. (I'm unsure if two castings of the same spell, such as Wish, would count as different sources.) If you use it with Wish, I would see it RAW as giving +1 inherent and +2 untyped.

Edit: cheesey and cheap. There's a version of Reincarnate that doesn't cost levels, in SpC (similiar to the Revivify as opposed to Raise Dead.) Get someone to PaO you into something with a negative racial bonus to Strength. Reincarnate will likely increase your strength score, giving you the new body and an untyped +2. (Racial bonuses stack too, IIRC, so even if it is racial bonus, it still works.)
A problem could be if the component can only be used with spells that will necessarily raise your strength. I'm not sure if there's any particular rules with when you can or cannot add special components.

JaronK
2010-03-19, 01:44 PM
Extract Gift could be made into a spell like via Spell Stitching, which would be useful. Also, Haunt Shift could put you into a stronger body, for what that's worth. And yeah... PAO.

JaronK

zagan
2010-03-19, 01:52 PM
Unless I'm missing something, the component says it adds +2 to the the subject's strength, not to the bonus given by the spell.

That means it's an untyped bonus.
Which means, if used with a instanteous or permanent spell, it gives you an untyped +2.
Untyped bonuses from different sources stack. (I'm unsure if two castings of the same spell, such as Wish, would count as different sources.) If you use it with Wish, I would see it RAW as giving +1 inherent and +2 untyped.

Edit: cheesey and cheap. There's a version of Reincarnate that doesn't cost levels, in SpC (similiar to the Revivify as opposed to Raise Dead.) Get someone to PaO you into something with a negative racial bonus to Strength. Reincarnate will likely increase your strength score, giving you the new body and an untyped +2. (Racial bonuses stack too, IIRC, so even if it is racial bonus, it still works.)
A problem could be if the component can only be used with spells that will necessarily raise your strength. I'm not sure if there's any particular rules with when you can or cannot add special components.

I've caugh that possible meaning of the text and note it in the OP but it would be really cheesy, I very much doubt any DM would allow the trippling of the bonus for 575gp per casting. Still it's a funny RAW reading.

As for reincarnate and PaO combo, yeah it could work I suppose need to look at the specific of the spell but I don't see any problem.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 04:05 PM
I've caugh that possible meaning of the text and note it in the OP but it would be really cheesy, I very much doubt any DM would allow the trippling of the bonus for 575gp per casting. Still it's a funny RAW reading.

As for reincarnate and PaO combo, yeah it could work I suppose need to look at the specific of the spell but I don't see any problem.

Right. If just gaining infinite Str is all you are after, Cancer Mage is the way to go.

zagan
2010-03-19, 04:11 PM
Right. If just gaining infinite Str is all you are after, Cancer Mage is the way to go.

Not especialy no, I was just curious if any spell apart from wish could benefit from that particular trick. (on the long term)

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 04:17 PM
Not especialy no, I was just curious if any spell apart from wish could benefit from that particular trick. (on the long term)

As stated, Extract Gift does this, but that's about it. It would be a nice addition to Chasing Perfection or Channel Celestial, but one is situational and the other is a high-level spell that really isn't worth casting.




One way to make this item even better is to combine it with the feat from the Dragon Compendium that increases Enhancement bonuses to ability scores by 2. Coupled with the PH2 spells Animalistic Power and Chasing Perfection, and you're looking at a +6 Str bonus from a 2nd level spell slot (and +4 Dex/Con), or a +8 Str bonus from a 6th level spell (and a +6 to everything else).

Another option for Gishes is Fist of Stone, which all ready provides a +6 Enhancement bonus to Str as is.

zagan
2010-03-19, 04:31 PM
As stated, Extract Gift does this, but that's about it. It would be a nice addition to Chasing Perfection or Channel Celestial, but one is situational and the other is a high-level spell that really isn't worth casting.




One way to make this item even better is to combine it with the feat from the Dragon Compendium that increases Enhancement bonuses to ability scores by 2. Coupled with the PH2 spells Animalistic Power and Chasing Perfection, and you're looking at a +6 Str bonus from a 2nd level spell slot (and +4 Dex/Con), or a +8 Str bonus from a 6th level spell (and a +6 to everything else).

Another option for Gishes is Fist of Stone, which all ready provides a +6 Enhancement bonus to Str as is.

Both are good option, it need to be reserve for important fight otherwise it get expensive quickly but a nice still a nice combo.

I just realise that if you're a Paragnostic Initiate (CC p97) you can increase the bonus by 2 more.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 05:13 PM
I just realise that if you're a Paragnostic Initiate (CC p97) you can increase the bonus by 2 more.

How? The only ability they have relating to Transmutation spells raises the Caster Level by 1. I think you meant Sanctified One of Kord, but that only applies a bonus to Str equal to your class level for a few rounds.

zagan
2010-03-19, 05:17 PM
No, it's really Paragnostic Initiate, it's one of the ability that can be gain with tactical combat. Here's the revelant text:


Physical Augmentation: Choose one of your physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution). When any spell* that applies a bonus or penalty to this score is cast upon you by someone else, any bonus granted increases by 2, and any penalty imposed is reduced by 2 (minimum penalty 1). You can select this ability multiple times, choosing a different ability score each time. (Knowledge [nature] 6 ranks)

RelentlessImp
2010-03-19, 05:31 PM
Wish would do it. The thing that would help you with, is if you were planning on casting it multiple times to get the full inherent bonus. You'd only have to cast it twice instead of 5 times. So, it basically saves you 15,000 XP. The other option to get up to +5 is Tomes, which are expensive.

Since the debut of Complete Arcane, Wish has never cost more than 500xp, no matter how many times you cast it. Just wanted to point that out.

Myou
2010-03-19, 05:46 PM
Since the debut of Complete Arcane, Wish has never cost more than 500xp, no matter how many times you cast it. Just wanted to point that out.

How so? text

Zeful
2010-03-19, 05:52 PM
I want to say Thought Bottles.

Myou
2010-03-19, 05:53 PM
I want to say Thought Bottles.

Yeah, but I didn't think they had any XP cost. I'm probably just forgetting it.

penbed400
2010-03-19, 05:53 PM
How so? text

Thought bottles allow you to store what your experience points are at a cost of 500 xp, then when you listen to it again you regain all of those experience points back. Very cheap and cheesy when it comes to item crafting and using spells with lots of experience loss such as wish.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-19, 05:56 PM
Try adding it to an eternal wand, then using that wand to create a belt (or gauntlets) of giant's strength. Cheap way to get some extra goods.

Could work on eternal wands of other spells, too.

Zeful
2010-03-19, 05:59 PM
How are you casting spells with an XP cost if all your XP (-500) is in the Thought Bottle? You can't spend XP if doing so would drop you a level and you don't have any (more accurately it's in the Thought Bottle).

tyckspoon
2010-03-19, 07:34 PM
How are you casting spells with an XP cost if all your XP (-500) is in the Thought Bottle? You can't spend XP if doing so would drop you a level and you don't have any (more accurately it's in the Thought Bottle).

They don't actually consume your XP, except for the 500 point charge to activate the bottle. If they did, using a Thought Bottle would de-level you all the way down to 1. The Thought Bottle simply saves a value=Current XP -500, and then when you use it again it resets your XP to that saved value.

RelentlessImp
2010-03-19, 08:45 PM
They don't actually consume your XP, except for the 500 point charge to activate the bottle. If they did, using a Thought Bottle would de-level you all the way down to 1. The Thought Bottle simply saves a value=Current XP -500, and then when you use it again it resets your XP to that saved value.

This, plus, Wish doesn't actually cost anything when you can cast Planar Binding or Planar Ally to call in multiple Efreeti with 3/day Wishes. So, no, Wish has never cost anything at all.

Scoot
2010-03-19, 08:53 PM
It's not a spell, but there's a bath in Alchemy and Herbalists that gives a +2 Alchemical bonus to all physical stats. Permanent.