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magic9mushroom
2010-03-20, 06:07 AM
Here. (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) Look at "Eternal Hero", specifically "Continual Resurrection".

I mean, WTF.

Seffbasilisk
2010-03-20, 06:19 AM
They also have a class feature called "Quickening." What did you really expect?

It's 4E, and it's Epic Levels.

To quote Clark Gable "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

Kosjsjach
2010-03-20, 06:20 AM
Really, you don't even need to read the article. "Continual Resurrection" is pretty much exactly what it sounds like.

I can't pretend to be too familiar with 4E, but... huh.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-20, 06:26 AM
No, this is 3.5-compatible material. This was when they were doing 4th edition and spat this out as a taster.

Yeah.

Ashtagon
2010-03-20, 06:29 AM
Actually, its 3.5e, not 4e. But still, this was from the days they were thinking "3.x is dying. May as well give it a good hard shove into the grave we've been digging".

Runestar
2010-03-20, 06:37 AM
Who even dies permanently in epic anymore? Heck, I would argue that ability is worthless, since you have to wait till the next day, while resurrection spells take only minutes to cast (possibly faster if you use limited wish, wish, miracle or revivify). :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2010-03-20, 06:41 AM
At least they didn't give the Eternal Hero a "Prince of the Universe" class feature. :smallwink:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-20, 06:42 AM
Who even dies permanently in epic anymore? Heck, I would argue that ability is worthless, since you have to wait till the next day, while resurrection spells take only minutes to cast (possibly faster if you use limited wish, wish, miracle or revivify). :smalltongue:

But this means you return from a TPK, even if all your Contingencies are removed.

olentu
2010-03-20, 06:43 AM
Assuming one must be level 21 and the player still cares to play the character then it is epic so in general either everyone is back in at most a day (quite possibly within the same round) since they died or have been soul killed or something of the like.

Edit: If one gets TPKd then unless the enemy really does not care (and if they do not the elan cleric or whatever on the personal demiplane brings everyone back) everyone gets used as a spell component.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-20, 06:50 AM
Okay, I guess.

But this still means that you would survive THE DESTRUCTION! OF REALITY! ITSELF!

Volkov
2010-03-20, 06:56 AM
Assuming one must be level 21 and the player still cares to play the character then it is epic so in general either everyone is back in at most a day (quite possibly within the same round) since they died or have been soul killed or something of the like.

Edit: If one gets TPKd then unless the enemy really does not care (and if they do not the elan cleric or whatever on the personal demiplane brings everyone back) everyone gets used as a spell component.

If their soul is killed, resurrection is explicitly stated to be impossible.

olentu
2010-03-20, 06:58 AM
If their soul is killed, resurrection is explicitly stated to be impossible.

It think that this was rather my point.

Zergrusheddie
2010-03-20, 06:58 AM
Okay, I guess.

But this still means that you would survive THE DESTRUCTION! OF REALITY! ITSELF!

I dunno. If it involves an explosion, all the level level 2 Monks or Rogues have a 5% chance of surviving too. It's Epic level stuff. At level 21, the game simply falls apart. If the party was ever going to be a threat to Mordenkainen, he would have just traveled in time and hit your father with an Orb of Force as he was being born. Hell, a level 21 Wizard could probably give Pun-Pun a run for his money.

Volkov
2010-03-20, 07:00 AM
I dunno. If it involves an explosion, all the level level 2 Monks or Rogues have a 5% chance of surviving too. It's Epic level stuff. At level 21, the game simply falls apart. If the party was ever going to be a threat to Mordenkainen, he would have just traveled in time and hit your father with an Orb of Force as he was being born. Hell, a level 21 Wizard could probably give Pun-Pun a run for his money.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! No. Pun-pun already has every ability ever and always goes first, the wizard has been made a monstrous thrall with no saving throw already.

AslanCross
2010-03-20, 07:00 AM
Okay, I guess.

But this still means that you would survive THE DESTRUCTION! OF REALITY! ITSELF!

It simply says that the character is raised the next day. If the next day never comes...

magic9mushroom
2010-03-20, 07:27 AM
It simply says that the character is raised the next day. If the next day never comes...

It was a Doctor Who reference.

The Reality Bomb wouldn't have actually destroyed reality so much as all matter in all possible universes and dimensions.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-20, 09:46 AM
Yeah, frankly, I think it's pretty meh - you save 25,000 gp? Whoopty doo.

Ryuuk
2010-03-20, 09:55 AM
The ability only gives you 2 extra lives each day, 4 at 30th level. Every Epic Destiny gives you some way of sidestepping death for a bit.

Consider this, scratch all the epic rules in 3.5, force everyone to take an Epic Destiny at 21st level, and compare that to normal 3.5 epic play. Which is more workable?

Any of those Epic Destinies cost you your Epic feats from 21st to 30th level, as long as you also remove Epic Bonus feats, Epic Spell Casting will never get into a game with Epic Destinies.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-20, 09:58 AM
Nothing bad or wrong with it. At high epic levels, you're going to have feats with which to cleave the entire world in a standart action, destroy an entire pantheon, make colourless fire that can harm even creatures immune to fire damage rain from the sky over the multiverse, and get to make yourself the ultimate jumplomancer who can also simultaneously knit a scarf that enthralls every creature in a radius of 1 trillion kilometers around.

Getting a free True Ressurection is nothing more than a freebie.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-20, 10:00 AM
Nothing bad or wrong with it. At high epic levels, 16th level you're going to have feats spells with which to cleave the entire world in a standart action, destroy an entire pantheon, make colourless fire that can harm even creatures immune to fire damage rain from the sky over the multiverse, and get to make yourself the ultimate jumplomancer who can also simultaneously knit a scarf that enthralls every creature in a radius of 1 trillion kilometers around.

Getting a free True Ressurection is nothing more than a freebie.I fixed that for you.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-20, 10:03 AM
Eh, level 16? That's where clerics, druids and wizards are still roaming around with level 8 spells.

Care to elaborate? A spell that lets you cleave the entire world and destroy entire pantheons can be useful for a campaign in the hands of the big bad evil guy/girl.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-20, 10:03 AM
Any of those Epic Destinies cost you your Epic feats from 21st to 30th level, as long as you also remove Epic Bonus feats, Epic Spell Casting will never get into a game with Epic Destinies.

If you pick an epic destiny, you'd be right. If you don't, well then you've won the game.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-20, 10:05 AM
Eh, level 16? That's where clerics, druids and wizards are still roaming around with level 8 spells.

Care to elaborate? A spell that lets you cleave the entire world and destroy entire pantheons can be useful for a campaign in the hands of the big bad evil guy/girl.I can get infinite wishes each round by level 1 with splats, or by level 6 or so Core-only.

Not including Pun-Pun.

Ryuuk
2010-03-20, 10:05 AM
That's why you have everyone grab one. They seem like a replacement more than an add on.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-20, 10:21 AM
I can get infinite wishes each round by level 1 with splats, or by level 6 or so Core-only.Wish can't do anything of the above without bad things happening to you in all cases, and still failing or not working like you wanted, even with summon monster- and conjure spells.

Any alternatives to that?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-20, 10:46 AM
Wish can't do anything of the above without bad things happening to you in all cases, and still failing or not working like you wanted, even with summon monster- and conjure spells.

Any alternatives to that?You can wish for magic items that would do all those; there's no limit to what you can wish for, magic-item-wise (the only stipulation is that the XP cost increases to account for the price of the magic item, and simulacra of efreeti [gotten via summon mirror mephit and Precocious Apprentice] don't have XP costs on their wish SLA).

Destroying the world: Use those wishes for an Explosive Spell'd casting of explosive runes (cast in the weightless depths of space) on a sheet of paper large enough to cover the moon that can be seen easily from the planet's surface (which should destroy at least half the world, no Reflex save to avoid [force] damage due to the wording on explosive runes, and they'd take so many d6s in explosive damage from being hurled far enough away that they can no longer see the runes that there wouldn't even be a red smear left.

Destroying a pantheon: Use some wishes to get shrink item on a bunch of really heavy boulders, tie them all together in bundles, then use another wish for a telekinesis to hurl them all at the gods of your choice. Upon impact, they expand, dealing approximately 60,000d6 points of damage when and if they hit, easily enough to kill entire pantheons. And considering that you can wish for that ranger spell that makes the next attack roll you make a natural 20...

All-damaging fire: Wish for an item of fireball (at will) affected by the Searing Spell and Widen Spell feats. And if the range is what you're going for, an item of the locate city bomb.

It's all doable.

Ashiel
2010-03-20, 10:58 AM
Wish can't do anything of the above without bad things happening to you in all cases, and still failing or not working like you wanted, even with summon monster- and conjure spells.

Any alternatives to that?

Yes. As written, the 3.5 Wish as a spell-like ability can create any magic item regardless of its power or cost. This means that by 6th level, core-only, Lycanthromancer could have a magic item (let's say a ring) that does anything and everything. Regardless of the cost to create in gold or experience costs.

Since my players have used Genies in the past, we had to clean up the Wish spell a little bit. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 10:59 AM
To be back on topic: Epic Destinies are pretty good for non-casters.

And yeah Spell-like Wishes are overpowered.

Sir Giacomo
2010-03-20, 11:16 AM
Yes. As written, the 3.5 Wish as a spell-like ability can create any magic item regardless of its power or cost. This means that by 6th level, core-only, Lycanthromancer could have a magic item (let's say a ring) that does anything and everything. Regardless of the cost to create in gold or experience costs.

Since my players have used Genies in the past, we had to clean up the Wish spell a little bit. :smalltongue:

No, as written, the 3.5 wish spell cast as an SLA by a creature summoned/duplicated by the caster is completely DM-dependant since a caster will hardly ever be able to know what kind of creature to get for the wish SLA ability (see knowledge skill description).

So, theoretically possible, completely unlikely in practice. As in, about the same DC for that knowledge-the planes check, as is the DC for knowledge-geography to find that particularly rare element in the campaign that can destroy a whole world.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

DementedFellow
2010-03-20, 11:22 AM
No, as written, the 3.5 wish spell cast as an SLA by a creature summoned/duplicated by the caster is completely DM-dependant since a caster will hardly ever be able to know what kind of creature to get for the wish SLA ability (see knowledge skill description).

So, theoretically possible, completely unlikely in practice. As in, about the same DC for that knowledge-the planes check, as is the DC for knowledge-geography to find that particularly rare element in the campaign that can destroy a whole world.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

If we are going to say that something won't work because most DMs wont allow it, then we wouldn't be discussing that epic prestige class in the first place.

Kylarra
2010-03-20, 11:24 AM
I dunno why someone who likes to craft random builds involving beholder mage and tainted scholar is complaining about a minor thing like ressurection in epic levels.

sofawall
2010-03-20, 11:25 AM
You can wish for magic items that would do all those; there's no limit to what you can wish for, magic-item-wise (the only stipulation is that the XP cost increases to account for the price of the magic item, and simulacra of efreeti [gotten via summon mirror mephit and Precocious Apprentice] don't have XP costs on their wish SLA).

Destroying the world: Use those wishes for an Explosive Spell'd casting of explosive runes (cast in the weightless depths of space) on a sheet of paper large enough to cover the moon that can be seen easily from the planet's surface (which should destroy at least half the world, no Reflex save to avoid [force] damage due to the wording on explosive runes, and they'd take so many d6s in explosive damage from being hurled far enough away that they can no longer see the runes that there wouldn't even be a red smear left.

Destroying a pantheon: Use some wishes to get shrink item on a bunch of really heavy boulders, tie them all together in bundles, then use another wish for a telekinesis to hurl them all at the gods of your choice. Upon impact, they expand, dealing approximately 60,000d6 points of damage when and if they hit, easily enough to kill entire pantheons. And considering that you can wish for that ranger spell that makes the next attack roll you make a natural 20...

All-damaging fire: Wish for an item of fireball (at will) affected by the Searing Spell and Widen Spell feats. And if the range is what you're going for, an item of the locate city bomb.

It's all doable.

Destroying the Earth: Everyone on the Earth is dead, but the Earth itself is rather fine. Care to try again?

Destroying a Pantheon: Why do you expect something with Epic Spellcasting to fall to that? Would you expect a level 17 wizard to die to that? No? Then why would Epic Spellcasting?

All-Damaging Fire: Sure, it does damage to immune things, but only half. That seems rather less than optimal. Also, you're going to need fly, if you want it to fall from the sky.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-20, 11:29 AM
Destroying the Earth: Everyone on the Earth is dead, but the Earth itself is rather fine. Care to try again?

Destroying a Pantheon: Why do you expect something with Epic Spellcasting to fall to that? Would you expect a level 17 wizard to die to that? No? Then why would Epic Spellcasting?

All-Damaging Fire: Sure, it does damage to immune things, but only half. That seems rather less than optimal. Also, you're going to need fly, if you want it to fall from the sky.Did you want me to just say, "wish for an item that does it"?

Because I can.

This way actually takes a bit more thought.

Also, gods don't get epic spellcasting. They're all 20th level spellcasters at best, according to their stat blocks.

Mongoose87
2010-03-20, 11:35 AM
So, opinions requested, if you were going to use the Epic Destinies in place of Epic feats, would you allow continued progression of normal feats?

Zeta Kai
2010-03-20, 11:41 AM
Continual Resurrection: At 21st level, you gain the ability to return from the dead. At dawn each day, if you are dead, you are restored to life (as true resurrection). You can set a place where you want to be resurrected. (You must be standing in that place when you make the choice.) When you are resurrected, you can choose to be resurrected in the place you choose or in the place you died. You can choose a new location for your place of resurrection once per level.

Continual Resurrection: You win D&D. Or at least, you can't really lose.

sofawall
2010-03-20, 11:43 AM
Also, gods don't get epic spellcasting. They're all 20th level spellcasters at best, according to their stat blocks.

Luckily, a level 20 wizard/1 commoner can use epic spellcasting. Good thing the spellcasting gods are a good bit more powerful than that.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-20, 11:51 AM
You can wish for magic items that would do all those; there's no limit to what you can wish for, magic-item-wise (the only stipulation is that the XP cost increases to account for the price of the magic item, and simulacra of efreeti [gotten via summon mirror mephit and Precocious Apprentice] don't have XP costs on their wish SLA).This is clear, it's rather how to use the wish-spell to emulate epic-level shenanigans.


Destroying the world: Use those wishes for an Explosive Spell'd casting of explosive runes (cast in the weightless depths of space) on a sheet of paper large enough to cover the moon that can be seen easily from the planet's surface (which should destroy at least half the world, no Reflex save to avoid [force] damage due to the wording on explosive runes, and they'd take so many d6s in explosive damage from being hurled far enough away that they can no longer see the runes that there wouldn't even be a red smear left.Only if you're next to the runes (making you technically able to read it, although not really, but for the sake of rules-lawyering, let's allow it) do you get the full damage. If you're within 10 feet of the rune, you get a saving throw. Further away, you don't get any damage at all. The people on the world who read the rune situated on the moon wouldn't get any damage, only whatever moon rabbit is hoping near the rune would. They would detonate the rune, but get no harm through it.


Destroying a pantheon: Use some wishes to get shrink item on a bunch of really heavy boulders, tie them all together in bundles, then use another wish for a telekinesis to hurl them all at the gods of your choice. Upon impact, they expand, dealing approximately 60,000d6 points of damage when and if they hit, easily enough to kill entire pantheons. And considering that you can wish for that ranger spell that makes the next attack roll you make a natural 20...You can only hurl up to 375 pounds. Also, if you want to get rules-lawyering, shrink item doesn't specifically change the weight of the object that is being affected (although it changes its volume and mass, but not weight), so you'd still have one or several tiny bulder of maximally 375 pound together that you're trying to hurl at a god (doing only negligable damage if at all), expanding or not. And don't get started on different gravitational forces...

All-damaging fire: Wish for an item of fireball (at will) affected by the Searing Spell and Widen Spell feats. And if the range is what you're going for, an item of the locate city bomb.Locate City Bomb is iffy, but okay.
It's all doable.I'd prefer to not deal with rules-lawyering to that extent.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-20, 12:04 PM
Luckily, a level 20 wizard/1 commoner can use epic spellcasting. Good thing the spellcasting gods are a good bit more powerful than that.

I believe the point was that the gods as written don't use epic rules at all. If you rewrite their stats to make them more, y'know, godly then of course they'd take advantage of epic stuff.

Khatoblepas
2010-03-20, 12:09 PM
Eh, Continual Ressurrection is okay and thematic. Epic characters have more to worry about than death. Soul Bind will prevent ressurrection, as will animating the corpse into an undead, or finding a way to reduce the character's Str, Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha to 0 permanently or at least persistantly. They're not dead if they're sleeping, or turned into a Yellow Musk Zombie. Or a monstrous thrall. Or had their souls consumed by some horrible monster. Or turned into a spawn.

Epic monsters are likely to do one of the above or more. An epic character who dies normally hasn't really died at all.

Eurus
2010-03-20, 12:31 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! No. Pun-pun already has every ability ever and always goes first, the wizard has been made a monstrous thrall with no saving throw already.

Well yeah, or alternately the level 21 wizard already ascended to omnipotence by chain-gating every sufficiently powerful outsider in existence (yes, all of them. Yes, there are infinite. Doesn't matter, he figured out a way to get them all. :smalltongue:).

(And if you're going to counter by saying that Pun-Pun goes off at a lower level, and thus makes it first, I can only respond by saying that the epic mage in question is a dragon or equally ancient race, and came to power before kobold-kind ever came into being. :smallamused:)


Er. On topic. Yeah, I'm just not impressed by the resurrection thing. Anything that kills an epic character has got to kind of assume that he'll come back unless stopped -- why should a TPK even be a possibility when an 8th-level spell (Clone) already grants you near-assured survival from a party wipe? In epic, anything short of soul-destroying can be pretty much classified as nonlethal on the grounds of "it'll grow back."

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-20, 12:45 PM
Well yeah, or alternately the level 21 wizard already ascended to omnipotence by chain-gating every sufficiently powerful outsider in existence (yes, all of them. Yes, there are infinite. Doesn't matter, he figured out a way to get them all. :smalltongue:).

(And if you're going to counter by saying that Pun-Pun goes off at a lower level, and thus makes it first, I can only respond by saying that the epic mage in question is a dragon or equally ancient race, and came to power before kobold-kind ever came into being. :smallamused:)

Except that is not omnipotent. Only Pun-Pun is truly omnipotent. You just have a huge number of outsiders which pun-pun kills as a free action (or more accurately, one of his infinite standard actions) when he is in an alternate reality, which you have no way of knowing about unless you are the omniscifer, or even accessing. The only way you stop pun-pun's ascension is by being the omniscifer, and if you can be x race, so can pun-pun. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 01:00 PM
Er. On topic. Yeah, I'm just not impressed by the resurrection thing. Anything that kills an epic character has got to kind of assume that he'll come back unless stopped -- why should a TPK even be a possibility when an 8th-level spell (Clone) already grants you near-assured survival from a party wipe? In epic, anything short of soul-destroying can be pretty much classified as nonlethal on the grounds of "it'll grow back."

Clone is personal only. Way to let the Non-casters die hero.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-20, 01:13 PM
I dunno why someone who likes to craft random builds involving beholder mage and tainted scholar is complaining about a minor thing like ressurection in epic levels.

Haha, someone's on the ball!

Heroes of Horror was badly edited and they seem to have missed the fact that a Tainted Scholar will generally want bucketloads of Con, Wis, and taint - the Tainted Scholars in their examples have moderate to low-severe taint with average or even subpar Con and Wis.

Beholder Mage was never intended for PCs.

In other words, I'm not calling it out for being broken, I'm calling it out for being obviously broken. Non-obvious brokenness shows the game designers to be insufficiently thorough. Obvious brokenness shows, well... exactly what I said in the thread title.

Kylarra
2010-03-20, 01:22 PM
Er... it says on the box that you're being granted immortality though, so it's not like you're sneaking something shifty past a DM.


Immortality

Every epic destiny gives you immortality -- either true everlasting life or a legacy that will live forever. One way or another, you will move beyond mortal affairs. You might leave the world, be reincarnated as a new hero, die a glorious death, or enter the realm of the deities and assume divine power. This is the end of your adventuring career, and it provides a satisfying ending to your character's story. Which is not to say that your story might not have an epilogue . . . there are many ways you might return and find adventure once again. The forms of immortality listed here include ways in which the DM might incorporate the legacy of your epic hero into a future campaign.

Personally, I'd rather "obviously broken" things that are easy to deny or see the issues with than a complicated conglomeration of feats and classes spanning a dozen sourcebooks that allows you to break the campaign in half, and continual ress doesn't even do that for most campaigns.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-20, 03:06 PM
Well yeah, or alternately the level 21 wizard already ascended to omnipotence by chain-gating every sufficiently powerful outsider in existence (yes, all of them. Yes, there are infinite. Doesn't matter, he figured out a way to get them all. :smalltongue:).

See. I don't think you quite get Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun gives himself the ability: Kill Wizard(Ex). It deals Death damage to any or all wizards in any variant of the time-space continuum that Pun-Pun desires as a free action. No save.

And that's assuming he doesn't have the I Win(Ex) ability.

In short: Pun-Pun can't be argued against. He simply wins. Because his capacity for abilities is reliant only on a single person's imagination(or lack thereof).

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 03:08 PM
See. I don't think you quite get Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun gives himself the ability: Kill Wizard(Ex). It deals Death damage to any or all wizards in any variant of the time-space continuum that Pun-Pun desires as a free action. No save.

And that's assuming he doesn't have the I Win(Ex) ability.

In short: Pun-Pun can't be argued against. He simply wins. Because his capacity for abilities is reliant only on a single person's imagination(or lack thereof).

What if the Wizard is immune to death effects (since you deal Death damage which is a effect that says death)?

Sliver
2010-03-20, 03:14 PM
What if the Wizard is immune to death effects (since you deal Death damage which is a effect that says death)?

Then he grants himself the ability to strip you of the death immunity. No SR, No save, No Nothing.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-20, 03:29 PM
What if the Wizard is immune to death effects (since you deal Death damage which is a effect that says death)?

Death damage isn't a death effect as the ability does not have the [Death] descriptor. It simples deals damage equal to Death.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 03:32 PM
Death damage isn't a death effect as the ability does not have the [Death] descriptor. It simples deals damage equal to Death.

No Death descriptor is a Death spell.
Death damage is death effect.

Thespianus
2010-03-20, 03:49 PM
Yeah, frankly, I think it's pretty meh - you save 25,000 gp? Whoopty doo.

Compare it to the other 21st level feats on the page, and..well..

"Continual Resurrection" ranks a tad higher than , say, "Improved Precision Damage": All your D6 of sneak attack damage are now D8s. Whoohoo.

:)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-20, 03:54 PM
Compare it to the other 21st level feats on the page, and..well..

"Continual Resurrection" ranks a tad higher than , say, "Improved Precision Damage": All your D6 of sneak attack damage are now D8s. Whoohoo.

:)

Well, in general martial feats suck, so it's not all that surprising. Heck, compare regular resurrection to regular precision damage and it comes out the same way. :smallwink:

peacenlove
2010-03-20, 03:56 PM
What if the Wizard is immune to death effects (since you deal Death damage which is a effect that says death)?

Immunity to death effects doesn't protect against all death effects ironically. Specifically it does not affect Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) amongst other effects.

EDIT: Also at those levels death is just one way to threaten a player. How would this ability help a player from being teleported into a dead magic plane, or be imprisoned via the spell or even his soul bound into an object via soul bind or destroyed via a bargest?
We are talking about epic baby!

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-20, 04:02 PM
Then he grants himself the ability to strip you of the death immunity. No SR, No save, No Nothing.

This. Or he grants himself the ability to pierce or ignore any and all immunities. It's all good.

peacenlove
2010-03-20, 04:09 PM
Btw if you wanna fight this ability capture his body intact and fill it with truckloads of poison and diseases. His spells wear off when he dies so when he is ressurected he will die instantly from poison damage AND the poison will remain in his system.
Alternatively scry sensors so you know where he will ressurect and kill him before he sets his defences. Rinse and repeat.

Eurus
2010-03-20, 04:22 PM
See. I don't think you quite get Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun gives himself the ability: Kill Wizard(Ex). It deals Death damage to any or all wizards in any variant of the time-space continuum that Pun-Pun desires as a free action. No save.

And that's assuming he doesn't have the I Win(Ex) ability.

In short: Pun-Pun can't be argued against. He simply wins. Because his capacity for abilities is reliant only on a single person's imagination(or lack thereof).

Theoretically, Epic Magic does the same. Heck, some pre-existing magic does the same (Teleport Through Time + Eschew Materials + sufficient spamming of divinations?). Of course, if you get into time travel then things get messy... are you letting him basically grandfather paradox himself in by bringing about the circumstances leading to his own birth when the wizard prevents them? Because you could argue that the wizard could do the same, then.

...Anyway. If you make the reasonable assumption that being killed before he ascends prevents the now-destroyed Pun-Pun from traveling his nonexistant self back in time to prevent his own death with powers he never attained, yeah, a wizard who pops up first can stop him. Which makes the question, do any wizards reach epic levels before Pun-Pun? But that's not really the point of this thread. >_>

Volkov
2010-03-20, 05:09 PM
No, as written, the 3.5 wish spell cast as an SLA by a creature summoned/duplicated by the caster is completely DM-dependant since a caster will hardly ever be able to know what kind of creature to get for the wish SLA ability (see knowledge skill description).

So, theoretically possible, completely unlikely in practice. As in, about the same DC for that knowledge-the planes check, as is the DC for knowledge-geography to find that particularly rare element in the campaign that can destroy a whole world.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

I have a question to ask you. Is your username by any chance influenced by that of the main character of rise of legends?

ScionoftheVoid
2010-03-20, 05:58 PM
No, as written, the 3.5 wish spell cast as an SLA by a creature summoned/duplicated by the caster is completely DM-dependant since a caster will hardly ever be able to know what kind of creature to get for the wish SLA ability (see knowledge skill description).

So, theoretically possible, completely unlikely in practice. As in, about the same DC for that knowledge-the planes check, as is the DC for knowledge-geography to find that particularly rare element in the campaign that can destroy a whole world.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Knowledge DC to know something useful about Efreeti (specifically, if they grant Wishes like the rumours say they do) 20 (10 base + 10 HD). Knowledge check able to be made at level one: 20 Int (18+2 racial from Grey Elf) gives a +5, 4 ranks in Knowledge: The Planes, Skill Focus (same) for +3. +12 total. Take ten for one piece of useful information, guaranteed. Roll and you can get up to 3 useful bits of information. Add spells, a masterwork tool, or at least a few other things to push it higher. So the check is very likely made by anyone trying to make it, Pun-Pun (level one form) uses Knowledge: Religion at a DC 25 (IIRC) so it's ceratinly possible. Then you just wish for a magic item to do whatever you want (up to and including an item which does whatever you want, literally, on command).

DM-dependence applies to everything equally, it's not really an argument.

Flickerdart
2010-03-20, 06:09 PM
Anything Pun-Pun can do, a Sarrukh could have already done without the whole mucking about with demons nonsense.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 06:13 PM
True, a Sarrukh could tell us how they make cinnimon toast crunch. Pun-Pun can't. Word of god (original creator) said so.

It is his one weakness.

chiasaur11
2010-03-20, 06:49 PM
Anything Pun-Pun can do, a Sarrukh could have already done without the whole mucking about with demons nonsense.

Well, not so much.

Sarrukhs can't give abilities to other Sarrukhs, and really, giving a minion omnipotence just reeks of bad idea.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-20, 07:08 PM
Stuff about trying to defeat Pun-Pun

To put it plainly: No.

Pun-Pun grants himself the ability to retroactively grant himself abilities. He retroactively becomes immune to being affected by any being not named Pun-Pun. He's retroactively invincible.

You see: Epic magic plays by the rules. Admittedly, they're very lax rules but they're rules all the same. Pun-Pun's poorly worded ability allows him to say "Screw the Rules, I have moneyabilities!"

You can't defeat Pun-Pun without using another Pun-Pun as you are playing within a rules system Pun-Pun can rewrite on a whim.

For example: And Then Everybody Sucked(Ex): This ability instantly and retroactively strips Infinite targets within Infinite range across the entire timeline and throughout any alternate realities, universes, or other realms of existence of all (Ex), (Su), (Sp), magic, psionic, maneuver-based, incarnum-based, binding-based, deific, (etc) abilities. Pun-Pun is unaffected by this ability.

Flickerdart
2010-03-20, 07:17 PM
Well, not so much.

Sarrukhs can't give abilities to other Sarrukhs, and really, giving a minion omnipotence just reeks of bad idea.
1. Reduce a creature's mental scores to 0.
2. Give creature omnipotence.
3. True Mind Switch.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 07:20 PM
1. Reduce a creature's mental scores to 0.
2. Give creature omnipotence.
3. True Mind Switch.

What would you cast Ego Whip?

Flickerdart
2010-03-20, 07:36 PM
Doesn't really matter. Point is, you keep your mental stats when you switch. It could be anything that makes the target incapable of doing anything funny, but wouldn't stop you once you're in the body.

Eurus
2010-03-20, 09:26 PM
To put it plainly: No.

Pun-Pun grants himself the ability to retroactively grant himself abilities. He retroactively becomes immune to being affected by any being not named Pun-Pun. He's retroactively invincible.

You see: Epic magic plays by the rules. Admittedly, they're very lax rules but they're rules all the same. Pun-Pun's poorly worded ability allows him to say "Screw the Rules, I have moneyabilities!"

You can't defeat Pun-Pun without using another Pun-Pun as you are playing within a rules system Pun-Pun can rewrite on a whim.

For example: And Then Everybody Sucked(Ex): This ability instantly and retroactively strips Infinite targets within Infinite range across the entire timeline and throughout any alternate realities, universes, or other realms of existence of all (Ex), (Su), (Sp), magic, psionic, maneuver-based, incarnum-based, binding-based, deific, (etc) abilities. Pun-Pun is unaffected by this ability.

That still requires that there be a Pun-Pun at some point to have given himself that ability, at some point in time somewhere. >_> But at this point, I'm going to wave the white flag and say "okay, fine."

DragoonWraith
2010-03-20, 09:33 PM
Doesn't really matter. Point is, you keep your mental stats when you switch. It could be anything that makes the target incapable of doing anything funny, but wouldn't stop you once you're in the body.
But then you have your natural mental scores, and not Pun-Pun's arbitrarily high ones, and he therefore curb-stomps you.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-21, 04:34 AM
No Death descriptor is a Death spell.
Death damage is death effect.

Death damage is not necessarily a death effect. See: Implosion, Blasphemy.

Thespianus
2010-03-21, 05:28 AM
Well, in general martial feats suck, so it's not all that surprising. Heck, compare regular resurrection to regular precision damage and it comes out the same way. :smallwink:

True dat.

Then again, "Continual Resurrection" should be a level 10 class ability for the Monk. It might make it playable. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-21, 05:48 AM
The only way to stop pun pun is to legitimately stop him from becoming a god before he does, without resorting to temporal shenanigans. Which means you have to be able to stop him at the earliest level he's possible, which is 1.

Which isn't possible. The original incarnation was trumped by the omnifiscer, as it gained it's infinite power earlier than Pun pun.

Now, there's no real way. Which doesn't matter because pun pun will never exist in a game.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-21, 06:09 AM
The only way to stop pun pun is to legitimately stop him from becoming a god before he does, without resorting to temporal shenanigans. Which means you have to be able to stop him at the earliest level he's possible, which is 1.

Which isn't possible. The original incarnation was trumped by the omnifiscer, as it gained it's infinite power earlier than Pun pun.

Now, there's no real way. Which doesn't matter because pun pun will never exist in a game.

Incorrect. Because not all things in the universe are the same level.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 08:56 AM
The only way to stop pun pun is to legitimately stop him from becoming a god before he does, without resorting to temporal shenanigans. Which means you have to be able to stop him at the earliest level he's possible, which is 1.

Which isn't possible. The original incarnation was trumped by the omnifiscer, as it gained it's infinite power earlier than Pun pun.

Now, there's no real way. Which doesn't matter because pun pun will never exist in a game.A level 1 wizard could get infinite wishes per round, though it does take a few minutes to get going.

I suppose it depends on who starts the process first.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 09:23 AM
Death damage is not necessarily a death effect. See: Implosion, Blasphemy.

Those spells disagree:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Implosion.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm

It doesn't deal death damage.

Next time, read the spells or post the links so we can both see if you are right. The spells don't deal death damage. They just kill you.

So Death ward does protect against the hypothetical ability that causes death damage.

Toric
2010-03-21, 10:23 AM
Regarding the original topic: I don't see what the problem is. I look at the capstone for the Eternal Hero and instantly think "Nameless One." This cannot be a bad thing.

Mongoose87
2010-03-21, 10:58 AM
Regarding the original topic: I don't see what the problem is. I look at the capstone for the Eternal Hero and instantly think "Nameless One." This cannot be a bad thing.

I thought the same thing, but the level is a bit high.

Yukitsu
2010-03-21, 11:47 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! No. Pun-pun already has every ability ever and always goes first, the wizard has been made a monstrous thrall with no saving throw already.

Assuming pp hasn't done that yet, a 21 wizard could just go through the motions and reach parity though.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-21, 12:04 PM
But then he'd just be Pun-Pun with a different name. A slow Pun-Pun, but Pun-Pun nonetheless.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-21, 12:26 PM
Incorrect. Because not all things in the universe are the same level.

While this is true, there exists a flaw in this this. When you go all arbitrary and say "well, there was a level 20 wizard before pun pun"?

It's just as easy to say there was a pun pun before the level 20 wizard.

Because it's all arbitrary. Arbitrary is funny like that. It argues for the stalemate. Because it says "nobody wins". If that's all you're ever going to argue for, I'm not gonna debate you. There's no point competing against someone that plays not to win, but simply to not lose with arbitrary meaningless blather.

Here are the original premises, brought up by the Omnificer's creator:


Background Understanding

[Premise 1] Once a character becomes nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent such as Pun-Pun is, circumstances make it impossible for new threats to arise. This is because said nigh-omniscient/omnipotent character would know about any new potential threats and have the capability to quash them before they have a chance to mature.

[Premise 2] With enough time, experience, etc, pretty much any moderately optimized character could become nigh-infinitely powerful. What is impressive about Pun-Pun is that this power level is accomplished with alarming speed, i.e. at level 5.

[Premise 3] Thus, the only accurate way to compare two or more nigh-omniscient characters would be to evaluate the amount of time it takes for these characters to reach their ultimate state.

[Premise 4] Controlling for DM temperament and nonmechanical circumstances, as we must on the Character Optimization Boards, experience points obtained is the best way of comparing timeframes between characters. If character experience point levels are the same, then round-by-round analysis of capability curves would be necessary.

In other words: The only way to have a rational and reasoned discussion it to remove that which is arbitrary. Otherwise, we're all a bunch of 7 year olds on the playground shouting, "nuh uh, I shot YOU first" at each other.

Sir Giacomo
2010-03-21, 04:39 PM
I have a question to ask you. Is your username by any chance influenced by that of the main character of rise of legends?

No :smallsmile:
It is taken from that great character played by Danny Kaye in "the court jester" (I think that is the original title of the 1950s movie).

@ScionoftheVoid: you are indeed correct that a wizard can quite easily gain a high enough knowledge skill mod to gain 3 or more "useful bits of information". But exactly what among the dozens of important details of an efreeti that is, is entirely up to the DM.
To allow such a knowledge in the campaign is simpy the same as giving the medieval characters the knowledge to build modern explosives, weapons or bombs. Theoretically possible, but not really that recommendable.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Flickerdart
2010-03-21, 04:41 PM
It would be rather odd to give people results that Efreeti enjoy long walks on the beach, have their coffee black and speak Ignan with a Mexican accent and not tell them the signature ability of genies.

FatR
2010-03-21, 04:42 PM
Here. (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) Look at "Eternal Hero", specifically "Continual Resurrection".

I mean, WTF.
So... I really don't get what the fuss is about. Basically, this ability just saves you some gold. It's not big news that in high-level DnD simple death is utterly trivial. It was such since 3.0. The description sounds cool, but in actual play this is rather unimpressive, compared even to various high-level 4E builds that allow you to rape the game and be effectively immune to level-appropriate challenges. Compared to 3.X high-level builds... not even on the same plane of existence.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 04:48 PM
It would be rather odd to give people results that Efreeti enjoy long walks on the beach, have their coffee black and speak Ignan with a Mexican accent and not tell them the signature ability of genies.Everyone knows that efreet grant wishes, unless Robin Williams doesn't exist in your campaign setting (and he's like Chuck Norris or Pun Pun; you don't mess with The Big Blue).

Draxar
2010-03-21, 05:49 PM
They also have a class feature called "Quickening." What did you really expect?

It's 4E, and it's Epic Levels.

To quote Clark Gable "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."


At least they didn't give the Eternal Hero a "Prince of the Universe" class feature. :smallwink:


Regarding the original topic: I don't see what the problem is. I look at the capstone for the Eternal Hero and instantly think "Nameless One." This cannot be a bad thing.

Whereas, beyond the Quickening ability, I look at that and think Resurrection Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_Man) far more than I think Highlander. Primarily due to the 'pick a power' effect


death would last a matter of seconds, perhaps minutes at most due to the tektites; their presence in Shelley's body would inevitably revive him, and with a different superhuman power after each "resurrection".

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 05:55 PM
Ironic that the beginning of this thread was discussing 3.5 and thought it was 4th edition.

Also you are reincarnated when you are Resurrection Man: remember he became a woman once.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-21, 05:59 PM
Those spells disagree:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Implosion.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm

It doesn't deal death damage.

Next time, read the spells or post the links so we can both see if you are right. The spells don't deal death damage. They just kill you.

So Death ward does protect against the hypothetical ability that causes death damage.

Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm), surprisingly, doesn't deal death damage. It just kills you. Unsurprisingly, this is a [Death] effect.

Death damage is damage equal to whatever amount of damage causes your Death. As it lacks the [Death] descriptor and does not slay you instantly, Death Ward does jack. Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) only protects from magical Death Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks)(an effect that instantly slays a creature). Ironically, by RAW, this means Death Ward only works on Finger of Death.

In closing: You've failed to get a joke. Congratulations. Stop dragging it out, please.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 06:01 PM
It would have ended then and there but you started it up again.

Finger of death is a [Death] spell. You failed to get the memo.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-21, 06:02 PM
It would have ended then and there but you started it up again.

Finger of death is a [Death] spell. You failed to get the memo.


Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm), surprisingly, doesn't deal death damage. It just kills you. Unsurprisingly, this is a [Death] effect.

Wow. I had no idea.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 06:05 PM
No, [Death] spells are in a different category than death effects.
If they were the same Death Ward would not mention both.
You linked Death attacks (seriously, click your own link).

Death Ward:
The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

Finger of Death = Death spell.
Death damage (if there was a hypothetical effect) = Magical death effect

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-21, 06:09 PM
Death damage (if there was a hypothetical effect) = Magical death effect

Wrong, good sir.

Death Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks), as I linked before, is any effect which slays the character instantly. Dealing damage equal to Death, however, is not slaying you instantly. By RAW, Death Ward does absolute jack against Death damage. Further, by RAW, Death Ward does absolute jack about Implosion or any of the [Alignment Word] spells, despite both of these spells being instantaneous death spells(due to them not slaying you instantly).

To put it plainly: No, Death Ward doesn't help. You still take Death damage.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 06:15 PM
Wrong, good sir.

Death Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks), as I linked before, is any effect which slays the character instantly. Dealing damage equal to Death, however, is not slaying you instantly. By RAW, Death Ward does absolute jack against Death damage. Further, by RAW, Death Ward does absolute jack about Implosion or any of the [Alignment Word] spells, despite both of these spells being instantaneous death spells(due to them not slaying you instantly).

To put it plainly: No, Death Ward doesn't help. You still take Death damage.
As I saif, you linked Death Attacks not Death Effects.
Here is your own link (please read it)-
Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.

•Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
•Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
•In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.
•The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.

Why so you pretend your link says Death Effects when anyone who clicks it reads Death attacks. Are you assuming they mean the same thing?

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-21, 06:18 PM
Why so you pretend your link says Death Effects when anyone who clicks it reads Death attacks. Are you assuming they mean the same thing?

Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm).


The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks), energy drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) , and any negative energy effects.

Why are you advocating a spell that works a certain why when you never bothered to click the links in it's description?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 06:23 PM
Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm).



Why are you advocating a spell that works a certain why when you never bothered to click the links in it's description?

It is Strange that the SRD links that but never details an example.
Finger of Death is a Death spell so there was no reason to mention Death effects in regards to Death Ward (really wasn't the fact that it was a spell proof enough? Are you trying to blur the meaning of death effect?).

I still say this hypothetical death damage is a death effect. You can't prove me wrong because it doesn't exist.
In another reality where it does I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-21, 06:28 PM
It is Strange that the SRD links that but never details an example.
Finger of Death is a Death spell so there was no reason to mention Death effects in regards to Death Ward (really wasn't the fact that it was a spell proof enough? Are you trying to blur the meaning of death effect?).

Given that I've had no hand in creating the spell, I can only guess they specified for the same reason Deathwatch is [Evil].


I still say this hypothetical death damage is a death effect. You can't prove me wrong because it doesn't exist.
In another reality where it does I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Our hypothetical Pun-Pun can make it exist. That, combined with the above(that death effects slay instantly and, by RAW, dealing Death damage is not slaying instantly), would prove you wrong.

In closing: The joke's gone on far too long, and you've mangled it far too much.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 06:35 PM
Customer Service has saidf that death spells like Phantasmal Killer are protected by Death Ward.

I got this from this thread:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19538102/implosion_vs_death_ward?pg=1
"Here is a reply from WOTC customer support concerning rules questions.


Here is what I asked. Short, simple, and to the point:

Does Death Ward protect against the Phantasmal Killer spell?

It has come up more than a few times in the course of campaigns, and we were wondering if we can get an official answer to settle our debates.

Since Phantasmal Killer results in death if the saving throw is failed, yes, it does work against it."

So while CS aren't very reliable- they do think PS is a death effect (though not a death spell since lack [DEATH] descriptor).

Really can we forget that bad joke thing.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-21, 08:33 PM
At least they didn't give the Eternal Hero a "Prince of the Universe" class feature. :smallwink:
Maybe Hero of Time? Reincarnation through generation, and every time you die, you just go back to the dungeon in the next day. Combine it with that PrC from Tome of Battle that gives you a talking floating ball of light, and be an elf.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-21, 08:34 PM
that PrC from Tome of Battle that gives you a talking floating ball of light, and be an elf.
Oh my god, I never made that connection! Brilliant!

Flickerdart
2010-03-21, 09:20 PM
Maybe Hero of Time? Reincarnation through generation, and every time you die, you just go back to the dungeon in the next day. Combine it with that PrC from Tome of Battle that gives you a talking floating ball of light, and be an elf.
You could also get a Soulspark Familiar, which requires only an Incarnate dip.