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View Full Version : [4e] Corpses as difficult terrain



LibraryOgre
2010-03-20, 09:22 AM
So, I'm looking at running a dungeon in 4e to prove some philosophical points about the game, and why Wizards sucks for what they produced as a 4e version of Forgotten Realms, and a thought occurred to me:

While we remove the miniatures of the dead, wouldn't it make more sense to leave them around, as difficult terrain? Does anyone else do this?

Mythestopheles
2010-03-20, 10:02 AM
No, I haven't, but it does seem like an interesting idea.

Zombimode
2010-03-20, 10:26 AM
This idea occurs in some published adventures, where dead creature lie on the battlefield when the PCs enter.

It alway struck me as inconsequent as the soon to be dead enemies of course didnt cause difficult terrain.
It should either apply to all corpes of enough mass, or to none.

Swordgleam
2010-03-20, 12:50 PM
We do that. It also helps to still have the corpses around so that in the race to loot, the PCs can definitively say who is closer to which body.

Though it seems like if you're running a game to prove the point that the game sucks, you will undoubtedly succeed, no matter what the game.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-03-20, 12:55 PM
I'd run out of minis if I left them lying around... but when we've used tokens for the same function, it's worked well.

Deepblue706
2010-03-20, 01:54 PM
I onced tried to do this.

My players were all "WHAT THERE ARR NO RULES FOR THAT"

Except they were less pirate about it.

LibraryOgre
2010-03-20, 02:35 PM
Though it seems like if you're running a game to prove the point that the game sucks, you will undoubtedly succeed, no matter what the game.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't have an issue with the game; it's fun. I just think that the product they called "Forgotten Realms" was a crime. They killed off numerous deities (since the introduction of the Forgotten Realms, 10% of the deities listed in the 2nd edition "God Books" series have died), reshaped the landscape, and all without real purpose... you can easily run the 1e or 2e setting with the 4th edition rules.

Swordgleam
2010-03-20, 03:18 PM
Ah. Yeah, I've seen opinions on that on both sides. Some people feel that it's no longer FR. Others are happy, because this gets rid of the piles and piles of backstory, and lets DMs who are new to FR run a FR campaign in 4e without having to spend a month holed up with all the old supplements and novels.

LibraryOgre
2010-03-20, 03:57 PM
Ah. Yeah, I've seen opinions on that on both sides. Some people feel that it's no longer FR. Others are happy, because this gets rid of the piles and piles of backstory, and lets DMs who are new to FR run a FR campaign in 4e without having to spend a month holed up with all the old supplements and novels.

Here's my thing... they could have done the exact same thing by simply advancing the timeline 100 years. It's a jump, yes, but it kills off most of the human NPCs (aside from Greenwood's Demigods, really), and keeps the basic shape of the world intact. Instead of, say, killing off large numbers of deities, reordering the heavens again, and deciding that everything that existed before is now gone (aka "Pulling a Dragonlance")

Swordgleam
2010-03-20, 04:23 PM
I can see that. I have no stake in the setting, so I don't really have an opinion. But it seems like the 3.5 version still exists, and there's probably most of the same monsters and whatnot, so all they really did is create an additional version of the place.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-20, 04:49 PM
Thing is, though, that given the rules for diagonal movement, a single square of difficult terrain might as well not be there, in most cases.

We use lying down minis to indicate they're prode, by the way.

Mordokai
2010-03-20, 04:52 PM
Corpses of large and larger enemies could still provide some difficulty, tho. Maybe they could count as high ground in the middle, DC 10 Acrobatics/Athletics to climb as move action, DC 30 as part of move action.

ninja_penguin
2010-03-20, 05:07 PM
As noted, due to diagonal movement rules, one square of difficult terrain doesn't cover much. If you really want to have difficult terrain, just make some sort of goo-monster or something that bursts when it dies into a big sticky mess in a burst 1 zone, creating difficult terrain for the rest of the encounter.

LibraryOgre
2010-03-20, 05:22 PM
As noted, due to diagonal movement rules, one square of difficult terrain doesn't cover much. If you really want to have difficult terrain, just make some sort of goo-monster or something that bursts when it dies into a big sticky mess in a burst 1 zone, creating difficult terrain for the rest of the encounter.

Here's the thing. While 1 square isn't much in most cases, the idea that a corpse is difficult terrain can also be applied in conga lines of doom (i.e. narrow space where enemy can only get at you a few at a time), or in creating alternate hazard spaces (i.e. Thunderwaving corpses around).

Tehnar
2010-03-20, 05:44 PM
Its a nice idea.

A few questions:

How do push/pull/slide powers interact with the corpses?
Can a balance (acrobatics) check reduce that to normal terrain?

LibraryOgre
2010-03-20, 07:08 PM
Its a nice idea.

A few questions:

How do push/pull/slide powers interact with the corpses?
Can a balance (acrobatics) check reduce that to normal terrain?

I'd say corpses count as objects, and might let a balance check cover it.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-03-20, 07:32 PM
I did this in my last campaign, and will do it in my next. While 1 square (hex in my case) of difficult terrain in a wide open space where combatants are scattered about everywhere don't create much of an obstacle for anyone, they can become real obstacles if several die in close proximity or if the fight is in close quarters. Usually it doesn't have any significant impact on the encounter, but having corpses remain rather than going *poof* when someone dies introduces a small amount of reality into the game.

I use coins or such to represent corpses.

PS: I've heard that Greenwood still DMs FR as he did 20 (30?) years ago.

FoE
2010-03-20, 09:17 PM
I don't know if I'd count a square with a body in it as difficult terrain unless said corpse was big enough to fill the square.

John Campbell
2010-03-20, 09:41 PM
I've actually fought with bodies underfoot, and treating them as difficult terrain seems entirely reasonable to me. Even if they don't entirely fill the square... even a fairly small object unexpectedly turning up underfoot can trip you up, and you don't have attention to spare to be watching your footing all that carefully in a fight.

But, yeah, Balance/Tumble/Acrobatics/Reflex check of some sort to ignore the difficult terrain, with a DC that scales rapidly with size differential. Punting a dead rat out of the way - or crushing it underfoot - as you shift is easy enough, but making your way over the dead elephant without your movement being hampered is another story. Multiple corpses in the same square might bump their effective size up...

Hzurr
2010-03-22, 11:03 AM
I've actually fought with bodies underfoot,

:smalleek:


*back on topic*

I think if the creatures are small, they can be ignored; medium is difficult terrain, large is difficult terrain that requires an acrobatics check to get over (Easy DC). After that, make Huge an acrobatics check with a Moderate DC; gargantuan a Hard DC, and Collossal as a wall that you have to move around.