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View Full Version : [3.5] A rewrite of the Streamers spell



Myou
2010-03-20, 05:43 PM
I looked it up in Shining South, and I didn't really like how it worked mechanically - touch attacks for 5d10 damage each time the target acted - so I've rewritten the spell a little. Hopefully it's a little more balanced.

How is my rewrite? Any problems with it?

Streamers
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One or more streamers
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A number of glowing, etherial silk streamers shoot forth from your hand when you cast this spell. You may fire one streamer, plus one additional streamer for every three levels beyond 9th, to a maximum of four streamers at 18th level. Each streamer follows a creature of your selection for the duration of the spell; no more than one streamer may target any one creature. A streamer moves silently with the target creature, encircling it, floating in its space. Whenever the target attacks, casts a spell with somatic components, takes any move action, or any other action that requires significant physical movement, it risks touching the streamer, the creature must make a reflex save to avoid doing so. On every failed save the target takes 6d6 points of damage from the streamer. This damage increases to 6d8 at 12th level, to 6d10 at 15th level, and finally to 6d12 at 21st level.
Once the spell duration expires or the target moves out of range of the spell the streamer following the creature fades away and vanishes. Streamers cannot be harmed by attacks as they are an ongoing spell effect, and deliberately touching a streamer or striking it with a melee attack deals the streamer's normal damage without a save. Streamers have AC 5.

Material Component: A silk scarf worth 10gp.

Tehnar
2010-03-20, 05:55 PM
I would say that you risk being under damage from only one streamer at a time. Touching or being damaged by a streamer discharges that particular streamer. Otherwise the spell is too powerful for its level.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-20, 06:09 PM
I would say that you risk being under damage from only one streamer at a time. Touching or being damaged by a streamer discharges that particular streamer. Otherwise the spell is too powerful for its level.

I think this is what you're after, as IIRC it's one of the more often mentioned hose-anything blast spells that isn't Wings of Flurry or Maw of Chaos.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 06:11 PM
I looked it up in Shining South, and I didn't really like how it worked mechanically - touch attacks for 5d10 damage each time the target acted - so I've rewritten the spell a little. Hopefully it's a little more balanced.

How is my rewrite? Any problems with it?

Streamers
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One or more streamers
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A number of glowing, etherial silk streamers shoot forth from your hand when you cast this spell. You may fire one streamer, plus one additional streamer for every three levels beyond 9th, to a maximum of four streamers at 18th level. Each streamer follows a creature of your selection for the duration of the spell; multiple streamers may target the same creature. A streamer moves silently with the target creature, encircling it, floating in its space. Whenever the target attacks, casts a spell with somatic components, takes any move action, or any other action that requires significant physical movement, it risks touching the streamer, the creature must make a reflex save to avoid doing so. On every failed save the target takes 6d6 points of damage from the streamer. Once the spell duration expires or the target moves out of range of the spell the streamers following the creature fade away and vanish. Streamers cannot be harmed by attacks as they are an ongoing spell effect, and deliberately touching a streamer or striking it with a melee attack deals the streamer's normal damage without a save. Streamers have AC 5.

Material Component: A silk scarf worth 10gp.

Let us compare to the Cleric spell in PHB 2
Mark of Doom: (Cleric 3/Pally 2)
Dur: 1 rd/lv, 100 + 10/lv, Standard. No save/SR. Spell marks opponent- they take 1d6 damage each time they cast a spell that causes damage or disables, makes melee/ranged attack, or spell-like or supernatural abilities to harm others. Subject must be one alignment opposes on one axis.

Your spell is higher level and it has a save.
If you made it one target can harmed by a single streamer at one time I'd say it would be fine if a bit strong.

Myou
2010-03-20, 08:34 PM
I would say that you risk being under damage from only one streamer at a time. Touching or being damaged by a streamer discharges that particular streamer. Otherwise the spell is too powerful for its level.

Er, that would be really weak though, 6d6 damage with save and SR once for a 5th level slot. A fireball would do the same but in an area and with 9d6 - from a slot two levels lower. Maybe I misunderstood your suggestion?


Let us compare to the Cleric spell in PHB 2
Mark of Doom: (Cleric 3/Pally 2)
Dur: 1 rd/lv, 100 + 10/lv, Standard. No save/SR. Spell marks opponent- they take 1d6 damage each time they cast a spell that causes damage or disables, makes melee/ranged attack, or spell-like or supernatural abilities to harm others. Subject must be one alignment opposes on one axis.

Your spell is higher level and it has a save.
If you made it one target can harmed by a single streamer at one time I'd say it would be fine if a bit strong.

Well, two levels lower, not one. It doesn't allow SR either.

But you think that each streamer should have to target a different creature? It seems sort of weak that way.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 08:45 PM
Er, that would be really weak though, 6d6 damage with save and SR once for a 5th level slot. A fireball would do the same but in an area and with 9d6 - from a slot two levels lower. Maybe I misunderstood your suggestion?



Well, two levels lower, not one. It doesn't allow SR either.

But you think that each streamer should have to target a different creature? It seems sort of weak that way.

But don't the streamers hurt 1 rd/lv, so that adds up to potentially (assuming 1 Streamer) 60d6 if caster is 10 by 10 rds: assuming 5 rounds still 30d6 (if fail save each time).

If you can stack them: than that means in 5 rd, at caster 12, that is 60d6 if fail save) in 5 rds.

Myou
2010-03-20, 08:55 PM
But don't the streamers hurt 1 rd/lv, so that adds up to potentially (assuming 1 Streamer) 60d6 if caster is 10 by 10 rds: assuming 5 rounds still 30d6 (if fail save each time).

If you can stack them: than that means in 5 rd, at caster 12, that is 60d6 if fail save) in 5 rds.

That's a very good point. Just shows how broken the original is - it was 5d10 per streamer.

So, each streamer has to target a different foe. With that limitation it seems fair, but now I wonder about the damage - 6d6 on each failed save is quite a bit at level 9, but not much at level 18. Should the dice scale by level?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-20, 09:12 PM
Yeah, I could see that.

6d6 raises by 1 size to 6d8 at level 15 and every 3 levels thereafter
So at level 15, you deal 6d8 and Level 18 you deal 6d10 (21st level is 6d12 and lastly 6d20 at level 24).

Hmm, that makes it decent in Epic levels which is good.

Myou
2010-03-20, 09:24 PM
Yeah, I could see that.

6d6 raises by 1 size to 6d8 at level 15 and every 3 levels thereafter
So at level 15, you deal 6d8 and Level 18 you deal 6d10 (21st level is 6d12 and lastly 6d20 at level 24).

Hmm, that makes it decent in Epic levels which is good.

I was actually thinking about the numer of dice rather than the die size, but I suppose die size would work better. And it's a good natural cap, although I kind of think it should stop at the d12 - I don't think most level 5 spells advance that far, normally you have to use a higher spell level if you want the damage to keep scaling up.

Myou
2010-03-21, 09:26 AM
I'm thinking about two possibilities now:

A) The dice go from 6d6 (9th level, average 21 damage)to 6d8 (12th, 27), 6d10 (15th, 33), 6d12 (18th, 39), with 39 being the max average damage.

B) The dice progress by half caster level, round down, and so would start at 4d6 (9th level, average 14 damage), and would be 6d6 at 12th level (21), 7d6 at 15th (24.5) and 9d6 at 18th (31.5), and would max out at 20th level with 10d6, and a max average damage of 35.

A is a little more powerful, and also a little more interesting, but B is more regular and follows the more established patterns of other spells.

I think that I'll use A unless anyone objects. I've updated the OP.

herbe
2010-03-21, 11:11 AM
Look at Melf's acid arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidarrow.htm)(2nd level)
There are no save or spell resistance although a nice duration(1 round + 1 round per three levels). Maximum is 2d4 (avarage 5/round; at 18th lvl 30 damage altogether).
Cone of cold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/coneOfCold.htm) (5th level) has 1d6 damage/caster level to multiple target up to 15d6 damage(avarage 52) at 15th.

If only one target:
So this spell should a bit more damage with a duration of Melf's acid arrow:
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per two levels(11...17)(up to 5 at 17th)
Damage should be 4d6(up to 20d6 at 17th level with an 70 damage.

If more target:
No advance dice only 5d6 to all target if they moving or...

However nice work congrat

Myou
2010-03-21, 11:22 AM
Look at Melf's acid arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidarrow.htm)(2nd level)
There are no save or spell resistance although a nice duration(1 round + 1 round per three levels). Maximum is 2d4 (avarage 5/round; at 18th lvl 30 damage altogether).
Cone of cold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/coneOfCold.htm) (5th level) has 1d6 damage/caster level to multiple target up to 15d6 damage(avarage 52) at 15th.

If only one target:
So this spell should a bit more damage with a duration of Melf's acid arrow:
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per two levels(11...17)(up to 5 at 17th)
Damage should be 4d6(up to 20d6 at 17th level with an 70 damage.

If more target:
No advance dice only 5d6 to all target if they moving or...

However nice work congrat

Thanks. :3

I can't say I entirely agree with your analysis, since Cone of Cold is a very weak spell, especially for it's level, where as the original Streamers is commonly regarded as one of the best damage dealing spells. The closest analogue to Streamers is probably Scorching Ray - 4d6 damage as a level 2 spell, increasing every few levels to keep the damage high.

imperialspectre
2010-03-21, 11:24 AM
It's good work, Myou. I think there may be an unintended consequence of the switch from touch attacks to a Reflex save, though. Touch attacks can be resisted a couple ways - you can have good touch AC, as many martial combatants do, or you can have miss chances, as casters often do. Further, there were very few ways to boost the attack bonus for the streamers in the original version - the spell was, frankly, sub-optimal for anyone who wasn't using Divine Power and attack bonus auras.

By switching to Reflex saves, which can be demanded several times per round, you may actually make it harder to avoid the streamer attacks. Sure, we don't care if the wizard has a relatively poor Reflex save, but it's going to hit martial combatants that aren't rogues or swordsages pretty hard. Additionally, the caster doesn't have to do anything to make the Streamers strategy effective - boosting save DCs is pretty typical for casters in general, as is reducing enemies' save bonuses. This means that the caster has much lower of an opportunity cost to employ Streamers as a primary offensive strategy. This could actually make the spell better for the ToS crowd, although I'm not sure how it would affect game balance in a broader sense.

Myou
2010-03-21, 11:47 AM
It's good work, Myou. I think there may be an unintended consequence of the switch from touch attacks to a Reflex save, though. Touch attacks can be resisted a couple ways - you can have good touch AC, as many martial combatants do, or you can have miss chances, as casters often do. Further, there were very few ways to boost the attack bonus for the streamers in the original version - the spell was, frankly, sub-optimal for anyone who wasn't using Divine Power and attack bonus auras.

By switching to Reflex saves, which can be demanded several times per round, you may actually make it harder to avoid the streamer attacks. Sure, we don't care if the wizard has a relatively poor Reflex save, but it's going to hit martial combatants that aren't rogues or swordsages pretty hard. Additionally, the caster doesn't have to do anything to make the Streamers strategy effective - boosting save DCs is pretty typical for casters in general, as is reducing enemies' save bonuses. This means that the caster has much lower of an opportunity cost to employ Streamers as a primary offensive strategy. This could actually make the spell better for the ToS crowd, although I'm not sure how it would affect game balance in a broader sense.

Thanks, much apreciated. :3

And that's a very valid point you make, I'm not sure how to respond to the issue. My line of thinking was that in the general game most characters who might fail the reflex save would also be easily hit by touch attacks. My hope was that the significant damage reduction made up for it, when against those with better touch AC.