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unre9istered
2010-03-20, 06:31 PM
I thought I saw a reference to this in a book some where but now I can't find it. Anyone know where I saw it? I'm pretty sure it was 1/2 weight and game a penalty to spotting the items made out of it.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-20, 06:32 PM
It's in one of the Faerun books I think. Hope that helps

Eldariel
2010-03-20, 06:40 PM
Races of Faerun. It's 3.0 though; it's basically Adamantine + Mithril. Since Adamantine changed for 3.5, would make sense to adjust it for the new Adamantine too. Though I personally see no reason to allow it. Getting "best of all worlds" for some extra cash is too much of the "this is the ultimate piece of X and thus should always be used"-bs.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-20, 07:14 PM
Races of Faerun. It's 3.0 though; it's basically Adamantine + Mithril. Since Adamantine changed for 3.5, would make sense to adjust it for the new Adamantine too. Though I personally see no reason to allow it. Getting "best of all worlds" for some extra cash is too much of the "this is the ultimate piece of X and thus should always be used"-bs.

It's a mundane weapon, why nerf it when melee could use the love?

Eldariel
2010-03-20, 07:22 PM
It's a mundane weapon, why nerf it when melee could use the love?

Because it doesn't really help at all and just obsoletes few previously usable things for no gain whatsoever. Overall, it seems like a negative near-zerosum addition to the system. Melee isn't really gonna get any better with it, but there'll be even less versatility there. Besides, it's really best for armor anyways.

Splendor
2010-03-20, 10:32 PM
Glassteel- Races of Faerun (pg 158)
Armor is one category lighter, -10% spell failure, +2 Max Dex, -3 to ACP, ½ weight, -4 to spot item. Hardness 20, 40 HP per inch. Item made of glassteel are considered masterwork.
Light armor +9,000 gp, Medium armor +16,000 gp, Heavy armor +25,000 gp, Shield +4,000 gp, Weapon (d4 or d6) +1,500 gp/lb, Weapon (d8, d10, d12) +2,500 gp/lb, Other items +1,000 gp/lb.

Nephelium- Sunless Citadel adventure, Pg 32
Transparent Iron, add 100gp to the cost of weapons.

Older D&D editions had a spell called Glassee but I don’t know if they ever updated it anywhere. Something vaguely similar would be the spell Hardening. Lv 6 spell from Magic of Faerun that makes an object harder. You could ask your DM about researching a spell that would allow items to become transparent.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-21, 08:42 AM
Because it doesn't really help at all and just obsoletes few previously usable things for no gain whatsoever. Overall, it seems like a negative near-zerosum addition to the system. Melee isn't really gonna get any better with it, but there'll be even less versatility there. Besides, it's really best for armor anyways.
Gee, if you were talking about the revised glassteel I'd say you're spot on. The newer version has nearly identical properties to mithral (matching exactly in weight, ASF, MDB, and ACP), so there's hardly any reason for its existence. The older, more expensive version combines the qualities of adamantine and mithral for a unique effect, including nonmagical enhancement bonuses that are especially useful in an Antimagic Field. The nerf does nothing to improve the game.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-21, 09:11 AM
Gee, if you were talking about the revised glassteel I'd say you're spot on. The newer version has nearly identical properties to mithral (matching exactly in weight, ASF, MDB, and ACP), so there's hardly any reason for its existence. The older, more expensive version combines the qualities of adamantine and mithral for a unique effect, including nonmagical enhancement bonuses that are especially useful in an Antimagic Field. The nerf does nothing to improve the game.

Hey, that just means the converse to "fighter's can't have nice things" still holds true! Druids get the better toys with glass steel, even if it's not as good as it once was.:smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 09:27 AM
Gee, if you were talking about the revised glassteel I'd say you're spot on. The newer version has nearly identical properties to mithral (matching exactly in weight, ASF, MDB, and ACP), so there's hardly any reason for its existence. The older, more expensive version combines the qualities of adamantine and mithral for a unique effect, including nonmagical enhancement bonuses that are especially useful in an Antimagic Field. The nerf does nothing to improve the game.

How does that address any of the problems melee has? "Not having high enough To Hit/Damage" was never on that list.

jindra34
2010-03-21, 09:34 AM
How does that address any of the problems melee has? "Not having high enough To Hit/Damage" was never on that list.

Actually the issue with Melee is that they practically can't get enough damage. At higher levels spells simply and impressively out strip the damage of melee and casters get enough that theoretical conservation of slots stops mattering.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-21, 09:36 AM
How does that address any of the problems melee has?
Because glassteel is nonmagical, it gives them an edge against a caster in an Antimagic Field. That's a melee problem, and masterwork construction alone is a wholly inadequate solution.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 09:41 AM
Actually the issue with Melee is that they practically can't get enough damage. At higher levels spells simply and impressively out strip the damage of melee and casters get enough that theoretical conservation of slots stops mattering.

...really, I always thought the problem with melee was that all they could do was deal damage; their mobility, ability to answer any of the billion block-type effects, ability to gain relevant data for actually getting anywhere, ability to relevantly disrupt a guy with heavy duty protections on and ability to efficiently act without magic items are pretty crappy.

When your generic charger or archer or TWFer can deal more damage in a full attack than basically any anywhere-near-CR-appropriate creature has HP, I find it hard to buy the damage is the issue. If they dealt more, what would that help again? I don't buy making a material that obsoletes Adamantine and Mithril somehow makes the game inherently better or suddenly makes martial types capable of hanging with the big boys.


Because glassteel is nonmagical, it gives them an edge against a caster in an Antimagic Field. That's a melee problem, and masterwork construction alone is a wholly inadequate solution.

What kinds of issues does this solve for a melee type in an AMF? What kind of caster can they now beat there that they couldn't previously?

jindra34
2010-03-21, 09:53 AM
...really, I always thought the problem with melee was that all they could do was deal damage; their mobility, ability to answer any of the billion block-type effects, ability to gain relevant data for actually getting anywhere, ability to relevantly disrupt a guy with heavy duty protections on and ability to efficiently act without magic items are pretty crappy.

When your generic charger or archer or TWFer can deal more damage in a full attack than basically any anywhere-near-CR-appropriate creature has HP, I find it hard to buy the damage is the issue. If they dealt more, what would that help again? I don't buy making a material that obsoletes Adamantine and Mithril somehow makes the game inherently better or suddenly makes martial types capable of hanging with the big boys.



1. The one man machine gun archer is not melee.
2. The TWFer is taking enough penalties to where while it may be theoretically possible for him to kill something in one round with a full attack he likely won't get the requisite hits on anything appropriate.
3. Those require full attacks which are very telegraphic and easily avoidable, thus limiting damage capability.
4. By that point in wealth by level guidelines a spellcaster can kill anything with similar reliability as a standard action.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 10:07 AM
1. The one man machine gun archer is not melee.

So? It's martial.


2. The TWFer is taking enough penalties to where while it may be theoretically possible for him to kill something in one round with a full attack he likely won't get the requisite hits on anything appropriate.

Point being, TWFer can still, with enough work (sufficient amounts of precision damage), deal enough damage to kill anything that needs killing in one turn.


3. Those require full attacks which are very telegraphic and easily avoidable, thus limiting damage capability.

So why not work on that instead of giving few minor bonuses to martial types? Besides, it's already eminently doable to gain full attacks after movement between Pounce, Travel Devotion and various items, but I agree that it should be easier.


4. By that point in wealth by level guidelines a spellcaster can kill anything with similar reliability as a standard action.

So how does a warrior getting more damage solve anything again, then?

jindra34
2010-03-21, 10:19 AM
So? It's martial.

We are discussing (and your initial statement was about) melee not martial.


Point being, TWFer can still, with enough work (sufficient amounts of precision damage), deal enough damage to kill anything that needs killing in one turn.

And how many common enemies are immune to precision damage. And how reliably can the TWFer dish it out.


So why not work on that instead of giving few minor bonuses to martial types? Besides, it's already eminently doable to gain full attacks after movement between Pounce, Travel Devotion and various items, but I agree that it should be easier.

True but they still need the ability to be a threat on that full attack, and a full attack lacks the reliability of spells.


So how does a warrior getting more damage solve anything again, then?
Because at higher levels the game tends to become essentially a quick draw, and without significant damage output (which melee cannot promise) melee has no bullets to fire. Its not a full solution to increase melee output but it is a required part of the solution.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 10:28 AM
Because at higher levels the game tends to become essentially a quick draw, and without significant damage output (which melee cannot promise) melee has no bullets to fire. Its not a full solution to increase melee output but it is a required part of the solution.

And this particular material only offers you any benefit whatsoever in anti-magic field. Further, you can acquire sufficient damage output to be a threat with work.

What you can't acquire is everything else you're missing like reliable means of delivering said damage or penetrating various magical effects and defenses or screwing the action economy or answering Contingencies or such.


Frankly, I disagree with you on "necessity" here. If you want more damage, you can get more damage. The tools exist in this game for immense damage output. Any Fighter or Barbarian built for damage will have sufficient damage output on levels where this material would come into play that their weakness won't be about that.

The tools don't exist for solutions to any others of the problems. Sure, it'd be nice if martials dealt enough damage without having to optimize them, but that's pretty much what ToB does; makes dealing large amounts of damage easy enough that you needn't bother optimizing that aspect.


Even with ToB though, the other problems remain. They're somewhat alleviated, particularly the mobility- and defense- ones, and some of the versatility of offense, but fact is that ToB types still play the same game martial types have always played while casters shift to the rocket launcher tag where nobody else gets to play. You could make a martial type have an attack bonus of +10^600 and deal 1.5*10^601 points of damage and it still wouldn't solve the fundamental issues.

jindra34
2010-03-21, 10:34 AM
And this particular material only offers you any benefit whatsoever in anti-magic field. Further, you can acquire sufficient damage output to be a threat with work.

What you can't acquire is everything else you're missing like reliable means of delivering said damage or penetrating various magical effects and defenses or screwing the action economy or answering Contingencies or such.


Frankly, I disagree with you on "necessity" here. If you want more damage, you can get more damage. The tools exist in this game for immense damage output. Any Fighter or Barbarian built for damage will have sufficient damage output on levels where this material would come into play that their weakness won't be about that.

The tools don't exist for solutions to any others of the problems. Sure, it'd be nice if martials dealt enough damage without having to optimize them, but that's pretty much what ToB does; makes dealing large amounts of damage easy enough that you needn't bother optimizing that aspect.


Even with ToB though, the other problems remain. They're somewhat alleviated, particularly the mobility- and defense- ones, and some of the versatility of offense, but fact is that ToB types still play the same game martial types have always played while casters shift to the rocket launcher tag where nobody else gets to play. You could make a martial type have an attack bonus of +10^600 and deal 1.5*10^601 points of damage and it still wouldn't solve the fundamental issues.
So we both came to the same conclusion at the same point. And I agree that ToB is the end result of that logic. But for play balance everyone of similar optimization should be able to stand on roughly the same playing field, which 3.5 for the most part does not offer. The solutions are must involve raising melee up to be a comparble threat at high levels to casters, or lowering and stabilizing casters to be more on par with melee. And the first is relatively boring as it is a quick draw. The second is much harder to pull off, and thus most people simply advocate the easy solution.

sofawall
2010-03-21, 11:28 AM
...really, I always thought the problem with melee was that all they could do was deal damage; <other true things>

Most of the optimization community agrees with you. Also, this is the main reason Direct Damage spells are considered sub-optimal. You have someone nearby who can do more damage than you, why do you need damage? It creates a redundancy.

Damage is not bad. Damage is good. Redundant damage and hard to deliver damage are bad.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-21, 12:15 PM
What kinds of issues does this solve for a melee type in an AMF? What kind of caster can they now beat there that they couldn't previously?
I get the impression you feel this needs to allow one-hit kills to be allowed to exist. What's up with that? Melee characters get to do what they're good at better when they have magic weapons. Antimagic Field reduces their capabilities, and glassteel (Races of Faerūn version) compensates for some of that.

It's a matter of statistics. If your melee character can hit the caster just a bit more often, or reduce the caster to negative HP just a bit faster, they've got a better chance of surviving.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 12:45 PM
I get the impression you feel this needs to allow one-hit kills to be allowed to exist. What's up with that? Melee characters get to do what they're good at better when they have magic weapons. Antimagic Field reduces their capabilities, and glassteel (Races of Faerūn version) compensates for some of that.

It's a matter of statistics. If your melee character can hit the caster just a bit more often, or reduce the caster to negative HP just a bit faster, they've got a better chance of surviving.

Ok, now the issue here is that if a melee type attacks a caster type without tools to counteract AMF in one, he should be able to kill said caster no problem in one-two full attacks; remove casters' magical protections and take a high-level melee type and it's really just Battle Jump > Shock/Leap kill or lockdown kill or few hundred point full attack kill or whatever. I don't think one-hit kills should be enabled by Glass steel, I know they exist and are completely doable without it.

He shouldn't need those +2 to kill the caster in an AMF because the caster who has not prepared for AMF is so utterly screwed in one that there's really no trouble with killing him, and your problem against a caster prepared for AMF is landing the hits in the first place, not due to AC or HP but due to miss chance, contingencies and immediate actions.


There can be some incredibly fringe build against which +2 enhancement bonus in an AMF would actually be helpful, but I can't even think of one right now.

On the flipside, you just generated material that single-handedly obsoletes Adamantine, Mithril and every material balanced with those (Blue Ice, Abyssal Bloodiron, etc.). It's like Oerthblood; it's just a higher tier of materials and as such, you either get it or save until you can get it as it's just plain better than the magical materials.

Imho having mythic materials and then even more mythic materials and then even more mythic materials really bites into both, the verisimilitude of the world and the mythicness of said materials. For such a miniscule gain, adding Glass steel to the game seems to me like an overall negative enhancement.


Sure, craftsmanship of your weapon doesn't matter enough in D&D as it stands; Mw. is too little a benefit and too bipolar a system. And arguably, exotic materials could afford to be stronger. But this is not the way to go about fixing that. Want greater mundane benefits in items? Write up tiers of craftsmanship! Want stronger exotic materials? Rewrite the standards to give greater bonuses!

Adding Glass steel doesn't really address these issues nor any warrior power issues. The number of scenarios where your To Hit is too low to hit a caster in an AMF on a level where you could afford Glass steel is just...so low it's really not even worth noting. Frankly, want Glass steel? Switch to 3.0 Adamantine; it's pretty much the same. And do away with the stupid Light Weapon-screwing line and give all weapons +2 enhancement instead.