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Noedig
2010-03-20, 08:10 PM
Faerun Campaign setting.

So the players I'm GMing just succeeded in helping a dwarven heir secure his long bereft crown. This will severely upset the balance of power in the region around, notably with a drow house who've held a majority of the power for 6 or 7 centuries. Both the players and myself expect full scale war to break out soon as a result of their actions.

The nature of the area is a couple of miles under a large mountain. The Underdark is accessible from several areas, and there are other drow houses down there.

My question is, how do you wage a war that is exclusively underground?

Innis Cabal
2010-03-20, 08:11 PM
Fires become more dangerous. People who can colapse tunnels more so.

Noedig
2010-03-20, 08:25 PM
Not a whole lot to burn underground but i can see how smoke with no ventilation could be very hazardous. Collapseing tunnels is good but I think I'd only use that as a defensive measure or a last resort. If I feel particularily evil, Ill probably collapse all the exit tunnels to a dwarven or drow outpost, leaving them to starve or something.

Parra
2010-03-20, 09:04 PM
well traditionally Dwarves are fair superior to drow (excluding slaves they may have) in terms of tunnel making ability. I actually think the dwarves would use tunnel collapse as more than a defensive measure as they can simply make a new tunnel relativly quickly.

Flooding works quite well underground too.

Alchemist fire projectors (aka flame-throwers) would also be handy in tunnel fighting I would have thought.

In terms of magic there are the Stoneshape, Meld with stone, Passwall type of ambushes. Hallucinatory(sp?) Terrain could mask Casams and the like

the humanity
2010-03-20, 11:44 PM
spells that move rock combined with one crazy with wet wood and alchemists fire makes for one killer torture chamber.

the PC's will hate that trick if you pull it on them. have them smash through a rock for a huge wall of smoke and a half dead, coughing army could be kinda cool if you want the PCs to lead people into battle.

Frosty
2010-03-21, 01:19 AM
Whomever makes friends with the Kobolds wins.

Noedig
2010-03-21, 10:26 AM
Ok how about this for a tactic.

The drow collapse one end of a tunnel, fill it with really nasty spiders or driders and such, then collapse the other end. The PC's for whatever reason need to use that tunnel to get from point A to B, and they open up an end, releasing the nastiness on the other side.

I like the flooding idea, but some of the tunnels would require a retarded cubic footage of water, not to mention the very likely possibility of drain points. If one could divert an underground river into a tunnel that would be the most feasible way of flooding.

Alch Fire is good, and its easy to produce in mass quantities, so i will definitely be using it and encouraging its use.

Im also thinking some humanoid wave tactics on the part of the drow, what with all their slaves.

What are some of the things that drow clerics do? Summon demons?

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-21, 11:04 AM
well traditionally Dwarves are fair superior to all elves

oh hai I fixed this 4 u! ^_^

evil-frosty
2010-03-21, 11:15 AM
Choke points are also going to be important.

For more ideas you can read the Siege of Darkness Trilogy by R.A Salvatore all it is, is Menzoberranzan attacking Mithril Hall. Quick warning bout the books though for me at least this is when he went downhill.

Lysander
2010-03-21, 11:19 AM
Summoning earth elementals, or anything with the earth glide ability becomes even more useful. Demons with at will teleport would also be able to move around with ease.

Walls of force and other magical barriers become more powerful since if one blocks a passage there might not be another way around it.

Ambushes and choke points become a bigger part of tactics. There might be hidden traps buried in the soil and rock specifically designed to harm enemy tunnelers. I wouldn't be surprised for dwarves to dig tunnels, install booby traps, and then bury the whole thing up again.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-21, 11:20 AM
Expect the heavy hitters to be things that burrow.

Earth Elementals become Stealth Ambushers, and any side with magical force should have no qualms collapsing a tunnel then digging it back out.

A Lyre of Building (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#lyreofBuilding) can be a devastating weapon in these types of encounters. For example: Dwarven sappers break through an side tunnel, into elven space. They charge in, prepared to batter down a weaker rear fortification, to reach the Drow leadership.

One strum later, and the Drow have a half hour to muster up reinforcements.

Or the dwarves build a sturdy fortification, able to withstand many assaults, but they're sorely pressed with numerous assaults. In the middle of a kobold suicide raid, a drow strike force is detected using them as cover, presumably to assault the dwarven vanguard. The tunnels are collapsed, wiping out the encroaching force. Over the course of the next two hours, the entire fortification is rebuilt.

Noedig
2010-03-21, 12:16 PM
i suppose the only issue with the lyre is determining how much 100 humans can accomplish in 3 days.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 03:43 PM
oh hai I fixed this 4 u! ^_^

I beg to differ. By default, dwarves are fighters while elves are wizards. There seems to be a 4 tier gap there...and not in your favor.

To OP: think about chokepoints. Since drow tend to use spider-mounts and rely on agility, dwarves would have the advantage in close quarters fighting, especially with winding tunnels to reduce fireball range. Dwarves should build tunnels that are only 5 feet across, and use dwarven defenders as gates. As a side effect, dwarves have the advantage defensively, but offensively they run into trouble when moving into the large caverns.

Also, consider using delvers or other obscure monsters with natural tunneling abilities.

JohnnyCancer
2010-03-21, 03:58 PM
Oozes, rust monsters, xorn, and earth elementals probably come into play a lot.

urbanpirate
2010-03-21, 05:10 PM
floods
gas and fog spells
burn poisonous things in confined spaces and fight from below
mirrors that light up the caverns with sunlight would wreck a drow army's day before they knew what hit em
colapsing tunnels
ankheg, umberhulk minions ect.
illusions cast over pits are extra nast in narrow halls

AslanCross
2010-03-21, 05:27 PM
Three words: Gelatinous cube walls.

Or if you want an extremely bizarre form of cavalry, Gelatinous cube cavalry.

Armies are going to rely a lot less on formations and a lot more on ambushing and flanking maneuvers. It doesn't matter how tough you are when your enemy can assault you from multiple directions.

Some words of advice: Planning any battle, even fantasy battles, can be made a lot more purposeful if one uses Sun Tzu's five factors:
1. The Moral Law
How much are the soldiers willing to fight for their commander? This can mean the difference between a fanatic fight to the death or a mutiny. Given the nature of Dwarves, I expect them to fight to the death. As for Drow, they can swing any which way. You might want to establish how loyal they really are.

2. Heaven
Time, day and night, cold and heat: factors beyond mortal control. Since underground there isn't much in the way of light, you COULD have cold and heat if there are sporadic lava flows or even magical currents; the Underdark is a strange place.

3. Earth
Terrain, space, safety and danger: factors that can be manipulated by mortals. Walls are understandably mostly useless unless you're in a cavern that's big enough to have a city in it. Then again the enemy can just tunnel from above or even use wall-climbing spiders to drop feather-falling shock troops on you.

Due to the lack of walls and limited space, siege weapons are pretty much useless.

4. The Commander
The army inherits the commander's methods. If the commander is incompetent, the army can get routed no matter how skilled it is. Is the commander a cleric (with the authority of Lolth and therefore a stranglehold on obedience) or a wizard (with probably less authority, likely being male, but likely having a brilliant head for tactics)?

5. Method and Discipline.
How are the logistics on both sides? Are they fighting far away from home? How well-equipped are they? How's their training?
We all know dwarves are great fighters and are extremely stubborn. However, you could have a lot of them be young and relatively inexperienced.
The Drow are also excellent combatants, and their natural talents make them harder to deal with in an environment suited to their abilities. They also have pretty much no sense of honor and are notorious for poison use.

Both races are also known for craftsmanship; however, the Drow are known for magical gear and Drowcraft weapons and armor, so they might have an edge.

These are only a few considerations, but I think they're pretty comprehensive.

Noedig
2010-03-21, 09:52 PM
great suggestions so far. I cant remember for sure, but is there a dwarven god of the earth? or at least a member in the pantheon with the earth domain?

Stompy
2010-03-21, 10:46 PM
-Note that Drow (although there should be way more many slaves than them in the army) do have the darkness spell 1/day. Give them the Ebon Eyes spell, or any other way to see in the darkness spell, and combats can get a lot more hexing for anyone involved.

-Due to the underground locale, one wall of force could potentially seal the escape of an army (on either side) :smalleek:.

-Also due note that the war is not just fought on the battlefield. For the drow, think about spies and infiltration, and see if you can't poison a city's water supply, burn down a needed supply tent in a camp, or simply gather intel about troop movements and the like. A hat of disguise is relatively cheap (in adventurer terms) :smallsmile:.

Fendalus
2010-03-22, 01:28 AM
Drow using poison would not be as effective as it normally would, due to the Dwarven racial +2 con and +2 on saves vs. poison, not to mention a higher chance of taking a class with a good fort save. Oddly enough, Drow have no such protection to poison, despite using it extensively...

Paying a local group of Kobolds to mine for you would be a good idea, based off the mining rules in RotD. They mine as medium creatures, but can fill a space as small creatures. As a rough comparison, a level 1 Dwarven mining team's average result would be a 21 (4 skill + 2 Aid another + 2 Skill focus + 1 Wis + 2 MW item) for a pair of 5ft cubes per day per team, while the average result for Kobolds would be a 27 (4 skill + 6 Aid another + 2 Skill focus + 1 Wis + 2 MW item + 2 racial) for 3 5ft cubes per day per team, with a larger margin for error and higher potential result. Oddly enough again, Dwarves have no racial bonus to Profession(Miner) checks.

Area of Effect spells would be both deadlier and easier to avoid. The tight space would force targets closer together, while the very rough terrain would block Line of Effect in most cases. This would make battlefield control spells even nastier than normal, as they would prevent them from spreading out to escape the other Area effects.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-22, 01:31 AM
i'd go check out Heroes of Battle (for DMing a small group inside of a large battleground) and Dungeonscape (for underground stuff)

Noedig
2010-03-22, 09:22 AM
Ive perused Heroes of Battle and noticed an interesting little piece of technology called blast disks, or something similar. I'm AFB so I dont recall if they are exclusive to any one campaign setting, but regardless, they look to have some serious potential for a battlefield that restricts movement to a general direction.

What are the reqs and ingredients for Alch Fire? I cannot remember for the life of me and I'm AFB.

Ill have to review the mineral wealth of area, as it is possible that there are old mines that could be considered as objectives.

I may have to send my party topside to either secure above ground trade routes or on diplomatic missions, as drow do make an occasional foray to the surface.

Any ideas for a monster thats reasonably dangerous and possibly capable of domestication or training that can burrow? Umber hulk maybe?

Is there a way to make a gas aoe permanent, like cloudkill or some kind of fog?

Also I seem to remember a piece of Salvatore's fiction that involves drow riding lizard mounts. Do these creatures exist? Or should I go with giant riding spiders, which are admittedly more terrifying.

Noedig
2010-03-22, 01:25 PM
Kind of a mixed blessing, but one of my players canceled for tonight so I have more time to work on this war.

Fendalus
2010-03-22, 02:26 PM
What are the reqs and ingredients for Alch Fire? I cannot remember for the life of me and I'm AFB.

I am unaware of any specific ingredients, but I do know that the value of the materials follows the normal crafting materials cost.



Any ideas for a monster thats reasonably dangerous and possibly capable of domestication or training that can burrow? Umber hulk maybe?

An Ankheg would be good, if you can train it. Other than Purple worms, I can't think of anything useful with a burrow speed.



Is there a way to make a gas aoe permanent, like cloudkill or some kind of fog?

You could make a magic trap of them, or you could cast permanency on Solid fog or Stinking cloud (For 2000 EXP and 1500 EXP, respectively)



Also I seem to remember a piece of Salvatore's fiction that involves drow riding lizard mounts. Do these creatures exist? Or should I go with giant riding spiders, which are admittedly more terrifying.

Those have stats in the FRCS if I remember correctly, but outside of that setting drow can ride anything. Giant spiders would make sense.

Asheram
2010-03-23, 05:15 AM
Choke points are also going to be important.

For more ideas you can read the Siege of Darkness Trilogy by R.A Salvatore all it is, is Menzoberranzan attacking Mithril Hall. Quick warning bout the books though for me at least this is when he went downhill.

Since we're already talking about R.A. Salvatore ;)

Tunnel's too tight,
Tunnel's too low,
Better run goblin,
'Cause here we go!

Every bump's a goblins head,
Pools of blood from the goblin dead.
Run, good dwarves, push that toy,
Squish the little goblin boys!


Imagine a giant steamroller, just small enough to fit inside a tunnle with rounded cornerers. Now, imagine a team of dwarves standing behind it, pushing it forward at running speed.
This is The Juicer. A wonderful little dwarven contraption. For an extra hazard, mount an anti-magic field on top / inside of it.

Optimystik
2010-03-23, 06:38 AM
I beg to differ. By default, dwarves are fighters while elves are wizards. There seems to be a 4 tier gap there...and not in your favor.

Ironically, Dwarves make better wizards. Being graceful doesn't mean jack when you're blowing all your Concentration checks. :smallwink: