Dex/hp Damage can have a duration?

[Starbuck_II]

I've always thought Shivering touch was damage so can't have a duration.
But there was a precedent: Power Word Maladriot (Sorc/Wiz 3) in Races of the Dragon also deals damage with a duration.
It even says in the text the damage lasts that long.

So Shivering touch's damage lasts only so long (it isn't a penalty), but temporary damage to the ability score. Same as Maladriot is temp damage to hp score.

[Sinfire Titan]

RotD was printed after Frostburn. The precedent is actually reversed, and the exception is still PW:M. Since Shivering Touch doesn't have that line, we can't assume that PW:M is what it is supposed to be like.

[Yuki Akuma]

Saying that the Dex damage of Shivering Touch only lasts one round per level is a fine house rule.

But that's not how the spell works as written.

I wish people would stop trying to convince everyone that their house rule isn't a house rule. What's wrong with house rules?

[ScionoftheVoid]

I've always thought Shivering touch was damage so can't have a duration.
But there was a precedent: Power Word Maladriot (Sorc/Wiz 3) in Races of the Dragon also deals damage with a duration.
It even says in the text the damage lasts that long.

So Shivering touch's damage lasts only so long (it isn't a penalty), but temporary damage to the ability score. Same as Maladriot is temp damage to hp score.

Spells which deal damage of any sort are not supposed to be anything other than instantaneous, AFAIK. Wall of Fire and similar create an effect which deals damage, so they may get a pass. I have not looked anything up before posting this (it wouldn't take long but I'm tired) so any incorrect statements I make I apologise for. I'd like to see how this goes too really, but if another spell explicitly has a duration to the damage then Shivering Touch may not (I'd have said probably wouldn't have a duration to the damage were it not for the shoddy editing to do with all instances of Shivering Touch, e.g. its unexplained duration and a monster entry listing a save DC for it despite it not allowing a save).

[Yuki Akuma]

Power Word: Maladroit lists the duration specifically in the spell description, rather than at the top under "Duration".

Shivering Touch doesn't say anything about a duration in the spell description, even though most spells at least give it a passing mention if what happens when the duration expires isn't completely obvious.

As spells that deal damage don't have durations and there's no default rule for them to fall back on, the duration doesn't actually measure anything in particular.

[DragoonWraith]

To expand on what Yuki was saying, the duration on Shivering Touch could easily be interpreted as dealing that much damage per round until the duration expires. Or that the charge for touching lasts that long, and you may touch as many targets and you like and they all take that much damage. Or maybe only the first, but if you touch no one in that time the charge disappears (which is not, I believe, how touch attacks normally work; usually you can cast them and hold the charge indefinitely, but simply can't use that hand or it dissipates).

In other words, it's completely unclear and impossible to adjudicate without making a house rule.

[Devils_Advocate]

Isn't the normal assumption that when a spell's duration ends, so does the spell's effect? Why would this be any less true of shivering touch than, say, charm person?

[Koury]

Isn't the normal assumption that when a spell's duration ends, so does the spell's effect? Why would this be any less true of shivering touch than, say, charm person?

Yeah, just like Melf's Acid Arrow. You know, how the damage goes away after the effect ends.

Oh wait.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Isn't the normal assumption that when a spell's duration ends, so does the spell's effect? Why would this be any less true of shivering touch than, say, charm person?

The general rules on ability damage say that it recovers at a certain rate. As Shivering Touch doesn't actually describe how it's "Duration: 1 round/level" we can't assume that it's referring to the damage. It makes it unlikely that it's referring to the damage, due to the above mentioned Power Word and the general rules on ability damage, leaving us with the options that DW put forth.

EDIT: Ninjas. This is why you use shivering touch. So they don't go first.

[2xMachina]

It was never asked in Cust Serv?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It was never asked in Cust Serv?

Good joke. Customer Service probably would have given all the answers that have been guessed in this thread.

[Devils_Advocate]

Hmmm. Allow me to lay out my position in more detail.


Since Shivering Touch doesn't have that line, we can't assume that PW:M is what it is supposed to be like.
Sure we can. There is a possibility that we'll be wrong, but we can assume it. :smalltongue:


Saying that the Dex damage of Shivering Touch only lasts one round per level is a fine house rule.

But that's not how the spell works as written.
This is what I'm not understanding. Isn't that exactly how the spell works as written? :smallconfused:


spells that deal damage don't have durations
This one does. :smalltongue:


there's no default rule for them to fall back on
I thought that the default rule was "When the duration expires, the spell effect ends".


To expand on what Yuki was saying, the duration on Shivering Touch could easily be interpreted as dealing that much damage per round until the duration expires.
Well, one could say that anything means anything, but the damage isn't stated to be per round, the duration is. What you're saying is like arguing that aid grants more temporary hit points each round: There simply is no basis that I can see for such a claim.


Or that the charge for touching lasts that long, and you may touch as many targets and you like and they all take that much damage.
The target is "Creature touched", singular.


Or maybe only the first, but if you touch no one in that time the charge disappears (which is not, I believe, how touch attacks normally work; usually you can cast them and hold the charge indefinitely, but simply can't use that hand or it dissipates).
Normally, the charge for a touch spell can be held indefinitely, and the spell's duration is the duration of the actual spell effect after the spell has been discharged. I'm still not seeing an indication that this spell works differently.


In other words, it's completely unclear and impossible to adjudicate without making a house rule.
How is it unclear? So far, I'm just seeing a bunch of unsupported claims that the spell description can be taken to mean other than what it, so far as I can see, plainly says.


Yeah, just like Melf's Acid Arrow. You know, how the damage goes away after the effect ends.
Melf's acid arrow stops dealing 2d4 points of acid damage per round when its duration is up. That's its ongoing effect. The ongoing effect of shivering touch is the target's Dexterity score being lower.

It looks like the actual reason that people have a problem with the spell functioning as written is that a temporary ability score debuff is usually a "penalty" instead of "damage". While that's interesting, I'm still not seeing how going against convention here is supposed to change the spell's duration from what's listed. Is there an actual rule somewhere that damage never has a duration?


The general rules on ability damage say that it recovers at a certain rate.
Specific trumps general. Hit points naturally recover at a certain rate, but that doesn't stop cure spells from working as written.


As Shivering Touch doesn't actually describe how it's "Duration: 1 round/level" we can't assume that it's referring to the damage.
Yes, we can assume that. And there's a basis for that assumption: The damage is the spell's only effect. What else would it be referring to?


It makes it unlikely that it's referring to the damage, due to the above mentioned Power Word
Power word maladroit describes the duration in the spell description because the specific effect and duration depend on the target's hit point total, not because there's a rule that "If you give damage from a spell a duration, then you have to state that in the text, or it totally doesn't count, dude". Although if that rule exists somewhere I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Damage dealt by a spell doesn't go away when the spell ends. Power Word: Maladroit is a specific exception, spelled out in the spell description.

Shivering Touch does not include this specific exception, so it doesn't work like that.

Temporary HP, on the other hand, explicitly goes away if the effect that grants it ends. Says so right there in the rules. Damage? Damage says nothing about going away after the effect that dealt it ends.

Specific trumps general, yes. But when it's not specific? The general rule applies! This should be blindingly obvious.

Shivering Touch is a badly written spell.

[Emmerask]

Hm I always thought the duration meant you can hold the charge for x rounds ^^

[Starbuck_II]

Hm I always thought the duration meant you can hold the charge for x rounds ^^

No, Duration of touch spells can always be charged for X rounds. It is an innate ability of touch spells.
So duration must have another meaning: I think both shivering touch and PWM have duration because they go away. PWM says this is true for it.
So we are debating if Shivering touch is as well.

[Sliver]

Hm I always thought the duration meant you can hold the charge for x rounds ^^

I always thought the duration meant they just forgot what the hell they were doing mid-way through writing the spell..

[Devils_Advocate]

Damage dealt by a spell doesn't go away when the spell ends.
What's your basis for this claim? I'm well aware that it's true in many cases, but where is this given as a general rule?

Looking at the actual rules on the subject, I find that the SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) "If the spell affects creatures directly the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration".


Damage says nothing about going away after the effect that dealt it ends.

Specific trumps general, yes. But when it's not specific? The general rule applies! This should be blindingly obvious.
Is there anything saying that damage doesn't go away after the effect that dealt it ends? Because if there isn't, then it seems that there isn't actually a general written rule to that effect; it's the way that things normally work, but that's not the same as having a rule say that things work that way. In that case, it seems that the relevant general rule is, again, "When the duration expires, the spell's effect ends".

Damage normally doesn't go away when a spell ends because damage-dealing spells are normally Instantaneous or non-targeted. But, hey, shivering touch is a non-Instantaneous, targeted spell, so it looks like it doesn't work like that. Not because it's an exception to the rule, but because there is no official rule that damage doesn't go away. That "rule" is just a generalization about how spells usually work, meaning that a spell can not work that way without violating the RAW. So shivering touch doesn't need a special clause to override how damage-dealing spells usually work, because there's no special written rule that makes them all work that way. Them working that way is just the upshot of the normal rules for spell duration and aiming.

So far as I know. Again, if there is actually an official rule that spell damage generally does not go away, I'd like to know where it is. But so far, it looks like you're arguing that a black swan can't really be black on the basis that swans are white, metaphorically speaking.

Addendum: Rules lawyering is Serious Business! :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

Isn't the normal assumption that when a spell's duration ends, so does the spell's effect? Why would this be any less true of shivering touch than, say, charm person?

Because with that assumption, every damage spell would become nearly worthless. Say, wall of fire....people walk through it, they get burned. Spell duration ends aaaand they suddenly get healed?

It not only lacks rules to support this, it doesn't make any sense.

[absolmorph]

What's your basis for this claim? I'm well aware that it's true in many cases, but where is this given as a general rule?

Looking at the actual rules on the subject, I find that the SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) "If the spell affects creatures directly the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration".

Fireball.
Duration? Instantaneous. That doesn't mean you become any less burned because the duration is up.

[Devils_Advocate]

Melf's acid arrow and wall of fire are non-targeted spells. They create effects that in turn do damage. When the spells end, their effects end, but the damage remains, because it wasn't the direct effects of these spells, but the effects of their effects.

Inflict light wounds is an Instantaneous spell. It magically produces a non-magical effect that lasts until somehow reversed. Because that's how Instantaneous spells work.

Not that I can find an actual rule stating that Instantaneous spells work like that. So it looks like the most RAWtarded interpretation might well be that Instantaneous spells don't actually do anything. This sort of illustrates the value of reading the rules with common sense -- which of course entails accepting that shivering touch lasts for its duration, since that's what a duration frickin' is.

Fireball is both non-targeted and Instantaneous.

Shivering touch does (not even hit point, but Dexterity) damage directly as a magical effect. It's a non-Instantaneous, targeted damage-dealing spell. It doesn't work like an Instantaneous and/or non-targeted spell because that's what damage-dealing spells normally are. It works like a non-Instantaneous, targeted spell because that's what it is. The rules tell us how such a spell works. I see no ambiguity in the RAW, here.

[Optimystik]

I don't get the continual hang-up about this. Ability Damage is always temporary - Shivering Touch just happens to be more temporary than most.

Unless you guys are thinking of Drain?

[Kurald Galain]

Wait... a touch spell generally gives you an aura around your hand, and an attack to touch someone with; then if you miss that touch, you can try again with your regular attacks for the duration of that spell. Most touch spells are discharged after one successful touch, a few of them explicitly let you make as many touches as you want for the duration of that spell. Isn't that what ST's duration means?

[absolmorph]

Melf's acid arrow and wall of fire are non-targeted spells. They create effects that in turn do damage. When the spells end, their effects end, but the damage remains, because it wasn't the direct effects of these spells, but the effects of their effects.

Inflict light wounds is an Instantaneous spell. It magically produces a non-magical effect that lasts until somehow reversed. Because that's how Instantaneous spells work.

Not that I can find an actual rule stating that Instantaneous spells work like that. So it looks like the most RAWtarded interpretation might well be that Instantaneous spells don't actually do anything. This sort of illustrates the value of reading the rules with common sense -- which of course entails accepting that shivering touch lasts for its duration, since that's what a duration frickin' is.

Fireball is both non-targeted and Instantaneous.

Shivering touch does (not even hit point, but Dexterity) damage directly as a magical effect. It's a non-Instantaneous, targeted damage-dealing spell. It doesn't work like an Instantaneous and/or non-targeted spell because that's what damage-dealing spells normally are. It works like a non-Instantaneous, targeted spell because that's what it is. The rules tell us how such a spell works. I see no ambiguity in the RAW, here.
The ambiguity is in the SPELL. Because most damage-dealing spells keep their damage around long after the duration is up. Shivering Touch has a duration, but doesn't say what disappears when the duration is up. It can be interpreted, RAW, as dealing the damage each round, or as you can make a touch attack for the spell's effect for that many rounds, or the damage lasts for that many rounds.
Personally, I wouldn't use the last one, and I'd just assume the writers/editors were intoxicated and thought "DUDE! What's the duration on this spell? 1 round/level is the norm, right?", and the actual duration is "Instantaneous". Of course, I also enjoy the ridiculously heroic possibilities of DnD, and use it for escapism.


I don't get the continual hang-up about this. Ability Damage is always temporary - Shivering Touch just happens to be more temporary than most.

Unless you guys are thinking of Drain?

Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well.
It's temporary, but it doesn't get restored immediately.

[Optimystik]

It's temporary, but it doesn't get restored immediately.

I know - the 1/day is the general rule, while ST's line is specific.

[Starbuck_II]

ST and PWM you mean.

[Keld Denar]

Wait... a touch spell generally gives you an aura around your hand, and an attack to touch someone with; then if you miss that touch, you can try again with your regular attacks for the duration of that spell. Most touch spells are discharged after one successful touch, a few of them explicitly let you make as many touches as you want for the duration of that spell. Isn't that what ST's duration means?

Touch spells don't have durations. They last until you hit and fully discharge the spell, or until you cast another spell.

Touch spells that don't have durations:
Chill Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm)
Inflict X Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm)

General rule on touch spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration)

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

The touch spells that do have a duration, like Irresistable Dance or Touch of Idiocy, don't deal damage, but instead impart a status effect that lasts for the duration.

TL;DR, ST was a misprint and should have either been a penalty, or not have a duration. Chalk it up to poor editing. Its not the end of the world.

[Starbuck_II]

But Keld:
Power Word M also has a duration. The spell text even references it.

[absolmorph]

ST and PWM you mean.
Power Word Maladroit is a specific instance of an exception to a general rule.
Unless it is stated that something is an exception (by saying it works a specific way, regardless of the rules), then the general rule applies. The general rule for ability damage is that it heals at a rate of 1/day (or by lesser restoration and restoration). ST does not state that the ability damage goes away when the duration ends. Therefore, it is not RAW that it's an exception, so the ability damage goes away at a rate of 1/day.


But Keld:
Power Word M also has a duration. The spell text even references it.

I will say it again: SHIVERING TOUCH DOES NOT SAY WHAT THE DURATION IS FOR. Ability damage has a rule stating it disappears at a rate of 1/day. Shivering Touch does not (to my knowledge, at least) state that the ability damage goes away at the end of the duration.
Power Word Maladroit is an exception that explains how it (and only it) works in its spell description. If Shivering Touch included something like that, there would be no argument.
Deciding that the duration is for the ability damage is most definitely a house rule. If it works for you, that's fine.

[Optimystik]

We need to start handing out valium around here :smalltongue:

Of course the houserule works. The alternatives are having it do 3d6 Dex damage a round, or letting the wizard slap someone each round for 3d6. Or passive-aggressively banning the spell.