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Trekkin
2010-03-20, 10:01 PM
Are there any equivalents to the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds for Law and Chaos?

Blue Ghost
2010-03-20, 10:02 PM
I believe not.

Trekkin
2010-03-20, 10:10 PM
well why not?

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-20, 10:11 PM
Because a book focusing entirely on Chaos would be too weird and a book focusing entirely on Law would be too boring.

And Law and Chaos are not strictly defined "sides" like Good and Evil are. A Baatezu and an Archon would not team up to kill an Eladrin.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-20, 10:13 PM
Because Law and Chaos in D&D don't actually mean anything in any concrete sense, and WotC couldn't have written a book about them without admitting that.

Nerocite
2010-03-20, 10:14 PM
I would like to see a book about Neutrality.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-20, 10:17 PM
Hey, you can say that a book of absolute Chaos would be funny. I mean, the attempt has been already done before...


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512CAZ0HE9L.jpg

Mix this with Principia Discordia and you have the absolutest best book of Chaos in the world. Alas, there is no "Book of Random Happenstance" as a minor or major artifact.

Then again, you may enjoy your deck of many things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings)...

Oh Law, I weep for you so much...

Mastikator
2010-03-20, 10:20 PM
I would like to see a book about Neutrality.

What drives a man to neutrality? Is it gold, the lust for power, or were you just born with a heart full of NEUTRALITY?

Starscream
2010-03-20, 10:22 PM
I would like to see a book about Neutrality.

We can call it The Tome of "Meh." And there will be a prestige class called "The Adventurer who Decides Not to Adventure After All and Gets a Job as a Barrista Instead". You get immunity to fear and mind affecting spells due to not giving a crap.

New magic items:
The Deck of Actual Playing Cards.
The Rod of "That's it?"
The Orb That Wasn't Worth the Bother, Really

New Monster:
Gray Dragon: His horde consists of a pile of dirty socks, and his breath weapon causes mild malaise and aching.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-20, 10:24 PM
What drives a man to neutrality? Is it gold, the lust for power, or were you just born with a heart full of NEUTRALITY?

Of course not. You're either not interested in any alignment (as Starscream points out) or you actively hate all other alignments and pursue perfect neutrality (which is, of course, perfectly orderly and thus Lawful thus impossible).

You aren't born with it, unless you're an animal. You know, being an actual PC that's an animal, that is. Or a Druid, but druids aren't born, much less made; they are meant to be broken.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-20, 10:25 PM
I'd think a book of neutrality would focus on the "BALANCE!" thing druids had going on in second edition.

Boci
2010-03-20, 10:25 PM
And Law and Chaos are not strictly defined "sides" like Good and Evil are. A Baatezu and an Archon would not team up to kill an Eladrin.

Blood wars? But yes I get your point. There is no good equivilant.

Evard
2010-03-20, 10:25 PM
This topic is on page 2 of this forum

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145907

Trekkin
2010-03-20, 10:26 PM
A Tome of True Neutrality would be interesting, with a lot of balance-themed feats and spells and powers; it would be something for those enlightened characters watching good and evil chase each other in circles and interceding to prevent these foolishly moral mortals from permanently capsizing the moral balance "ship"...

Temotei
2010-03-20, 10:52 PM
We can call it The Tome of "Meh." And there will be a prestige class called "The Adventurer who Decides Not to Adventure After All and Gets a Job as a Barrista Instead". You get immunity to fear and mind affecting spells due to not giving a crap.

New magic items:
The Deck of Actual Playing Cards.
The Rod of "That's it?"
The Orb That Wasn't Worth the Bother, Really

New Monster:
Gray Dragon: His horde consists of a pile of dirty socks, and his breath weapon causes mild malaise and aching.

This made me laugh. :smallamused:

Grumman
2010-03-20, 10:53 PM
A Tome of True Neutrality would be interesting, with a lot of balance-themed feats and spells and powers; it would be something for those enlightened characters watching good and evil chase each other in circles and interceding to prevent these foolishly moral mortals from permanently capsizing the moral balance "ship"...
Read: it would be something for those idiots that think they're enlightened for believing in moral relativism.

There's no such thing as a balance between good and evil: more good is always better, and less evil is always better.

Ormur
2010-03-21, 12:31 AM
A balance between good and evil is a bit like a balance between healthiness and the Ebola virus. Moderate bleeding out of every pore of your body isn't preferable to no bleeding at all.

Of course good in D&D isn't exactly the same as in our world where whatever that's good is simply so by definition as opposed to some absolute moral category dictated by the universe. I'm not saying morality is relative only that it's not a universal constant, like the speed of light or something.

AmberVael
2010-03-21, 12:48 AM
Read: it would be something for those idiots that think they're enlightened for believing in moral relativism.

There's no such thing as a balance between good and evil: more good is always better, and less evil is always better.
In DnD, imprisoning someone's soul in a gem for a year until they snap and repent is good, and when using a spell to determine whether people are dying, healthy, or dead, is evil.

Those are the classic examples, yeah, but there is way more than that.

DnD morality is pretty messed up.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-21, 01:03 AM
I blame the change from 3 to 9 alignments- back then chaos actually meant something.

That said, there is no reason they couldn't do a focus on the two ethical extremes and look at ethical neutrality; they do have entire plains devoted to law and chaos, and frogs and platonic solids are both awesome.

BobVosh
2010-03-21, 01:21 AM
Of course not. You're either not interested in any alignment (as Starscream points out) or you actively hate all other alignments and pursue perfect neutrality (which is, of course, perfectly orderly and thus Lawful thus impossible).

You aren't born with it, unless you're an animal. You know, being an actual PC that's an animal, that is. Or a Druid, but druids aren't born, much less made; they are meant to be broken.

You just argued with a futurama quote.

Anyway, everything is born neutral. I would point out that you have to have a 3 or more int to have a alignment. I would then argue that babies don't have that kind of intelligence yet.

Also am I the only one who misses alignment languages? Back when a man could speak Chaos proudly.

The Tygre
2010-03-21, 10:50 AM
Rise, my old friend. The time of your glory is at hand.

http://www.montecook.com/images/Chaos_cover.jpg (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Chaos)

Mongoose87
2010-03-21, 10:53 AM
If I die, tell my wife I said "Hello."

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 10:56 AM
In DnD, imprisoning someone's soul in a gem for a year until they snap and repent is good, and when using a spell to determine whether people are dying, healthy, or dead, is evil.

Those are the classic examples, yeah, but there is way more than that.

DnD morality is pretty messed up.

What Time Outs are totally Good punishments.

Brendan
2010-03-21, 10:59 AM
the book of chaos would be a sketchbook covered in crayon drawings of forks and covered with chunks of tin foil with "ooh SHINY" scrawled on it with a damp piece of charcoal. Ooh, and every ten pages or so would be covered in mustard.

The book of law would be in binary. Or just the typical math textbook with "x" replaced with "treasure" and "y" replaced with "dragon slaying"
Y=2x+1,200 where 1,200 is xp.

Sliver
2010-03-21, 11:02 AM
the book of chaos would be a sketchbook covered in crayon drawings of forks and covered with chunks of tin foil with "ooh SHINY" scrawled on it with a damp piece of charcoal. Ooh, and every ten pages or so would be covered in mustard.

The book of law would be in binary. Or just the typical math textbook with "x" replaced with "treasure" and "y" replaced with "dragon slaying"
Y=2x+1,200 where 1,200 is xp.

Maybe it's in game representation, but not the actual books. I'm sure BOVD and BOED aren't filled with feats, templates and PrC information in the game world..

Lapak
2010-03-21, 11:09 AM
Because Law and Chaos in D&D don't actually mean anything in any concrete sense, and WotC couldn't have written a book about them without admitting that.The official materials don't do a good job of defining this, I agree. I've seen two frameworks imposed on the Law/Chaos axis that make a lot of sense and work mechanically in a D&D world, though.

Framework 1: Civilization/Individuality. Under this framework, Chaotic characters/monsters/etc. strongly believe not just in their own individual freedom, but that civilization and organization are inherently wrong. A ranger who lives alone in the woods and wants to let the townsfolk choose to live in the town isn't CG under this structure; he's NG. A Chaotic Good character would believe that civilization is inherently corruptive, decadent, and destructive of morality and goodness in general. The honorable-barbarian type, who is suspicious of cities and believes that people living there are worse for it is Chaotic Good in this framework. It's not enough to want your own freedom to be Chaotic; you have to believe that individuality should be imposed on everyone else too. (For their own good if Good, for your benefit if Evil.) This is what I generally treat it as in my games; a lot of player character types generally thought of as Chaotic fall into Neutrality on that scale here.

Framework 2: Cosmic Creation/Destruction. The forces that create and maintain the Material Plane are all Lawful under this context, and forces that wish to tear it down and return it to the primordial randomness are Chaotic. Whether you are good or evil, selfish or altruistic, bandit or dictator or vigilante or wise magistrate, people aligning themselves actively with the forces of preservation are Lawful in this framework, and Chaotic alignment is limited to people or creatures actively seeking destruction or bound in the service of forces that are.

In both cases, Chaos is not sheer weirdness and randomness, and has a distinct flavor of its own that could be represented in a sourcebook. But neither is the 'official' version.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 11:11 AM
the book of chaos would be a sketchbook covered in crayon drawings of forks and covered with chunks of tin foil with "ooh SHINY" scrawled on it with a damp piece of charcoal. Ooh, and every ten pages or so would be covered in mustard.

The book of law would be in binary. Or just the typical math textbook with "x" replaced with "treasure" and "y" replaced with "dragon slaying"
Y=2x+1,200 where 1,200 is xp.

I think he meant the text would describe how to be the most Choatic/Lawful, not that the books themselves are pure Choas/Law Incarnate.

Like by devoting yourself to Chaos: you can take this feat.

Bound to Chaos: With great Chaos comes great power and worries.
[Preq] Must be Chaotic, Character level 6
Benefit: By Binding your soul to Chaos, you gain power with a minor drawback.
You must declare you using the feat before rolling. You can gain (X= character level) +X to one roll 3 + Cha mod/day as a free action.
But 3/day, when not declaring the feat's useage- DM can will what you rolled would become a 1. This is only a Critical failure if it is a save or attack roll as normal.

I'm not a great designer but you get the idea.

Eldan
2010-03-21, 11:12 AM
There is Planes of Law and Planes of Chaos for Planescape, if that counts. Though they deal with geography more than with philosophy.

Heliomance
2010-03-21, 11:19 AM
Read: it would be something for those idiots that think they're enlightened for believing in moral relativism.

There's no such thing as a balance between good and evil: more good is always better, and less evil is always better.

In a world where good and evil are absolute, fundamental forces, that may not be true. If eliminating all evil in the world would upset the balance between heaven and hell and cause the multiverse to tear itself apart and be destroyed, I say put babies on the menu.

Eldan
2010-03-21, 11:25 AM
Read: it would be something for those idiots that think they're enlightened for believing in moral relativism.

There's no such thing as a balance between good and evil: more good is always better, and less evil is always better.

No, see, more good is best for everyone. But it's not necessarily best for me. Ever heard of the tragedy of the commons?

Radar
2010-03-21, 11:33 AM
And then someone realises, that very strict and orderly rules lead to chaotical structures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory). On the other hand ultimate chaos is well ordered and boring (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2010/03/09/episode-1223-make-the-truth/).
After that, Modrons and Slaadi go on a picnic together and have a really good time. The end.

Eldan
2010-03-21, 11:35 AM
And then someone realises, that very strict and orderly rules lead to chaotical structures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory). On the other hand ultimate chaos is well ordered and boring (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2010/03/09/episode-1223-make-the-truth/).
After that, Modrons and Slaadi go on a picnic together and have a really good time. The end.

Or the Modrons will start a millenia-long project to make enough mortals believe that law does not create chaotic structures at all, thereby changing that part of creation, since they don't like it.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-21, 11:36 AM
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who feels that BoVD and BoED were two of the worst books published for v3.x, and having two or three more would just be a terrible thing?

Eldan
2010-03-21, 11:55 AM
They were pretty bad, yes. On the other hand, they gave me demon lord and archdevil stats for 3rd edition. Much too weak ones, but something to work with.

Radar
2010-03-21, 12:27 PM
Or the Modrons will start a millenia-long project to make enough mortals believe that law does not create chaotic structures at all, thereby changing that part of creation, since they don't like it.
Boy, would they hate Kurt Gödel.

You know, it gives me an interesting epic (as in proportions and impact on the game world) campaign idea with Law vs. Chaos vs. PleaseDon'tDestroyThePrimeMaterialPlaneAsAColatera l as the main theme. I'm not sure, how should Chaos be depicted, but Law would be all Exterminate, Exterminate (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/Daleks_appearence.jpg) (or maybe more like Auditors of Reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditors_of_Reality)).

Eldan
2010-03-21, 12:30 PM
The auditors are really a very narrow and rather evil version of law... they see some laws, and think they have to enforce them, by, perhaps, eradicating things that do not confirm to their version of the law. A bit like inevitables, perhaps.
The Modrons are more about knowledge, really. They have their orrery and their marches. Instead of enforcing the laws they can see, they try to find the laws they do not know already. The way i see them, the Modrons are convinced that there are laws for everything, they just have not found them all yet. Scientific mentality.

DementedFellow
2010-03-21, 01:28 PM
In an entirely different ethical extreme, there is the Book of Erotic Fantasy.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-21, 01:33 PM
While BoEF has some commentary on ethics, the subject of the book is not really a type of ethics.

Radar
2010-03-21, 01:39 PM
The auditors are really a very narrow and rather evil version of law... they see some laws, and think they have to enforce them, by, perhaps, eradicating things that do not confirm to their version of the law. A bit like inevitables, perhaps.
The Modrons are more about knowledge, really. They have their orrery and their marches. Instead of enforcing the laws they can see, they try to find the laws they do not know already. The way i see them, the Modrons are convinced that there are laws for everything, they just have not found them all yet. Scientific mentality.
Hmm... i think, i would probably have to write my own incarnations of Law and Chaos for the concept anyway.
As far as official D&D goes, inevitables would be more suitable. Or maybe different incarnations of Law use different methods to fight Chaos? Direct confrontation for inevitables, intricate long-term plans for modrons.

Also: this (http://comics.shipsinker.com/2007/03/10/a-doctor-who-comic-the-10-doctors/) might have been my source of inspiration as well (an awsome story by the way).

Eldan
2010-03-21, 01:44 PM
Quite true. Both the devils and the archons are usually very direct. Though I've never really heard of Formians fighting chaos.

I'm not even sure if most Modrons would fight chaos, per se. They'd rather try and understand it, find it's rules and patterns.

hamishspence
2010-03-26, 06:18 PM
The 3.5 sourcebook Underdark has the Book of Perfect Balance and the Talisman of Neutrality.

The Arms and Equipment Guide has Regalia of Good, Regalia of Evil, and Regalia of Neutrality.

So Neutral seems to get almost as much artifacts devotes specifically to it as Good and Evil.

Trekkin
2010-03-27, 01:58 AM
So wait... if law and chaos in sufficient quantity cause each other... wouldn't it be something to find out that Mechanus is in fact a mechanical calulating mechanism driving Limbo, ensuring the perfectly random distribution of matter and energy that can alone be called Chaos...

Fishy
2010-03-27, 02:09 AM
I prefer the one where Limbo is the force that drives the pistons and gears of Mechanus. Like how your car is powered by a series of controlled explosions, except the size of a plane.

Mechanus, in turn, unfolds into a robot the size of reality.

Gralamin
2010-03-27, 02:11 AM
Quite true. Both the devils and the archons are usually very direct. Though I've never really heard of Formians fighting chaos.

I'm not even sure if most Modrons would fight chaos, per se. They'd rather try and understand it, find it's rules and patterns.

That has always seemed to be the point of Exiled Modrons to me. They take Modrons who, for whatever reason, have done something wrong, and expel them. This gives them the ability to interact with Chaos in a way that most Modrons cannot. And since they are Modrons, when the Exiled Modron dies, its energy returns to the energy pool, potentially carrying everything it has learnt about Chaos.

Trekkin
2010-03-27, 02:12 AM
So Limbo powers Mechanus' activity and Mechanus ensures Limbo's energy is self-sustainably applied.

This cosmology intrigues me.

The Pressman
2010-03-27, 02:19 AM
What drives a man to neutrality? Is it gold, the lust for power, or were you just born with a heart full of NEUTRALITY?

Personally, I believe it is the urge to do nothing, the pulsing need to sit and contemplate, and the desire for stasis.

megabyter5
2010-03-27, 10:22 AM
So Limbo powers Mechanus' activity and Mechanus ensures Limbo's energy is self-sustainably applied.

This cosmology intrigues me.

I as well, for that matter. Unfortunately, there is nothing to address how the two planes come into contact. Let's see, logically, the Outlands is between them, being the neutral plane. I've got it! Mechanus is inside the spire at the center, and Limbo is underneath the whole thing, with Mechanus functioning like a waterwheel, but with less water and more chaos. Then the reason magic stops working is because the conflict between the two planes gets stronger as you get closer... This is so awesome it makes the great wheel setup run home to its mommy.