PDA

View Full Version : Bowie Knives?



BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-20, 10:32 PM
What is a good ruling on bowie knives? Should they simply be masterwork daggers? or something else...?

Touchy
2010-03-20, 10:33 PM
Note for everyone, 3.5
We are both players in the same campaign.

valadil
2010-03-20, 10:35 PM
I'm pretty sure they're closer to a kukri.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-20, 10:38 PM
noob question.

What is a bowie knive?

awa
2010-03-20, 11:06 PM
its just a dagger nothing more nothing less.
I don't think it should be inherently masterwork

Book Wyrm
2010-03-20, 11:06 PM
This is a Bowie Knife (http://www.harrisoncustomknives.com/collectorknives/9%20bowie%202.jpg).

Thurbane
2010-03-20, 11:11 PM
That's not a knife, this is a knife!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/14/article-1045029-0056152F00000258-387_468x286.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Xzeno
2010-03-20, 11:38 PM
That's not a knife, that's is a knife!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Wow, I sure would look silly if that correction was itself incorrect.

Baerdog7
2010-03-20, 11:39 PM
I'd rule them as regular daggers.

dragonfan6490
2010-03-21, 12:09 AM
I would actually rule them as short swords. On principle of being that BA.

Thurbane
2010-03-21, 12:15 AM
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Wow, I sure would look silly if that correction was itself incorrect.
...yeah... :smallconfused:

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 12:21 AM
After discussing with my DM we figure it would probably be a Masterwork Kukri. A shame there is no such thing as a D5 otherwise that could have rolled damage the critcal seems acurate since a bowie is a curved blade... so after reading what you guys wrote and speaking with my DM we decided on a masterwork Kukri

neoseph7
2010-03-21, 12:23 AM
One of the big moves from AD&D to 3.X was a simplification of the combat system, and that meant a rather finite number of weapon niches. Arms and Equipment guide (3.0) went so far as to state that a Zweihander is a Claymore is a Nodachi is a greatsword. Just one of the sad facts of life.

There is nothing stopping you from calling a bowie knife a dagger or a short sword. For that matter, there is nothinbg stopping you from calling an Antimatter Pistol a composite shortbow, or Vice Verci. You can mess with names all the live long day and still not change the mechanics of the game.

That said, is a bowie knife easier to conceal than other weapons? Can it be thrown? Should anyone and their mother be able to use one? If so, than it should be a dagger.

It shouldn't be a short sword though. Look up the gladius on wikipedia. Now that's a short sword. (Or more accurately is a MW short sword in DnD and is thus a good example of what a short sword should look and feel like).

Shpadoinkle
2010-03-21, 12:52 AM
Bowie Knives would be daggers. Larger specimens would be short swords.

Lots of people think daggers are basically double-edged steak knives. They're not. They're closer to large hunting knives.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-21, 01:09 AM
Because a bowie knife can vary so much in size and shape, it really could be either a dagger or a short sword, a kukri on the other hand is a very specific weapon. A bowie knife is any medium-largish knife with a fixed blade and a clip point. A kukri is a fixed blade of a short-medium length with characteristically forward sweeping blade, with a drop point. Two wildly different animals IMHO.

lsfreak
2010-03-21, 01:16 AM
Because a bowie knife can vary so much in size and shape, it really could be either a dagger or a short sword, a kukri on the other hand is a very specific weapon. A bowie knife is any medium-largish knife with a fixed blade and a clip point. A kukri is a fixed blade of a short-medium length with characteristically forward sweeping blade, with a drop point. Two wildly different animals IMHO.

Kukris are also wielded more like hatchets than daggers/swords, including being used for many other things like wood-chopping.

I'd say a dagger or short sword. Or just houserule something in line with similar weapons - say a 1d4/x3 light weapon, that can be used slashing or piercing.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 01:57 AM
Well it appears to me that your average bowie knife would be like the difference between a Dagger and a Shortsword.

Thus, a bowie knife would be most like the Bastard Sword of daggers and short swords so to speak. This is a much bigger blade but not too much bigger and definitely looks like it would crit easy.

Maybe 1d4 18-20/x3 or 1d4 18-20/x4 ?

So far by reading this thread a good 50% of people determine it as a Short Sword and another good amount say its just a dagger. at any rate I see the Bowie would be the in between the two (the dagger and the short sword). It is a shame D5's don't exist otherwise I would have just said a bowie was a d5 with the x3 crit and 18-20.

I guess you could throw a bowie if you wanted doesn't seem like something you could throw however and is fairly concealable

Well thats just saying stuff I could see by looking at a bowie knife by first glance...

Upon research a bowie knife is defined as : A Bowie knife is a style of fixed-blade knife first popularized by Colonel James "Jim" Bowie in the early 19th Century. It was first made by James Black, although its common use refers to any large sheath knife with a clip point.

as taken from wikipedia which despite what people say about wiki is probably right. So over all its a knife either way, however it does have 1 feature that stand out: Clip Point.


According to wikipedia: The clip point style allows a quicker, and thus deeper, puncture upon insertion (clip point knives being thinner at the spine).

Okay so it is faster and allows for deeper puncture. Question is how do we interpret that with DND 3.5 game rules? Personally I would translate that as Masterwork and a high crit. Masterwork adds +1 to attack so it would be easier to because of the speed of a bowie knife. The high crit because of its ability to puncture deeper.

All in all what we can tell from the clip point feature of the bowie is that it is a stabbing weapon and is more likely to be a piercing. (or at least how I interpret it from that feature)

Now upon researching a dagger it is also a weapon made primarily for stabbing.

I personally think the idea of a short sword for a bowie knife can be ruled out mostly because short swords (according to what I read/learned online) are slashing weapons and are much bigger than the bowie. There isn't any competition with size on this one... the Short sword IS much bigger. Now, from the way things look in 3.5 it usually is "The bigger the weapon the more damage it does". The bowie is bigger but probably not by too much... it is however much more viscous...

Well there is some speculation I did upon barley through research

Worira
2010-03-21, 02:00 AM
A Bowie is actually one of fairly few combat/hunting knives that are reasonably well-balanced for throwing.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 02:10 AM
A Bowie is actually one of fairly few combat/hunting knives that are reasonably well-balanced for throwing.

Oh so it can be thrown okay.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-21, 02:47 AM
Drow long knife! 1d6, 19-20/x2, 10 foot increment. Can be used as a dagger or a short sword for feats applied specifically to either one. It's from RoE.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 02:53 AM
Drow long knife! 1d6, 19-20/x2, 10 foot increment. Can be used as a dagger or a short sword for feats applied specifically to either one. It's from RoE.

I don't know if a drow long knife would cut it :/ its blade would be far different from Elven blades.

we did come up with some sort of idea... although this really should be posted in homebrew:

1d4 masterwork dagger 18-20/x3

my friend also suggested that on a critical it should cause wounding... and I was like "WHAAAAAAAAAAAT!?" and he said "I do believe on a critical Katana's can vorpal... and thats a +5 property" and I was like "dude... op out the ass... but yeah, if a katana can vorpal on a crit im sure asking for wounding on a crit only wouldn't be too big a deal"

of course at the same time I feel... it would be a little over powered like that...

Touchy
2010-03-21, 02:54 AM
I posted later that infact, I was unsure and was basing this off of memory.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 02:57 AM
I posted later that infact, I was unsure and was basing this off of memory.

It's probably not vorpal is a bit unreasonable mate

so im guessing the wounding should come off and just leave as is. then post in homebrew section for review of a custom item?

Delcan
2010-03-21, 03:55 AM
Why the emphasis on masterwork? A masterwork weapon, per RAW, is "a finely crafted version of a normal weapon". The Bowie knife was a large utility knife made to be a tool useful for all occasions, including a fight if it came right down to it. A whole lot of them were produced - they weren't created one at a time for unique buyers. Some were, mind you - but those were the masterworks. Everything else was a normal weapon.

Now, that having been said, there is the old story about how James Black (the guy that made Bowie's Bowie) might have tripped over the recipe for Damascus steel somewhere along the line, and you could incorporate something similar into your D&D game. The original-made Bowies might be masterwork, because of some long-lost crafting technique.

Also note that there is nothing inherently special or unique about the Bowie knife's clip point. Per the same wiki article you reference, clip points are common on many knives. (I've got a clip point on a cheapo pocketknife in the kitchen drawer somewhere.) You want to talk about superior stabbing power and depth, pull out one of these. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto)

Balance-wise, a crit range of 18-20/x3 is absurd. There's a reason that all the weapons with a crit range of anything more than 20 are only x2 damage. You can have an improved crit range on a weapon, or you can have improved crit multiplier on a weapon, but you can't have both without magic or feats. If you want something akin to a Bowie knife, I would reflavor a dagger - the Bowie is a slashing/stabbing weapon, smaller than a short sword, and fairly throwable, all of which is covered by "dagger" without having to add anything.

I would go on, but this is really just a repeat post (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20) anyway.

DrGonzo
2010-03-21, 06:49 AM
It doesn´t only mechanically resemble a dagger, it is a dagger. Just use dagger stats, and call it a bowie knife.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 10:17 AM
It doesn´t only mechanically resemble a dagger, it is a dagger. Just use dagger stats, and call it a bowie knife.

It's big frickin' dagger lol

Fhaolan
2010-03-21, 10:55 AM
It's big frickin' dagger lol

Bowie knives come in two sizes, actual 'bowie knives' and the 'arkansas toothpick'. The bowies range from 6" to 12" blade length. The toothpicks range from 12" to 25" blade length. The name got confused during the US Civil War. Before that they were considered two different weapons.

The typical short sword in D&D, if I remember correctly, ranges from 20" to 30". I'm not 100% sure of that because my gaming bookshelf is buried behind a pile of show gear right now and I can't reach it. :smalltongue:

Therefore, a bowie knife is in fact a dagger. The largest arkensas tootpicks are easily in the short sword range.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 10:57 AM
I want a Bowie knife that sings like David Bowie. I mean, it is a Bowie knife.

awa
2010-03-21, 11:10 AM
i double agree 18-20 x3 that would make this weapon massively overpowered all the bowie knife is just a dagger, its much more deadly then a knife but so are all daggers if a silleto and poignard and a trench knife are all daggers then a bowie knife witch despite the hype is not that big (compared to other daggers not house knifes)or that specialized then it should just be a dagger. The modifications the bowie knife has make it more deadly then a house hold tool that happens to be sharp but that just puts it on par with combat weapons.

A butcher knife is not a dagger it's a knife

Lapak
2010-03-21, 11:19 AM
It's big frickin' dagger lolHistorical daggers WERE big. They weren't kitchen knives, they were heavy-bladed weapons where the blade by itself could be a foot long or more. They were bigger than you think!

Count me in with the 'it is a particular kind of dagger, use dagger stats' crowd. It's well-designed for hunting/skinning/etc. as well as fighting, so if I wanted to differentiate it at all I'd say it doubles as a MW tool for the relevant skills and up the price accordingly.

Fineous Orlon
2010-03-21, 11:44 AM
Why the emphasis on masterwork? A masterwork weapon, per RAW, is "a finely crafted version of a normal weapon". ...

****************

Balance-wise, a crit range of 18-20/x3 is absurd. There's a reason that all the weapons with a crit range of anything more than 20 are only x2 damage. You can have an improved crit range on a weapon, or you can have improved crit multiplier on a weapon, but you can't have both without magic or feats.

...what he said.

+1 to the crit range or +1 to the crit multiplier of a dagger, and you've got your 'special', the Bowie Knife.

Then you can pay extra to somebody to make a masterwork, should you so choose.

*******************
Dagger is a good answer by itself, but not so fun, or 'special.' The kukri's mechanics, if not the description, are a good answer as well.

********************

d5 is d10 divided by 2 or d6, ignore 6s.

awa
2010-03-21, 11:45 AM
Now i agree with that if you absolutely must differentiate between a bowie knife and a dagger i would also make it counts as a masterwork tool for skinning and similar thing but in my opinion only if you make the weapon part masterwork.

Lapak
2010-03-21, 12:48 PM
Now i agree with that if you absolutely must differentiate between a bowie knife and a dagger i would also make it counts as a masterwork tool for skinning and similar thing but in my opinion only if you make the weapon part masterwork.I figured you could add the 'MW tool' price to it by default and let the user pay the 'MW weapon' price on top if they wanted the combat benefits, but it might be simpler your way.

Mark Hall
2010-03-21, 12:58 PM
As most have said, dagger or shortsword. I did the same when I decided I wanted a character to carry a seax as a backup weapon.

John Campbell
2010-03-21, 03:10 PM
Note, this is a seax:
http://www2.ci-n.com/~jcampbel/images/photos/seax.jpg
These date back to the Dark Ages. The Saxons were named after the seax... Seaxna means "of the Knife-people". Big daggers are nothing new, and nothing special.

A Bowie is a dagger - just another variation on a theme millennia old. Maybe a short sword for the biggest ones... but note that I don't consider my seax, with its 13" blade, to have quite made it into the "sword" range. There's nothing inherently masterwork about them, though you could certainly get a masterwork one for the usual surcharge.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 03:59 PM
Note, this is a seax:
http://www2.ci-n.com/~jcampbel/images/photos/seax.jpg
These date back to the Dark Ages. The Saxons were named after the seax... Seaxna means "of the Knife-people". Big daggers are nothing new, and nothing special.

A Bowie is a dagger - just another variation on a theme millennia old. Maybe a short sword for the biggest ones... but note that I don't consider my seax, with its 13" blade, to have quite made it into the "sword" range. There's nothing inherently masterwork about them, though you could certainly get a masterwork one for the usual surcharge.

I think the typical bowie is a little shorter than that seax

regardless... in its most basic terms... a bowie a large sheath knife so definitely harder to conceal than a dagger and yes I know my stat ideas are ridiculous, it helps sometimes to start somewhere completely ridiculous to help create a better idea. Of course there is a better way this can be done... people say dagger people say short sword. I say both.

so instead of just spouting stats maybe this would help....

since people argue its a dagger its a short sword best way to go is in between... of course the difference between 4 and 6 is 5, and as well all know there is no d5's and im not sure how easy it would be to simulate it so I would say not masterwork and it rolls 2d3's (basiclly you divide 2 separate d6 rolls by 2 to get the out come of 2d3, and I use openrpg to play games over the internet so we simply can just type in [2d3] and get some sort of total. and of course this helps too: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm

altogether as far as Damage goes I think a mutually agreeable solution to the dagger vs short sword debate on a bowie would be 2d3 for damage. it can do 6 max like a short sword while still keeping low damage rolls. Still looking in as much people have said a bowie knife doesn't have to be masterwork since not all bowies are masterwork which makes sense, so no masterwork.

The only question now is criticals. Going from what the wiki said a bowie adds deeper thrust, now a lot of people argue that it don't mean squat. Well if that don't mean squat something about a bowie must... since it become very famous as a fighting knife. I mean James Bowie got shot stabbed and beaten in the sandbar fight but the man came on top with that knife. Clearly it must have some quality as opposed to a regular dagger, I mean their certainly must have been other kinds of fighting knives like daggers back in 1827. So either a shorter crit ranger like 18-20/x2 or a 20/x3 . One of those two ought to suffice.

The weapon I believe would be one of those two crit stats and if not either of them possibly at least 1 quality to make them stand out. amongst daggers... Bowies probably shouldn't receive the sleight of hand +2 bonus that daggers normally receive being large sheath weapons key term "large" thus harder to conceal (not saying it can't be concealed)

This would probably be a simple weapon I mean it works like a dagger you can stab and slash. I couldn't see a reason for it to be a martial weapon.

Well that's all I got now just some pitches out there to maybe figure out a good solution to the ruling on a bowie

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 04:06 PM
The only question now is criticals. Going from what the wiki said a bowie adds deeper thrust, now a lot of people argue that it don't mean squat. Well if that don't mean squat something about a bowie must... since it become very famous as a fighting knife. I mean James Bowie got shot stabbed and beaten in the sandbar fight but the man came on top with that knife. Clearly it must have some quality as opposed to a regular dagger, I mean their certainly must have been other kinds of fighting knives like daggers back in 1827. So either a shorter crit ranger like 18-20/x2 or a 20/x3 . One of those two ought to suffice.

Alternatively, it could just be a dagger.

A bowie adds a deeper thrust than a normal knife because it is designed for combat, not cuisine, similar to oh, say, daggers.

Daggers are very versatile and useful weapons, which fit with the concept of the bowie knife (especially since James Bond was probably a (UMD) rogue).

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 04:19 PM
Alternatively, it could just be a dagger.

A bowie adds a deeper thrust than a normal knife because it is designed for combat, not cuisine, similar to oh, say, daggers.

Daggers are very versatile and useful weapons, which fit with the concept of the bowie knife (especially since James Bond was probably a (UMD) rogue).

Yes but there was daggers before the sandbar fight that made the bowie famous. If it was just like any other blade then what purpose would it become famous for?

Would seem kind of stupid to put emphasis and make a big deal about something that has been around for ages :P.

I think overall it should be a 2d3 dagger with an 18-20/x2 crit simple weapon with dagger range probably dagger hardness as well. and has no concealment bonus from what the dagger gets seeing as its a huge bloomin' knife so definitely harder to conceal of course it must make up for that fault somewhere... I'd have to say the best way to make something/create a ruling is to apply realism with balance. I'd have to say this looks a lot more balanced now and is a reasonable ruling on Bowie Knives.

Zombimode
2010-03-21, 04:23 PM
since people argue its a dagger its a short sword best way to go is in between... of course the difference between 4 and 6 is 5, and as well all know there is no d5's and im not sure how easy it would be to simulate it so I would say not masterwork and it rolls 2d3's (basiclly you divide 2 separate d6 rolls by 2 to get the out come of 2d3, and I use openrpg to play games over the internet so we simply can just type in [2d3] and get some sort of total. and of course this helps too: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm

1. You keep disputing the existenz of the d5. But now you're suggesting d3's. Why dont you just use a d5? Its the same principle as the d3. A d3 is a d6 with 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3. A d5 is the same with a d10. Was that so hard?

2. Your math is off. 2d3 averages at 4, 1d6 at 3.5. Your bowie knife version is in fact a better short sword.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 04:26 PM
Yes but there was daggers before the sandbar fight that made the bowie famous. If it was just like any other blade then what purpose would it become famous for?

Would seem kind of stupid to put emphasis and make a big deal about something that has been around for ages :P.

I think overall it should be a 2d3 dagger with an 18-20/x2 crit simple weapon with dagger range probably dagger hardness as well. and has no concealment bonus from what the dagger gets seeing as its a huge bloomin' knife so definitely harder to conceal of course it must make up for that fault somewhere... I'd have to say the best way to make something/create a ruling is to apply realism with balance. I'd have to say this looks a lot more balanced now and is a reasonable ruling on Bowie Knives.

Sure, but how many daggers are used today, or even in the modern era?

The bowie knife is simply an impressive modern version of the dagger that may well be less effective if created using iron into of modern steel. If you really want to use it, I'd treat it as a dagger, perhaps with a 1d5 damage range or a 15 feet range increment if you're hung up on using it.

Keep in mind that any non-trivial improvement over the damage would mean classifying it as an exotic weapon for the purposes of balance (reference: drow throwing knife: it's a shortsword with a 10 ft. range increment and it's classified as exotic) (reference 2: elven lightblade: it's a shortsword with an 18-20 crit range, and it's classified as an exotic weapon).

Yora
2010-03-21, 04:28 PM
Similar question: Compared to the longsword, the scimitar has a smaller damage die, but an increased critical range.
The katana and wakizashi have the same stats as bastard swords and shot swords, but they are single edged curved blades like the scimitar and not double edged straight blades like the longsword.
So, would you say it's better for a wakizashi to use the stats for a short sword or a kukri?

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 04:37 PM
1. You keep disputing the existenz of the d5. But now you're suggesting d3's. Why dont you just use a d5? Its the same principle as the d3. A d3 is a d6 with 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3. A d5 is the same with a d10. Was that so hard?

2. Your math is off. 2d3 averages at 4, 1d6 at 3.5. Your bowie knife version is in fact a better short sword.

@ 1: Why thank you for pointing out something I didn't realize. I do suppose a d5 could "existenz". Question is would a 1d5 work better than a 2d3?

@ 2: My math was off? I don't recall ever doing averages for anything but okay. Well there ya go brought up a good argument for it not be a 2d3 since that would make it superior to a short sword. Which is bad (unless someone wants to argue a Bowie is more dangerous than a short sword but I doubt anyones going to make that argument. the average of a 1d5 would be 2.6 so basically a 3 if you round up. practically the same as a short sword. also according to your math the 1d6 is a 3.5, .5 you should round up so a 4. as far as damage goes that pretty much the same the only difference being the crit difference.

Worira
2010-03-21, 04:40 PM
That's not how numbers work.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 04:45 PM
Sure, but how many daggers are used today, or even in the modern era?

The bowie knife is simply an impressive modern version of the dagger that may well be less effective if created using iron into of modern steel. If you really want to use it, I'd treat it as a dagger, perhaps with a 1d5 damage range or a 15 feet range increment if you're hung up on using it.

Keep in mind that any non-trivial improvement over the damage would mean classifying it as an exotic weapon for the purposes of balance (reference: drow throwing knife: it's a shortsword with a 10 ft. range increment and it's classified as exotic) (reference 2: elven lightblade: it's a shortsword with an 18-20 crit range, and it's classified as an exotic weapon).

the daggers of today would probably not be like your traditional DND daggers obviously...

Daggers are used today mostly by street gangs and the like... a famous one would be the Stilliteo Switch Blade and in the military they have combat knives so daggers are used today... Well, far far superior ones which out date the dagger we all know in DND. At any rate better knives do exist. People also use diving daggers, that is a dagger used for when you go diving and you get attacked by a shark or other hungry creature. In prisons gangs have been known to make contraband out of things they find or use, for example the one I heard about on the history channel was people sharpening the edges of toothbrushes to make blades made for fighting or as is the modern day term "Shanking". Switch Blades are common today and there is all sorts of them around and about. There is a lot of plenty self defense knives out there mostly for senior citizens (I believe in some stats senior citizens can carry weapons.) so they have those for them....

Yeah we see quite a few knives today many used for fighting and self defense.

Yora
2010-03-21, 04:45 PM
The sum of 1+2+3+4+5 is 15, and divided by 5 it's 3.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 04:48 PM
That's not how numbers work.

you don't round up when you have a 5 or higher after the decimal?

If that is what your saying is not how numbers work I do believe you might want to look at this: http://www.math.com/school/subject1/lessons/S1U1L3GL.html

Im pretty sure when you have a 5 or more after the decimal you round up.

Heliomance
2010-03-21, 04:54 PM
@ 1: Thank you for pointing out something I didn't realize. I do suppose a d5 could exist. Question is, would a 1d5 work better than a 2d3?

@ 2: My math was off? I don't recall ever doing averages for anything, but okay. Well, there you go. You brought up a good argument for it not being a 2d3, since that would make it superior to a short sword. Which is bad (unless someone wants to argue a Bowie is more dangerous than a short sword, but I doubt anyone's going to make that argument). The average of 1d5 would be 2.6 - so basically a 3, if you round up. Practically the same as a short sword. Also, according to your math, the 1d6 is a 3.5 average, you should round up the .5, so a 4. As far as damage goes, that's pretty much the same - the only difference being the crit difference.

No, the average of 1d5 is 3, not 2.6. (1+2+3+4+5)/5=3. You don't round the decimal parts in averages, though - an average of 4 is superior to an average of 3.5. If you roll 2d3 10 times, you'll average 40 total. If you roll 1d6 10 times, you'll average 35 total.

Also, I recommend not poking fun at someone else's typo when your English leaves so much to be desired. I took the liberty of cleaning up the grammar in my quote - I do hope you don't mind.

Worira
2010-03-21, 04:56 PM
You don't round, period. The average damage from a die roll of 1d6 is simply 3.5. True, you'll never actually roll that exact number, but that doesn't mean rounding will create an accurate average.

EDIT: and I don't know where 2.6 was coming from.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 05:00 PM
No, the average of 1d5 is 3, not 2.6. (1+2+3+4+5)/5=3. You don't round the decimal parts in averages, though - an average of 4 is superior to an average of 3.5. If you roll 2d3 10 times, you'll average 40 total. If you roll 1d6 10 times, you'll average 35 total.

Also, I recommend not poking fun at someone else's typo when your English leaves so much to be desired. I took the liberty of cleaning up the grammar in my quote - I do hope you don't mind.

Nice math, i'm not great at math anyway so glad you showed me the proper method.

I recommend reading the person before hands post before calling out someone on a very subtle nudge. He was rather nasty in face forward discussion, also I don't mind. After all it is your time you are taking up fixing grammatical errors on an online forum, not mine. So that makes little difference to me.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 05:02 PM
You don't round, period. The average damage from a die roll of 1d6 is simply 3.5. True, you'll never actually roll that exact number, but that doesn't mean rounding will create an accurate average.

EDIT: and I don't know where 2.6 was coming from.

Ah okay, I was told otherwise, of course the person who I asked help with on those determinations is a moron (of course by moron i'm referring to my friend Hoovy Bodybags someone who isn't here XD) (i'm not much better when it comes to math so.... :P), but thanks for pointing that out.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-21, 05:14 PM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Kukri" ******** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Bowie knives deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine bowie knife in Arkansas for $20,000 (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my bowie knife.

Arkansas blacksmiths spend years working on a single bowie knife and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Bowie knives are thrice as sharp as stone tomahawks and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a tomahawk can cut through, a bowie knife can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a bowie knife could easily bisect a brave wearing full buffalo hide with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why the Native Americans never bothered conquering the Eastern United States? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined cowboys and their bowie knives of destruction. Even in the Civil War, Union soldiers targeted the men with the bowie knives first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Bowie knives are simply the best dagger that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for bowie knives:

(Light Exotic Weapon) 1d4 Damage 18-20 x3 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Bowie knives in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Old meme is old, but I couldn't resist.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 05:18 PM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Kukri" ******** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Bowie knives deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine bowie knife in Arkansas for $20,000 (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my bowie knife.

Arkansas blacksmiths spend years working on a single bowie knife and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Bowie knives are thrice as sharp as stone tomahawks and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a tomahawk can cut through, a bowie knife can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a bowie knife could easily bisect a brave wearing full buffalo hide with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why the Native Americans never bothered conquering the Eastern United States? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined cowboys and their bowie knives of destruction. Even in the Civil War, Union soldiers targeted the men with the bowie knives first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Bowie knives are simply the best dagger that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for bowie knives:

(Light Exotic Weapon) 1d4 Damage 18-20 x3 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Bowie knives in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Old meme is old, but I couldn't resist.

Holy ****

Sure seems like you really know your stuff... I wouldn't know about an Exotic weapon... of course I guess that would balance it out +2 to hit and damage is a little out there... 18-20/x3 a lot of folks said it was a bit much... other than that I agree with you good sir.

Zombimode
2010-03-21, 05:29 PM
Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

Heliomance
2010-03-21, 05:29 PM
*facepalm*

Birdman, Glyphstone was being sarcastic. That's all a load of tripe, based on the fanboying that goes on regarding katanas. I'll allow that it's possible you know this and are merely playing along, but based on the rest of this thread I don't hold out much hope for that possibility. Basically, don't believe a word of Glyphstone's post, it's satire of the highest order.

Touchy
2010-03-21, 05:29 PM
Holy ****

Sure seems like you really know your stuff... I wouldn't know about an Exotic weapon... of course I guess that would balance it out +2 to hit and damage is a little out there... 18-20/x3 a lot of folks said it was a bit much... other than that I agree with you good sir.

Birdman, it is an old meme joke. He wasn't being serious, infact he was probably poking fun at how people are serious about this.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 05:31 PM
Birdman, it is an old meme joke. He wasn't being serious, infact he was probably poking fun at how people are serious about this.

Yes I know I was playing along with the gag hahahaha someone posted the whole Katana thing earlier in this thread.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-21, 05:34 PM
Like I said at the end, old meme is old.

Zombi, gonna sig you though if you don't mind, it's been a while since I picked up new sig material.:smallbiggrin:

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 05:42 PM
so are we getting anywhere with this? lol we got 2 pages of back and forth.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-21, 05:45 PM
The best answer was probably back on page one - either normal nonmasterwork daggers, or nonmasterwork kukris if you want them to be 'better daggers'.

AslanCross
2010-03-21, 05:46 PM
so are we getting anywhere with this? lol we got 2 pages of back and forth.

It's pretty much a dagger or kukri. That's all.

I've refluffed weapon statistics a lot in my games. I've used the falchion to represent the nyek-ple-nen-toh (http://realmofmyth.com/contribution/display.html?id=5), for example.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-21, 05:55 PM
The best answer was probably back on page one - either normal nonmasterwork daggers, or nonmasterwork kukris if you want them to be 'better daggers'.

Yes kukri probably best fits the Bowie best.

Something off topic, just curious since im already here; Does anyone know if there are stats or rules for bicycles?

In particular these ridiculous things:

http://www.c4life.com/wheelman.JPG

AslanCross
2010-03-21, 06:41 PM
I don't know of any stats for bicycles, but I guess you could make it a vehicle that can move at a speed of 50 or 60 ft, requiring a DC 5 balance check to operate properly. Failing by 5 or less means you lose balance and stop; failing by more than 5 means falling. That way a even a commoner has a good chance of making one work. You must move a minimum of 10 feet or else you lose balance; Reflex Save DC 5 to keep from falling over.

-Generally it requires both hands. Using one hand increases the balance DC by 2. The balance DC goes up to 10 with both hands off.
-Going uphill requires a Strength check (maybe DC 10) every round; maybe a (mountain) masterwork bike has gears for doing this, so give a +2 circumstance bonus to the check.
-Some bikes have a space for cargo, (a basket in front or a rack in the rear) which would be generally the same size and shape as a backpack.

As for the Penny Farthing, which you pictured above, it's supposedly easier to ride at very slow speeds due to higher center of gravity. However, it's prone to accidents due to its unwieldy nature. You could say you could move a minimum of five feet with it, but it has a -2 circumstance bonus to balance checks.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-21, 06:45 PM
Perhaps a balance check based on speed? I know the faster I go, the easier it is to keep upright. Even riding along at a walking pace can tip unskilled riders.

Also, kukri have a very different shape and use than a bowie knife. I still say drow long knife would work best. Can be used as a short sword or a dagger, with better damage than a dagger, but a similar throwing range.

Also, it supports my idea of underdark=down under

Thurbane
2010-03-21, 08:02 PM
It's pretty much a dagger or kukri. That's all.
I completely agree with this. Adding a new weapon is fine if you want that much minute detail in your game, but depending on the size of the Bowie, a dagger, kukri or short sword should well and truly cover it.

Beleriphon
2010-03-22, 12:14 AM
Sure, but how many daggers are used today, or even in the modern era?

The Fairbain-Sykes Fighting Knife, the USMC Raider stiletto, the V-42 stiletto issued to the 1st Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade), any of a variety of balisong (butterfly knives), the jambiya (a Yemeni dagger), or the sgian dubh (its Scottish).

chiasaur11
2010-03-22, 12:23 AM
I figure Bowie knives would be carried by goblin kings.

Sorry. No-one else had thought of it.

Thomo
2010-03-22, 01:15 AM
The Fairbain-Sykes Fighting Knife, the USMC Raider stiletto, the V-42 stiletto issued to the 1st Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade), any of a variety of balisong (butterfly knives), the jambiya (a Yemeni dagger), or the sgian dubh (its Scottish).

Actually, the sgean dubh is more of a knife than a dagger. It is a small, easily concealed knife that generally slides into the sock. The blade itself is usually only 3-4 inches. The dirk is a dagger as such, worn on the hip and nowadays comes with a handy fork and spoon!

Most of the blades currently in use today are more comabt knives than daggers.

Beleriphon
2010-03-22, 01:18 AM
Most of the blades currently in use today are more comabt knives than daggers.

True, but the fact remains that a combat styled knife is a pretty common bit of military equipment, and generally gets used the same way a dagger would have been. The added benefit is that a combat knife can also be used a utility tool.

sambo.
2010-03-22, 01:24 AM
a Bowie knife is simply a large knife with a clip point. usually with a blade length of between 6" and ~12". the original knife wielded by Jim Bowie at the Sandbar Fight had a 9.5" blade.

they're nothing special and these days the term seems to be used for any fixed blade knife with a clip point.

i certainly wouldn't put them on a par with a Kukri. a Kukri's shape gives it a LOT more chopping power on the inside of the blade as well as being useable for other manouvers like disarming people.

a Kukri is a far superior design than a Bowie for a fighting blade.

in dnd terms, i'd simply list them as "knife" but maybe give them some extra strength and hardness as a bowie blade is usually pretty thick and very strong. they seem to be of teh "sharpened prybar" school of knifemaking.

seriously, a bowie knife is nothing special. unfortunatly for today's knife purchaser, there are a lot of exceeding crappy knives being sold as "bowie" knives that are just appallingly bad both in materials and workmanship. there are some very good bowie knives on the market. the Cold Steel Natchez and Laredo Bowie's come to mind as pretty good examples of the style.

now a Fairbairn-Sykes style fighting dagger on the other hand IS a masterwork weapon in every sense of the term. the design is a proven performer and Captain Fairbairn had a lot of experience fighting against gangs in Shanghai before coming up with that particular design.

sorry, i'm a bit of a knife knut.

Kukri > Bowie.


Most of the blades currently in use today are more comabt knives than daggers.

actually, most of the blades used by various military agencies are actually Utility knives rather than combat knives.

that and the "tactical" (tacky-kool) craze where almost any knife suddenly becomes "tactical" with the addition of a black coating.

"tactical" blades are the preserve of mall ninjas.

Beleriphon
2010-03-22, 01:32 AM
that and the "tactical" (tacky-kool) craze where almost any knife suddenly becomes "tactical" with the addition of a black coating.

"tactical" blades are the preserve of mall ninjas.

Isn't that just a matte coating designed to decrease the reflective value of the blade, so as to make it better for night work? At least that's presumably why the military would want the things coated black.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-22, 01:44 AM
Isn't that just a matte coating designed to decrease the reflective value of the blade, so as to make it better for night work? At least that's presumably why the military would want the things coated black.

I believe you hit it dead on.

sambo.
2010-03-22, 01:45 AM
Isn't that just a matte coating designed to decrease the reflective value of the blade, so as to make it better for night work? At least that's presumably why the military would want the things coated black.

that's the theory. NATO regulations stipulate that blades must be blacked out on knives carried during combat operations. various regular production knives these days that meet the rest of the NATO requirements are available as both black blade and bright blade. examples would include the Fallkniven F1 and S1, the Cold Steel Recon and a host of others. the original Ka Bar USMC is a proven performer both as a utility blade and as a fighting blade and is only available as a black blade (the newer style "next generation" models are available with bright blades).

however, most soldiers i know rekon that if they have to rely on a knife to kill someone in this day and age, they'v made some serious strategic and tactical ****-ups. a knife is more likely to be used as a prybar or a digging tool than to stab someone and knifemakers these days take that into account. the major exception here is the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger. these things are almost completely useless as a utility blade. try dressing game or cutting up veges for the camp oven with an F-S. it's just not designed for that purpose. but as a dispatching blade (i've used one as a pig-sticker) they are, hands down, one of the best designs ever produced for that particular task.

most knives used by soldiers today are used in much the same manner as a civilian would use a camping knife while out bush. in fact, the Fallkniven F1 and S1 and the Ka Bar USMC are all very popular outdoor blades.

TheOOB
2010-03-22, 07:07 AM
I fall under the "Just make it a dagger or possibly a kukri" camp. It's honestly about the best example of a dagger made in a modern era, other than it's mystique there isn't anything enormously special about it. Individual bowie knifes may be especially good, and thus be masterwork, but that's all about the person who made it.

I personally don't even like the all katana are masterwork rule, it really depends. It was true that only really good smiths usually made katana because good metal was rare in japan, but if someone is making cheap knock offs they wouldn't be masterwork.

Jayabalard
2010-03-22, 07:20 AM
Sure, but how many daggers are used today, or even in the modern era?Combat knives are still being bought by people (though generally I think they're being bought by collectors more than active military personell). For example: Randall Knives (http://www.randallknives.com/) has quite a backlog of orders... if you order a knife from them today, it will be delivered in 4th quarter 2014.

unre9istered
2010-03-22, 07:35 AM
I'd say it's still a simple weapons. d4 19-20 X2 crit. 10' throwing range can do slashing or piercing. Since it can do 2 types of damage up the price over a dagger. That or the Drow Long Knife for the longer versions.

Subotei
2010-03-22, 08:08 AM
I'd stat it as a dagger. Someone mentioned large versions 25 inches or so - I'd stat those up as sickles. Keeps them both in the simple group, as they're utility tools rather than weapons - I'd expect peasants to be able to use one.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-22, 08:50 AM
For what it's worth, despite it being fiercely ignored, I'm going to third the drow-long-knife suggestion. It feels right.

Greenish
2010-03-22, 09:27 AM
I'd say it's still a simple weapons. d4 19-20 X2 crit. 10' throwing range can do slashing or piercing. Since it can do 2 types of damage up the price over a dagger.That seems about right, it's exactly the same as a dagger, except it's special because it costs more.

Daggers can already be used for slashing or piercing.

Yora
2010-03-22, 09:35 AM
I personally don't even like the all katana are masterwork rule, it really depends. It was true that only really good smiths usually made katana because good metal was rare in japan, but if someone is making cheap knock offs they wouldn't be masterwork.

But you really didn't want to have a samurai coming to your door asking what crap it was, that you sold him. :smallamused:
And I think carrying a katana without being a samurai was punishable by death. So it would seem logical, that very few non-masterwork katanas were made. At least until 150 years ago.

Greenish
2010-03-22, 09:42 AM
But you really didn't want to have a samurai coming to your door asking what crap it was, that you sold him. :smallamused:
And I think carrying a katana without being a samurai was punishable by death. So it would seem logical, that very few non-masterwork katanas were made. At least until 150 years ago.I dunno, were all samurai rich?

One would think that the poorer ones would settle for lesser quality, especially if they weren't thinking of actually fighting.

[Edit]: And of course that's something that's setting specific.

Spiryt
2010-03-22, 10:04 AM
I dunno, were all samurai rich?

One would think that the poorer ones would settle for lesser quality, especially if they weren't thinking of actually fighting.

[Edit]: And of course that's something that's setting specific.

As far as I know, "ceremonial" swords, made without fighting in mind, could be often most expensive and sublime. Such things were happening around the world quite often.

And katanas weren't generally made "poor" save sengoku jidai period, when common, country smiths were making thousands of mass swords.

Generally certainly not all katanas were masterworks, but generally 'poor' swords were somehow rare in the past.

Today different guys can made thousands of clunkers for 200 $, but in the past it would be most often just waste of steel and time.

Solaris
2010-03-22, 11:12 AM
Combat knives are still being bought by people (though generally I think they're being bought by collectors more than active military personell). For example: Randall Knives (http://www.randallknives.com/) has quite a backlog of orders... if you order a knife from them today, it will be delivered in 4th quarter 2014.

Only because collectors outnumber us. I was the only man in my unit who didn't roll out with at least three knives on him - I had a tire iron. Sometimes a ball-peen or claw hammer. I like to tenderize the meat take prisoners for food interrogation.

Fhaolan
2010-03-22, 11:19 AM
Generally certainly not all katanas were masterworks, but generally 'poor' swords were somehow rare in the past.


Not necessarily true. What is true that very few antique period katanas that still exist today are of poor quality. That is likely because most of the antique poor quality weapons didn't survive until modern times.

I run into this one a lot, dealing with functional antiques of many types, including houses, furniture, etc. All the poor quality samples have been destroyed through use, leaving only be high quality samples behind. This gives a disproportionate view as to how good, on average, the craftsmanship of period objects actually were. The good stuff survives, the bad stuff doesn't, and if you wait long enough the bad stuff isn't even recognizable enough to be counted statistically.

Vorpalbob
2010-03-22, 11:35 AM
I figure Bowie knives would be carried by goblin kings.

Sorry. No-one else had thought of it.

*grins*

Oh, and chiasaur?

You remind me of the babe.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-22, 12:23 PM
I'd stat it as a dagger. Someone mentioned large versions 25 inches or so - I'd stat those up as sickles. Keeps them both in the simple group, as they're utility tools rather than weapons - I'd expect peasants to be able to use one.

They are actual knives made for fighting/self defense