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View Full Version : DM doesn't get it (Rant)



Raptor2213
2010-03-21, 01:26 AM
I've removed the body of this post because I'm done ranting. I've moved on with it, some DMs are new and do things they shouldn't. The steam has been blown off. Thanks to everyone who posted for giving me the chance go calm down about this so I can move on. In the end, it was probably both of our faults. Everyone will still side with whatever side they supported and say, "so-and-so was righter!", but it boils down to failures in communication on both ends. Those of you computer savvy will still be able to read my posts, which have not been removed, just made REAL hard to read.
Sorry, but I'm a bit burnt-up by this, and I have to rant.
The lead-in.
Eberron 3.5ed Campaign setting
DM has told player that all books with "Wizards of the Coast" log are accepted books to pull from
Playing a LE character who plans to multiclass as both paladin of tyranny and blackguard
DM tells player after the character is made, 1:30 after the game was supposed to start that he isn't allowing UA, as well as any non-LG Paladins. Player gripes, DM gives.
3rd-level game
Later in adventure, party encounters 4 Gnolls, followed by a Red Dragon(spawn?) CR7, followed by a Minotaur (CR6). Defeat said monsters with one casualty (mummy PC to Red Dragon(spawn?).
Walk into a room with several Kobolds. CE Barbarian grabs head Kobold with a non-critical touch attack followed with non-critical grapple check and shoves him into a DM created portable hole, Kobold goes into stasis, and gets let out later with little to say about the incident, and cowers in fear from the party. My PC apologized for the rudeness of the barbarian, and was dripping with politeness
My PC proceeds grab two MW mining picks left by fleeing Kobolds (who did not return for >30min at least, never saw said Kobolds return)
The gripe:
Player attempts to sell above mining pics in town, talks to a shopkeeper. Shopkeeper offers 500g for two, PC rolls diplomacy, rolls 14, shopkeeper counter-offers with 475g. PC feels insulted and goes next door. First shopkeep calls 2nd and tells him of the previous conversation, second shopkeep offers 250g for both.
Why would a shopkeeper every go LOWER on his bid, if not to directly insult the offerer?
PC feels insulted, and posts offer at local adventurer's guild. Sells mining picks to Kobolds for 600g EACH.
Kobold (who previously cowered in fear from the party) shows up, casts a DM-created curse on the PC, DM informs the players that he is a 20th-level caster (in a 3rd-level game), and ports out. DM does not roll to hit player on the touch attack needed, save is DC 30 (again, 3rd-level game).
Player casts detect magic, no magic is present.
Next morning, player is a cursed with being a gnome.
PC goes to the clerics of the evil order he follows, and is told that it is a curse, removable by remove curse. PC asks the price of said 3rd-level spell (MV <300), cleric tells PC it will cost >1700g. Later were told that the good clerics down the street sell the same spellcast for 150g.
Because EVERYONE knows that it's good economics to sell things 12x your competitor's asking price in the same market.

tyckspoon
2010-03-21, 01:33 AM
Man, that's just stupid all-round.

Serpentine
2010-03-21, 01:33 AM
Why on Earth would anyone pay hundreds of gold for a small-sized mining pick? :confused:

Other than that... Looks like a lot of poor communication to me.

Kallisti
2010-03-21, 01:34 AM
...?:smallconfused:

I have no clue what the GM could possibly be thinking.

EDIT:@^ They're masterwork. Although the player may have erred in trying to sell Small masterwork picks to Medium creatures, the logical response is for shopkeeper 1 to say "I don't have any use for tiny little picks, you should go look for someone small enough to use them," not make any offer, and especially not lower his offer in response to a non-epic fail Diplomacy check

Samm
2010-03-21, 01:43 AM
This DM seem really incoherent at the least. There's plenty of suspension of disbelief and it just doesn't really make sense. I think he's pretty poor from what I've heard...

This DM needs to learn how to DM.

ryzouken
2010-03-21, 01:46 AM
Eject that guy from his position or from the group. Failing that, eject yourself. No game better than bad game.

Nothing described above is redeeming in any fashion. Essentially, you're playing for someone only interested in reveling in power. I very much doubt you'll get a good game in given the stupid crap that went on over something so mundane as selling excess equipment.


Ugh. I'm annoyed and it didn't even happen to me. :smallfurious::smalltongue:

sonofzeal
2010-03-21, 01:59 AM
I'm almost willing to buy that he's got some crazy meta-plan behind all this insanity.


Consider for a second - he had shopkeepers offering low prices, then even lower prices (presumably to punish you for haggling and slowing down the game), then even lower prices (presumably to punish you for comparison shopping and slowing down the game), then... gives you a fairly high price on a silver platter?

Odd. Either he's the most chaotic DM I've seen (and I've seen some doozies), or he's got an intricate master plan. Or both.

tyckspoon
2010-03-21, 02:00 AM
EDIT:@^ They're masterwork. Although the player may have erred in trying to sell Small masterwork picks to Medium creatures, the logical response is for shopkeeper 1 to say "I don't have any use for tiny little picks, you should go look for someone small enough to use them," not make any offer, and especially not lower his offer in response to a non-epic fail Diplomacy check

A masterwork mining pick =/= a masterwork weapon. It's a masterwork tool for Profession (Mining). It's worth about 53 gold by default, and by standard rules can be sold for half that. And even if they were weapons instead of tools.. 500gp is a massively larger offer for them than you would normally get, and I don't know why the players/characters would be crazy enough to have refused it in the first place.

krossbow
2010-03-21, 02:09 AM
i feel sorry for the shopkeepers in this world. Thats like spending 10k on a shovel because its really nice.

Temotei
2010-03-21, 02:22 AM
i feel sorry for the shopkeepers in this world. Thats like spending 10k on a shovel because its really nice.

I really like that sandwich's appearance! It's quite endearing! *buys sandwich*

Dude...you just paid that guy fifty bucks for a sandwich.

I know!

Rankar
2010-03-21, 02:28 AM
Learning to DM takes time... But this sounds just plain silly. Either he's a genius that has a plan so vastly far beyond what you're ready for, or he needs PunPun to smite him.

I'd say your rant is acceptable, but give it another chance before starting the mutiny and taking the position of DM for yourself then run him through Tomb of Horrors.

krossbow
2010-03-21, 02:30 AM
OH *(&%^!

that pickaxe is the one that will pierce the heavens! (http://www.teamfortress.com/war/saxtonhale/poopyjoe.htm)

Touchy
2010-03-21, 02:32 AM
He might of considered that the store owners would value it differently?
Or the fact that evil clerics aren't usually specializing in removing curses, so they would have a lower stock of said remove curse. Failing that much, he's an idiot and thats about all I can defend him on.

Rad
2010-03-21, 03:25 AM
This looks like a lot of miscommunication and petty releases of frustration. I'd advice both of you to seriously knock it down or the Snarl will destroy your game.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-21, 07:36 AM
So... basically, this DM makes up numbers as (s)he feels like it, without regard for game balance or realism or what the books say? For no apparent reason, to no obvious end?

That's... interesting. There are several possible approaches that you could take to this issue. For example: You could stop taking the story at all seriously, just play along, and wait to discover what level of insanity the DM is capable of reaching if simply allowed to proceed without criticism. This could, potentially, be fun. Alternately or in addition, you could have your anti-paladin plot to murder everyone for their inappropriately nonsensical behavior.

Killer Angel
2010-03-21, 09:12 AM
Why would a shopkeeper every go LOWER on his bid, if not to directly insult the offerer?


I'm not insulting you, I'm teaching you a lesson: I was being very generous, because I'm used to offer good prizes for the first-time client, so they come back. And you try to negotiate?!? well, try next door.



PC feels insulted, and posts offer at local adventurer's guild. Sells mining picks to Kobolds for 600g EACH.


...but this is inconsistent.



PC asks the price of said 3rd-level spell (MV <300), cleric tells PC it will cost >1700g. Later were told that the good clerics down the street sell the same spellcast for 150g.


:smallsigh:



DM informs the players that he is a 20th-level caster (in a 3rd-level game), and ports out.

:smallannoyed:
Normally, I would find this the worst thing, but must be said that this is one the most recurrent mistakes, for new DMs.

Raptor2213
2010-03-21, 11:00 AM
A masterwork mining pick =/= a masterwork weapon. It's a masterwork tool for Profession (Mining). It's worth about 53 gold by default, and by standard rules can be sold for half that. And even if they were weapons instead of tools.. 500gp is a massively larger offer for them than you would normally get, and I don't know why the players/characters would be crazy enough to have refused it in the first place.
He said that they qualified as MW Light Picks (therefore weapons)


Normally, I would find this the worst thing, but must be said that this is one the most recurrent mistakes, for new DMs.
He's a new DM. I think I'm going to try to tough it out. But DANG, I had to bitch to get this outa my system. The bad thing is, one of the other players was actually DEFENDING the DM's position. That this was fair market value/economics. :smallsigh:

Edit: Rant closed!

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-21, 11:14 AM
I really like that sandwich's appearance! It's quite endearing! *buys sandwich*

Dude...you just paid that guy fifty bucks for a sandwich.

I know!

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/halolz-dot-com-teamfortress2-captainfalconheavy-showmeyafood.jpg

Of course, Sandwiches are one of the top 5 items Wished for.

Sliver
2010-03-21, 11:17 AM
I'm not insulting you, I'm teaching you a lesson: I was being very generous, because I'm used to offer good prizes for the first-time client, so they come back. And you try to negotiate?!? well, try next door.

1 - "You made me angry so now I will reduce my initial offer" doesn't sound like a good business model. Especially since the first haggle is for testing the water between the client-merchant so pissing off a client, especially an adventuring one..

2 - It's not really "try next door" really, because he magically calls over to screw over the deal.

3 - Why the hell the other merchant listens to him? He knows that the slight reduction in cost caused the PCs to search for a better deal. He either wants to make the purchase and then he won't do it, or he doesn't want to buy the damn pick and he won't give any offer, because he knows they won't accept such an offer.

sonofzeal
2010-03-21, 11:17 AM
That this was fair market value/economics. :smallsigh:
D&D has never had that. (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060909.html)

Math_Mage
2010-03-21, 03:19 PM
<snip>

Of course, Sandwiches are one of the top 5 items Wished for.

"And your other wishes?"
"Why would I need other wishes?" (http://xkcd.com/152/)

GoC
2010-03-21, 05:36 PM
This DM needs to learn how to DM.
This man said it.

Skaven
2010-03-21, 05:43 PM
He's making it up as he goes along, that much is obvious. He's deciding things on the fly to work against the party.

As said previously, he doesn't seem to know how to DM. The DM is tasked with playing with the party, not against it. Playing with the party offers challenges to the party, but does not actively work to screw them over if they do things he does not like, as that guy is doing.

DabblerWizard
2010-03-21, 06:49 PM
It's theoretically possible that your DM has some sort of obscure logic to rationalize his sporadic, irregular, PC-hurting behavior. :smallconfused:

Or he just has no clue what he's doing. :smallfrown:

Or he's being intentionally foolish. :smallmad:


I would suggest talking to him, trying to figure out which one of the above is the case. Hopefully this will lead to a greater understanding between both of you... or maybe it will just lead to quarrels and friendships being dissolved... but either way, at least you'll know why this is happening, and that can be comforting. :smallsmile:

MachineWraith
2010-03-21, 06:50 PM
He might of considered that the store owners would value it differently?

None of the DM's pricing makes sense. Nor does punishing the player for trying to get more. Naturally the player will be wanting to get as much gold for his loot as possible.


Or the fact that evil clerics aren't usually specializing in removing curses, so they would have a lower stock of said remove curse. Failing that much, he's an idiot and thats about all I can defend him on.

There is no "stock" of remove curse. At worst, the evil cleric should just say, "I did not ask my god for the ability to cast that spell today. Come back tomorrow." There's really no reason for the evil clerics to charge that much.

tyckspoon
2010-03-21, 07:03 PM
There is no "stock" of remove curse. At worst, the evil cleric should just say, "I did not ask my god for the ability to cast that spell today. Come back tomorrow." There's really no reason for the evil clerics to charge that much.

I can think of two, one IC and one OOC, but neither one really makes the DM look good considering why a Remove Curse was needed in the first place (for those with short attention spans, a 20th level caster spontaneously generates, casts an irresistable curse on a 3rd level character, and disappears.) The IC reason is that the cleric thinks he's the only source of this spell for the character, so he can safely gouge the PC for whatever he wants (the flaw is that it really shouldn't be too hard for somebody to talk a good cleric into uncursing him, even if he appears to be Evil. Which he doesn't, 'cause right now he's a gnome.) The OOC reason is the DM may have realized just how ludicrously he over-paid for those two picks and wanted an excuse to take some of the money back from the party.

Evard
2010-03-21, 07:09 PM
Personally if I was an evil cleric and I noticed that a local evil adventurers group needed a remove curse I would do it for free, of course asking for a favor in return later ;) (cause that's how evil rolls baby!)

dentrag2
2010-03-21, 07:24 PM
Personally if I was an evil cleric and I noticed that a local evil adventurers group needed a remove curse I would do it for free, of course asking for a favor in return later ;) (cause that's how evil rolls baby!)

No, that is how Lawful Evil rolls. Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil would probably just not cast it on them, after taking the money.

Zom B
2010-03-21, 07:35 PM
Whew. I clicked on this thinking it was about me.

EDIT: Wait, you have other DMs? *Runs away crying*

Evard
2010-03-21, 07:39 PM
Couldn't a polymorph spell also work to turn the guy back from being a gnome? Lol an evil bard could cast some sort of image to make them think he got turned back lol

Raptor2213
2010-03-22, 06:08 AM
Couldn't a polymorph spell also work to turn the guy back from being a gnome? Lol an evil bard could cast some sort of image to make them think he got turned back lol
Polymorph is temporary, curses are permanent. It would take Polymorph any Obect to be permanent (mabye), and that's a 7-8th-level spell if memory serves.

Whew. I clicked on this thinking it was about me.

EDIT: Wait, you have other DMs? *Runs away crying*
Yes, see what you get for not hosting a session every week? I have to go elsewhere for my fix.
We only have 3-hour arguments because SOMEONE keeps trying to cheat on his die rolls. That, and finger of deathing players who irk him when its his turn to DM.
Why would this be about you now?

Edit: Rant closed!

RebelRogue
2010-03-22, 08:13 AM
Polymorph is temporary, curses are permanent. It would take Polymorph any Obect to be permanent (mabye), and that's a 7-8th-level spell if memory serves
Baleful Polymorph (a 5th level spell) is permanent.

Indon
2010-03-22, 08:35 AM
Why would a shopkeeper every go LOWER on his bid, if not to directly insult the offerer?

To say that they are uninterested in bartering after a certain point and that if you don't take their offer, right now, there's no deal.

Though, admittedly, that angle implies the DM was trying to RP the haggling, but your roll implies the DM hadn't told you he was trying to RP it if he was, so that would be a failure of communication there.

But on the more broad subject of the game, it sounds like your group is fairly new to D&D, and the players as well as the DM seem to be trying to settle on an approach to the game.

Raptor2213
2010-03-22, 11:37 AM
But on the more broad subject of the game, it sounds like your group is fairly new to D&D, and the players as well as the DM seem to be trying to settle on an approach to the game.
Its a mix of new and old, the DM being new to DMing, me, being the old hat that I am, finding rule holes here and there and pointing them out (which s a habit I need to stop). Yea, we have a lot to work on. I'm not as upset any more, I had to blow off some steam and make sure it wasn't just me who thought that way that some of the thing ls he did was rediculous.
Baleful is still a 5th lvl spell where a cheaper 3rd could handle it. Btw, the potions for cure curse? 800g. I also don't think baleful can turn you into non-gerbal shapes ;), but it's been a while since I looked at it.

Edit: Rant closed!

The Glyphstone
2010-03-22, 11:49 AM
No, that is how Lawful Evil rolls. Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil would probably just not cast it on them, after taking the money.

Lawful Evil would do it for free in exchange for a favor.

Neutral Evil would do it for money - they're getting something for nothing except an expended spell slot, win situation for them.

Chaotic Evil might do it depending on how much money was offered, and the odds of the party coming after them and killing them if they reneged on the deal.

Killer Angel
2010-03-22, 12:29 PM
3 - Why the hell the other merchant listens to him? He knows that the slight reduction in cost caused the PCs to search for a better deal. He either wants to make the purchase and then he won't do it, or he doesn't want to buy the damn pick and he won't give any offer, because he knows they won't accept such an offer.

I didn't tell that my interpretation was the one in case. I propose an interpretation of a theoretical case of a merchant lowering his initial offer.
Certainly not wise, but comprehensible, in a certain background.

Thajocoth
2010-03-22, 02:55 PM
There's something we're not seeing here. The curse thing underlines that. Someone doesn't suddenly show up and cast a high level curse like that unless either it's a plot-hook or the DM has a problem with something that he's not using his words to discuss out of game. The discrepancy between good and evil prices for removing the curse points at the player's evil alignment as the issue, but it's very difficult to be sure.

Raptor2213
2010-03-22, 04:21 PM
There's something we're not seeing here. The curse thing underlines that. Someone doesn't suddenly show up and cast a high level curse like that unless either it's a plot-hook or the DM has a problem with something that he's not using his words to discuss out of game. The discrepancy between good and evil prices for removing the curse points at the player's evil alignment as the issue, but it's very difficult to be sure.
We're a mostly-evil party. The DM sucks at plot hooks. He mentioned that he was trying a bit, but instead of saying "Its 1700 ...or... he left it at a flat price. Turns out that the 20th lvl Kobold (who was defeated by a lvl 3 barbarian) was also a plot hook, but I ask you, what self-respecting 20th level caster doesn't have some form of defense against that? All-in all, total FUBAR.
Edit: Rant closed!

HunterOfJello
2010-03-22, 05:48 PM
I played one game with a DM like that once. He had zero preparation done, used a powerful wizard to do whatever he felt like to mess with the players like teleporting them around or paralyzing them, and would change character's alignments based on single actions (kill a murderer? you're not chaotic evil).


I didn't waste my time playing another game with him. Some people don't know how to DM and never will.

Draxar
2010-03-22, 06:28 PM
1 - "You made me angry so now I will reduce my initial offer" doesn't sound like a good business model. Especially since the first haggle is for testing the water between the client-merchant so pissing off a client, especially an adventuring one..

Especially given that the player rolled enough on his diplomacy that the very least, it should not make him angry.

Raptor2213
2010-03-22, 08:42 PM
I've removed some of the body of this post because I'm done ranting. I've moved on with it, some DMs are new and do things they shouldn't. The steam has been blown off. Thanks to everyone who posted for giving me the chance go calm down about this so I can move on. In the end, it was probably both of our faults. Everyone will still side with whatever side they supported and say, "so-and-so was righter!", but it boils down to failures in communication on both ends. Those of you computer savvy will still be able to read my posts, which have not been removed, just made REAL hard to read.