Alchemy?

[Froogleyboy]

Okay, The topic of Alchemy utterly confuses me, but interest me at the same time. Does anyone here know anything about it

[Serpentine]

Well, you could always start with Wikipedia...

But basically, it's the precurser to modern chemistry, may have contributed to the development of the scientific method, and was largely (or at least significantly) devoted to turning lead into gold.

What else do you want to know?

[Froogleyboy]

Well, I know everything on the wikipedia page, but I was wondering about practicing it

[Lycan 01]

Watch Fullmetal Alchemist.

Or play the Elder Scrolls games.


Alchemy is not real. Or at least, it doesn't actually work. Chemistry is the (successful) descendant of it, though...

[Serpentine]

"Practicing"? :smallconfused: Uh... Try a chemistry degree? It's like saying "y'know, I'd really like to try my hand at haruspicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex)." It's well and truly obsolete.

[Thajocoth]

It's just primitive chemistry with religious beliefs attached to it, basically. While the whole "lead to gold" thing is the most famous part of it, and was supposedly alchemy's holy grail, most of alchemy didn't revolve around converting lead into gold, and their methods of doing it tended to work because all their metals and stuff were impure... (There were small traces of gold in the lead...)

[golentan]

It's a fun way to kill a couple centuries. The main thing to remember is that alchemy is distinct from chemistry primarily in Purpose and Availability.

The purpose is primarily of refining or combining new and interesting substances (no, you're not going to find a philosopher's stone, don't try). For this, you want a couple of glass flasks, a source of heat, a distillation tube, and so forth. Just experiment, but take careful notes. Be wary of potentially toxic/explosive combinations. A firm grounding in chemistry is helpful, but most of it boils down to avoiding powerful oxidizers or obviously toxic chemicals (chlorine, bleach, mercury, lead, etc...)

The second joy of alchemy is in the Availability. Find a good, old fashioned manuscript. You can't make heads or tails of it by itself, you need to solve riddles, crack codes, and decipher inscriptions to get at someone else's notes. You can do the same to your notes.

A good starters guide is fun. And I always recommend people look at my notebooks. They're little triangular ones, but I doubt they're still in print.

[Serpentine]

Thaj: apparently an oxide of lead is yellow, too.

[Froogleyboy]

Well, I've read that there is more to alchemy then the chemistry part. Like a philosophy side to it

[Kallisti]

Practicing it? It was basically modern chemistry with less sophisticated tools and knowledge. If you really wanted you could read up on alchemical theories and ideas, memorize some alchemical symbols, and get some old-fashioned alchemical glassware...

[tyckspoon]

Oh, that's easy. Get some mercury. Play with it until you start hallucinating. Record your 'insights' in a journal, but make sure to obfuscate them with bad Latin and mythological allegories so nobody else can steal your precious discoveries. Alchemy! :smalltongue: (Consumption of your own purified urine to extend your lifespan is optional.)

In seriousness, there's the early scientific chemistry, and then there's the mysticism. The mysticism, in a horribly simplified fashion, is largely based around making things change colors. If it turns white or gold when you do something to it, that's good- it's being 'purified'. If it turns black, that's bad, you're introducing Bad Mojo. Red.. I don't remember, exactly, but I think it was generally considered a positive step toward achieving white.

[Froogleyboy]

It's a fun way to kill a couple centuries. The main thing to remember is that alchemy is distinct from chemistry primarily in Purpose and Availability.

The purpose is primarily of refining or combining new and interesting substances (no, you're not going to find a philosopher's stone, don't try). For this, you want a couple of glass flasks, a source of heat, a distillation tube, and so forth. Just experiment, but take careful notes. Be wary of potentially toxic/explosive combinations. A firm grounding in chemistry is helpful, but most of it boils down to avoiding powerful oxidizers or obviously toxic chemicals (chlorine, bleach, mercury, lead, etc...)

The second joy of alchemy is in the Availability. Find a good, old fashioned manuscript. You can't make heads or tails of it by itself, you need to solve riddles, crack codes, and decipher inscriptions to get at someone else's notes. You can do the same to your notes.

A good starters guide is fun. And I always recommend people look at my notebooks. They're little triangular ones, but I doubt they're still in print.

this, also. I mean, I know chemistry (kind of) It's the only class (other then writing) that I have an A in

[Serpentine]

Froogleboy re. philosophy: Mm... Nothing that's relevant today, that I know of, or at least that can't be find in other non-pseudoscience based philosophies.

[Kneenibble]

There's a really neat book called "Sex, Drugs, Einstein, and Elves" that has a section on the mysticism part of alchemy.

I think that's where I read it, anyways.

The play "Inferno Sonata" whose wright I forget, written about August Strindberg's obsession with alchemy, is also fantastic. It's fairly new though and might not be largely available in print.

The majority of Newton's writings are actually devoted to alchemy. The Latin is not bad per se (no worse than his mathematical writings in Latin), he merely uses a specialized vocabulary that makes it gruelling to read; he puts Lucretius to shame in that respect.

Don't take the attempts to pee on your intellectual curiosity too much to heart, froogleyboy: if you have a home chemistry set to screw around with, you're practicing alchemy. To do so in anything approximating an historically authentic way would cost you far more time and money than you could possibly have.

[Starscream]

Alchemy is what you get if you take chemistry and remove all the science, i.e. the bits that work.

As Terry Pratchett is fond of writing, all alchemists succeeded in doing is turning gold into less gold.

[golentan]

Alchemy is what you get if you take chemistry and remove all the science, i.e. the bits that work.

As Terry Pratchett is fond of writing, all alchemists succeeded in doing is turning gold into less gold.

And producing a million and one fascinating things to play with, and forming the basis of modern chemistry. It doesn't need to be science to be interesting. Smacking the man down for showing some fascination is like telling a kid it's stupid for him to try learning biology by raising chickens, because farmers aren't scientific.

[Starscream]

Smacking the man down for showing some fascination is like telling a kid it's stupid for him to try learning biology by raising chickens, because farmers aren't scientific.

Farmers are very scientific.

[Amiel]

It is well known that ducks, chickens and other lesser forms of poultry can poop golden eggs. This is blatant alchemy at work.

[Serpentine]

Alchemy is what you get if you take chemistry and remove all the science, i.e. the bits that work.Actually, it's more chemistry before modern science, rather than without it per se. To take Golly's analogy, it's like trying to study the biology of a chicken without a concept of cell structure and evolution - yeah, you can do it, and it can be interesting (I'm not terribly enthused by cellular biology, myself), but you're losing a lot of current knowledge and value in the field, without adding anything much (at least nothing true).
And, of course, there's a big difference between studying something because it's interesting, and "practicing" something over more recent developments of the field (like, say, pre-Germ Theory medicine) because... I don't know why you would. An interest in the philosophy of the time is a reasonably different matter.
It is well known that ducks, chickens and other lesser forms of poultry can poop golden eggs. This is blatant alchemy at work.Don't be silly. Don't you know anything about basic biology? They lay golden eggs. Sheesh.

[Pheehelm]

David Morgan-Mar has some more stuff (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2247.html) on the history of alchemy and chemistry. Turns out you can turn lead into gold, at least in theory, and you can definitely turn mercury into gold. I couldn't have been the only kid to have that same basic idea back in high school chemistry class, could I? It always seemed really obvious...

[Zaggab]

I did an essay of alchemy in school a few years ago (under the subject "history of science" or something). It is much more than simply the mostly hilariuosly incorrect precursor to chemistry - it has a lot of very interesting (and totally crazy) philosophy attached to it. For example, it is closely connected to astrology, gnosticism and so on.

Plus, just saying "alchemy" doesn't really say that much. Alchemy was practised more or less extensively between like 100 AD to the 18th century all over Europe and the Middle East, and it has it's roots in ancient Egypt, Babylon and ancient Greece. There were several different directions within alchemy, like "chemical" alchemy (the most direct precursor to modern chemistry), and spiritual alchemy (which, according to my source, probably was the largest direction).

Alchemy is perfect to use in a fantasy world because it magical connection and philosophical mumbo-jumbo.

[Amiel]

Don't be silly. Don't you know anything about basic biology? They lay golden eggs. Sheesh.

Actually, no. They lay regular eggs. They poop golden ones. It's an entirely different system; it's what happens when you're not regular.

[Serpentine]

Turns out you can turn lead into gold, at least in theory, and you can definitely turn mercury into gold. I couldn't have been the only kid to have that same basic idea back in high school chemistry class, could I? It always seemed really obvious...I remember learning about that. But it would cost a ridiculously large amount of money, for a ludicrously small amount of gold.

edit@^: A popular misconception, perpetuated in a manner similar to the myth that violin strings were made of cat gut.

[Pheehelm]

Yeah. I know an econ grad student who likes to point out how bad an idea turning lead into gold would be. The alchemists may have formed the foundations of modern chemistry, but they just didn't get basic supply and demand. Plus, as DMM points out, there are much cooler things we're doing right now with atomic theory anyways.

[Amiel]

Not as improbable, and the misconception was actually proven to be relatively accurate.

Catgut may be an abbreviation of cattlegut. Intenstines that were once used included; sheep, goat, hog, horse, mule, cow, pig or donkey.
Of course, "catgut" may have been perpetuated to keep the secrets of the strings safe. Also, the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of the Middle Ages may have produced strings from cat's guts; it's just that it may not have been documented due to the associated taboo. It's certainly probable cats actually were used.

The preparation of it actually did use alchemical techniques, and sophisticated ones at that; it was dipped and them immersed in alkaline lye, then subjected to the burning fumes of sulfur.

[Zanaril]

Get some chemicals, play around with them.

You know you're a true alchemist when you blow yourself up. For science alchemy!

[faerwain]

Besides Newton, the first name that came to my (admittingly clueless in that topic) mind was Paracelsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus). Info about his work should be comparatively easy to find, in fact the linked wikipedia article has a link to Google books where you can browse an english translation of his writings.

I found a "Research group Alchemy" with a lot of downloadable essays, but it's completely in German, don't know if you speak it.

[Starshade]

A good example of an real alchemical text is Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz. linky (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/chymwed1.html)
The problem is its old, barely readable and understandable, and requires tons of esoteric study to understand.

Its also the foundation to rosicrusianism, to some degree, and influenced/es diverse western esoteric traditions, and ritual magical traditions. I think alchemy was mentioned in some ritual magic books ive read, so there could be something in recent books written about mysticism and occultism about it, tho i cannot suggest any personally.

PS: i too like modern physics and the anime Full Metal Alchemist. :smallbiggrin:

[2xMachina]

You know, it might be possible to change lead to gold through science.

Just add protons/neutrons to lead. It's not worth it though.

[Serpentine]

You know, it might be possible to change lead to gold through science.

Just add protons/neutrons to lead. It's not worth it though.That's what we were talking about above. Cost a whole lot of money, for not much gold.

[Eldan]

In seriousness, there's the early scientific chemistry, and then there's the mysticism. The mysticism, in a horribly simplified fashion, is largely based around making things change colors. If it turns white or gold when you do something to it, that's good- it's being 'purified'. If it turns black, that's bad, you're introducing Bad Mojo. Red.. I don't remember, exactly, but I think it was generally considered a positive step toward achieving white.

When you turn it red, you are absolutely great. You just unified yourself with god, or something. See the Magnum Opus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Work)

[raitalin]

As far as the parts of Alchemical philosophy that are applicable today only one sticks out to me, the principle of observation.

Alchemists believed that different alchemists would have different results based on the influence of their own observation. This may have simply been because of poor scientific techniques, but it turns out to actually be true in the field of Quantum Mechanics.

Both alchemy and quantum physics are areas where aspects of faith and science meet at a point where belief and observation become relevant.

This belief has become a central tenant in what I call Quantumism, or Quantum Mysticism, which essentially provides a pseudo-scientific background to the "Power of Positive Thinking" crowd.

[GrlumpTheElder]

That's what we were talking about above. Cost a whole lot of money, for not much gold.

Interstingly, it is easier to turn platinum into gold than any other metal.

Sounds like a plan, lets turn all our expensive metal into a less expensive metal!!!!

[golentan]

I still say alchemy is what happens when someone gets blitzed out of their mind and tries to explain chemistry and physics to the yokels before they have certain fundamental knowledge. Take the following speech, which might have been given at a party in ancient greece or europe:


"Okay, right, what you need to understand is stuff is made up of these pure forms, right? And you combine them to get what you see in the world, but you can also refine the pure stuff. And all these things come in four types. There's earth, and water, and air, and fire. When you get something to the state of fire, you can turn the pure form into something else. And it's easier when you have this one thing, to make it easier. Like, you could turn lead into gold. And that combination, not that one specifically, is how I stay alive so long, I use that the way you use eating."

Throw in some mythology and the equivalent of a game of telephone and you have alchemy. When what he meant to say (and would have said nowadays if not drunk) is:


"Okay, all matter is made of elements. They combine into complex molecules, but can also be reduced to atomic elemental forms. All these things come in four states: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. When something is plasmified, it is possible with pressure and energy to cause fusion. There is a complex catalyst which makes fusion possible at lower temperatures. For example, it's possible to process mercury, or even with enough time and effort lead, and create gold. I use fusion to power myself, and I'm sure you can figure out what that implies about my underlying form. That is how I was able to give that drunken speech millennia ago and still explain things here."

Just hypothetical, of course. But I'm sure if that hypothetical being were still floating around in the region, he'd hypothetically want to apologize for screwing up human history. Again.

[Mystic Muse]

I think you should simply pick up a book or two. there's only one thing you need.

it's called a library card. alternatively, the internet. I'm sure there are a lot of alchemy books that are in the public domain now due to their authors being Looooooooong dead.

[Prime32]

These pages might interest you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelemic_mysticism

[faerwain]

I still say alchemy is what happens when someone gets blitzed out of their mind and tries to explain chemistry and physics to the yokels before they have certain fundamental knowledge. Take the following speech, which might have been given at a party in ancient greece or europe:
(*snip*)

Throw in some mythology and the equivalent of a game of telephone and you have alchemy. When what he meant to say (and would have said nowadays if not drunk) is:
(Snip*)

Just hypothetical, of course. But I'm sure if that hypothetical being were still floating around in the region, he'd hypothetically want to apologize for screwing up human history. Again.

Of course your opinion and hypothetical speeches are formed on the ground that you already have these basic knowledges. But they still had to come from somewhere. If those guys had just stood there and waited to avoid "trying to explain before having fundamental knowledge" they would still be standing there, and the rest of human knowledge with them.
I'm not trying to defend alchemy as a legitimate science in modern sense, but the knowledge comes not automatically, science is built around trying and theorising. That's why a firm believer in alchemy, that Newton, came to build a very big part of the fundament of modern science, which you take as basic knowledge nowadays.

(Of course, he and others would probably really slap their heads today, but that's easy. Half a century ago, a video conference was popular in science fiction because it was soo futuristic, now I just finished one with my parents, courtesy of a 19,90 EUR flatrate. In another hundred years they might laugh about a lot which is now commonly accepted knowledge for us.)

[Eldan]

I still say alchemy is what happens when someone gets blitzed out of their mind and tries to explain chemistry and physics to the yokels before they have certain fundamental knowledge. Take the following speech, which might have been given at a party in ancient greece or europe:

Throw in some mythology and the equivalent of a game of telephone and you have alchemy. When what he meant to say (and would have said nowadays if not drunk) is:

Just hypothetical, of course. But I'm sure if that hypothetical being were still floating around in the region, he'd hypothetically want to apologize for screwing up human history. Again.

Damn you! 300 damn years trying to get cold fusion started using lead and gold, and you tell me it's because you can't hold your Retsina?

[Telonius]

To the OP: If you really want to get into the actual philosophy of it, you really need to begin by getting a thorough overview of the Kabbalah. Note that "thorough overview" does not mean book I picked up at the front rack of Barnes and Noble entitled "Secrets of the Sephiroths" or some other such nonsense. What you want is the boring book in the theology or Judaica section, with plenty of the actual ancient Hebrew text reproduced and translated.

Then, take at least three college level courses: one general history of Europe (including the Byzantines) during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, one art history course focusing on the early Renaissance, and one philosophy course. In the art course, pay special attention to the role of color and symbolism with regards to religious iconography.

After that, if you're not ready to die of boredom, start reading up on the Gnostics and the cults of Mithras and Orpheus.

After all that, you'll be equipped to actually understand what some of the actual alchemical philosophy and symbolism is getting at. I really don't intend to be snarky, or say that you aren't bright enough to figure it out on your own. There is just an absolute ocean of garbage that pretends to be the actual authority on mysticism, numerology, "mystery cults," and the like. (Much of the nonsense is based on forgeries created in the 1700s, but that's another story). Without a background somewhat similar to what I just described, there is no way you're going to be able to separate the real stuff from the fake.

[golentan]

Of course your opinion and hypothetical speeches are formed on the ground that you already have these basic knowledges. But they still had to come from somewhere. If those guys had just stood there and waited to avoid "trying to explain before having fundamental knowledge" they would still be standing there, and the rest of human knowledge with them.
I'm not trying to defend alchemy as a legitimate science in modern sense, but the knowledge comes not automatically, science is built around trying and theorising. That's why a firm believer in alchemy, that Newton, came to build a very big part of the fundament of modern science, which you take as basic knowledge nowadays.

(Of course, he and others would probably really slap their heads today, but that's easy. Half a century ago, a video conference was popular in science fiction because it was soo futuristic, now I just finished one with my parents, courtesy of a 19,90 EUR flatrate. In another hundred years they might laugh about a lot which is now commonly accepted knowledge for us.)

That's not what I meant. I meant that Alchemy, the philosophical basis pre the science and experimentation aspects, makes a lot of sense if you assume some alien whose species had already made those discoveries couldn't hold his ale and decided the monkeys might be interested in hearing some cool stuff. And that such a being might feel sorry for all the times he screwed up human history by trying to explain things while drunk. Or bored. Hypothetically.


Also, @Eldan: You spent 300 years on lead and gold for cold fusion? Wow... How'd you stay alive that long.

[Eldan]

Duh. I'm the Philosopher they named the stone after. True story.

[faerwain]

Then..I apologize and go back in my corner. :smallredface:

Oh, and I was only ranting to practice my English anyway. *whistle*

(Really misunderstood you there, then.)

[Ranger Mattos]

You know, it might be possible to change lead to gold through science.

Just add protons/neutrons to lead.

That is possible. The wonders of modern science.

[Pheehelm]

Well, actually you take away the protons/neutrons. Lead has more to start with.

In any case it's easier with mercury.

[Jokasti]

Just get some baking soda and vinegar and food coloring.
Bam. Alchemy.