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alisbin
2010-03-21, 09:04 AM
hey mates,
i gotta say i hate the whole XP cost spell thing, i get the intent behind it and i suppose it makes sense, but since spellcasters are hardly made any less broken by them i want to design a system that removes XP cost, but still makes casting those spells a strain. (note this is spells only not magic items, my campaign uses the pathfinder version of crafting where XP is not spent)

my idea;
for every 500 xp cost in a spell you have to take 1 temporary ability damage (min 1), treat this like ability damage from over overchannel, you can't be made immune to it and you can't use magic to fix it, it has to heal naturally. i'm also toying with require that at least half of this damage (again, min 1) has to be taken from your primary casting stat for that spell.

thoughts? suggestions? other workable methods?

Raging Gene Ray
2010-03-21, 09:09 AM
I think the Pathfinder version got rid of XP costs by substituting them with material components that cost 5 times as much in gp (Ex: Wish now requires a 25K diamond instead of 5K XP)

I like the idea of ability damage as a spell component. You seem to have it balanced alright. Would you consider a way (homebrew feat? homebrew PrC?) to use ability damage to substitute for material components?

alisbin
2010-03-21, 09:20 AM
i suppose you could, i dunno how that PrC would shape up though and i think a feat tree would be a little odd seeing theres an epic feat for that (and totally makes the pathfinder version broken, no cost wishes anyone?). maybe some sort of body fuel PrC that eventually can use their own stat points to cast metamagic?

yeah i know pathfinder added more gold costs, the thing about gold costs is that they don't really make the PCs consider whether to cast or not. once you get to the levels of XP cost spells your WBL is so high that its not really a big deal, ability damage that can't be healed without rest and time is way more of a worry AND keeps the feel of "well this is a tough spell, i'm going to have to fuel it with my own essence as well as arcane/divine/psionic power".

Mastikator
2010-03-21, 09:26 AM
I like the idea, but I think it could be optional. You decide whether to take ability damage or pay XP or pay 5x gp worth material component when preparing (or casting if spontaneous).
But I think it should cost a feat.

Vangor
2010-03-21, 09:44 AM
I prefer the XP cost simply as being something which is gone forever but can be made back up. Ability damage hinders you for the duration but is otherwise ignorable. A good system if you want to further encourage the use of XP spells without making them slightly more costly than spells with expensive components, but I always felt the XP cost spells are those you really need to have a purpose casting, in which case for ability damage I'll just take a rest for a short while for this to recover.

alisbin
2010-03-21, 09:49 AM
not that short a rest vangor, i don't allow 1 day=1 round plane genesis effects in my campaigns so if you cast a wish thats gonna mean you have to take 10 of ability burn, 5 of which will have to be in your primary casting stat. thats 5 days recovery with reduced spell casting and DCs for one spell. also, i'm in no way shy of giving my players time constrained plots, if they rest thats 8 more hours that the villian will be using to continue his/her evil plot.
and as far as XP being something spent and gone, yeah, thats true, but i don't like my players to be far apart XP wise, it makes it alot harder for me to judge what monsters to put against and my campaigns tend to be the high XP high risk type so getting XP is not as much of a deal anyway.

deuxhero
2010-03-21, 09:50 AM
There is already a system to spend 5 times as much gold to get rid of XP costs.

Ernir
2010-03-21, 01:40 PM
my idea;
for every 500 xp cost in a spell you have to take 1 temporary ability damage (min 1), treat this like ability damage from over overchannel, you can't be made immune to it and you can't use magic to fix it, it has to heal naturally. i'm also toying with require that at least half of this damage (again, min 1) has to be taken from your primary casting stat for that spell.

There already exists a name for that kind of ability damage, it's called Ability Burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn). :smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2010-03-21, 01:44 PM
hey mates,
i gotta say i hate the whole XP cost spell thing, i get the intent behind it and i suppose it makes sense, but since spellcasters are hardly made any less broken by them i want to design a system that removes XP cost, but still makes casting those spells a strain. (note this is spells only not magic items, my campaign uses the pathfinder version of crafting where XP is not spent)

my idea;
for every 500 xp cost in a spell you have to take 1 temporary ability damage (min 1), treat this like ability damage from over overchannel, you can't be made immune to it and you can't use magic to fix it, it has to heal naturally. i'm also toying with require that at least half of this damage (again, min 1) has to be taken from your primary casting stat for that spell.

thoughts? suggestions? other workable methods?

Mostly works, but you do have some problems:
1) You'll need to update the bit in Wish about increasing attributes - as nobody will be able to cast five Wishes in rapid succession as the rules kinda specify need to happen (10 ability burn each... good luck with that).
2) You'll need to do something about item crafting, as well (especially things like Scrolls of Wish, Rings of Three Wishes, et cetera, that have a very high XP cost).

alisbin
2010-03-21, 02:05 PM
1: sure i have no problem with making wishes for enhancements stack on each other over time. that they DON'T stack unless in immediate succession always seemed odd.
2: i remove XP costs from item creation, if you have to cast a spell with an XP cost to make the item then you still take ability burn upon finishing the item. ring of 3 wishes only requires 1 wish spell if i remember right, so, for a huge gold cost, you've saved yourself some ability burn.

Radar
2010-03-21, 02:17 PM
Mostly works, but you do have some problems:
1) You'll need to update the bit in Wish about increasing attributes - as nobody will be able to cast five Wishes in rapid succession as the rules kinda specify need to happen (10 ability burn each... good luck with that).
2) You'll need to do something about item crafting, as well (especially things like Scrolls of Wish, Rings of Three Wishes, et cetera, that have a very high XP cost).
1) Multiple casters - who said, it should be easy, to get a permanent +5 to a stat?
2) The same as the above - powerful items should be difficult to create. Forcing wizards to cooperate on a bigger project might be interesting as well.

pffh
2010-03-21, 02:22 PM
I've been toying with an idea for removing the xp cost. For every x amount of xp that would take to cast the spell you lower you maximum age by z% (you don't age just your maximum age is lower)
So very powerful spells that require a lot of xp to cast would drain large chunks of your life force.

Radar
2010-03-21, 02:26 PM
I've been toying with an idea for removing the xp cost. For every x amount of xp that would take to cast the spell you lower you maximum age by z% (you don't age just your maximum age is lower)
So very powerful spells that require a lot of xp to cast would drain large chunks of your life force.
Until all the wizards PAO into Elans or something like that.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-21, 02:27 PM
I've been toying with an idea for removing the xp cost. For every x amount of xp that would take to cast the spell you lower you maximum age by z% (you don't age just your maximum age is lower)
So very powerful spells that require a lot of xp to cast would drain large chunks of your life force.
Race: Elan. Maximum Age: N/A. What's 1/2 of unlimited?

Also: Most players won't care, as in most campaigns, the timeline doesn't last long enough for it to matter.

Koury
2010-03-21, 02:36 PM
I've been toying with an idea for removing the xp cost. For every x amount of xp that would take to cast the spell you lower you maximum age by z% (you don't age just your maximum age is lower)
So very powerful spells that require a lot of xp to cast would drain large chunks of your life force.

I wish to live longer?

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 02:53 PM
This is an interesting idea. For balance, you should look at Sanctified Spells from the Book of Exalted Deeds as a point of reference. They had (normal) ability damage as a component that came due at the end of the spell's duration. An example would be Aspect of the Divine: 3rd level spell, can be prepared by any class that prepares spells, grants one of four options, one of which is fly 100 feet per round (good) and another which creates a temporary +1 holy or +1 flaming sword. Duration is minutes per caster level. Ability cost: 1d4 points of Strength damage. So, for 1d4 points of strength damage, you get an improved Fly spell (of the same level) that has a few alternative interesting features.

Just something to keep in mind.

AmberVael
2010-03-21, 03:00 PM
I personally recommend the Experience Buffer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Experience_Buffer) variant.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 03:14 PM
I personally recommend the Experience Buffer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Experience_Buffer) variant.

This doesn't solve the problem, it simply delays it. This makes a person perfectly willing to cast wish in a one shot or campaign ending scenario, but does not remove the fact that at the end of the day the caster will lose experience points. An ability burn system would be far preferable.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-21, 04:21 PM
Froma metagame perspective (no, not that metagaming), I think 3.5 arcanists have XP costs built into spells and item creation because back in the older editions. it took them a lot longer to actually level up. Nowadays, when everyone reaches the same level at the same amount of XP, it's kind of a holdover to prevent casters from getting UNLIMITED POWAH faster than the other PCs are gaining MODERATE POWAH.

I could be wrong, though.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 04:45 PM
How would creatures immune to aging and/or ability damage cast these spells, then? My necropolitan kobold psion would like to see you about manifesting a reality revision or five.

J.Gellert
2010-03-21, 05:36 PM
We've always ignored XP (and for that matter, even costly material component) costs for spells. It might be because my group got into D&D after (and because of) Baldur's Gate, and you didn't have that kind of thing there.

However, it must not be an uncommon thing to ignore... I wonder what percentage of players are doing it.

pffh
2010-03-21, 05:44 PM
Race: Elan. Maximum Age: N/A. What's 1/2 of unlimited?

Also: Most players won't care, as in most campaigns, the timeline doesn't last long enough for it to matter.

Well you're the DM so you decide what races exist in your setting. And the timeline doesn't matter when you are less then a year away from death (without knowing it since you have no way of knowing your own time of death).

alisbin
2010-03-21, 06:20 PM
@lycanthromancer
in my first post i said that it would an ability burn that you could not be immune to (your giving your "insert stat here" willingly). dunno about aging, i'm not all that keen on that idea.
i USED to ignore xp costs for spells, but i tended to really spam permanency, wishes, etc. i think that the ability burn is a good middle ground, you can totally recover from it (so casting a few xp spells during downtime is no big deal) BUT if you want to use it in a dangerous situation, PCs are going to think twice.
another thing that always pissed me off about xp cost spells (wish specifically) was that since you need at least 1 wish to kill the tarrasque there you're actually punishing the wizard for something HE HAS TO DO! totally not cool...
i know that the wish thing goes back to before wish had an xp cost, but in 3.5 i feel its stupid.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 06:23 PM
It's easier to off the tarrasque in other ways, such as by using plane shift after having knocked it unconscious to, say, the positive energy plane.

Darth Stabber
2010-03-21, 06:48 PM
When GMing I ignore them, and have had fairly friendly groups of players with a strong adherence to the implied social contract, so game balance takes care of itself in this instance. That being said, I am probably in the minority in this aspect. I also tend to give eschew material components as a free bonus feat, and Ignore all but the most expensive of costly components (raise dead still costs, but Identify is free). But again strong social contract.

Actually one group I played with was sooooo bad that I removed all xp and expensive components from spells and let prepared casters fill and cast unassigned slots as a full round action, and still rogue was the strongest party member (straight rogue 14lvls). It was a hack'n'slash to the extreme, but fun in it's own right. In fact the only reason the casters ever got any better was the fact that at 17 they got access to wish, and given the lack of expense in doing so, could wish up anything, which was checked by my ability to twist their poorly worded wishes.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-21, 07:28 PM
Well you're the DM so you decide what races exist in your setting. And the timeline doesn't matter when you are less then a year away from death (without knowing it since you have no way of knowing your own time of death).

Your maximum age is measured in decades or centuries, for most D&D races. If you're not aged when you start the campaign, knocking 60% off the top will STILL leave you fine and dandy at the end of most campaigns.

Even if it doesn't, there's the other metagame problem: When a character dies irretrievably, the player just shrugs and makes another character. Usually a level or two lower. A long-term lethal threat is not a balancing factor for most.

Eclipse
2010-03-21, 07:29 PM
I like making the conversion of 1 xp = 5 gp to replace xp with costly material components. This doesn't set anyone back on xp, and whoever benefits from the spell can put up the funds for the spell. The really costly spells will still have the mitigating factor of price, but people don't feel gipped from losing precious xp. It makes spells like wish go from never being used as a spell to being occasionally used as a spell.

That said, the ability burn proposed also sounds like a good idea if executed well. This is good if you want the penalty to hurt for a decent amount of time, but not make a permanent dent in the wealth or xp of those benefiting. I prefer the gp cost only because some effects, like wishes granting a +5 bonus, coming essentially free doesn't seem like a good idea to me. A costly material component means it still must be bought, but it can be bought with gold rather than xp. However, ability burn is still a good system as long as it dissuades players from casting those spells all the time. It all depends on how you play and how your group plays.

Dresil
2010-03-24, 11:57 PM
XP cost is the easiest to replace with the simple purchase of two helmets. Go out to your local woods, bang them together and pretend you are dinner. Proceed to fry anything that is stupid enough to get a meal out of a wizard.

Roc Ness
2010-03-25, 12:03 AM
I have an idea.

What if we make it that for each casting of a spell, you to make a concentration check vs. DC 10+2xSpell Level, where if you fail you sorta enter a mental fatigue which temporarily lowers all mental stats? And there is an increasing penalty on all metamagic past the first, and an increasing penalty for every spell already cast in a round?

Zeful
2010-03-25, 12:24 AM
hey mates,
i gotta say i hate the whole XP cost spell thing, i get the intent behind it and i suppose it makes sense, but since spellcasters are hardly made any less broken by them i want to design a system that removes XP cost, but still makes casting those spells a strain. (note this is spells only not magic items, my campaign uses the pathfinder version of crafting where XP is not spent)

my idea;
for every 500 xp cost in a spell you have to take 1 temporary ability damage (min 1), treat this like ability damage from over overchannel, you can't be made immune to it and you can't use magic to fix it, it has to heal naturally. i'm also toying with require that at least half of this damage (again, min 1) has to be taken from your primary casting stat for that spell.

thoughts? suggestions? other workable methods?

With the shenanigans in D&D: If it doesn't permanently lower the user's stats, the penalty will be removed in 1 round. Even Xp can be freely recovered from with the Thought Bottle.