[3.5] Spellthief questions

[Darastin]

Greetings!

I recently found myself playing a spellthief, but ran into some seemingly-not-so-trivial questions. Here goes...

Spellthief vs. (good) Cleric

If a spelthief attempts to steal a Cure X Wounds spell from a good cleric (or a neutral one who channels positive energy), what happens?

a) The spellthief gets a random spell, since the cleric (probably) does not have that spell prepared.

b) Since the cleric can cast that spell spontaneously, the spellthief gets it and the cleric loses the ability to spontaneously cast it for a minute. Since the cleric does not have slots for spontaneous casting, he must lose a prepared spell. Which leads to a...



Follow-up question:

If the answer to the question above is b), which spell does the cleric lose?

a) He chooses the spell himself.

b) The spellthief decides.

c) It is determined randomly.



Spellthief? You mean Spell-Robber, right?

Spellthief is a misnomer. He doesn't steal spells, he takes them by force - which is usually called robbery, not theft. That's fine for combat applications, but wouldn't it be great if a spellthief could literally steal those spells and other goodies?

With that in mind, would something like the following a good idea for a feat or skill trick?


Spell Pickpocket

Prerequisites:
Sleight of Hand X ranks; Steal Spell ability

Benefit:
You can use the Steal Spells ability (or similar abilities, including advanced abilities such as Steal Spell-Like Ability, Steal Energy Resistance and so on if you have them) with a Sleight of Hands check instead of a sneak attack. The feat does not provide these abilities, it only allows you to use them in a different manner. You can only use one of these abilities on a given Sleight of Hand check even if you could use several of them simultaneously with one attack.

The DC for the Sleight of Hands check is 15 + the corresponding caster level (for everything that is tied to a caster level) or 15 + the target's hit dice (for anything that is not). Otherwise, this works just as lifting an object. However, your victim's spot check to notice the attempt is not modified by external conditions.

If the victim does not immediately notice the theft, it will do so if it attempts to use the spell or ability (this does not use up its actions; it can decide to do something different instead) or after a certain amount of time has passed. You have a number of rounds equal to the difference between your Sleight of Hands check and the victim's Spot check before the theft is noticed. It does not take any check to notice the loss of an ability with obvious effects (e.g. an active Polymorph spell) and it usually clearly identifies you as the thief.

Sleight of Hand seems the obvious choice for the skill to be used, but i'm not sure about the DC and how many ranks it sould take as a prerequisite.

I also thought that a spell is something far more... say, intimate than a purse, so the theft should automatically be noticed sooner or later. However, I'm not entirely sure whether a Spot check is still appropriate as a counter-roll. Could be a Will Save instead.



Spellthief and Warlock:

A spellthief "borrows" Dark One's Own Luck from a warlock and casts it, giving him a +<CHA> luck bonus to one save. But does he use his own CHA bonus ot the warlock's?



Related Question (Dark One's Own Luck):

Does Dark One's Own Luck use the current CHA bonus or the CHA bonus at the time it was invoked?


Thanks in advance;
Darastin

[Private-Prinny]

Greetings!

I recently found myself playing a spellthief, but ran into some seemingly-not-so-trivial questions. Here goes...

Spellthief vs. (good) Cleric

If a spelthief attempts to steal a Cure X Wounds spell from a good cleric (or a neutral one who channels positive energy), what happens?

a) The spellthief gets a random spell, since the cleric (probably) does not have that spell prepared.

b) Since the cleric can cast that spell spontaneously, the spellthief gets it and the cleric loses the ability to spontaneously cast it for a minute. Since the cleric does not have slots for spontaneous casting, he must lose a prepared spell. Which leads to a...



Follow-up question:

If the answer to the question above is b), which spell does the cleric lose?

a) He chooses the spell himself.

b) The spellthief decides.

c) It is determined randomly.



Spellthief? You mean Spell-Robber, right?

Spellthief is a misnomer. He doesn't steal spells, he takes them by force - which is usually called robbery, not theft. That's fine for combat applications, but wouldn't it be great if a spellthief could literally steal those spells and other goodies?

With that in mind, would something like the following a good idea for a feat or skill trick?



Sleight of Hand seems the obvious choice for the skill to be used, but i'm not sure about the DC and how many ranks it sould take as a prerequisite.

I also thought that a spell is something far more... say, intimate than a purse, so the theft should automatically be noticed sooner or later. However, I'm not entirely sure whether a Spot check is still appropriate as a counter-roll. Could be a Will Save instead.



Spellthief and Warlock:

A spellthief "borrows" Dark One's Own Luck from a warlock and casts it, giving him a +<CHA> luck bonus to one save. But does he use his own CHA bonus ot the warlock's?



Related Question (Dark One's Own Luck):

Does Dark One's Own Luck use the current CHA bonus or the CHA bonus at the time it was invoked?


Thanks in advance;
Darastin

VS. Good Cleric: I would say that a prepared one would be taken first, or a randomly determined spell if they don't have it prepared.

VS. Warlock: I would say you use your own modifier at the time of invocation, but that's just me.

[BenTheJester]

Stealing Cure x wounds: If the cleric doesn't have it prepared, you can't steal it, so you just steal a random spell. It doesn't matter if he can spontaneously cast it or not.

Stealing Dark One's Luck: The Steal Spell-like Ability class features states that the SLA is casted as if the robbed character casted it, so you would use the warlock's charisma.

I really like your skill trick, although I'm not too sure about the DC. An opposed roll vs Concentration seems a better idea. The Concentration check should get a bonus equal to the spell level stolen.

An opposed Spot check to notice a spell has been stolen is a good idea. If the caster fails the check, he notices a spell is missing when he tries to cast it and/or when he tries to use his last spell slot of the spell level stolen(if he is a spontaneous caster).
A successful spot check doesn't prevent you from stealing the spell, it just means that the caster noticed that you stole a spell.

[Optimystik]

IIRC, Spellthieves can't steal SLAs, so Invocations are out.
An Ur-Priest can, though.

Vs. the cleric, a cleric is a prepared caster even if they cast some spells spontaneously. Therefore I think the "lose a prepared spell" effect would apply here, rather than the "lose a spell use" for spontaneous casters.

[BenTheJester]

IIRC, Spellthieves can't steal SLAs, so Invocations are out.


Yes they can, at 5th level they get the ability to steal SLA, with a maximum(equivalent) level of 1/3 their class levels.

The target can't use the SLA until the Spellthief casts it(or until 1 min elapses)

[Ernir]

IIRC, Spellthieves can't steal SLAs, so Invocations are out.
Stealing SLA's a separate class feature of the Spellthief's, gained at 5th level.

Vs. the cleric, a cleric is a prepared caster even if they cast some spells spontaneously. Therefore I think the "lose a prepared spell" effect would apply here, rather than the "lose a spell use" for spontaneous casters.
I agree.

[Darastin]

Stealing Dark One's Luck: The Steal Spell-like Ability class features states that the SLA is casted as if the robbed character casted it, so you would use the warlock's charisma.
Actually, it mentions only SR, Save DCs and so on. However, it seems to imply that the original caster determines how powerful the spell is, so any other characteristics should be derived from his stats, too.

On the other hand, this would extend short-term ability increases over 24 hours... so using the current CHA semms safer.


I really like your skill trick, although I'm not too sure about the DC. An opposed roll vs Concentration seems a better idea. The Concentration check should get a bonus equal to the spell level stolen.
Concentration... doesn't sound too bad, either. However, this would have the victim make two checks (one to oppose the theft, another one to notice it) - feels a little clumsy. And it might be a bit too difficult. After all, you can expect most casters to max out their Concentration skills. Spellthieves using Spell Pickpocket wil have maxed-out Sleight of Hands, too, but the spell level bonus will make it really hard to pull of. Stealing a 9th level spell will be nearly impossible... certainly more difficult than robbing it (which, given the defenses such a caster might have, is already quite a challenge).


or when he tries to use his last spell slot of the spell level stolen(if he is a spontaneous caster).
Ah, I forgot that case. Thanks!


A successful spot check doesn't prevent you from stealing the spell, it just means that the caster noticed that you stole a spell.
That's already included - it works like lifting an object, which a successful Spot check does not prevent either.


As for clerics... yeah, I feared it would turn out like that. However, not being able to steal or borrow such an archetypical spell just feels wrong, somehow...

Just my two Euro-cents;
Darastin

[Optimystik]

Yes they can, at 5th level they get the ability to steal SLA, with a maximum(equivalent) level of 1/3 their class levels.

The target can't use the SLA until the Spellthief casts it(or until 1 min elapses)

My mistake.


As for clerics... yeah, I feared it would turn out like that. However, not being able to steal or borrow such an archetypical spell just feels wrong, somehow...

You can steal cure/inflict spells just fine, if the cleric prepares them. Remember that evil clerics have to prepare them, because they can't spontaneously cast them; so just target evil clerics.

(Or druids/bards.)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I don't have the text on hand, but I think Spellthieves can declare themselves as the originator of a spell so they can actually use stolen Personal only spells.

Also, Spellthieves become much better in groups heavy on casters. Just make sure you plot plan before hand on which caster is "donating" which spells and for when. I've found that self buffs like Flame Whips (SpC), Divine Power, and Bite of the WereX work well to this end. Before hitting the local dungeon, just talk with everyone and ask them for these spells and start combat with your personal favorite.

The other general strategy is to do the same, but with Save or Lose/Suck/Die and battlefield control spells so that you're basically doubling the other caster's actions in a round.

[Optimystik]

The other general strategy is to do the same, but with Save or Lose/Suck/Die and battlefield control spells so that you're basically doubling the other caster's actions in a round.

If you're going to be casting battlefield control spells for the others, why not just be a Beguiler? You'll have control spells of your own, less MAD and you'll be a much better skillmonkey than a Spellthief.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you're going to be casting battlefield control spells for the others, why not just be a Beguiler? You'll have control spells of your own, less MAD and you'll be a much better skillmonkey than a Spellthief.

Well, the idea is to double up on their actions, which, admittedly a Beguiler could most likely due with his own slots, but the side benefit is to have the chance to also gain some extra "loot" from the fights as well, if only for an hour or so.

One trick I've seen work well on a Spellthief is actually taking the otherwise terrible luck feat that redirects attacks from allies to yourself so you can absorb spells while saving the BSF from some Will save or Lose.

So, yeah, most games Beguiler X> Spellthief X, but there do exist some options that a Spellthief can more easily emulate without wasting moneys than a Beguiler can. Of course, you could always go into Unseen Seer instead, but that's less Spellthief and more Skill/gish.

[unre9istered]

One problem with the skill trick is that for some reason Sleight of Hand is crossclass for Spellthieves. For some reason they have Speak Language instead (I'm fairly sure this is a mistake that never received an errata).

[Optimystik]

Well, the idea is to double up on their actions, which, admittedly a Beguiler could most likely due with his own slots, but the side benefit is to have the chance to also gain some extra "loot" from the fights as well, if only for an hour or so.

One trick I've seen work well on a Spellthief is actually taking the otherwise terrible luck feat that redirects attacks from allies to yourself so you can absorb spells while saving the BSF from some Will save or Lose.

So, yeah, most games Beguiler X> Spellthief X, but there do exist some options that a Spellthief can more easily emulate without wasting moneys than a Beguiler can. Of course, you could always go into Unseen Seer instead, but that's less Spellthief and more Skill/gish.

I think you're misunderstanding me - I'm not saying a Beguiler can do everything a Spellthief can do at all. I'm just saying your Spellthief shouldn't waste time on battlefield control. If that's all he's going to do then a Beguiler is a much better choice.

Absorbing spells for allies (though unre9istered's problem pops up here) and stealing SLAs are both very useful functions. By all means do that. But you should be borrowing buffs from your allies, not control; especially since (a) Divine spells don't have very many control spells, and having access to divine spells is one of the more useful aspects of being a spellthief; and (b) you're effectively limited to spells without a save, because it's not likely that your Cha will be particularly high since you also need decent Int, Dex, and Con.


One problem with the skill trick is that for some reason Sleight of Hand is crossclass for Spellthieves. For some reason they have Speak Language instead (I'm fairly sure this is a mistake that never received an errata).

Ugh, I just noticed that. :smallsigh:

[Darastin]

I think you're misunderstanding me - I'm not saying a Beguiler can do everything a Spellthief can do at all. I'm just saying your Spellthief shouldn't waste time on battlefield control. If that's all he's going to do then a Beguiler is a much better choice.
To be fair, it is an option that may be worth taking under the right circumstances. Otherwise, I think I'd best hunt enemy spellcasters and take their spells instead. Not many things are as satisfying as beating up an evil cleric with his own Divine Power :smallsmile: Stealing or at least suppressing some of their already active defenses sounds promising, too.


But you should be borrowing buffs from your allies
That's my plan; especially if I intend to go after spellcasters. Once they realize what I can do, I expect to draw a lot of fire.


you're effectively limited to spells without a save, because it's not likely that your Cha will be particularly high
I won't need CHA for the DC of stolen spells - spellthieves use the original caster's save DC and caster level for those.


Ugh, I just noticed that. :smallsigh:
Wait, that can't be... *reads*... :smallannoyed:
Great, so why is the class named spellthief again if they can't steal anything at all?

Well, maybe I can get the DM to houserule this.

Just my two Euro-cents;
Darastin

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I think you're misunderstanding me - I'm not saying a Beguiler can do everything a Spellthief can do at all. I'm just saying your Spellthief shouldn't waste time on battlefield control. If that's all he's going to do then a Beguiler is a much better choice.

Absorbing spells for allies (though unre9istered's problem pops up here) and stealing SLAs are both very useful functions. By all means do that. But you should be borrowing buffs from your allies, not control; especially since (a) Divine spells don't have very many control spells, and having access to divine spells is one of the more useful aspects of being a spellthief; and (b) you're effectively limited to spells without a save, because it's not likely that your Cha will be particularly high since you also need decent Int, Dex, and Con.

Ah, okay. I did misunderstand earlier. It certainly would be better for the Spellthief to use buffs, if he's in the habit of using his allies' spells. Although, and I may be misremembering here, on the bold section, I thought Spellthieves calculated saves and the like as if it was the caster, as I've got vaguely recalling our party Spellthief asking me to bluff against some demons he summoned from one of my spells one day. Of course, he could have been in error, too.