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Boci
2010-03-21, 01:39 PM
I was just making a sample 20th level wizard PC and I realized I am not that confident at optimizing their gear. Here is what I came up with:

Armour and weapons:
+4 mithril feycraft breastplate of twilight (29,700gp) (104,700gp with heavy fortification) – ACP: 0, ASF: 0%
+1 dagger of warning with wand slot (8,402gp) - +5 insight to initiative, can store wand
+1 eager dagger with wand slot (8,402gp) - +2 on damage rolls in surprise and 1st round of combat, +2 to initiative, can store wand

Consumables:
Wand of celerity – 50 charges (21,000gp)
Wand of protection from evil – 50 charges (750gp)

States boosters:
Tome of clear thought: +5 (137,000gp)
Crown of intelligence +6 (36,000gp)
Gloves of dexterity +6 (36,000gp)

All the rest:

Cloak of resistance +5 (25,000gp)

Ring of arcane might (20,000gp) +1 caster level
Ring of evasion (25,000gp) – Gain evasion

Third eye of concealment (120,000gp) – protects from all devices, spells, or powers that detect, influence, or read emotons or thoughts, as well as those with mind-affecting or scrying descriptors.

Necklace of adaption (9,000gp) – Breath freely anywhere, immune to gases and inhaled poisons

Dispelling cord (1,000gp) – 5/day, swift action, gain +2 on next dispel attempt

Vanguard treads (3,100gp) – ignore difficult and slippery terrain, +8 to avoid being bullrushed, +4 to avoid being moved in a grapple

Belt of battle (12,000gp) +2 competence to initiative, swap swift action for move, standard or full round action, 3 charges

Orange ion stone (30,000gp) - +1 caster level

Boccob’s blessed book (12,500gp) – 1,000 pages for spells, fill at no cost
2 blank spell books (30gp)

Total: 524,884gp

That then leaves me with 235,116gp to fill up and ward my three spell books (1 main, 1 backup and 1 fake).


So, what do you think? Have I made a mistake or missed anything obvious?

Edit: Correcting maths.

tahu88810
2010-03-21, 01:49 PM
Wizards do not need gear, as they have so many nice spells.
Think of spells as, like, the actual pizza...and gear is just the optional toppings. You can't really go wrong, no matter what.

mostlyharmful
2010-03-21, 01:53 PM
Does the DM figure in half costs for self-crafted equipment?

Boci
2010-03-21, 01:53 PM
Wizards do not need gear, as they have so many nice spells.
Think of spells as, like, the actual pizza...and gear is just the optional toppings. You can't really go wrong, no matter what.

True, but its nice to make the best of your topping.


Does the DM figure in half costs for self-crafted equipment?

Its a hypothetical PCs, so no, I haven't accounted for that.

tahu88810
2010-03-21, 01:56 PM
True, but its nice to make the best of your topping.

Of course.

Anways, I've noticed two things: You don't really need to waste money on those +1CL items, since most spells max out their caster level bonuses when you hit level 20 casting. Second, you could probably find a better use for your money than daggers (unless it makes sense from a roleplaying perspective or what-have-you).
Might I suggest that you figure out what spells you'll be using a lot and get a few wands, scrolls, or staves that allow you to use those particular spells? It will allow you to prepare said spells less often, allowing you to prepare a wider variety of spells.

2xMachina
2010-03-21, 01:59 PM
The daggers provide pretty good +Ini though

tahu88810
2010-03-21, 02:07 PM
There are probably better ways to get that initiative bonus, though.

Boci
2010-03-21, 02:16 PM
Of course.

Anways, I've noticed two things: You don't really need to waste money on those +1CL items, since most spells max out their caster level bonuses when you hit level 20 casting.

Okay. What would be a good replacement for the ring? One of counter spelling to hold greater dispel magic?


Second, you could probably find a better use for your money than daggers (unless it makes sense from a roleplaying perspective or what-have-you).

16,804gp for effectivly a +7 insight bonus to initiative whilst retaining the ability to hold to wands sounds pretty good to me when you have 760k.


Might I suggest that you figure out what spells you'll be using a lot and get a few wands, scrolls, or staves that allow you to use those particular spells? It will allow you to prepare said spells less often, allowing you to prepare a wider variety of spells.

Fair point, but this is more a general exercise at what to spend gold on, so I don't have anything that concrete for this character.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 02:21 PM
I don't know if armor is really worth bothering with. Same with shield. Third Eye Concealment; why not just cast Mind Blank? Honestly, replicating stuff spells can do is just waste.

Items I'd definitely include:
Ring of Enduring Arcana [CM]
Ring of Spell-Battle [MiC]
Hand of Glory (extra Ring-slot)

I'd also keep caster level buffs and Beads of Karma from Strand of Prayer Beads (eminently UMDable). CL is very important against dispels and as long as your spells remain undispelled, you're practically immortal so that's absolutely vital.

Further, Ring of Spell-Battle can identify just about anything and misdirect Disjunction itself! Honestly, that alone means you should never leave home without one. Ring of Freedom of Movement is unnecessary with Heart of Water, but Ring of Evasion feels quite poor too as it's easy enough between various Contingencies and Contingent Energy Resistances and countermagic (Battlemagic Perception) and Energy Immunities and Wards and such to negate area effect damage entirely. I'd definitely bother getting Con-boost though; HP is never amiss and neither are Fort-saves. Death Ward (through Soulfire [BoED armor ability] or such) may also be worthwhile.


Other than that, Metamagic Rods! They're just kickass. Especially one Greater Quicken, maybe a normal Chain (for e.g. Dispels and such), some Extends and such would help a ****ton. Maybe Maximize or Empower too. But yeah. Definitely more of these.

Also, materials for some True Seeings and Foci for Contingencies and Shapechanges and such. And Pearls of Power.

Myou
2010-03-21, 02:23 PM
Of course.

Anways, I've noticed two things: You don't really need to waste money on those +1CL items, since most spells max out their caster level bonuses when you hit level 20 casting. Second, you could probably find a better use for your money than daggers (unless it makes sense from a roleplaying perspective or what-have-you).
Might I suggest that you figure out what spells you'll be using a lot and get a few wands, scrolls, or staves that allow you to use those particular spells? It will allow you to prepare said spells less often, allowing you to prepare a wider variety of spells.

That's not true. Many spells at those levels benefit from greater caster level, and it also protects against dispelling - and makes you better at it yourself.
You want your caster level as high as possible.

Radar
2010-03-21, 02:23 PM
I recently stumbled upon a link to this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0) thread. Loads of good ideas there and reasonably priced as well.

And yes, a Ring of Counterspelling might be a good idea.

deuxhero
2010-03-21, 02:28 PM
Either cast an (extended?) greater mage armor, or grab a dirt cheep (5100) mithiral twilight chain shirt for armor.

PersonMan
2010-03-21, 02:29 PM
You'll probably want a Ring of Wizardry to replace your Ring of Arcane Might. For 100k you can double your 4th level spells which, if you're using the SpC, you can use for Orbs to get some blasting capability.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 02:31 PM
You'll probably want a Ring of Wizardry to replace your Ring of Arcane Might. For 100k you can double your 4th level spells which, if you're using the SpC, you can use for Orbs to get some blasting capability.

Pearl of Power is generally much more economic, and doesn't take one of the absolute key item slots. Also, level 4 slots tend to be plentiful by level 20. You'll probably have +3 just from Int alone.

Oh yeah, Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone is nice; you don't need to breathe. Also, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll x2, Artificer's Monocle and Heward's Handy Haversack as obvious. Also, lots of Wands and Scrolls to cover fringe uses you might not have spells prepared for (Divinations in particular are great Scrollables) along with few heavyweights in case your own high level slots have run out; e.g. Time Stop, Maw of Chaos or Gate is a really nice plan 2.

deuxhero
2010-03-21, 02:32 PM
6 (4+2 from 30 int) 4th level pearl of power is cheeper than a ring of wizardry 4th level

edit:ninjaed.

sofawall
2010-03-21, 02:39 PM
There are probably better ways to get that initiative bonus, though.

Warning and eager are both very useful enchantments.

I believe one of them gives an untyped bonus to init, though, so add that to both of them..

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 02:45 PM
If I were to ever actually make a high-level wizard, I'd always have a few rods of absorption (at least one full and one empty, one in each hand). This both protects you from spells AND turns you into a better sorcerer than a sorcerer.

Optimystik
2010-03-21, 02:50 PM
That's not true. Many spells at those levels benefit from greater caster level, and it also protects against dispelling - and makes you better at it yourself.
You want your caster level as high as possible.

This. Sure your fireball won't get any hotter with a higher CL, but it'll also be harder to counterspell or resist by a monk/critter with SR.

Far more important are your buffs, however (aka the only thing standing between you and being a grease stain) and you'd be surprised how many monsters can dispel at will.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-21, 02:53 PM
Burning a level on XP and using some item creation optimization can ramp up your power level significantly. You can far more than triple your WBL by doing so.

And yes, you can get more powerful than a standard level 20 wizard (though by that point it's just a matter of degree).

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 03:03 PM
I believe the pricing on those daggers is wrong.

Firstly, they're masterwork weapons, so they'd be 302 gp before enhancement. Secondly, if they're +1 items with a +1 effective bonus, they'd be 8,302 gp, not 4,302 gp. You've priced them like armor. Since they're daggers (weapons), they'd both be 8,302 gp.

[1+1 = 2 squared = 4 times 2 for weapons = 8000 for the magic]

I'm not entirely familiar with those enchantments. If they're just +2000go, I'd be wrong (although not about the masterwork cost).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-21, 03:17 PM
First, always get a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon. It takes a Limited Wish to embed, which costs either 300 xp or 2410 gp from an NPC spellcaster. The total price of +1 armor and a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification is exactly equal to the price of +1 Heavy Fortification armor, so if you're going to get anything higher than +1 on your armor you'll save a lot of money by getting the gemstone. Plus it cannot be stolen or unequipped, and it could even be considered to be out of line of effect for disjunctions.

Cast Superior Resistance every day, +6 to saving throws for a 6th level spell slot. Energy Immunity is another good spell to cast daily, possibly just cast it (Rod of) Extended twice/day for constant immunity to four energy types.

Circlet of Rapid Casting is good, you can add +Int for the same price as a standalone item as per MIC. Metamagic Rods are amazing, particularly Quicken, Chain, and Extend. If the character is an elf or otherwise proficient with bows get a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows (some DMs may not allow those) with spells like Maximized Shivering Touch, Maximized Vampiric Touch, Maximized Sound Lance, etc.

Don't forget about the magic item sets in MIC, particularly the Raiment of the Four and the Seven Veils. MIC also has the Vest of the Archmagi, though many of its benefits may be redundant. The Cowl of Warding in Magic of Faerun is a must-have if it's available, it grants continual Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement, as well as Spell Turning with a daily limit to how many spell levels it can affect.

Boci
2010-03-21, 03:17 PM
Okay, so thing I should drop:
Third eye, ring of evasion, cloak of resistence (just cast greater resistence every day)

Things I missed:
Ring of Enduring Arcana [CM]
Ring of Spell-Battle [MiC]
Hand of Glory (extra Ring-slot)
Possibly ring of counterspelling

Gemstone of Heavy Fortification

Cowl of Warding

Metamagic rods
Rod of absortion

Pearls of Power
Beads of karma

Heward's Fortifying Bedroll
Artificer's Monocle
Heward's Handy Haversack

So, how much would you recommend a wizard spend on spellbooks?


I believe the pricing on those daggers is wrong.

Firstly, they're masterwork weapons, so they'd be 302 gp before enhancement. Secondly, if they're +1 items with a +1 effective bonus, they'd be 8,302 gp, not 4,302 gp. You've priced them like armor. Since they're daggers (weapons), they'd both be 8,302 gp.

[1+1 = 2 squared = 4 times 2 for weapons = 8000 for the magic]

I'm not entirely familiar with those enchantments. If they're just +2000go, I'd be wrong (although not about the masterwork cost).

Right you are. My mistake.


Warning and eager are both very useful enchantments.

I believe one of them gives an untyped bonus to init, though, so add that to both of them..

Eager is untype, so wouldn't it not stake with itself?


If I were to ever actually make a high-level wizard, I'd always have a few rods of absorption (at least one full and one empty, one in each hand). This both protects you from spells AND turns you into a better sorcerer than a sorcerer.

Should a rod of absorption be held in favour of an eager dagger + wand?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-21, 03:30 PM
You can put weapon abilities on armor spikes, too.

You can fill up your spellbook for free with a little RP. Go to an individual/organization which charges a fee for copying spells, typically 50 gp per spell level. Study a spell, make the Spellcraft check, but pretend you didn't understand it, blaming the poor quality of the copy you read. Don't put it into your spellbook and refuse to pay their fee. After you leave cast Secret Page to turn a 1st level spell in one of your books into that spell, and you can copy it from there into your Blessed Book.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 03:39 PM
Untyped bonuses tend to stack with themselves, until the DM gets tired of it (ie, yes you could have 50 +1 eager shurikens, but that might be nerfed rather quickly).

Additionally, for the daggers I forgot to add in the 150 gp cost of the wand sheath, which would, I believe, boost both costs to 8,452 gp. Sorry I missed it.

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 03:44 PM
Untyped bonuses tend to stack with themselves, until the DM gets tired of it (ie, yes you could have 50 +1 eager shurikens, but that might be nerfed rather quickly).

Untyped bonuses stack with everything but themselves. 50 Eager Shurikens gives you the exact same bonus as 1.

JohnnyCancer
2010-03-21, 03:45 PM
If you've got scratch to spare, perhaps a Tomebound Eye of Boccob would be a nice addition to your main spellbook. Then there's the Belt of Magnificence which there's likely no reason not to have as long as you've got the money, +6 enhancement to all your stats for 200K.

If you want to squeeze the most out of the Boccob's Blessed Book, dip into Geometer long enough for the Book of Geometry ability: all spells take one page. You could fill your book with a thousand spells of any level for no additional gold. :smalltongue:

Bibliomancer
2010-03-21, 03:48 PM
Untyped bonuses stack with everything but themselves. 50 Eager Shurikens gives you the exact same bonus as 1.

PHB Page 305:


bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonusof that type applies. Bonuses that don't have a specific type always stack with all bonuses
(Emphasis mine).

That's a logical rule, but it doesn't seem to agree with the PHB. Does the DMG clarification contradict the above?

Eldariel
2010-03-21, 04:11 PM
PHB Page 305:

(Emphasis mine).

That's a logical rule, but it doesn't seem to agree with the PHB. Does the DMG clarification contradict the above?

The "Untyped"-clause you read just means it stacks with every type of bonus, even other Untyped bonuses.

From "The Basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm)" on the SRD:


Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Apparently PHB page 171 touches upon the matter.

JaronK
2010-03-21, 04:24 PM
Are you aware of the "Warning" enchantment? It gives +5 initiative. I'm a big fan of Eager +1 Armor Spikes of Warning... they're pretty cheap for +7 initiative, and they don't even take a hand. You can put them on some kind of armor with no spell failure (such as a Thistledown Padded Feycraft Mithral Chain Shirt). At level 20, it's cheap and worth it.

Also consider getting an Eveloping Pit. It can store a lot of stuff, and you can build things inside it such as small fortifications. This is a great way to ensure you can't get interupted while meditating for spells, and you can store small undead forces there too.

JaronK

Boci
2010-03-21, 04:29 PM
Are you aware of the "Warning" enchantment?

The one I have in my opening post? Yes it rings a bell. :smallbiggrin:


It gives +5 initiative. I'm a big fan of Eager +1 Armor Spikes of Warning... they're pretty cheap for +7 initiative, and they don't even take a hand. You can put them on some kind of armor with no spell failure (such as a Thistledown Padded Feycraft Mithral Chain Shirt). At level 20, it's cheap and worth it.

This is a better way to use tp use it.


Also consider getting an Eveloping Pit. It can store a lot of stuff, and you can build things inside it such as small fortifications. This is a great way to ensure you can't get interupted while meditating for spells, and you can store small undead forces there too.

JaronK


Portable fortress and army? Cool.

Harperfan7
2010-03-22, 02:07 AM
What is feycrafted and where does it come from?

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 06:17 AM
What is feycrafted and where does it come from?

Feycraft is an Item Template from DMGII and basically makes stuff lighter (so less ACP/ASF/etc.). As the name suggests, it's for items made by the fey.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-22, 06:25 AM
I'd prefer a Ring of Spell-Battle (MIC) over a ring of evasion, personally. Lets you identify casting within 60 feet, with LoE, even if you normally wouldn't (such as with still/silent spells). In addition, it lets you retarget one spell per day that you identify in that manner, which is amazingly strong.

mostlyharmful
2010-03-22, 03:24 PM
rods of extend are great stuff, you get a high enough boost on your CL and you'll have the hour buffs up for a couple of days (extra slots for adventuring days) and the 10min ones up for the whole adventuring day without worrying about it and they're crazy cheap.

The items from The tome of battle that give you manuvers are also good for picking up a trick or two, especially the one's that run off your Concentration score which all wizards max

Anklet of translocation for free hammer time (or at least really really cheap hammer time)

Plus make sure if you can to get the rules for adding boring effects to more interesting stuff from the Magic Item Compendium if you can otherwise you just eat up body slots on the unarguably essential stuff and get nothing to play around with.

Oh, and a fortifying bedroll is always useful if your DM likes grinds.

ericgrau
2010-03-22, 03:48 PM
I see a distinct lack of a staff. More spells are always awesome-sauce, and at 50 charges it could last multiple levels, if not practically forever. Staffs use your own caster level and save DC, unless the staff's is higher. So it really is more spells. If you don't like the premade staffs, ask your DM about a custom one. See the magic item creation guidelines for more information.

And, agreed, missing metamagic rods is another big hole. Besides that I'd get a lot of low level scrolls and wands for utility spells, to always be prepared. Note that these use the item's caster level and save DC, so best to stick to utility on these.

Boosting your touch AC might be nice too, if you can without sacrificing other important items. While many monsters may have 10 AC or less, you don't have to be the same. A 20th level enemy wizard usually only has 10 + dex AB. So every point of touch AC is a 5% miss chance. And touch AC doesn't prevent you from also getting other spell-based defenses as well, only those requiring item slots.

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 03:55 PM
Note that these use the item's caster level and save DC, so best to stick to utility on these.

They're also quite good for no-save offense (Ray of Exhaustion, Magic Missile (CL9), etc.); just use them only when you know the target does not have SR.

Thrawn183
2010-03-22, 06:58 PM
How has no one suggested the single most important item? Ring of Freedom of Movement of course.

Also, get a buckler/shield with no arcane spellfailure chance, enchant it so it's animated (doesn't use hands or anything), then add in a few enhancements on the cheap. Something like Soulfire from BoED.

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 06:59 PM
How has no one suggested the single most important item? Ring of Freedom of Movement of course.

Heart of Water has that covered. It's a Wizard we're talking about, after all. Do what you can with spells and spend items to enhance your spells rather than do stuff you don't need 'em for.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 07:22 PM
I see a distinct lack of a staff. More spells are always awesome-sauce, and at 50 charges it could last multiple levels, if not practically forever. Staffs use your own caster level and save DC, unless the staff's is higher. So it really is more spells. If you don't like the premade staffs, ask your DM about a custom one. See the magic item creation guidelines for more information.

you pretty much have to, the premade staffs all suck hardcore...
firstly, an ideal staff has only one spell (becuase all spells drain the same 50 charges; and adding each spell costs money), second... the ideal staff does NOT have all the "thematic" but useless spells. A typical premade staff has half a dozen useless spells and one useful spell. Waste of good money and XP...

but yes, if your DM allows you to craft custom staffs then they are way better then wands or scrolls for most purposes... just tuck them away in your HHH