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Evard
2010-03-21, 03:40 PM
Is there a such spell already in existence? Basically the same as shadow conjuration just used for transmutation school, I ask because if there is I won't have to try and homebrew a spell for it.

Lapak
2010-03-21, 03:46 PM
Shadow Conjuration I get - you're using shadowstuff to replicate what you'd really be creating.

Shadow Evocation I get - you're using shadowstuff to replicate the forces you'd normally be invoking.

But how you do Shadow-Polymorph something? :smalleek:

Ecks Dee
2010-03-21, 03:58 PM
Shadow Conjuration I get - you're using shadowstuff to replicate what you'd really be creating.

Shadow Evocation I get - you're using shadowstuff to replicate the forces you'd normally be invoking.

But how you do Shadow-Polymorph something? :smalleek:

Corrupting something's essential nature with shadowstuff?

Evard
2010-03-21, 03:58 PM
The player said stuff like Enlarge person, flame arrow, and alter self *shrug* not sure why he really needs it but setting up some rules for it would let him set something up. Transmutation is one of his forbidden schools and wanted a way to use certain transmutation spells.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 04:38 PM
I don't see an issue if he researched it.

But which would it be more like Shadow Conj or Evoc for limitations? Is there a percent fail like (Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work)
or
No work on nonbelievers at all if nonbelief:
(Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.)

Yora
2010-03-21, 04:43 PM
The idea about shadow magic as presented in the FRCS and the PHB is that shadow magic is good at making believe. Illusions that seem so real that they can hurt and enchantments that even decieve the strongest will. But it's still mostly fake and shadowcasters are very bad at actually creating permanent things or changing physical objects.

Claudius Maximus
2010-03-21, 05:01 PM
How would Shadow Fox's Cunning or Shadow Polymorph work? Would they only work 20% of the time? Who rolls the save and when?

If you can fail your own save against it, it would essentially be an easy way to cast transmutation spells on yourself spontaneously. I'm not sure I like it, especially considering all the completely intangible or invisible transmutations.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 05:05 PM
It is either 20% chance of success or only if their fail on will save (depending on how spell is adapted from Shadow Conj or Shadow Evoc).
What do you mean by invisible transmutations?

Jack_Simth
2010-03-21, 05:39 PM
It is either 20% chance of success or only if their fail on will save (depending on how spell is adapted from Shadow Conj or Shadow Evoc).
What do you mean by invisible transmutations?
They don't have any obvious effect.

Shadow Conjouration makes physical stuff. Shadow Evocation makes energy. In both cases, the shadow-stuff is making something. Transmutations don't work that way.

Besides, it's a really bad road to go down - as you've got one school that's getting progressively more and more stuff in it.

Private-Prinny
2010-03-21, 06:13 PM
Shadow spells use stuff from the Plane of Shadow to make stuff look real when it's not. Conjuration creates stuff, and Evocation invokes stuff. You can't use a Shadow Teleport because it's not creation. Transmutation =/= Creation.

I can see a Shadow Abjuration spell working.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-21, 06:18 PM
Shadow spells use stuff from the Plane of Shadow to make stuff look real when it's not. Conjuration creates stuff, and Evocation invokes stuff. You can't use a Shadow Teleport because it's not creation. Transmutation =/= Creation.

I can see a Shadow Abjuration spell working.

I don't think shadow resist energy or shadow dispel magic work to well.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 06:25 PM
I don't think shadow resist energy or shadow dispel magic work to well.

Why? 20% chance if the target believes that the spell is real that he has his spells dispelled (if Dispel check made).
Step 1: Will save
Step 2: If Will save failed, 20% chance dispel works
Step 3: assuming Dispel works, roll dispel check.

Nero24200
2010-03-21, 07:17 PM
I'm not sure. The thing about shadow conjuration and evocations is that theres less need for house-rules when making their spells only a certain percent real.

How would you handle an enlarge person spell that's only 20% real? Would someone disbeleiving the the spell cause the person to shrink?

Optimystik
2010-03-21, 07:23 PM
Shadow Transmutation makes no sense to me. Transmutations truly change things. If you're faking change, how is it transmutation?

And it's not even like you can just slather shadowstuff on something the way you can with shadow conjuration. According to Tome of Magic, Shadow magic is a magical version of the law of conservation of energy - conjurations and evocations work by stealing energy from other planes and bringing it to the material plane. The vacuums created by doing this echo in the Plane of Shadow, allowing Shadowcasters and illusionists to use the echoes of that power in similar (but not quite real) ways.

Transmutation, on the other hand, never actually creates such a vacuum, it just changes one thing into another. In short, it already obeys the law. There should be no echo in the plane of shadow to create such a spell from.

Shadow Abjuration makes even less sense. The whole point of abjuration is to strip away illusion. An illusion that strips away illusions would just be more illusion - and not abjuration at all.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-21, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure. The thing about shadow conjuration and evocations is that theres less need for house-rules when making their spells only a certain percent real.

How would you handle an enlarge person spell that's only 20% real? Would someone disbeleiving the the spell cause the person to shrink?

Step 1: Check if wants Fort save or not
Step 2:
a. Assuming willing, 20% chance spell works
b. Assuming not willing, Will save to disbelief
Step 3
a. Willing
1) Pass % chance, You are enlarged
2) Fail %, not enlarged
b. Fail Will save
1) % chance to be enlarged (Fort save)
2) No enlarged

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-22, 04:00 PM
Letting a caster do whatever he wants with whatever spell school he wants defeats the point of having spell schools. Were I homebrewing/houseruling, I'd try to narrow down what each school can do (by e.g. sticking mage armor in Abjuration where it belongs, etc.), so as to make the distinctions between them more meaningful.

You could just allow Wizards to prepare spells from their banned schools in higher-level slots if you don't want them to lose access to those types of magic entirely. Like, maybe require slots 2 spell levels higher, as though preparing metamagic spells, and make their caster levels 4 lower for their banned schools.

2xMachina
2010-03-23, 04:20 AM
How would Shadow Fox's Cunning or Shadow Polymorph work? Would they only work 20% of the time? Who rolls the save and when?

If you can fail your own save against it, it would essentially be an easy way to cast transmutation spells on yourself spontaneously. I'm not sure I like it, especially considering all the completely intangible or invisible transmutations.

Placebo Effect!

You think you're smarter, thus you are. If you disbelieve... well, no effect.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 07:27 AM
Shadow Magic is supposed to be versions of other schools using the shadowstuff from the Plane of Shadow to mimic the essence created by the real spell. As such...well, mimicking the turning of something into something else with shadowstuff doesn't really make sense.

Conjuration and Evocation are the schools that deal with creation (of matter and energy, respectively) so using shadowstuff to replicate that works, but...