Species-ist Fictional Characters

[Jokasti]

In the recent comic #707, that one elven guy pushed a hobgoblin off a presumably high tower. People consider this species-ist or racist, but they are wrong. The real insult in this comic is the final comment- "Elves are awesome."
Now some people may consider this a compliment or a praise. This is not so. Positive racism or species-ism is a major problem that doesn't get enough attention. When people make these comments, they don't think about the un-awesome elves, or the elves that don't give a mote of dust's shadow about the opinions of lesser races. Please stop positive racism. Don't call elves awesome, don't call humans groovy, don't call dragons cool. Stick with the insults.

[multilis]

Poor pitbull dogs, don't get the same legal treatment as other dogs in many, many parts of US and Canada.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html Think it as likely a elf child would have betrayed to get evil recommendation? (V's kids: "wow parent so cool to see you evil!")

Not so easy to play "black" and "white" when a single betrayal could mean your side gets killed by wights.

[Vemynal]

@ OP- i see what u did there and i love you for it

[Teddy]

Poor pitbull dogs, don't get the same legal treatment as other dogs in many, many parts of US and Canada.

Nonono, that's racism. One example of speciesism would be that the poor dogs doesn't get treated the same as us humans in practically the entire world.

Pitbull terrier - a race of dogs
Dogs - a species of canines

[Melamoto]

Poor pitbull dogs, don't get the same legal treatment as other dogs in many, many parts of US and Canada.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html Think it as likely a elf child would have betrayed to get evil recommendation? (V's kids: "wow parent so cool to see you evil!")

Not so easy to play "black" and "white" when a single betrayal could mean your side gets killed by wights.

That is not what this thread is about. This thread is here to stop the discrimatory horror of positive racism/speciesism! Stop racial compliments today, or someday we may all be being called awesome.

[2xMachina]

It's not the goblin he's killing that makes him awesome. It's how he kills.

I'm pretty sure she'll say the same thing if he did it to a human or something.

Funny joke = awesome

[Fallbot]

It's not the goblin he's killing that makes him awesome. It's how he kills.

I'm pretty sure she'll say the same thing if he did it to a human or something.

Funny joke = awesome

You're missing the point. Just because one elf did something that may or may not be awesome, it doesn't mean you can generalize and claim that all 'elves are awesome'. That is positive discrimination, my friend. And that is wrong.

[Ancalagon]

don't call dragons cool.

Now, stop, stop... the rest might be true but dragons ARE cool.

[Kaytara]

^ Technically, dragons are cold-blooded, and thus their temperature depends entirely on their surroundings, doesn't it? :smallcool:

The statement "elves are awesome" with all its implication is very in-character and relevant for the character making it, who was last seen slaughtering hobgoblins with a Belkaresque grin.

Aside from that, "Xs are awesome" tends to have less practically disastrous results than "The only good X is a dead X", for obvious reasons. So I don't think it's that big a deal to use a turn of phrase like that.

[Closak]

The only good elf is a dead elf *Pushes the elf commander of the roof*


DEAD elves are awesome :smallbiggrin:


There, justice has been served.

[Scarlet Knight]

When people said Belkar was awesome, I said nothing because I wasn't a halflling.

When people said O-Chul was awesome, I said nothing because I wasn't a paladin.

When people said Elves were awesome, I said nothing because I wasn't an elf.

When it was my turn, no one was left to say I was awesome because the thread became boring...:smalltongue:

[Sholos]

^ Technically, dragons are cold-blooded, and thus their temperature depends entirely on their surroundings, doesn't it? :smallcool:

Actually, I think dragons are warm-blooded....

[Kaytara]

Actually, I think dragons are warm-blooded....

Are they? :smallconfused: But they're scaly, no fur or feathers and don't seem to store a lot of fat. And their lifestyle of lazing about on their treasure hoards for days and then launching out to hunt seems more typical of ectothermic animals...

[Closak]

Yes, dragons are warm-blooded.

Trust me, i should know better than most people given my obsession with them.

But despite being warm-blooded they display a lot of other reptilian traits, which is probably the source of the rather common belief that they are cold-blooded.

[Darakonis]

Are they? :smallconfused: But they're scaly, no fur or feathers and don't seem to store a lot of fat. And their lifestyle of lazing about on their treasure hoards for days and then launching out to hunt seems more typical of ectothermic animals...

I was initially writing in to agree with you, but upon further research, I've changed my mind. Sorry :\

Cold-blooded creatures are not capable of sustained periods of high activity. These creatures need to "sun" themselves for hours, and the bigger the creature, the more "sun" required to warm themselves. Although dragons are often depicted lying on their treasure, rarely is that treasure located in broad daylight...

Alligators/crocs lie in the sun for hours, and deplete their reserves with just a short burst of speed.

Recently, paleontologists have largely agreed that dinosaurs were warm-blooded for these reasons. If they were cold-blooded, they could not have competed with the warm-blooded creatures of the day.

(And if I'm not mistaken, some say that dinosaurs are more closely related to birds than reptiles).

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Scarlet Knight]

Vaasurvius declares dragons to be reptiles. I agree.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html

[Closak]

Except that V has often proven to be very VERY VERY horrifyingly wrong on multiple occasions.

[Draconi Redfir]

Recently, paleontologists have largely agreed that dinosaurs were warm-blooded for these reasons. If they were cold-blooded, they could not have competed with the warm-blooded creatures of the day.

my theory is that the earth back then was much warmer then the earth today, my guess is that the earth didint have an axis like it dose now, and was actually a little closer to the sun. this would allow for more heat, so even while moveing the dinosaurs could stay warm. when the meitior hit, the earth tilted, and was pushed backwords slightly.



that... or they were just warm blooded XD

[Kaytara]

Except that V has often proven to be very VERY VERY horrifyingly wrong on multiple occasions.

Except that the dragons themselves seem to identify with reptilian lizards strongly, to the point where lizards are "another culture". Keep the character hate reasonable there, buddy.


I was initially writing in to agree with you, but upon further research, I've changed my mind. Sorry :\

Cold-blooded creatures are not capable of sustained periods of high activity. These creatures need to "sun" themselves for hours, and the bigger the creature, the more "sun" required to warm themselves. Although dragons are often depicted lying on their treasure, rarely is that treasure located in broad daylight...

Alligators/crocs lie in the sun for hours, and deplete their reserves with just a short burst of speed.

Recently, paleontologists have largely agreed that dinosaurs were warm-blooded for these reasons. If they were cold-blooded, they could not have competed with the warm-blooded creatures of the day.

(And if I'm not mistaken, some say that dinosaurs are more closely related to birds than reptiles).

Peace,
-Darakonis

I know about the sunning part. (Though that always made me wonder about nocturnal snakes and such...) I was just sort of assuming that that's where magic would fit in. If they can breathe fire, why not?

Even without magic, it's still possible to theorise that, say, they just have a cycle of heating and cooling that takes much longer - so that they AREN'T capable of sustained activity, but it still looks like a long time to whatever villagers that get raided by them or the adventurers that fight them.

Dragons are reclusive, after all. In fact, having to spend somewhere in the area of days or weeks sunning before spending equally long periods without needing to sun would explain how they haven't taken over the world by now. And since they have such a great body mass, they wouldn't lose all that heat they've built up all that quickly.

[Herald Alberich]

Having a magical source of heat makes perfect sense for red, brass, and gold dragons, but I'm not sure about the ones with breath weapons other than fire, especially whites and silvers. They could simply be magically able to survive without much body heat at all, but if you allow that, you might as well throw biological rules out the window (which we probably should do anyway, really). Being warm-blooded does present less problems overall, I think.

[Kish]

Dragons are scaly, they lay eggs, and they are utterly lacking in any mammalian characteristics. The notion that they are warm-blooded is silly.


Just like a humanoid to quote three facts, get one of them wrong, and then draw an unrelated conclusion from the lot.

Both from the Draconomicon.

Are we talking about whether dragons are ectothermic or endothermic in D&D or in OotS? In D&D, the answer is unambiguously "endothermic." In OotS, Rich hasn't said, and I wouldn't base anything on the presumption that Vaarsuvius speaks for him.

[Kaytara]

Having a magical source of heat makes perfect sense for red, brass, and gold dragons, but I'm not sure about the ones with breath weapons other than fire, especially whites and silvers. They could simply be magically able to survive without much body heat at all, but if you allow that, you might as well throw biological rules out the window (which we probably should do anyway, really). Being warm-blooded does present less problems overall, I think.

Oh, but this is fun! Dragons are said as being able to digest anything, right? So technically, they should be able to get energy from pretty much anything. And while body heat in mammals is generated as warmth from muscle movements, there are plenty of chemical reactions of inorganic substances that directly generate heat. For the acid and lightning-breathing dragons, using some obscure form of chemical energy generation, like chemeosynthesis....

[Darakonis]

I know about the sunning part. (Though that always made me wonder about nocturnal snakes and such...) I was just sort of assuming that that's where magic would fit in. If they can breathe fire, why not?
Yeah, I can live with dragons being cold-blooded if we use magic to explain the science out the door. But if we do that, then I don't think it really matters whether they are cold or warm blooded anyhow :)


Even without magic, it's still possible to theorise that, say, they just have a cycle of heating and cooling that takes much longer - so that they AREN'T capable of sustained activity, but it still looks like a long time to whatever villagers that get raided by them or the adventurers that fight them.

Dragons are reclusive, after all. In fact, having to spend somewhere in the area of days or weeks sunning before spending equally long periods without needing to sun would explain how they haven't taken over the world by now. And since they have such a great body mass, they wouldn't lose all that heat they've built up all that quickly.
Yeah this argument is strongly aided by a dragon's extensive life cycle. But the problem comes with the different types of dragons...

For "environment," most dragons are listed as (something) and underground.

If underground, a dragon would never be exposed to sunlight. We can throw in magma chambers and geothermal vents as sources of heat, but these are rare in underground environments. But I think it's fair to assume that a dragon can come out from underground to sun, then return underground, so moving on...

White dragon: any cold land and underground.

In cold land, a dragon would never be able to get its temperature high enough to move its massive weight around. It'd be losing heat faster than it can absorb it.

Which brings us back to dragons having magical energy sources that help regulate their body temperature, but that's basically what being warm-blooded means: having an internal method of regulating your body temperature.

Re: Kish's post. I actually find this to be ambiguous; isn't the second quote implying the first is somehow incorrect? Maybe I'm missing some context here.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Kish]

Yes, the first quote is incorrect, as in dragons in D&D are endothermic (warm-blooded).

[Darakonis]

*cracks open his dusty Draconomicon*


Page 9, Metabolism

Laypeople (...) are fond of the terms "cold-blooded" and "warm-blooded" to describe ectothermic and endothermic creatures, respectively.

(...)

All true dragons are endothermic. Given their elemental nature, they could hardly be otherwise. A dragon's body temperature depends on its kind and sometimes its age.

Well, that settles it. Again, sorry Kaytara, I honestly originally set out to help prove your theory :\

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Kaytara]

It was more speculation than a theory, and no need to apologise either way. XD

Hell, we HAVE mammals that lay eggs. The idea isn't that strange.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: I thought this thread was going to turn out to be a giant debate about the very topic it sought to lampoon. I never expected it to veer so far off-topic into dragonlore that it'd have to be locked. I guess that's what happens when smart people see a powder keg - they move along.