Arcane Thesis?

[Raenir Salazar]

How does Arcane Thesis work? Some sites mention its possible to super metamagic say Enervation and get its spell level to not actually increase.

How does that work?

[Mastikator]

Sort of. It lets you apply metamagic a 1 less spell level cost. Kind of like epic meta magic, except only for one spell, and pre-epic.
A regular maximized empowered enervation is spell level 4+2+3 = 9, an arcane theisis maximized empowered enervatio is 4+1+2 = 7. Basically meaning you bestow 4+(1d4)/2 negative levels as a level 13 wizard, instead of 17.

[tyckspoon]

Arcane Thesis lowers the cost of any metamagic you apply to the Thesis'd spell by 1. It's fairly unique among metamagic reducers in that it does not specify a floor value for the metamagic cost. This allows you to take a natural +0 metamagic, like Energy Substitution or Invisible Spell, and use it to balance a level of adjustment from another metamagic. For a basic example, an Arcane Thesis'd Fireball might look like- Maximize (+2), Searing Spell (+0), Invisible Spell (-1), Energy Sub (Fire) (-1) = 0 spell level adjustment.

[sambo.]

it also adds +2 to caster level checks....

i have a noctumancer who'll be doing a thesis on Dispel Magic.....

[Douglas]

it also adds +2 to caster level checks....

i have a noctumancer who'll be doing a thesis on Dispel Magic.....
No, it adds +2 to caster level. If your caster level is already at the cap for Dispel Magic, that means the extra is useless. It'll help you get to that cap sooner, but it won't help you go beyond it.

[Boci]

Arcane Thesis lowers the cost of any metamagic you apply to the Thesis'd spell by 1. It's fairly unique among metamagic reducers in that it does not specify a floor value for the metamagic cost. This allows you to take a natural +0 metamagic, like Energy Substitution or Invisible Spell, and use it to balance a level of adjustment from another metamagic. For a basic example, an Arcane Thesis'd Fireball might look like- Maximize (+2), Searing Spell (+0), Invisible Spell (-1), Energy Sub (Fire) (-1) = 0 spell level adjustment.

I was want to point out that this is with the errata. Before that you could cast energy sub fire as a 2nd level spell using arcane thesis.

[sambo.]

No, it adds +2 to caster level. If your caster level is already at the cap for Dispel Magic, that means the extra is useless. It'll help you get to that cap sooner, but it won't help you go beyond it.

ok then, i'll get it for GREATER dispel magic......

might even try to get a houserule that it allows you to exceed the cap. it costs a damn feat after all.....

[Douglas]

ok then, i'll get it for GREATER dispel magic......

might even try to get a houserule that it allows you to exceed the cap. it costs a damn feat after all.....
Just get Elven Spell Lore instead. Adds +2 to the check directly, thereby bypassing the cap, and works for both Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

[Tinydwarfman]

The errata ruined all of the fun. My 0th level fireballs of doom were so cool... :smallfrown:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Metamagic Rods count toward Arcane Thesis. Use Sanctum Spell and the spell's actual level is lower by one, thereby allowing you to use a Lesser Metamagic Rod on a normally 4th level spell, plus as per errata you can lower it to a 3rd level spell slot.

Say you have Sanctum Spell, Twin Spell, Split Ray, and either Practical/Easy Metamagic for twin and split or Metamagic School Focus, with Arcane Thesis: Enervation:

Enervation (4th), Twin Spell (+2), Sanctum Spell (-1), Split Ray (+0), Lesser Rod of Maximize (-1), and it's cast from a 4th level spell slot. Add one more normally +0 metamagic like Cooperative Spell and it can be cast from a 3rd level spell slot, due to being cast outside your sanctum.

[GreyVulpine]

The author of Arcane Thesis posted this a little while ago (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/162470-arcane-thesis-abuse-phb-ii-4.html), clarifying his intent with the nature of the feat (post 55).

[Raenir Salazar]

I'ld prefer to go with the most broken interpretation as my DM for my biweekly game won't check and hes kinda constantly putting me in 'bad' positions (trying to get party members to attack me, throwing too high cr mobs at me etc) and generally kinda careless as a DM (I don't not have any choice whom I DM with my local options are limited) so my solution is to powergame my wizard so that I can survive whatever is thrown at me and save my party's asses and preempt whatever Deus Ex machina the DM tried to have save the day instead.

So basically I'm thinking of either using enervation or shivering touch and making it my secret weapon.

So Arcane Thesis is +2 caster level and -1 for each metamagic?

So for:

Enervation: Maximize, Empower, Chain (or split ray?)
Shivering Touch: Same

What else can I add to either get these to stay at 3rd and 4th level or less? And what levels would I need?

[Dr Bwaa]

So basically I'm thinking of either using enervation or shivering touch and making it my secret weapon.

So Arcane Thesis is +2 caster level and -1 for each metamagic?

So for:

Enervation: Maximize, Empower, Chain (or split ray?)
Shivering Touch: Same

What else can I add to either get these to stay at 3rd and 4th level or less? And what levels would I need?

The thing about Arcane Thesis is that you are limited only by how many metamagic feats you get. If incantatrix is allowed it gets way stronger (since that gives you metamagic feats and further reduces metamagic costs).

So, what classes & level are you? Or put another way, how many metamagic feats do you have access to? You need to make sure to take a few +0 metamagics, since these turn into -1 reducers. Invisible Spell is a very common one of these, and energy substitution (though this can't apply to enervate or shivering touch, I don't think). Otherwise, you just want as many as you possibly can, because as long as you have enough -1 feats, you can do whatever you want. (Note that Incantatrix 10 lets you turn +1 metamagics into -1s (by applying Incantatrix first), enhancing your abilities considerably).

[Raenir Salazar]

Wizard Focused Conjuror level 4, Incantatrix is gonna hurt having to bar another school (probably necromancy but I get to keep the lower level spells I already know).

[Galileo]

I think Energy Sub can be added to Shivering Touch, as it's a cold subtype spell. It'd just shift the type of creatures that can't be affected by it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you already know Enervation then don't hesitate to ban Necromancy, it has little to offer in the later levels. Visit the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel if possible to get Iron Will without spending wasting a feat on it, or just pay 2,000 gp and say you've already done it as per the location's description. Are you able to take Easy Metamagic (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (page 58) from Dragon 325?

[Defiant]

Could someone please point out to me where I can find the RAW wording that claims or implies that a +0 metamagic becomes a -1 metamagic? Because that seems ludicrous.

[Gaiyamato]

I used it once as this:

Arcane Thesis Enlarged Fell Animate Black Sand with Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy) and Easy Metamagic (Fell Animate), Easy Metamagic (Enlarge) and then strolled into a village using all of my spell slots that I could on it. lol

Had to actually purge a few zombies that were over my control limit. :P

[GreyVulpine]

Could someone please point out to me where I can find the RAW wording that claims or implies that a +0 metamagic becomes a -1 metamagic? Because that seems ludicrous.

There isn't one. There's a loosely interpreted version that people like to use to make +0 into -1 metamagic versions, but even the original author of the feat comes out saying that it wasn't how it was first concieved.

[Raenir Salazar]

If you already know Enervation then don't hesitate to ban Necromancy, it has little to offer in the later levels. Visit the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel if possible to get Iron Will without spending wasting a feat on it, or just pay 2,000 gp and say you've already done it as per the location's description. Are you able to take Easy Metamagic (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (page 58) from Dragon 325?


Choose a Metamagic feat you know. When preparing or casting spells with this feat,
treat the Level Adjustment as being one lower than it actually is (min +1). For
example, Easy Metamagic could reduce Quicken Spell from +4 to +3.
You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a new Metamagic Feat.

As long as I print the page in question. This looks nice, should arcane thesis stack on it? Would that help?

[GreyVulpine]

If you really want metamagic cheese, combine Arcane Thesis with as many +0 metamagic as you can find, add in Metamagic school focus (Complete Mage) for an additional -1 cost 3/day, per school of magic. Throw in some sudden metamagic as well for no level cost, then go to town with all the high-cost metamagic you can scrounge.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you really want metamagic cheese, combine Arcane Thesis with as many +0 metamagic as you can find, add in Metamagic school focus (Complete Mage) for an additional -1 cost 3/day, per school of magic. Throw in some sudden metamagic as well for no level cost, then go to town with all the high-cost metamagic you can scrounge.

Its already been stated that the minimum is zero via errata and the original creators intentions, so stop stating RAYW (rules as you want).
No sane DM would allow it anyway.

[GreyVulpine]

Its already been stated that the minimum is zero via errata and the original creators intentions, so stop stating RAYW (rules as you want).
No sane DM would allow it anyway.

I know that, and I've quote the original author on it.

[PhoenixRivers]

Its already been stated that the minimum is zero via errata and the original creators intentions, so stop stating RAYW (rules as you want).
No sane DM would allow it anyway.

Errata states that the final spell can't be lower level, not that individual metamagic cannot.

So if you stack 4 metamagic effects that are +0 level, they become -4 level. Add in Empower (+1), and Quicken (+3), and you now have a spell that has no level change, because the final level is no lower than the base spell.

[GreyVulpine]

Errata states that the final spell can't be lower level, not that individual metamagic cannot.

So if you stack 4 metamagic effects that are +0 level, they become -4 level. Add in Empower (+1), and Quicken (+3), and you now have a spell that has no level change, because the final level is no lower than the base spell.

The original author also states that it was the intention of the feat's description that individual +0 level metamagic doesn't go to -1.

[PhoenixRivers]

The original author also states that it was the intention of the feat's description that individual +0 level metamagic doesn't go to -1.

You know what they say about what the road to hell is paved with.

I agree that it shouldn't work.
I agree that most DM's won't let it work.

But it DOES work, by a reading of the ability. There's really no disputing that. It's a very reasonable houserule that I have in place in my games.

[GreyVulpine]

You know what they say about what the road to hell is paved with.

I agree that it shouldn't work.
I agree that most DM's won't let it work.

But it DOES work, by a reading of the ability. There's really no disputing that. It's a very reasonable houserule that I have in place in my games.

Then by that same loose reading, a +0 0th-level ray of frost would be essentially free. Or a +0 energy substitution combined with a +2 empowered spell would be allowed, but any +0 metamagic alone wouldn't. Or a guy can basically fuel his metamagic cheese with arcane thesis/metamagic school focus/easy metamagic, all the +0 metamagic he can find, then combine all the +x metamagic he can find in all the splatbooks, making him a munchkin.

[PhoenixRivers]

Then by that same loose reading, a +0 0th-level ray of frost would be essentially free.
No, by the errata ruling, a level 0 spell can never go below level 0. A level 1 spell can never go below level 1.
Or a +0 energy substitution combined with a +2 empowered spell would be allowed, but any +0 metamagic alone wouldn't.[/quote]Wrong. It imposes a minimum. A level 2 Scorching Ray with Energy Substitution (Acid) would still be a level 2 spell.


Or a guy can basically fuel his metamagic cheese with arcane thesis/metamagic school focus/easy metamagic, all the +0 metamagic he can find, then combine all the +x metamagic he can find in all the splatbooks, making him a munchkin.
Please. There's no need for name calling. However, by the reading of the rules, you are correct. A player could use those feats, with Embrace/Shun and all the meta in the splatbooks, and abuse the metamagic rules.

However, that is why I said that I agree that it shouldn't work that way, and that it SHOULD be houseruled.

That doesn't change the fact that I'm saying how it works, and then saying it should be changed...

And you're trying to say, "No, I want them to be this way, so that's the way they are officially"... And that's just not true, guy. That's just not true.

You're arguing RAYWTTB as RAW. That's my only issue with your point.

[Defiant]

Are you kidding me? This isn't anything but munchkinery! It's ridiculous! Any DM who knows what this is about would change it immediately. And that's all that matters.

Do you mean to say you would come to the table with Pun-Pun, generated using only RAW? Would an argument against Pun-Pun be illegitimate, since it would be using "Rules as I want them to be" and thus have no basis on reality or RAW?

[absolmorph]

Are you kidding me? This isn't anything but munchkinery! It's ridiculous! Any DM who knows what this is about would change it immediately. And that's all that matters.

Do you mean to say you would come to the table with Pun-Pun, generated using only RAW? Would an argument against Pun-Pun be illegitimate, since it would be using "Rules as I want them to be" and thus have no basis on reality or RAW?
Pun-Pun is a RAW character. Pun-Pun is not (probably) a RAI character, though.
And this is "munchkinery" in the same sense that optimizing a skill like crazy is "munchkinery". It just happens that you're making a spell (or a few spells) really, really good. And everything else is probably about average for a caster.
Would you not allow a player to use the build in my signature (Bubs the Commoner, who can tame a Battletitan at level 4) because you feel it's munchkinery and ridiculous?
I mean, it is ridiculous, but it's Theoretical Optimization.

[PhoenixRivers]

Are you kidding me? This isn't anything but munchkinery! It's ridiculous! Any DM who knows what this is about would change it immediately. And that's all that matters.

Do you mean to say you would come to the table with Pun-Pun, generated using only RAW? Would an argument against Pun-Pun be illegitimate, since it would be using "Rules as I want them to be" and thus have no basis on reality or RAW?

An argument that Pun Pun was actually against the rules as written would be illegitimate.

An argument that Pun Pun has no place at the table, and that the DM has houseruled that the trick does not work is entirely legitimate.

In the former, you're trying to take your personal opinion and view, and force it on the game as a whole.

In the latter, you're acknowledging the imbalance of the game, and taking steps at your level to fix it.

As I said: Metamagic abuse isn't balanced.
Metamagic abuse has no place in most games.
A wise DM will houserule metamagic abuse to not work, in most games.
Such a DM can have a fun and rewarding game, with that houserule in place.

All of the above are correct. Why is it that whenever I tell someone that their personal preference is a houserule, everyone assumes I'm trying to kick their puppy?

There is nothing wrong with houserules. Just acknowledge them as such, rather than saying that it's been errata'd so that it doesn't work, when it hasn't.

[Vulaas]

I take offense to this term, of calling a theoretic exercise munchkining.

Yes, this is crazy-powered
Yes, this is not the intent of the designer.
Yes, this is how it works, regardless of intent.

We're not going out there saying "ZOMG Best thing for a wizard ever!!1eleven", but it is a viable thing to do. Saying that "any DM who knows what this is about would change it immediately, and that's all that matters." is hyperbole. Every DM has different ideas of what is ok to use, I know plenty who wouldn't even bat an eye at this.

[JaronK]

And I've absolutely seen this sort of thing used in real games. It's one of the few ways to make a really solid blaster caster if the game is already pretty optimized. If you're competing with Lion Totem Barbarian Shock Trooper chargers, then Arcane Thesis with a bunch of metamagics on Wings of Flurry is perfectly acceptable.

JaronK

[absolmorph]

And I've absolutely seen this sort of thing used in real games. It's one of the few ways to make a really solid blaster caster if the game is already pretty optimized. If you're competing with Lion Totem Barbarian Shock Trooper chargers, then Arcane Thesis with a bunch of metamagics on Wings of Flurry is perfectly acceptable.

JaronK
Exactly. The real trick to practical optimization is not outshining the rest of the party. If the melee characters are dealing enough damage that the DM has to roll a Fort save for massive damage on every hit, why shouldn't the caster?

Also, stating that any DM that sees this would automatically change it is definitely a lie. I would allow the easily abused reading. I'm a DM.

[Ashram]

I think Energy Sub can be added to Shivering Touch, as it's a cold subtype spell. It'd just shift the type of creatures that can't be affected by it.

Energy Substitution can be added to ANY spell with an energy descriptor. Shivering Touch is a Necromancy [Cold] spell, so there you go. You can even come up with fun, new names!

Shivering Touch + Energy Sub.: Fire = Sizzling Touch (Inflicts Dexterity damage by heating the joints so much that it becomes painful to move!)
Shivering Touch + Energy Sub.: Electricty = Numbing Touch (Inflicts Dexterity damage by sending electrical surges through the muscles and causing them to seize up!)
Shivering Touch + Energy Sub.: Acid = Corrosive Touch (Causes Dexterity damage by eating some of the victim's muscles away with acid, making it harder to move!) [I'm almost positive there's a 1st level spell called Corrosive Touch, similar to Shocking Grasp.]

And don't even ask what happens if an archmage uses Energy Substitution: Sonic. >_>

[PhoenixRivers]

And don't even ask what happens if an archmage uses Energy Substitution: Sonic. >_>

This is what happens (http://ironman.propworx.com/2010/03/04/stark-industries-sonic-taser/).

[warmachine]

Now that the original question has been answered, I will add that Arcane Thesis is broken even if played as intended. I was once played an 8th level metamagic Sorcerer who thought his ability to alter Fireball spells showed he was an educated and sophisticated mage, oblivious to the fact that all he did was blast things. The character was built with +1 Sculpt Spell in mind and had no +0 metamagic cheese. All good till I did an Empowered Fireball and realised I was doing 15d6 at level 8. I was overpowered without even trying. A pity because the feat is a good idea.

[Saph]

Are you kidding me? This isn't anything but munchkinery! It's ridiculous!

Yes, but this sort of TO does have a legitimate use. It lets you know what to ban. :smalltongue:

A good general rule as a DM is to put a blanket ban on anything that reduces metamagic costs, Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis being at the top of the list. Not all of them are broken, but figuring out exactly which ones are and which ones aren't is a lot of work. Metamagic is a perfectly good game mechanic, but only as long as you pay for it somehow.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As long as I print the page in question. This looks nice, should arcane thesis stack on it? Would that help?
(Easy Metamagic)

You can add your own bonuses and penalties in whatever order is most beneficial. If you take Easy Metamagic: Split Ray, applying Split Ray to a spell would be a +1 metamagic, so it fulfills the 'minimum +1' requirement and you never have to look back at it. You can apply Arcane Thesis afterward to reduce it further.

[PhoenixRivers]

Now that the original question has been answered, I will add that Arcane Thesis is broken even if played as intended. I was once played an 8th level metamagic Sorcerer who thought his ability to alter Fireball spells showed he was an educated and sophisticated mage, oblivious to the fact that all he did was blast things. The character was built with +1 Sculpt Spell in mind and had no +0 metamagic cheese. All good till I did an Empowered Fireball and realised I was doing 15d6 at level 8. I was overpowered without even trying. A pity because the feat is a good idea.

At level 8, a fireball does base damage of 8d6.
An Empowered Fireball gets +50% (+4d6).
That makes the damage of an empowered fireball 12d6, not 15d6.
The average damage for such a fireball is 42, or 21 on a successful save.

Compare that to a NON-MM abused Scorching Ray, that's been empowered.
12d6 damage to 1 target. Average damage 42, no save allowed.

Alternately, compare to Solid Fog.

These abilities are not that powerful.

Let's look:
{table=Header]Creature | HP | Special
Astral Construct (7th lvl) | 101
Advanced Mummy | 120 | Weak to fire
Athach | 133
Behir | 94
Blue Dragon, Juvenile | 142
Bodak | 58 | Fire Resistance 10
Brass Dragon, Juvenile | 110 | Immune to Fire
Dark Naga | 58
Destrachan | 60
Dire Tiger | 120
Efreeti | 65 | Immune to Fire
Arrowhawk, Elder | 112 | Fire Resistance 10
Xorn, Elder | 130 | Immune to Fire
Erinyes | 85 | Immune to Fire
Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan | 104
Giant Octopus | 47 | Must succeed at a Concentration check to cast Fire spells underwater
Gorgon | 85
Gray Render | 125
Shadow, Greater | 58 | Incorporeal (50% miss chance)
Green Dragon, Juvenile | 133
Gynosphinx | 52
Hellwasp Swarm | 93 | Fire Resistance 10, AoE Vulnerable
Lammasu | 59
Mohrg | 91
Hydra, 9-headed | 97 | Fast Healing 19, Special Kill Method(Fire Vulnerable)
Noble Djinni | 58
Ogre Mage | 37 | Regen-Fire Bypass, SR 19, permanent invisible
PyroHydra, 7-headed | 77 | Fast Heal 17, Immune to Fire
CryoHydra, 7-headed | 77 | Fast Heal 17, Weak to Fire, Special Kill Method(Fire Vulnerable)
Shield Guardian | 112 | Fast Healing 5
Stone Giant | 119
Treant | 66 | Weak to Fire
Tyrannosaurus | 180
White Dragon, Young Adult | 142 | Weak to Fire
Red Dragon Skeleton, Young Adult | 123 | Immune to Fire[/table]

As listed, only one CR-equivalent foe will die, on average (Ogre Mage), and it has enough SR to make it unaffected 50% of the time, as well as pretty much permanent Invisibility. And that's still only on a failed save.

For an ability to qualify as "broken", IMO, it must be able to trivialize equal CR encounters. This does not.

[pingcode20]

Just a quick point, PhoenixRivers - Arcane Thesis adds a +2 CL, so warmachine really does get the full 10d6*1.5.

Of course, the trouble is that that's basically the peak of what you can wring out of a thesis fireball. Doesn't get any better than that, which is a little sad, really.

[Saph]

For an ability to qualify as "broken", IMO, it must be able to trivialize equal CR encounters. This does not.

However, you're also using the spell in exactly the way it's not meant to be used. Area-damage spells are for killing groups. There's no rule saying that encounters must be with only one enemy.

[Soonerdj]

I think people forget the real reason why spells are better than melee. It isn't for shear damage, it is the ability to have widely versatile abilities packed into one character for minimal investment. A fighter has to blow tons of feats to get really good at something but on average an Optimized Fighter or Barbarian will deal more damage than your caster. They just will be doing only that while the caster has other toys to play with.

[PhoenixRivers]

However, you're also using the spell in exactly the way it's not meant to be used. Area-damage spells are for killing groups. There's no rule saying that encounters must be with only one enemy.

There is, however, a general principle that spells which are only effective against hordes aren't that good to begin with. They're targeting enemies which will generally be fodder for the other members of a party.

Especially when it represents half of the sorc's level 3 spells, and 1/3 of the level 3+ spells.

Let's look at 4 closely packed CR 4's. Now, the fireball is highly successful.

Then again, so is Black Tentacles, with no feat investment, from the same slot.

Granted, at level 8, a non-empowered Fireball for 28 damage would suffice just as well.

Let's look:{table=header]Creature | HP | Grapple Mod
Aranea | 22 | +3
Barghest | 33 | +9
Black Dragon, Very Young | 52 | +4
Blue Dragon, Very Young | 76 | +11
Brass Dragon, Very Young | 52 | +4
Brown Bear | 51 | +16
Chimera Skeleton | 58 | +12
Dire Boar | 52 | +17
Dire Wolverine | 45 | +13
Gargoyle | 37 | +6[/table]

Grapple Check For tentacles at CL 8 is +16. As you can see, it's pretty well just as effective at controlling most things. Yes, it's a power spell for groups, but this shows that we're using feats and other abilities to bring fireball up to rough parity at level 8. And the empowered Fireball's already hit its CL cap, and doesn't have the added benefit of slowing enemies down.

No, it's nowhere near broken, even against 4 closely packed enemies. The damage increase is about:
CL 8 Fireball: 28 damage
CL 10 Empowered Fireball: 52.5 damage

Cost is a higher level spell slot, for 24.5 additional damage. Is it good? Yeah, it's not bad. Is it broken?

Not by a long shot.

[Tyndmyr]

(Note that Incantatrix 10 lets you turn +1 metamagics into -1s (by applying Incantatrix first), enhancing your abilities considerably).

Negative. Incantatrix cannot reduce modifiers below +1. Now, this combo CAN reduce a +2 to +0 by applying incantatrix first, but the only way to get negative modifiers is arcane thesis and a +0 level MM. Keep in mind that due to errata, arcane thesis cannot lower the overall cost of the spell below the original, but you can use negative MMs to pay off expensive ones.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, Practical Metamagic in Races of the Dragon could be used to turn a +1 into a -1, or combine with Incantatrix 10 to turn a +2 into a -1, if you apply everything in the right order. Rather than having a 'minimum +1' requirement, it simply requires that the total adjustments to the spell come to +1 or more, and then Arcane Thesis can be added after that is fulfilled. Apply Improved Metamagic first so it goes down to at least +1, and then Practical Metamagic reduces it by one more, as long as the spell would be cast from a spell slot one higher before Arcane Thesis is added it works out.

[Ormagoden]

Also, stating that any DM that sees this would automatically change it is definitely a lie. I would allow the easily abused reading. I'm a DM.

I'm guessing you've never actually allowed it though...because a wizard ending every combat on round one regardless of the enemy would get rather boring for you and your carefully crafted NPCs.



<interrupt evil monologue> I dust the bad guy. My contingency spell of whenever I dust a bad guy cast wind wall on them goes off.

"NEXT!"- Wizard

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm guessing you've never actually allowed it though...because a wizard ending every combat on round one regardless of the enemy would get rather boring for you and your carefully crafted NPCs.



<interrupt evil monologue> I dust the bad guy. My contingency spell of whenever I dust a bad guy cast wind wall on them goes off.

"NEXT!"- Wizard

Actually, it's quite possible to present such casters with a challenge. I have allowed and run a high end game, and it's not as bad as you think.

[2xMachina]

It's always possible to provide a challenge. The only problem is challenging every PC. If they're all equally overpowered, simply throw high CR stuff at them. Or lots of enemies.

[Raenir Salazar]

Its already been stated that the minimum is zero via errata and the original creators intentions, so stop stating RAYW (rules as you want).
No sane DM would allow it anyway.

Unless of course your DM is inexperianced and hasn't researched anything outside of core and more or less allows everything outside of core. *cough like mine*

[Darth Stabber]

I have a very tightly constructed setting, and approve all non-core things on a case by case basis. Incantatrix's don't exist, arcane thesis gets the rider of no free metamagic that isn't already free, no easy metamagic. Psions are also far and away more common than wizards, giving wizards a real hard time finding large quantities of spells to transcribe, so their two freebies every level are very important. Wizardly brokenness is fairly mitigated against the rest of the field. The system breaks down when they get warlocks to scribe scroll for them.

[Whyte_Widow]

there are many thing barred at our table including duskblade. i cant immagine how a DM would ever allow dropping a spell lower than its normal level. i personally as a player would probably never come back to a game that allowed that. its just simply no fun for anyone involved.

our GM does the same ... and we have to approve every step our characters make to ensure the progression of the story line... and not an overly powered character. also if we introduce something, like a magical item or spell. or even feats... the GM will bring it back on us.

i was going to take enervation and shivering touch... however.. what fun would that be having an automatic win button. or even worse... the enemy having it. :smallyuk:

im in no way bashing anyone here... just a matter of opinion. our group has been playing together for almost 7 years. 2 times a week. 2 different games. i mean if you imagine enervation in a world of mages... what would that mean for the entire populace... when more than 75 percent of people dabble in magic and have access to these spells.

just sounds no fun to me...

[Keld Denar]

Enervation by itself is hardly game breaking. Its a GOOD spell, but its not an autowin, especially in an encounter with multiple foes. Its a 4th level spell. It should do something. If it didn't, nobody would ever take it. It only gets really rediculous when you apply metamagic cost reduction abuse it it. Without that, or with minimal amounts of that, its hardly more powerful than was intended.

Shivering Touch, on the other hand, should have never been written. Its not balanced by any definition of the word, and I agree with you that it should never be played with by either the players or DM.

[Frosty]

An argument that Pun Pun was actually against the rules as written would be illegitimate.

An argument that Pun Pun has no place at the table, and that the DM has houseruled that the trick does not work is entirely legitimate.

In the former, you're trying to take your personal opinion and view, and force it on the game as a whole.

In the latter, you're acknowledging the imbalance of the game, and taking steps at your level to fix it.

As I said: Metamagic abuse isn't balanced.
Metamagic abuse has no place in most games.
A wise DM will houserule metamagic abuse to not work, in most games.
Such a DM can have a fun and rewarding game, with that houserule in place.

All of the above are correct. Why is it that whenever I tell someone that their personal preference is a houserule, everyone assumes I'm trying to kick their puppy?

There is nothing wrong with houserules. Just acknowledge them as such, rather than saying that it's been errata'd so that it doesn't work, when it hasn't.

Maybe isntead of typing all that out you should just point to the thread about the Oberoni Fallacy? :smallbiggrin:

[Whyte_Widow]

Enervation by itself is hardly game breaking. Its a GOOD spell, but its not an autowin, especially in an encounter with multiple foes. Its a 4th level spell. It should do something. If it didn't, nobody would ever take it. It only gets really rediculous when you apply metamagic cost reduction abuse it it. Without that, or with minimal amounts of that, its hardly more powerful than was intended.

Shivering Touch, on the other hand, should have never been written. Its not balanced by any definition of the word, and I agree with you that it should never be played with by either the players or DM.

i can see that enervation would be fine. and completely agree with shivering touch.

maybe ill take enervation and see what possibilities arise. would this spell be considered evil? i would think so... :smallcool:

what other spells outside of scorching ray, enervation, and disintegrate would be ideal for arcane thesis?

i was thinking greater dispel magic.

[TaintedLight]

What about a Quickened Twinned Split Ray Empowered Maximized Energy Admixutred Polar Ray? For the sake of argument, say the character has an ECL of 23 through Ioun Stones and whatnot:

25d6 Cold plus 25d6 of something else. 50d6.

Empower it to 75d6, then max it for 450. Split Ray for another? Total 900 damage across 2 targets. Twin please? Four rays for a total of 1800 damage across four targets. Not too hard to do at 20th and I don't think it will cost you so much as a slot to do it. And it's a swift action :D.

[Keld Denar]

Someone mentioned Wings of Flurry from Races of the Dragon, its an uncapped xd6 per level point blank 15' AoE that deals force damage and has a chance to stun anyone in the area as well. Its a sorcerer only spell, so you'd need Rapid Metamagic or similar to really get the most out of metamagic shananigans, but its a very worthwhile one.

[sambo.]

Just get Elven Spell Lore instead. Adds +2 to the check directly, thereby bypassing the cap, and works for both Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

i'm actually planning on taking them both.

i'm playing an anti-caster. well, i'll become an anti-caster in a couple of levels. right now, i'm an underpowered sorcerer with some extra spells (Mysteries) from the shadowcaster side of things.

that reminds me, i'll need to start getting some meta happening.....