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One Step Two
2010-03-22, 01:44 AM
Hi everyone, after doing some reading I found a cool ACF in Drow of the Underdark for fighters.

Hit-and-Run Tactics: Giving up your Tower Shield and Heavy Armour Proficencies, you get +2 Initiative and add your Dex modifier to damage you deal to flat-footed opponents.

So from there I deicided to see just how much I can increase my init modifier. I Came up with the following:

Drow Fighter 1
ACF: Hit and Run (+2)
Fighter 1 Feat: Improved Iniative (+4)
Trait: Aggressive (+2)

Thats a nice +8 to initiative rolls, to push it further, if we can allow for the hit and run tactics to be applied to other races, specifically halflings, we can then spend the 1st character level feat on, Yondalla's Sense, which lets you add your wisdom to your iniative modifier.

So using 25 point buy, and we allow ourselves a nice 18 to dex, and something more average, like 14 to Wis, with a racial +2 to dex, it gives us a 20 (+5), and 14 (+2), or final iniative modifier is +15. Not bad for a single dip into fighter, and +13 for a Drow (assuming same dex mod) is still very nice.

Anything else that can push Initiative up any higher?

gorfnab
2010-03-22, 01:50 AM
Here you go: The Optimized Initiative Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)

Person_Man
2010-03-22, 09:52 AM
Be cautious with a Dex based Fighter build. Melee builds in general, and Fighters specifically, get most of their umph from two things - a Power Attack combo and Special Attacks (Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, etc). Power Attack et al isn't really effected by Strength (as long as it's high enough to meet the pre-reqs). But all of the special attacks require a Str check. So you might be acting first every combat, but you won't have much to do.

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-22, 10:17 AM
Two weapon fighting and some form of invisibility (or blinking or something) might be a good way to go. You get dex damage to every attack, so if you full attack at level 1 with TWF (take a flaw to get it) you could end up dealing around 20 damage if all connect. Respectable for that level, and each time you get an extra attack (Up to what, 8 at level 20?) increase that damage by 50%.

Unlike sneak attack damage, your dex damage will be multiplied on a critical hit, so optimizing for crits is not a terrible idea. Power attack is always a good idea.

If you don't want to use power attack for flavor reasons, which IMO is actually justifiable on this character, taking quick draw and rapid shot might make an interesting dagger thrower. PrC into master thrower for even more attacks and a source of flat footedness. This combo should get you around 10 attacks per round at level 20, with dex damage added to all of them, at range.

This gets better if somebody can buff you (dragonfire inspiration bard is your best, best friend for this build).

Oh, and if you have a good INT, three factotum levels will add your int to initiative. There is some synergy between the factotum an a dex based fighter if you have the int to spare, which it doesn't look like you will.

Kuzimu
2010-03-22, 10:19 AM
Getting a Hummingbird familiar (DR 323) gives you +4 untyped to initiative, which stacks with Improved Initiative. Already, that's a +8 bonus, and if you're a wizard or a sorcerer, you'll likely have at least +2 to Dex. Combine that with a region feat granting around +2 to initiative, and you will often be going first.

Last Laugh
2010-03-22, 10:21 AM
Factotum 3 (Dungeonscape) adds int-->Everything (str checks and dex checks) giving you good Init, and good grapple/trip/etc.
Draconic Aura(senses)(DrM) adds a variable amount to your parties Initiative (+4 by level 20) but you must be dragonblooded (deepwurm drow in RoDr)
Party Wizard with Nerveskitter(SpC) adds 5 to your initiative
Factotum 3 would also give you access to Nerveskitter 1/day.

On an alternate note, A much better + init Class feature for a fighter is
Warforged Fighter (none of that pesky LA) D12, Additional skills to choose from. No penalty(loss of feats) Races of Eberron pg 130
Lvl Effect
1 +3 initiative, +3 saves vs fear
2 Bonus warforged feat(instead of fighter feat)
4 +2 damage with any warforged component/slam attack.
Taking one or two levels of Warforged fighter would be much better for you (unless you like the drow flavor)

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-22, 10:27 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention Dread Comando!

This would go perfect with your Drow fighter.

First of all, you will end up adding a total of +5 (one per commando level) to your entire party's initiative.

Second, it grants sudden strike, which is good for you if you want to catch people flat footed anyway.

Third, it's full BAB.

Fourth, it gives you 6 skill points, negates AC check penalty from anything up to mithral full plate, and lets you run and charge while hiding at reasonable penalties. A really perfect class for you, but requires Dodge and Mobility.

Fighter 4/Factotum 3/Dread Commando 5 would be a good built. Focus on Dex and Int, and you don't need anything else.

Last Laugh
2010-03-22, 10:29 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention Dread Comando!


Where can Dread commando be found?
edit:Heros of battle, ty Wikipedia.

nargbop
2010-03-22, 12:43 PM
To cheese off your DM, get a Casting Glove and a +1 warning/+1 eager double weapon. There's another +7

ericgrau
2010-03-22, 01:08 PM
If you're in a campaign where armor check penalty actually matters and you need light armor, then weapon finesse can actually be worthwhile for normal melee. A better initiative is all the more reason.

v EDIT: And if you get dex to damage, there's little reason not to do this regardless of ACP. If you're worried about two-handedness, simply finesse a rapier or spiked chain in two hands.

Pechvarry
2010-03-22, 01:08 PM
Doesn't help with initiative so much, but another cool thing: Invisible Blade (assuming you discard the silly prereqs as the designers suggest) + Improved Feint + Surprising Riposte (Drow) can get you lots of dex>damage. I think this would be neat for a crit-focused (kukris), TWF build.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-22, 01:16 PM
Doesn't help with initiative so much, but another cool thing: Invisible Blade (assuming you discard the silly prereqs as the designers suggest) + Improved Feint + Surprising Riposte (Drow) can get you lots of dex>damage. I think this would be neat for a crit-focused (kukris), TWF build.

or Scimitars (awaits tomatoes for Drizzt's usage of Scimmys) or possibly a rapier using the One-Weapon feat from Dragon magazine Compendium

Critical
2010-03-22, 01:48 PM
Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle for 2x Dex Modifier to damage is also a good idea.

Pechvarry
2010-03-22, 07:56 PM
or Scimitars (awaits tomatoes for Drizzt's usage of Scimmys) or possibly a rapier using the One-Weapon feat from Dragon magazine Compendium

Kinda wastes a weapon focus and 3d6 sneak attack that way, though (Invisible Blade entry). And the last thing we need is another salvatore-esque character who attacks with 2 weapons in a corkscrewing motion (I swear, he's obsessed with dual wielding corkscrew attacks).

SSGoW
2010-03-22, 08:01 PM
I'll ask for a player of mine to post his character but at around level 12 he had a +20 ish Inituitive in 4e dnd so unless they erratta something the Warden (i think) he played was one fast .... guy...

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-22, 09:41 PM
I'll ask for a player of mine to post his character but at around level 12 he had a +20 ish Inituitive in 4e dnd so unless they erratta something the Warden (i think) he played was one fast .... guy...

That's only because in 4th Edition, you add half your level to Initiative checks. So that's +6 just for being level 12.

Also, this thread is clearly about 3.5 Edition, despite the lack of edition tags.

holywhippet
2010-03-22, 09:55 PM
I've never been convinced about the usefulness of high initiative. On occasion it might let you move first and avoid being flanked for example. But for most battles you'll get to act at some point anyway.

truemane
2010-03-22, 10:14 PM
There's also Blooded, from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting that gives you +2 to initiative. And there's Quick Reconnoiter from PHBII. You can make one Spot and one Listen Check per round as Free Actions, and you get +2 to Initiative.

Feat heavy, but effective.

Gametime
2010-03-22, 10:23 PM
I've never been convinced about the usefulness of high initiative. On occasion it might let you move first and avoid being flanked for example. But for most battles you'll get to act at some point anyway.

For builds that like charging, going first can make the difference between a big charge and no charge at all.

For builds that sneak attack, going first gets you almost-guaranteed flatfootedness that can't be defeated by the increasingly prevalent ability to see invisibility.

For spellcasters, going first can take out one or two opponents before they do anything at all.

For everyone else, going early can still make the difference between acting twice in the combat and acting three times. It's always a good idea to get in as many actions as possible.

Godskook
2010-03-22, 10:40 PM
I've never been convinced about the usefulness of high initiative. On occasion it might let you move first and avoid being flanked for example. But for most battles you'll get to act at some point anyway.

In my current pbp, where I play a wizard/rogue/daggerspell mage, going first has meant:

-Depositing the group's paladin in full attack range of both(at once!) enemy spell casters, before either got to act, so they had to deal with a flat-footed full-attack.
-Dropping a fog cloud on a group of physical baddies before any had the opportunity to charge.
-Never being flat-footed, which in turn, means my Abrupt Jaunt class feature is always available for use.

And we've had 4 encounters.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-23, 12:29 AM
The Wizard wins initiative. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm)

BenTheJester
2010-03-23, 08:17 PM
The Wizard wins initiative. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm)

Initiative is not an opposed ability/skill check, nor an attack roll, nor a saving throw.
It's dumb, but I don't think that by RAW this works


I posted this build on BG:
Dusk of the Swiftblade (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg243844#msg243844)

It's a rather good hit-and-run build with 8+dex+int+5(nerveskitter) to initiative, and the build relies a lot on dex and int, so you're gonna have quite a good initiative check(along with being quite effective)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-24, 12:45 AM
Initiative is not an opposed ability/skill check, nor an attack roll, nor a saving throw.
It's dumb, but I don't think that by RAW this works


I posted this build on BG:
Dusk of the Swiftblade (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg243844#msg243844)

It's a rather good hit-and-run build with 8+dex+int+5(nerveskitter) to initiative, and the build relies a lot on dex and int, so you're gonna have quite a good initiative check(along with being quite effective)

Initiative is a Dex-based ability check, just like a Trip or Grapple check is a Strength-based ability check. A single roll against a set DC is what qualifies as not-an-opposed-roll. Multiple creatures rolling against each others' rolls is an opposed check, which is exactly what Initiative is. Therefore, Initiative is an opposed Dex-based ability check, and qualifies for Moment of Prescience.

Orran
2010-03-24, 01:51 AM
Opposed Checks

An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.


Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

It seems pretty clear that initiative is an opposed ability check, if anyone needed any citation.

hiryuu
2010-03-24, 04:20 AM
It seems pretty clear that initiative is an opposed ability check, if anyone needed any citation.

Devil's advocate: But initiative checks can't fail.

Gametime
2010-03-24, 10:49 AM
Devil's advocate: But initiative checks can't fail.

You can fail to go first, though.

Really, initiative checks are a weird case, because it's not just two people facing off. It's multiple people, and the exact results of each are relevant even when they don't win. There's no other check quite like it.