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Incorrect
2010-03-22, 03:49 AM
I am playing a warblade and just reached level 3. I began looking a bit more on my build and noticed that I might benefit from a bit of multiclassing.
A level of swordsage and something else would synergize very well with warblade. My DM turned Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian down, saying Pounce was too powerfull, so now Im wondering if anyone had some advise for me. Right now my build looks like this:

Warblade 3 / X 1 / Swordsage 1 / Warblade....

This should give me 6 maneuvers known from swordsage as level 2 maneuvers.
My Wis bonus is negative so I wouldent benefit from Swordsage 2.

Im considering fighter, trading in towershield for exotic shield (RoS) but does anyone have better ideas?

gorfnab
2010-03-22, 04:00 AM
Depending on what feats you have taken, the level of swordsage will at least get you part way to qualifying for Master of Nine. If you could list what feats you have taken already and an idea of what you want to do with the rest of the build, we may be able to help you a bit more.

Incorrect
2010-03-22, 04:18 AM
I am the sole melee guy in the party, the rest are casters (and a bard), so at these levels Im pretty much responsible for keeping the others alive.
I would like to be able to keep supplying battlefield controle, while dealing decent damage.

I took EWP as my only feat, and enjoy shuffling it around and using different Exotic weapons, though a spiked chain is my weapon of choice. Usually for tripping.
I haven't settled on my lvl 3 feat yet, though Combat Reflexes would be nice.

gorfnab
2010-03-22, 04:52 AM
I took EWP as my only feat, and enjoy shuffling it around and using different Exotic weapons, though a spiked chain is my weapon of choice. Usually for tripping.
I haven't settled on my lvl 3 feat yet, though Combat Reflexes would be nice.

Warblades can be great for tripping with just a few tweaks. Look into the feats Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Stand Still (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Stand_Still), Mage Slayer (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mage_Slayer), Pierce Magical Protection (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pierce_Magical_Protection),Combat Reflexes, Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB), Robilar's Gambit (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Robilar~s_Gambit), and Karmic Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Karmic_Strike). Picking up 2 levels of Crusader for levels 7 and 8 will net you some minor healing maneuvers and the stance Thicket of Blades which will really let you lock down opponents when combined with tripping.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-22, 04:58 AM
Master of the Nine sucks and is a huge trap. Avoid it.


First of all, why are you using a tower shield? Did you actually waste a feat on that?



Second, Warblade Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4408.0) and Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.0). The second link is more thorough on the Tome of Battle classes and has good info on which maneuvers, stances, etc. to look out for.

2 levels of fighter would get you 2 fighter feats. 2 levels of some type of barbarian would get you a speed increase and some type of extra rage abilities. One feat would increase that rage ability to 3 times per day.

Whirling Frenzy or whatever it's called from Unearthed Arcana is pretty great. There are some other good options spelled out in the Consolidated Barbarian Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2502.0).

Swordsage is a great class to dip into at some point, but usually people do it to grab some nifty stances. You might want to wait till later on and grab one specific good stance.


Tell us more about what feats you've already taken and what your build is. What race are you? If you're a small sized race then some of the builds are slightly different. If you're using a tower shield I'm guessing you wasted a feat to use that and are using a one-handed weapon? We could use some more info.


~~

Lots of players use warblades with a reach weapon so they can use tripping and lockdown techniques against enemies. If that's your thing then you should pick out feats and a multiclass based on that. (Robilar's Gambit, Shocktrooper, a tuom if allowed or grab the spiked chain proficiency etc.) If you're like me and would rather play non-reach warblade then those links will have info on that too.

Gnaritas
2010-03-22, 05:40 AM
What race are you and does your group enforce Multiclass-XP-penalties?

Other than that, consider straight Warblade, you do get to the higher maneuvers faster that way, though you only lose 1 ML for every 2 classes you "splash" in there.

A Swordsage might give you some nice things, but it also costs you a BAB, some hitpoints and like i said, maneuver progression.

My Wis bonus is negative so I wouldent benefit from Swordsage 2.

Well taking Swordsage 2 at level 8 after having Warblade 6/Swordsage 1 gives you a 3rd level stance, an extra 3rd level maneuver known and this time it's full BAB.
Not too shabby. At least comparable to taking Fighter 1 at that point, in my opinion better.

Runestar
2010-03-22, 06:02 AM
What's so bad about master of nine? Apart from the steep prerequisites, I feel it complements a warblade fairly well.

Darrin
2010-03-22, 07:43 AM
What's so bad about master of nine? Apart from the steep prerequisites, I feel it complements a warblade fairly well.

For Warblades, it requires six feats, out of which *two* of them are somewhat useful. For a straight warblade that isn't dipping into something else, the feat cost is too high. It also dings up your BAB a bit. Unless you need Mo9 for a specific high-level combo, a straight Warblade is still pretty darned powerful. If you really need something in Devoted Spirit or Shadow Hand, spending 3 feats on Martial Study/Stance may work out better in the long run... lets a Warblade 20 keep its full BAB and capstone ability.

Master_Rahl22
2010-03-22, 07:51 AM
I usually like Master of Nine when I'm going with Unarmed Swordsage, since I'll already have Improved Unarmed Strike and Adaptive Style is mandatory for Swordsages anyway. At that point, I just grab Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight with flaws/human bonus feat and I'm ready for all those tasty maneuvers as soon as I meet the skill requirements.

To the OP, you might consider Crusader instead of Swordsage as your dip. One level of Crusader gets you 5 manuevers and a stance with some minor healing and leader-ish type abilities, plus Steely Resolve 5. If you do that, you should definitely save the second level of Crusader for after you have 4 levels in any other classes so you can grab Thicket of Blades for your stance at Crusader 2. If you want to take more levels of a non-Warblade class, consider sticking with Crusader. Maneuvers like Iron Guard's Glare and Defensive Rebuke let you punish enemies for attacking your allies, or at least make it harder for them to do it.

If you're set on the Swordsage dip, consider the X Throw Setting Sun maneuvers, since you like to trip. Shadow Blade Technique is great for boosting accuracy since you roll twice and use the one you want. Desert Wind is widely regarded as one of the weaker schools since fire is the most common resistance, and with a party full of casters I'd avoid it. I love Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, so you could use your Swordsage dip to grab a few more of those maneuvers too.

Last Laugh
2010-03-22, 08:30 AM
If you are using a reach weapon that combat reflexes is awesome. I've made many DMs angry with me just because no one could get into melee range. Knight (PhBII) is a pretty nifty class, If you dip 3 levels the area you threaten becomes difficult terrain (among other things you can't be charged) and has an ability which keeps mooks from tumbling past you to stab the party wizard. (who should be enlarging you constantly)

Gnaritas
2010-03-22, 08:39 AM
If you do that, you should definitely save the second level of Crusader for after you have 4 levels in any other classes so you can grab Thicket of Blades for your stance at Crusader 2.

You mean 6 levels in any other class, right?

Person_Man
2010-03-22, 10:11 AM
I would stick with strait Warblade. Having 3rd level maneuvers/stances at 5th level is a lot better then having a bunch of 2nd level maneuvers, and full BAB is needed if you want a meaningful Power Attack combo at 6th level. Plus you get a bonus feat at 5th level and eventually the highly useful Battle Skill at 11th level.

If you're looking for battlefield control, here's my melee combo guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026). The best option for you depends on your current build. What are your feats and stats?

Also, your DM might not realize this, but Tome of Battle builds already have access to Pounce and free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) via the Sudden Leap, White Raven Tactics, Faith Unswerving, Pouncing Charge, Press the Advantage, Desert Tempest, Quicksilver Motion, and Evasive Reflexes. There are also a variety of ways to improve your reach. (Sufficiently big reach is sometimes more powerful the Pounce, as it lets you make a full attack and improves your threatened area, giving you more AoO and other special combos). Or you can just take Quickdraw and finish off attack routines with thrown weapons. Honestly, there's no reason you shouldn't be making a full attack every turn.

Greenish
2010-03-22, 10:14 AM
Honestly, there's no reason you shouldn't be making a full attack every turn.Except strikes. :smalltongue:

Draz74
2010-03-22, 11:55 AM
I love Warblade/Master of Nine myself. Can't see why it would be a "trap." If you want to go that route (or possibly even if you don't), I recommend your other level dip be Fighter. Ranged weapon proficiencies, heavy armor proficiency, tower shield proficiency (meh), and a bonus feat ... not bad.

I approve of your multiclassing plan rather than "sticking with pure Warblade," as it's very nice to get your second Warblade stance as a Level 3 stance instead of a Level 1.

If you don't want Fighter, and your DM isn't allowing a cheesy Barbarian dip ... hmmm. Rogue? Factotum, if your INT is really high, or Marshal if your CHA is really high? Barbarian anyway? (Even without Pounce, it's not bad. Whirling Frenzy 1/day and Fast Movement, and ranged weapon profs.)

Before you take Combat Reflexes as a normal feat, hold on and realize that you're going to get a few bonus feats anyway, and Combat Reflexes is probably the best feat on the menu. So if you're going to stick with Warblade, wait for Warblade 5 to pick up Combat Reflexes. This advice is possibly nullified if you're going for Master of Nine, though. Because then, you'll probably want to spend your first two bonus feats on Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative.

Person_Man
2010-03-22, 01:16 PM
Except strikes. :smalltongue:

True enough. Though I would argue that the expected damage from a full attack is usually (though not always) higher then the expected damage from the Standard Action Strikes available. This is especially true around ECL 6+, when a moderately optimized melee build can deal massive damage with Power Attack/Leap Attack and damage multipliers. So unless the Standard Action Strike in question has some highly useful secondary effect AND you are fighting something that you can't reasonably kill with a full attack, a full attack is often a better option. It also means that you can have more Full Round Strikes (which give you a full attack + something else) and Counters.

But as always, it depends on the specific build.



I love Warblade/Master of Nine myself. Can't see why it would be a "trap."

I consider it a trap because it lacks full BAB, has 6 (!) mediocre feats as pre-reqs, the class abilities are also mediocre, and most importantly there is no real combo/synergy to having maneuvers/stances from all the disciplines,

Critical
2010-03-22, 02:02 PM
Show the DM how overpowered casters are. Then, he will allow Lion Totem Barbarian.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-22, 02:09 PM
I'll post this:

Warblade makes an excellent Inspiration character. No seriously.

Here's how you do it:

1. Take a dragonblooded race (I prefer Silverbrow Human, but any will do)
2. Take level dips into marshall (inspire courage variant) or bard
3. Take White Raven Inspiration and Dragonfire Inspiration
4. Go to town amping your party and making your foes cry

Runestar
2010-03-22, 05:41 PM
I consider it a trap because it lacks full BAB, has 6 (!) mediocre feats as pre-reqs, the class abilities are also mediocre, and most importantly there is no real combo/synergy to having maneuvers/stances from all the disciplines,

At 5th lv, getting +2 to-hit on strikes sorta makes up for the loss of +2 bab. Two of the requisite feats are warblade bonus feats, so you really need to spring for only 4 feats. IUS is a prereq for snap kick and superior unarmed strike. I will be picking up adaptive style as a warblade anyways. Yeah, dodge still stinks...:smallmad:

For me, the biggest draw is the massive number of maneuvers readied the Mo9 adds to the warblade. At warblade 15, you normally get 6 readied, with a 7th at lv20. For a warblade15/Mo9 5, you can ready 11 maneuvers!

Also, I don't really think of getting maneuvers from 9 stances, probably just focusing on 2-3 main disciplines, and rounding them out with choice maneuvers from the others. I agree that you probably cannot afford to focus evenly amongst all or most of them. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 05:49 PM
At 5th lv, getting +2 to-hit on strikes sorta makes up for the loss of +2 bab. Two of the requisite feats are warblade bonus feats, so you really need to spring for only 4 feats. IUS is a prereq for snap kick and superior unarmed strike. I will be picking up adaptive style as a warblade anyways. Yeah, dodge still stinks...:smallmad:

For me, the biggest draw is the massive number of maneuvers readied the Mo9 adds to the warblade. At warblade 15, you normally get 6 readied, with a 7th at lv20. For a warblade15/Mo9 5, you can ready 11 maneuvers!

Also, I don't really think of getting maneuvers from 9 stances, probably just focusing on 2-3 main disciplines, and rounding them out with choice maneuvers from the others. I agree that you probably cannot afford to focus evenly amongst all or most of them. :smallsmile:

Let's not forget the sexiness of Counter Stance; basically it allows you to switch stances as a free action. With the number of stances you have at the point (especially with access to stuff like Stance of Alacrity, Immortal Fortitude (which you can restart as a free action thanks to Counter Stance too) and so on), this can be a very powerful ability indeed. Free actions are always some good.

And Mastery of the Nine; there are lots of good low-level Counters in various schools so it's fully plausible that you happen to have a maneuver from most schools prepared; at that point you can just use Mastery of the Nine for some nice damage bonus on multiattack Strikes like Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades, Pouncing Charge and any Charge if you have inherent Pounce.

Draz74
2010-03-23, 02:41 AM
I consider it a trap because it lacks full BAB, has 6 (!) mediocre feats as pre-reqs, the class abilities are also mediocre, and most importantly there is no real combo/synergy to having maneuvers/stances from all the disciplines,

What Runestar and Eldariel said. Counter Stance and +5 Readied Maneuvers are not mediocre. And access to cherry-pick the best maneuvers from non-Warblade disciplines is very nice too.

And I keep seeing this claim of six prereq feats. Adaptive Style, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Blind-Fight, Dodge; that's only five. Yeah. Did you mean that you also need Martial Study? Because you don't, if you do a bit of multiclassing like the OP is considering.

Those five mediocre prereq feats aren't really so painful when:
- Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight come from Warblade bonus feats
- A dipped level of Swordsage gets you a great big variety of other-disciplinie low-level maneuvers, and Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and lets you take Desert Wind Dodge instead of normal Dodge.

So really, Adaptive Style is the only feat you're taking in the normal way. And, well, it's not exactly sucky.

... I admit, though, the main reason I love this build is just because of the awesome "true martial arts master" flavor, especially when you focus on taking a Warblade and inserting a healthy dose of Setting Sun. (Baffling Defense, Shifting Defense, and Fool's Strike = pure awesome.)

Runestar
2010-03-23, 04:40 AM
I think there is a monk variant which grants dodge and mobility for its bonus feats, so that are 2 more feats taken care of, if you are willing to go for a warblade/monk/swordsage/master of nine hybrid. :smallsmile:


And access to cherry-pick the best maneuvers from non-Warblade disciplines is very nice too.

One issue could be that you have problems qualifying for the higher lv maneuvers, because you still need to work your way up the maneuver chain (unless you have already spent martial study feats).

For example, while I could choose desert wind, shadow hand or devoted defender maneuvers with my warblade/Mo9, I should only be able to pick the lowest lv ones with no/few prereqs. It would be very difficult for me to take the higher-end ones like immortal fortitude or strike of righteous vitality right away.

But aura of law is so sweet! Being able to take 11 on any check 1/round!!! :smallamused:


Yeah. Did you mean that you also need Martial Study? Because you don't, if you do a bit of multiclassing like the OP is considering.

To be fair, I think we were discussing the feasibility of master of nine from a pure warblade's perspective. :smalltongue:

Sure, warblade's dual stance is really neat, but with some effort, counter stance can be just as good (you initiate a counter, switch to stance of alacrity, counter again, switch back to original/different stance). :smallbiggrin:

Darrin
2010-03-23, 07:48 AM
I think there is a monk variant which grants dodge and mobility for its bonus feats, so that are 2 more feats taken care of, if you are willing to go for a warblade/monk/swordsage/master of nine hybrid. :smallsmile:


A dip into cleric can get you Blind-Fight (Darkness/Shadow domain) and Improved Initiative (Time domain), although both of those are available as Warblade bonus feats. While a dip into monk can get you two feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge), Unarmed Swordsage can get one of those, and a 2-level fighter dip can get you two feats without losing any BAB. (I've picked up a few things on optimizing Mo9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137260).)

My main beef with the Mo9 feats is most of the feats have absolutely nothing to do with being a Mo9. Yes, Imp. Init, Blind-Fight, or Dodge might be useful for anyone, but why does this help you learn maneuvers from different disciplines? Feels like "nuisance requirements".

Person_Man
2010-03-23, 09:11 AM
At 5th lv, getting +2 to-hit on strikes sorta makes up for the loss of +2 bab.

No, it doesn't. You lose an iterative attack, and because of the loss of BAB and the fact that you usually need levels of Swordsage (another 3/4 BAB class) and you have so many pre-reqs means that Power Attack combos are out.


Two of the requisite feats are warblade bonus feats, so you really need to spring for only 4 feats. IUS is a prereq for snap kick and superior unarmed strike. I will be picking up adaptive style as a warblade anyways. Yeah, dodge still stinks...:smallmad:

Keep in mind that every time you spend a feat on A, it means that you don't spend a feat on B. Most of the Mo9 pre-reqs aren't bad, and it's possible that a 20th level Swordsage or Warblade would pick similar feats. It's just that the pre-reqs don't really give you any particular combo.


For me, the biggest draw is the massive number of maneuvers readied the Mo9 adds to the warblade. At warblade 15, you normally get 6 readied, with a 7th at lv20. For a warblade15/Mo9 5, you can ready 11 maneuvers!

True enough. But how often do you use 11 maneuvers in one combat? In my experience, a high level encounter is usually decided in the first round, and lasts no more then 4ish rounds. And if you truly value flexibility, then a Swordsage 20 can ready 12 maneuvers. Barring Champion of Legacy shenanigans, is there any particular and worthwhile constellation of maneuvers and stances that a Mo9 has access to that a Swordsage 20 or Swordsage 17/Warblade 3 (or some similar multiclass combo) can't reasonably duplicate?


And I keep seeing this claim of six prereq feats. Adaptive Style, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Blind-Fight, Dodge; that's only five. Yeah. Did you mean that you also need Martial Study? Because you don't, if you do a bit of multiclassing like the OP is considering.

Yes, I assume that you will have to take Martial Study. But you are correct that this can be avoided by multi-classing. But keep in mind that multiclassing delays your maneuver progression.


BTW, I'm not arguing that Mo9 is bad. The limited Duel Stance 3 levels earlier then the Warblade plus Counter Stance and the helpful bonuses are nifty. I'm just saying that most of what a Mo9 build can do, a strait Swordsage or Warblade can usually do better.

On a similar note, what do people think of Eternal Blade? It's nifty to get your Int bonus to everything, and Island in Time is pretty awesome. But every time I read it I feel like it's just a nerfed Swiftblade.

Darrin
2010-03-23, 09:51 AM
On a similar note, what do people think of Eternal Blade? It's nifty to get your Int bonus to everything, and Island in Time is pretty awesome. But every time I read it I feel like it's just a nerfed Swiftblade.

The BAB requirement annoys the heck out of me. If you dip into anything less than full BAB, you are locked out of the capstone ability, which is one of the only things that makes the slower maneuver progression (and to some extent the entire PrC) worth enduring. I tend to think of the "elf-only" requirement as a feat tax, since humans/azurin/strongheart halflings can't get into it, although if Dark Chaos Shuffle is allowed then that's not really a problem.

Giving Warblades access to Devoted Spirit is a nice perk, but so far I haven't really run across a build where Martial Study or a Crusader/RKV dip wasn't better. For straight Warblades, it prevents them from getting Dual Stance, and I don't think Island in Time 1/day is quite worth losing that.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 09:57 AM
No, it doesn't. You lose an iterative attack, and because of the loss of BAB and the fact that you usually need levels of Swordsage (another 3/4 BAB class) and you have so many pre-reqs means that Power Attack combos are out.

Generally a ToB character has enough sources of bonuses To Hit that you can still use PA to reasonable efficiency, more-so if you have Shock Trooper-line or similars. Losing 2 points of BAB does reduce their efficiency, but only by ~8-16 points in the long run. You generally still deal enough to kill things you hit with 'em. Also, maneuvers can provide bonuses to hit which can somewhat negate the BAB hit.


Keep in mind that every time you spend a feat on A, it means that you don't spend a feat on B. Most of the Mo9 pre-reqs aren't bad, and it's possible that a 20th level Swordsage or Warblade would pick similar feats. It's just that the pre-reqs don't really give you any particular combo.

Generally though, you can use the less worthwhile Warblade-bonuses and a free feat from Swordsage to free up your normal feat slots. I'm pretty certain Warblade X/UA SS 1 or 2 is the best entry for Mot9 and by Fractionals, that does not even lose any extra BAB.


True enough. But how often do you use 11 maneuvers in one combat? In my experience, a high level encounter is usually decided in the first round, and lasts no more then 4ish rounds. And if you truly value flexibility, then a Swordsage 20 can ready 12 maneuvers. Barring Champion of Legacy shenanigans, is there any particular and worthwhile constellation of maneuvers and stances that a Mo9 has access to that a Swordsage 20 or Swordsage 17/Warblade 3 (or some similar multiclass combo) can't reasonably duplicate?

It's still a Warblade with regards to PA and it's got action advantage over both, SS and SS/Warblade with Counter Stance and 10 round/level Dual Stance, a very potent combination. It also, most importantly, has access to any school. Devoted Spirit in particular has relatively low entry prerequisites and extremely potent high-level maneuvers (Strike of Righteous Vitality, Alignment Charges, Aura of X, Greater Divine Surge, etc.) and ones that are only available to high-level Crusaders by default. Getting those maneuvers in Warblade/SS chassis is quite potent; then you get high-level Devoted Spirit/Iron Heart/White Raven/Setting Sun (some of the high-level counters are truly brutal) in one character.

And the 11-maneuver-thing's main attraction is having the right maneuver prepared. Having to stop to switch around your maneuvers can be lethal in the high-level combat, but having access to all save-negation maneuvers AND various Counters AND varied Strike-based offense tends to solve that problem quite handily. Also, high-level combat can actually last quite a while when starting to deal with immediate action protections and Contingencies, along with Revivify-type effects in large team conflicts. When everyone is at full power in one standard action and all it takes is a swift action to bring a downed ally back and regrouping takes one swift action, a lot of crap can happen.


Yes, I assume that you will have to take Martial Study. But you are correct that this can be avoided by multi-classing. But keep in mind that multiclassing delays your maneuver progression.

You can generally afford one level of maneuver progression delay easily due to the way ToB classes multiclass. Losing one caster level was never the end of the world for Wizards (though nothing done lightly either, but that's because of how good high-level spells are) thanks to still getting there on level 18, and adepts can lose two levels and still get there on level 18; not to mention, 9th level maneuvers aren't as critical to your success as 9th level spells.


BTW, I'm not arguing that Mo9 is bad. The limited Duel Stance 3 levels earlier then the Warblade plus Counter Stance and the helpful bonuses are nifty. I'm just saying that most of what a Mo9 build can do, a strait Swordsage or Warblade can usually do better.

Mo9 really fills its own niché; you need to take advantage of the school access, but that's easily enough done, and its own class features are absolutely stellar. Medium BAB is the drawback of all this, but if you can enter it, I do suggest you do as the class just gives you a ton if you know what you're doing.


On a similar note, what do people think of Eternal Blade? It's nifty to get your Int bonus to everything, and Island in Time is pretty awesome. But every time I read it I feel like it's just a nerfed Swiftblade.

It's a great class. Really, no, it's no Wizard but it's closest you'll ever get. Island in Time is better than Greater Celerity as you maintain your swift action after the turn and it also enables some really crazy multiaction novas like Full-Round Action > Island in Time > Full-round Action > Moment of Alacrity (provided you were behind on initiative) > Full-round Action > Belt of Battle > Full-Round Action.

It can effectively add an extra full-round action to your novas on your own turn, but its real power is of course the interrupt potential of getting a full-round action whenever without using your Immediate Action. Swiftblade is a different beast entirely; it has tons of action advantage, but only on its own turn. Being able to react to casting a spell or whatever with Time Stands Still on a bow is just...incredibly efficient.

If we're assuming Celerity-line as written isn't allowed (that is, the "Daze" is turned into unavoidable or the whole spell-line is just banned or something), this is actually a trick casters cannot replicate, and even if Celerity is allowed, you still end up one Immediate Action ahead. One of the very few ways a martialist can gain such an advantage over casters and one of the very few martial classes I'd consider worth playing in 20-game (the school access is incredible too; Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and White Raven?! That's like the Who's Who of ToB).

Also, the various Insights mean you walk about very well defended outside encounters (you prolly have Uncanny Dodge from Warblade so you can keep Total Defense + Int to AC out of combat and yeah), Eternal Training is just incredible to call whichever Diamond Mind maneuver you happen to need at any moment (or recall Time Stands Still for an encore) and if that's not needed, Int to Attacks & Damage isn't bad either. Oh, and Eternal Knowledge allows you to make decent use of Knowledge Devotion in addition to being just generally useful.

I really like the PrC if that much wasn't apparent.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-23, 10:13 AM
It's a great class. Really, no, it's no Wizard but it's closest you'll ever get. Island in Time is better than Greater Celerity as you maintain your swift action after the turn and it also enables some really crazy multiaction novas like Full-Round Action > Island in Time > Full-round Action > Moment of Alacrity (provided you were behind on initiative) > Full-round Action > Belt of Battle > Full-Round Action.

It can effectively add an extra full-round action to your novas on your own turn, but its real power is of course the interrupt potential of getting a full-round action whenever without using your Immediate Action. Swiftblade is a different beast entirely; it has tons of action advantage, but only on its own turn. Being able to react to casting a spell or whatever with Time Stands Still on a bow is just...incredibly efficient.

If we're assuming Celerity-line as written isn't allowed (that is, the "Daze" is turned into unavoidable or the whole spell-line is just banned or something), this is actually a trick casters cannot replicate, and even if Celerity is allowed, you still end up one Immediate Action ahead. One of the very few ways a martialist can gain such an advantage over casters and one of the very few martial classes I'd consider worth playing in 20-game (the school access is incredible too; Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and White Raven?! That's like the Who's Who of ToB).

Also, the various Insights mean you walk about very well defended outside encounters (you prolly have Uncanny Dodge from Warblade so you can keep Total Defense + Int to AC out of combat and yeah), Eternal Training is just incredible to call whichever Diamond Mind maneuver you happen to need at any moment (or recall Time Stands Still for an encore) and if that's not needed, Int to Attacks & Damage isn't bad either. Oh, and Eternal Knowledge allows you to make decent use of Knowledge Devotion in addition to being just generally useful.

I really like the PrC if that much wasn't apparent.

It's awesome, but too bad you have to be an elf! :smallfurious:

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 10:15 AM
It's awesome, but too bad you have to be an elf! :smallfurious:

I don't mind at all. I guess I've got you at a disadvantage here. Besides, you pretty much become Link as someone else pointed out previously (glowing ball of energy following you around, eternal hero, master swordsman, etc.) with that class; what other race could you possibly be?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-23, 10:25 AM
I don't mind at all. I guess I've got you at a disadvantage here. Besides, you pretty much become Link as someone else pointed out previously (glowing ball of energy following you around, eternal hero, master swordsman, etc.) with that class; what other race could you possibly be?

Hey, Listen!
Hey, Listen!
Hey, Listen!

I dunno, anything else?!? What if I wanted to be a shifter, or a sharakim, or warforged, or a lesser genasi? I'm just saying I hate racial pre-reqs.

Person_Man
2010-03-23, 10:57 AM
The BAB requirement annoys the heck out of me. If you dip into anything less than full BAB, you are locked out of the capstone ability, which is one of the only things that makes the slower maneuver progression (and to some extent the entire PrC) worth enduring. I tend to think of the "elf-only" requirement as a feat tax, since humans/azurin/strongheart halflings can't get into it, although if Dark Chaos Shuffle is allowed then that's not really a problem.

Giving Warblades access to Devoted Spirit is a nice perk, but so far I haven't really run across a build where Martial Study or a Crusader/RKV dip wasn't better. For straight Warblades, it prevents them from getting Dual Stance, and I don't think Island in Time 1/day is quite worth losing that.

In general I agree with your assessment. But note that Island in Time is once per encounter unless they errata'd it. So the type of action advantage super nova that Eldariel describes is available every combat (if you're 20th level).

On the other hand, while the Eternal Blade gains it's Int bonus to a bunch of things as a Swift Action, you give up the Warblade's always on Int bonus to opposed checks and AoO, which is far more valuable if your goal is battlefield control.

Now that I think about it, if a DM allowed LA buyoff, a Drow Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 would be a solid choice. With your SR, action advantage, and an excellent mix disciplines, you'd probably be one of the stronger non-caster builds available. Of course if your DM allowed LA buyoff, there are much better things you could do with the reduced cost +2 LA.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 01:09 PM
Note that you can generally afford 2-4 levels of non-casters quite well. Like, Warblade 8/Crusader 2 gets solid number of base maneuvers to access all the higher level ones he wants. And if you can add stuff like Barbarian, Ranger or Fighter as 1-level dips as you desire.