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View Full Version : Spontanous caster(sorc, bards) and Metamagic feats.



dota600
2010-03-22, 06:01 AM
I do not understand how this work. All I get is that a Sorcerer will cast a spell on the spot thus he can metamagic spells on the spot, but it eats an action, the more metamagic you throw, the slower it will cast.

If I use quickened, then it will eat a whole turn. then...... yeah.

Forgive me for my ignorance(and weak engrish) but I need help so that I can grasp the idea.

And is rapid-metamagic(feat from complete mage) negate the effect of this?

Eclipse
2010-03-22, 06:19 AM
It does take more of an action to cast a metamagic spell as a sorcerer, but it's not as bad as I once thought. Applying a metamagic feat to a spell makes it so casting takes the same length of time as making a full attack does. Basically, you don't get your move action when casting a spontaneous metamagic spell. If you're playing 3.x, you don't get to use quicken spell without finding a way to mitigate the penalty for metamagic. In Pathfinder, quicken spell is an exception to the rule, and can be used as normal by spontaneous casters. I used this as a houserule in 3.x as well, because I thought it was positively silly that sorcerers couldn't cast quickened spells.

Relevant info is here: Cast a Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundCastaSpell)

Look at the metamagic subheading, since casting a metamagic spell as a full round action is different from casting a 1 round spell as a full round action. Yes, the terminology is wonky.

Rapid metamagic is indeed one way people use to negate this. Another is using an alternative class feature, but I don't remember the book it's in. I think PHB II though. Let's you trade your familiar for the ability to use metamagic without increasing casting time a set number of times per day.

RebelRogue
2010-03-22, 06:25 AM
As noted, in core spontaneous metamagic is always a full round action, including Quicken spell which makes the Feat useless (unless paired with Arcane Preparation). Some people find this silly, others not. I usually enforce it, but I can see why some would choose not to.

Optimystik
2010-03-22, 06:39 AM
If I use quickened, then it will eat a whole turn. then...... yeah.

Without some way to remove the casting time penalty, you cannot quicken your spells as a spontaneous caster. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)


And is rapid-metamagic(feat from complete mage) negate the effect of this?

Yes, as does the "Metamagic Specialist" variant from PHB2 (sorcerers only.)

dota600
2010-03-22, 06:43 AM
arcane preparation? I know that is a feat but I forget what it does and where it is to be found.

Okey, some set questions that I need to clear up because of the fact that I always get lost when I think about it.

1. Does casting a sorc/bard spell eat a higher spell slot when you use a metamagic feat on it or is it not(heighten spell)?

2. Is throwing three metamagic spells on one go(silent, still, heightened) eat three rounds or more?

3. As above question, all of those rounds wasted are negated by the rapid metamagic feat, Yes?

Douglas
2010-03-22, 06:55 AM
1. Does casting a sorc/bard spell eat a higher spell slot when you use a metamagic feat on it or is it not(heighten spell)?
It uses the same level spell slot as a wizard would. If you cast an Empowered Fireball, it takes a 5th level slot just like it would for any other caster.


2. Is throwing three metamagic spells on one go(silent, still, heightened) eat three rounds or more?
No. The casting time depends on whether you are using metamagic at all, not on how many metamagics you are using. If a spontaneous caster casts Fireball, it takes a standard action. If a spontaneous caster casts Empowered Fireball, it takes a full round action instead. If the same spontaneous caster casts Empowered Maximized Twinned Energy Substituted Fireball (ignoring that this would normally require a spell slot higher than 9th level), it would still take only a single full round action.



3. As above question, all of those rounds wasted are negated by the rapid metamagic feat, Yes?
No rounds are wasted anyway, but the single move action that would be wasted does get negated by Rapid Metamagic.

Eclipse
2010-03-22, 06:58 AM
arcane preparation? I know that is a feat but I forget what it does and where it is to be found.

Okey, some set questions that I need to clear up because of the fact that I always get lost when I think about it.

1. Does casting a sorc/bard spell eat a higher spell slot when you use a metamagic feat on it or is it not(heighten spell)?

2. Is throwing three metamagic spells on one go(silent, still, heightened) eat three rounds or more?

3. As above question, all of those rounds wasted are negated by the rapid metamagic feat, Yes?

1. Yes, it does. Unless the feat doesn't eat one up in the first place, such as energy substitution.

2. No, applying any number of metamagic feats makes a spell that takes a standard action to cast a full round action instead. For spells with a 1 round+ casting time, you add a single full round action instead. For any number of metamagic feats applied to a single spell.

3. Yes, it works the same way regardless of how many feats you apply.

dota600
2010-03-22, 07:28 AM
Okey... wow, that is like removing a heavy fog in my mind. Now I just need to remove this small doubt before I can say that my mind is clear.

Using a quicken metamagic as a sorcerer makes the spell casting a full-round action, thus negating the idea of the word "quicken". Rapid-metamagic makes casting a metamagic spell as a sorc a "standard action"(am I correct?).

So when I use a quicken metamagic as a sorc with rapid metamagic. I effectively cast a quicken but I am left with just a move action which makes the quicken meta just like.... meh....

I don't know, I just need to clear this up since I am still confused if I as a Sorc/bard is able to use a quicken metamagic if I have rapid metamagic. >.<

senrath
2010-03-22, 07:37 AM
You CANNOT use Quicken on spontaneous spells. It says so right in the feat description.

Optimystik
2010-03-22, 07:38 AM
I don't know, I just need to clear this up since I am still confused if I as a Sorc/bard is able to use a quicken metamagic if I have rapid metamagic. >.<

They can. RMM is applied first.

Think of it this way: All Rapid Metamagic does is make adding metamagic for sorcerers exactly like it is for Wizards. The only difference is that you don't have to apply it at the beginning of the day.

So RMM reduces the full-round to a standard action. This makes it eligible for Quicken Spell, which reduces it again, down to a swift/immediate action.

On each of your turns, you get 1 move, 1 standard, 1 swift, and many free actions. A quickened spell uses your swift, leaving you with a move and a standard.

Therefore, a sorcerer with RMM can move, cast a swift spell, and then cast a standard spell - just like a wizard can.


You CANNOT use Quicken on spontaneous spells. It says so right in the feat description.

...unless you have Rapid Metamagic. This overrides the prohibition listed in Quicken Spell. Lets not make this any more confusing...

taltamir
2010-03-22, 07:39 AM
the "metamagic sorcerer" alternate class feature lets you trade your familiar for the ability to cast metamagic without the time penalty. you can get your familiar back with a single feat "take familiar" so basically it costs you a feat.

dota600
2010-03-22, 07:39 AM
Okey.... I don't know, but I am getting it(the quicken metamagic part)...

taltamir
2010-03-22, 07:41 AM
This confuses me evenmore. >.<

what is there to be confused? as written sorcerers suck for metamagic unless they do something to mitigate that weakness. and the "metamagic specialist" alternate class feature fixes that.

senrath
2010-03-22, 07:42 AM
Ignore me, I'm wrong. I misread the Special clause in Quicken.

Douglas
2010-03-22, 07:42 AM
Using a quicken metamagic as a sorcerer makes the spell casting a full-round action, thus negating the idea of the word "quicken". Rapid-metamagic makes casting a metamagic spell as a sorc a "standard action"(am I correct?).
Rapid Metamagic does not make casting a metamagic spell a standard action, it makes it take the spell's normal casting time. If altered by Quicken Spell, that means a swift action.


You CANNOT use Quicken on spontaneous spells. It says so right in the feat description.
It also explicitly gives a specific reason for this restriction. Rapid Metamagic removes that reason, so the restriction is gone too.


That is incorrect, unless an errata changed how either Quicken or Rapid Metamagic works. Quicken states that it cannot be used on Spontaneous magic, and RMM doesn't state that you can use Quicken.
Quicken states that it cannot be used spontaneously because metamagic increases casting time to a full round action. That reason is every bit as much a part of the rule as the restriction itself is. Rapid Metamagic removes the increased casting time, rendering the reason no longer valid. Since the reason is no longer valid and is explicitly stated as part of the rule, the rule no longer applies.

Edit: Ninja'd by an edit. I'll leave my refutation here in case anyone else is confused about this.

Optimystik
2010-03-22, 07:46 AM
If you want a more specific ruling on the subject, here's PHB2's MM specialist variant:


Benefit: You can apply metamagic feats that you know without increasing the casting time. This benefit even lets you quicken your Sorcerer spells with the Quicken Spell feat.

dota600
2010-03-22, 07:47 AM
Rapid Metamagic does not make casting a metamagic spell a standard action, it makes it take the spell's normal casting time. If altered by Quicken Spell, that means a swift action.


It also explicitly gives a specific reason for this restriction. Rapid Metamagic removes that reason, so the restriction is gone too.

Wow. Though I have to waste 1 feat, it is good to know that this mess is cleared up now in front of me. Thanks for that. :smallbiggrin:

Last Laugh
2010-03-22, 08:21 AM
On each of your turns, you get 1 move, 1 standard, 1 swift, and many free actions. A quickened spell uses your swift, leaving you with a move and a standard.


Threadjacking aside, is this true? Are quickened spells swift actions or are they 1/round free actions? I've seen it printed both ways in various books.
The only difference would be that you could quicken a spell (as a free action) and then use your swift action to do something else useful.

Cyclocone
2010-03-22, 08:27 AM
Threadjacking aside, is this true? Are quickened spells swift actions or are they 1/round free actions? I've seen it printed both ways in various books.
The only difference would be that you could quicken a spell (as a free action) and then use your swift action to do something else useful.

Free Action quicken is a leftover from 3.0.

3.5, it's a Swift Action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions)

Last Laugh
2010-03-22, 08:37 AM
Free Action quicken is a leftover from 3.0.

Thanks a lot, I was recently planning on making a swiftblade and saw that it listed it as a free action, looked at Abjurant Champion and my head exploded.

dota600
2010-03-22, 09:07 AM
I myself am thinking of using song of arcane power(sublime chord on complete arcane) coupled with a rapid metamagic feat on a dominate person.

Or a song of arcane power with quickened dominate, and another Heightened dominate person. So that the bard can dominate two person with a heightened saving throw, in one turn. :smallbiggrin:

"The party heard a faint song around the alleyway, as your party turn around, they see a small figure singing gloomily. That is the time when one of them saw that the party's wizard, with a blank stare has already opened her spellbook with her finger already pointing at the paladin while the frenzied berserker's mouth is already frothing with anger as he raise his axe at the one who saw his rage."

I dont know if it will work(will it?), but that will be awesome. Absolute control. :D

Caphi
2010-03-22, 10:34 AM
I have a related question, then.

If one is using the Pathfinder version of Quicken Spell, the one that lets you do it spontaneously, and for some reason one doesn't have Rapid Metamagic, is it impossible and/or wasted if he wants to quicken and then apply another metamagic?

Eclipse
2010-03-22, 10:39 AM
I have a related question, then.

If one is using the Pathfinder version of Quicken Spell, the one that lets you do it spontaneously, and for some reason one doesn't have Rapid Metamagic, is it impossible and/or wasted if he wants to quicken and then apply another metamagic?

I'm not sure by the rules, but I personally would rule you can do it if you have the spell level to pull it off. Basically, I look at this as quicken spell overriding the added metamagic casting time (but not any other casting times longer than a standard action).

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-22, 02:03 PM
this is the direction my sorc is going right now.

we have been in this campaign for roughly a year now. alot of fun

sorc 6/ rog 3/ arcane trickster 3/ unseen seer 2

precise shot, spell penn, greater spell penn, enlarge spell, rapid metamagic, and silent spell

just hit 14 last session. took hunter's eye for my div spell for unseen seer.

quicken comes next. :smallcool: