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Mystic Muse
2010-03-22, 11:14 AM
well, I'm running a campaign with my cousins and I need some help. I'm trying to make my BBBEG (I already have a couple of BBEGs :smalltongue:) believable rather than a cheesy cartoon villain. The only problem is I can't think of much motivation he'd have. He's already Uber-powerful, he has A ton of uber-powerful minions and he's pretty much taken over the multiverse.

can Anybody help?

kladams707
2010-03-22, 11:16 AM
First question I suppose is what is he and does he have a background before he became a villain? or was he already big & bad.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-22, 11:23 AM
I feel like I might get lynched by a few people for saying this but, It's Asmodeus.

Kylarra
2010-03-22, 11:28 AM
Amusement is usually a good bet. He's already so powerful that he just likes pitting people against things because he can.

Vorpalbob
2010-03-22, 11:44 AM
Totally. Asmodeus, like any other demon, is secure in his power. He is eternal. He knows exactly what he can do, and he knows how far too far is. As such, he uses his powers to put other entities in difficult situations, then watches them to see what they do. This is almost precisely the reason Undermountain was built. oh, Halaster you crazy guy!

I would play Asmodeus as bored and detached, being so used to everyone quivering in fear at the very sight of him that he doesn't really take pleasure from it anymore (I mean, he's had millenia to built up his reputation). Any group of adventurers who opposes him will not be the first, and he will treat them just like the others; he puts them in dangerous situations and be entertained by it.

Or, for more fun, play him like a big spoiled kid. Intelligent and cunning, but whiny and immature, used to blasting people to get what he wants.

Devils_Blind
2010-03-22, 12:22 PM
Are you looking for specific plot ideas, or a way of portraying him convincingly?

My biggest worry about sending player against him is that he is, pretty much by definition unkillable. He knows when you are plotting, and when your plans are fake. He's fought off every force of good, and make every devil break. By the character description, even if your players get to him, its because it serves his plans. He has hidden himself away and is letting them fight his double, even kill it, just so he can who grabs the power in hell while he bides his time before returning. They great artifact they acquired that lets them defeat him? He's going to let them use it, and then take it and use it to assault Celestia. If the characters actually get to fight him, then they're part of the plans. If they win, its gets kinda unbelievable.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-22, 12:29 PM
Are you looking for specific plot ideas, or a way of portraying him convincingly?


A way of portraying him convincingly. I don't intend the characters to actually fight him. If they fight anything it'll be his Avatar.

The one they'll be killing is Vecna.:smalltongue: maybe a demon lord or Arch devil too.

(in my campaign he's going to die and he's going to stay dead.. get over it Volkov.)

This campaign is 4th edition in terms of mechanics but 3.5 in terms of fluff. Except Bahamut and Tiamat are Major deities.

Devils_Blind
2010-03-22, 12:59 PM
Unless he plans on killing the characters, there's no reason not to be nice to them. Maybe if he shows them evil isn't all that bad, they'll even fall, and hey, free souls. At the very least, they may spread doubts amongst the population when they go home to share their story.

"So, may I ask, why did you come here?"
"To fight the evil _____!"
"Of course. In that case, you might want this weapon of weaponyness. He's down that hall, through the door, follow the second star to the right, and go straight on till morning."
"Wait, why are you helping us? What's the catch?"
"I've always found it pays to be nice to the help. Of course, your granddaughter is going to single handedly win me the Blood War. And then lead my armies into Celestia, where they will fail, but I'll capture the minor artifact Z."
"...Wait, no. What!"
"Of course, if the idea offends you, you could always just stay here. With me. Forever. :smallamused: Is there anything else my guests would ask of me?"

If anyone every tries to interrupt you, just keep talking. They roll an attack? Ignore it until you're done speaking. Then dismiss it. Then call for a light beverage. Asmodeus isn't just overbearing. He has a supernatural ability or overbearingness.
"Aura of Submission (Su) At the end of each of Asmodeus’s turns, creatures within 20 feet of him must succeed on DC 36 Will saves or submit to all of Asmodeus’s commands for 1 day, doing whatever he asks as if every request of his was a suggestion spell against which the target cannot resist. This is a mind-affecting ability.
A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected by Asmodeus’s aura ever again."

They are going to do what he wants. Whether he has to threaten, bribe, repent, slay, save, or denounce, the conversation, the process, is just a means to an end he has already determined.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-22, 01:14 PM
Unless he plans on killing the characters, there's no reason not to be nice to them. Maybe if he shows them evil isn't all that bad, they'll even fall, and hey, free souls. At the very least, they may spread doubts amongst the population when they go home to share their story.

"So, may I ask, why did you come here?"
"To fight the evil _____!"
"Of course. In that case, you might want this weapon of weaponyness. He's down that hall, through the door, follow the second star to the right, and go straight on till morning."
"Wait, why are you helping us? What's the catch?"
"I've always found it pays to be nice to the help. Of course, your granddaughter is going to single handedly win me the Blood War. And then lead my armies into Celestia, where they will fail, but I'll capture the minor artifact Z."
"...Wait, no. What!"
"Of course, if the idea offends you, you could always just stay here. With me. Forever. :smallamused: Is there anything else my guests would ask of me?"

If anyone every tries to interrupt you, just keep talking. They roll an attack? Ignore it until you're done speaking. Then dismiss it. Then call for a light beverage. Asmodeus isn't just overbearing. He has a supernatural ability or overbearingness.
"Aura of Submission (Su) At the end of each of Asmodeus’s turns, creatures within 20 feet of him must succeed on DC 36 Will saves or submit to all of Asmodeus’s commands for 1 day, doing whatever he asks as if every request of his was a suggestion spell against which the target cannot resist. This is a mind-affecting ability.
A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected by Asmodeus’s aura ever again."

They are going to do what he wants. Whether he has to threaten, bribe, repent, slay, save, or denounce, the conversation, the process, is just a means to an end he has already determined.

Always remember: You need to play Asmodeus as a complete bastard, much like running a Drow villain well. Asmodeus isn't Gruumsh, who's a punching bag who hits back. He's more finesse, more likely a chain-yanker than a thug. Remember, asmodeus is like Willhuf Tarkin (those who don't know, watch Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope) and Belloch from Raiders of the Lost Ark. He's not a Nazi, but is pure evil with his own agenda. He's also the "Villain You Can Bargin With." Like take a paladin, and have Asmodeus convince the paly that if he works with him this once to kill Vecna (assuming that Asmodeus has a beef with the Mortal Turned God), the paladin will be doing much more good than just outright killing him, then taking on Vecna.

jiriku
2010-03-22, 01:35 PM
Have the players encounter him in an area of the Nine Hells that mysteriously appears just like a tropical beach. When they find him, he's sprawled on a folding chair in cargo shorts and a Hawaiin shirt, drinking a Mai Tai and watching the waves come in.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-22, 01:36 PM
Have the players encounter him in an area of the Nine Hells that mysteriously appears just like a tropical beach. When they find him, he's sprawled on a folding chair in cargo shorts and a Hawaiin shirt, drinking a Mai Tai and watching the waves come in.

wow...Thats...kinda....creepy actually.

Seeing the most feared devil in all of existence on vacation?

valadil
2010-03-22, 02:02 PM
For your villain to be believable he has to make sense. This is why I don't like evil for the sake of evil. BBEGs are ambitious, they have to have some plan. They may even have noble intentions. But they've snapped and are willing to go just a little too far to accomplish their goals.

That's what I wanted to say before I read that you were using Asmodeus. He's a little bit out of the scope of what I've dealt with, but here's some suggestions anyhow.

What is Asmodeus trying to accomplish? He's always scheming up overly circuitous plots. What is his goal? How can he move towards that goal as the game progresses?

Why are the players trying to stop this? And/or why do they have Asmodeus's attention?

You mentioned that Asmodeus is already all powerful. So maybe he doesn't have motivation? What if he's already achieved his goals and now he's bored? I could see a character like that being the workaholic type. And now that he's won he doesn't know what to do with himself. This certainly fits with the beach vacation imagery.

Devils_Blind
2010-03-22, 02:27 PM
He hasn't achieved his goals. He's still opposed by the good alignments, and he still has the blood war with the abyss to contend with. Not to mention pretty much every other devil in hell scheming to overthrow him. Contentment and vacations are for people who aren't trying to rule to everything-ever verse.

As for beaches... Unless that was the tone of the entire campaign, that would pretty much kill the entirety of my immersion. He's a god for all intents and purposes. He's the Xanatos Roulette incarnate. It would not be out of line to suspect him of manipulating the minds of the authors of the D&D supplements that included him. :smalltongue: Vacations? He has minions to take those for him.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-22, 02:35 PM
Have the players encounter him in an area of the Nine Hells that mysteriously appears just like a tropical beach. When they find him, he's sprawled on a folding chair in cargo shorts and a Hawaiin shirt, drinking a Mai Tai and watching the waves come in.

definitely using this.:smallamused:

and the campaign doesn't really have a tone. it's dark most of the time but there are quite a few jokes. And there will soon be many more.

Mauther
2010-03-22, 03:53 PM
As far as how to present him, I’d just second all the posts that say that he’s pure class. Evil and soulless, but he’s got style. Dressed impeccably, perfectly groomed (more than a little vain about that as well), courteous and calm. Like a high class lawyer or a real slick politician. Don’t even touch the physical intimidation its beneath him. Do you flex your muscle when dealing with a cockroach? Because that’s all adventurers are to him. Think of the Devil (Ray Wise) from Reaper.

As for how to produce him, I’d suggest making the party his project. A guy’s got to have a hobby, right? How worrisome is it going to be to the party good types when the lord of all evil joins them for a drink and congratulates them on a job well done? He doesn’t need to tempt, or convert any of them. Your average adventuring party would probably do him some favors weakening or knocking off rivals just over the course of their career. All those cultists and demon summoners have to worship someone. As long as your party is hitting worshippers of Jubilex or Mammon, Asmo thinks your doing a bang up job. And if the party could protect mankind by killing that champion of Tiamat, he’d really appreciate it because Tiamat was planning on moving for a place in the 9 again, so thanks.

You can put the party in a real rough place morally. They can do a lot of good with Asmo’s help, he can point them to a lot of evil. But can they justify helping Asmodeus?

taltamir
2010-03-22, 03:56 PM
mmm... you can always beat the old dead horse of "eternal life means eternal boredom"... he messes with your life, sacrifices your friend and family, because he is bored and craves entertainment.

really, there are a ton of motivation... just look at any prison (or psychological accounts of prisoners)... pick a heinous crime, imagine that person as a king.

SilverClawShift
2010-03-22, 05:45 PM
Asmodeus is, to put it in frank terms, the coldest and coolest individual you could meet. Asmodeus does not sweat. He doesn't panic, or fret, or worry. He has a plan, and he's had more time to go over this plan and fine tune it than your entire civilization has had time to grow.
Asmodeus looks you in the eye when you talk. If someone tries to interupt you, Asmodeus will put his hand up at them and keep paying attention to you until you're comfortable you've said your peice. If someone interupts Asmodeus, he doesn't get mad, he just keeps talking as if it hadn't happened.
Asmodeus will answer the phone when you call. Asmodeus will invite you to his table when you look around a crowded cafeteria. Asmodeus will listen to what you have to say.
If you waste his time, Asmodeus will not scream at you.

Because here's what Asmodeus boils down to. This is what defines him.

If Asmodeus waits long enough, one of two things will happen. You will go to some other plane, where you'll no longer be a concern to him. Or you'll go to hell, where he will get to personally torture you until your whimpering stops entertaining him.

The absolute most unpleasant thing you can do to Asmodeus is 'take a few years longer than normal to finally die'. That's the absolute worst case scenario to him. He can deal with that.

And you? You don't matter. You might think you matter. Other people might think you matter. He might even pretend you matter this decade because that's more entertaining than the alternative. But Asmodeus has a plan, one that's been churning along since before your entire KINGDOM was just a glint in some cavemans eye, and in the end, Asmodeus will still be be there, still standing, and still watching his plan unfold century by creeping

Sorry, sidetracked. But yeah, calm, confident, and completely in control. That pretty much defines the Big A.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-22, 05:51 PM
Make your villain evil. Really evil.

Show an example of the villain doing something terrible that the characters would refuse to tolerate. (Killing/raping/torturing an npc that the players liked is always a good method if you don't use it often.)


And reread through the villain section of the DM Guide.

Harperfan7
2010-03-22, 05:57 PM
Don’t even touch the physical intimidation its beneath him. Do you flex your muscle when dealing with a cockroach?

I choked on my toast.

(the following is for 3.5)
Asmodeus is the all-time hardest to kill bad guy in the D&D multiverse. He's harder to kill than greater evil gods. If there is anybody who is more evil/powerful than him, you don't know about it.

It is possible to end him permanently, but the perfect 30th level party is going to have the fight of a lifetime in doing it.

Just killing his avatar is much more believable.

ondonaflash
2010-03-22, 06:11 PM
You know, I've always felt that there was nothing quite so evil as a committee. Maybe have him meet in a boardroom with the other Archdevils, have them discuss lives in terms of numbers and profit margins, figure out what they can do to squeeze the numbers, and make them eke out a little bit more.

There are so many oversights, and vile acts that people do just because some suit in a leather chair thought it might save a dollar, that you could really epitomize evil that way.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:13 PM
make him a politician / lawyer / bureaucrat?