OOTS #708 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[chiasaur11]

Ah.

Once again, it sucks to be Redcloak.

[Name_Here]

And the hits keep on coming for Red Cloak.

Man I love watching him get smacked down.

[pendell]

WOW that was fast! Thank YOU, Mr. Burlew!

Hobgoblin couple ... that oughta add some fodder to the debate about killing helpless XP fodder, indeed it will.

"Wrong-eye" -- "Impotence special" -- *chuckle*. Well DONE! I enjoyed this strip!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[jayarsea]

What a terrible Concentration check...

[WWBelkarD]

And further proof appears that Xykon is shifting his trust.

Or that he's just a tremendous piece of crap. Either way.

Also, "I crave mortal flesh" made me laugh out loud.

[Mordokai]

Tsuki actually managed to disturb me with this one...

[Starscream]

Wow, even when Xykon isn't around he knows how to pull Redcloak's strings. He really is a magnificent you-know-what.

[npc revolution]

I like the wrong-eye joke, nice to know that the extra stuff is being kept firmly within canon.

[Gandariel]

ehm...someone can explain me the joke on the Supersize Impotence?
and also the crave joke...
i suppose crave means desire, wish... so "i want human flesh"... is there something i'm missing? it's probably due to my non-perfect knowledge of english...
anyway, anybody can help me?

[Snake-Aes]

Well, that rules out the want of secrecy towards keeping the corpses from the city.

[Mastikator]

If Redcloak would have killed her right then and there for that, he would have earned my respect.
But instead, he choose to be a cowardly wuss.

[Mando Knight]

D'awww... da baby wants his num-nums... :smalltongue:

[Vemynal]

loving it!

[CWater]

Hmm...what to say about this one? Well, it seems that RC does indeed care about the goblins, but he still has no backbone to stand up for them. On the other hand, it is never wise to anger an evil lich that is already mad at you.:smallamused:

[zql]

It's tough to be in Wrong-eye's pants.
The art in the animated hobbo it's excellent, I really like the color scheme.

[Zanaril]

Poor, poor wrong-eye.

Nice comic, the slight use of perspective it the last panel works great.

[TheBlackShadow]

Come on Redcloak, don't let the bastards get you down!

[nli10]

Yet again, great art and attention to detail. It's why I keep buying all the books. :)

[Silv]

ehm...someone can explain me the joke on the Supersize Impotence?
and also the crave joke...
i suppose crave means desire, wish... so "i want human flesh"... is there something i'm missing? it's probably due to my non-perfect knowledge of english...
anyway, anybody can help me?
In this case crave means he wants to eat it, although it's closer to needs I guess- between wanting and needing.

And the supersize impotence I think is that he's now got Xykon AND Tsukio telling him what to do, which is about five times as humiliating and frustrating as before, if that makes sense.

[Trixie]

Huh, most of the ridiculous, unfounded arguments used to defend racist killing busted, right there :smallamused:

But then again, it is a forum where people cheer at genocides, just because "they're cool". Huh, human morality (or lack of thereof) never ceases to amaze me. :smallamused:

Also: the larger the discussion, the faster next comic is, it seems :smalltongue:

[electricbee]

Who else thinks that Tsukiko will eventually do a heel to face turn due to some sort of scorned woman deal?

[Sylian]

Why didn't she just animate the prisoners?

[Dark Matter]

Why didn't she just animate the prisoners?What prisoners? And presumably she used to since all her old black squad members were ex-human.

[Shale]

She probably would have, once they were executed.

Why wait so long? Bureaucracy, probably. Or maybe they wanted to make sure they'd gotten all the information they could out of them.

[Scarlet Knight]

If Redcloak would have killed her right then and there for that, he would have earned my respect.
But instead, he choose to be a cowardly wuss.

Discretion is the better part of valor

Redcloak knows he's outgunned by Xykon, even with all the hobgoblins. He needs to complete the Dark One's plan. He will wait, and endure...

[Melamoto]

That was a fast update. Probably let it out so that the #707 discussion thread could finally be unstickied before it hit 50 pages. And I'm noticing SoD related material in the comics now. Good for us who've read it.

[Closak]

*Kills a random elven couple in retaliation*

Filthy elves. *Throws elven commander of the side of a mountain, then jumps down after him and smashes his head against the side of the mountain on the way down, then lands on him*

[Drolyt]

Fast updates. We can only hope this continues. I feel sorry for Redcloak, even if he is the bad guy.

[Saph]

Who else thinks that Tsukiko will eventually do a heel to face turn due to some sort of scorned woman deal?

Not me. I think she's got an excellent chance of taking Redcloak's position, though.

Anyway, great comic. If every human with adventurer levels gets scheduled for execution, though, I wonder how many the hobgoblins would have killed off already?

[OldFart]

Not me. I think she's got an excellent chance of taking Redcloak's position, though.I think she's got an excellent chance of taking Crystal's position, courtesy of Redcloak.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Thank you Giant! :smallwink:

[Jokasti]

Can't believe it updated this fast. Heheh "Wrong-Eye". Xykon knows exactly which strings to pull.

[Teddy]

Wow, that was fast. And a really awesome comic too. Thanks Giant!

[Big Hungry Joe]

So quick! My cup runneth over.

[Petrocorus]

Fast update! Well done, Giant!

I don't really understand the "super-sized Impotence Special "to go", neither.

And what is num-num? I guess it's a kind of food.

I'm wondering how RC knows there were elves involves? We didn't see him cast any spell.

[Woodsman]

That's pretty low of Xykon to call Redcloak "Wrong-Eye" like that.

But then again, Xykon is a low individual. In the Giant's own words, "he's kind of a ****."

Edit: Ah, auto-censor. Well, my point is made.

[Nevitan]

Ugh, Xykon remembers Right Eye. That saddens and worries me.

[Teddy]

Hmm, when I think of it, that must be a hobgoblin policeman whom Redcloak is talking to in the first three panels...

[Petrocorus]

If Redcloak would have killed her right then and there for that, he would have earned my respect.
But instead, he choose to be a cowardly wuss.

Seconded, i am not sure Xykon would have been utterly pissed off if RC would have killed her.

[Debatra]

Am I the only one who thinks Redcloak will have a Heel Face Turn by the end of the arc?

Actually, maybe a Heel Face Doorslam would be more likely.

[Kish]

Fast update! Well done, Giant!

I don't really understand the "super-sized Impotence Special "to go", neither.

He means that while he's unable to stand up to anyone he works with, everyone he can't stand up to will be leaving the city when he does. He is further making a bitter joke about Super-sized McDonalds meals to go.

[Morty]

Seconded, i am not sure Xykon would have been utterly pissed off if RC would have killed her.

Xykon doesn't have to be pissed of to blast a couple dozen hobgoblins into pieces. "Mildly annoyed" is just enough.

[Scarlet Knight]

Heheh "Wrong-Eye". Xykon knows exactly which strings to pull.

I guess this means a shift in power. Xykon always knew he could control Redcloak, but now he's giving that power to Tsukiko. And I guess he anticipated that Redcloak would need controlling.

[Puschkin]

@everyone here saying that Redcloak is a wuss for obeying her:

I really REALLY think that Redcloak has his own masterplan and will backstab Xykon when the time is ripe. But for now he has to do whatever they want until the time is ripe. That's my two scents and I will probably have to wait 200 more updates for it to turn out to be true, but mark my words^^

[Kobold-Bard]

Wrong-eye, love it.

Deffo need to reread Start of Darkness.

WOO!! New comics in quick succession. Long may it continue.

[Petrocorus]

@everyone here saying that Redcloak is a wuss for obeying her:

I really REALLY think that Redcloak has his own masterplan and will backstab Xykon when the time is ripe. But for now he has to do whatever they want until the time is ripe. That's my two scents and I will probably have to wait 200 more updates for it to turn out to be true, but mark my words^^

I actually agree, and i even wish it.

[icastflare!]

I now want to create a female character with the ability to create undead. she will have a motherly love to them. this is why Tsusiko is one of my favorite characters.

[multilis]

Redcloak is under orders from his god "Don't screw this up".

He can't alienate X yet, which means he can't stand up to T when backed by X.

During attack on Azure city it was *Redcloak* giving orders to animate goblins rather than heal them. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html

Interesting change, Recloak in past would rather turn to zombie than save lives, now he would rather leave goblins dead than zombie. (I doubt he would spend 5K on low level goblins to rez, I don't think dead goblins care very much about being bodies turned into zombies, doesn't stop them from going to afterlife)

[Petrocorus]

He means that while he's unable to stand up to anyone he works with, everyone he can't stand up to will be leaving the city when he does. He is further making a bitter joke about Super-sized McDonalds meals to go.

Thanks. That's just made me hungry. Have i got some gouda remaining?

[The_Weirdo]

Huh, most of the ridiculous, unfounded arguments used to defend racist killing busted, right there :smallamused:

But then again, it is a forum where people cheer at genocides, just because "they're cool". Huh, human morality (or lack of thereof) never ceases to amaze me. :smallamused:

Also: the larger the discussion, the faster next comic is, it seems :smalltongue:

So the guerilla team fighting for freedom within their occupated country killed a couple of witnesses that were of the occupying force.

So what? The lives of the oppressors are worthless. Freedom. At all costs.

[TheCoolThatguy]

And further proof appears that Xykon is shifting his trust.

Or that he's just a tremendous piece of crap. Either way.

Also, "I crave mortal flesh" made me laugh out loud.

Or both ;)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yay for fast update!
And this is really telling...I have a feeling that Redcloak's going to get the boot from Xykon soon...

EDIT: ...Arrows in the back. And now I'm even more disgusted by the elves' actions.

[Iago]

Xykon doesn't have to be pissed of to blast a couple dozen hobgoblins into pieces. "Mildly annoyed" is just enough.

How about "irked?"

Or "bored," to whatever extent boredom and annoyance fail to overlap.

[2xMachina]

Xykon doesn't have to be pissed of to blast a couple dozen hobgoblins into pieces. "Mildly annoyed" is just enough.

Bored works too.

EDIT: Ah, ninjaed.

BTW, Xykon will have to keep RC around. He's the only one who knows the ritual.

(Though there is no reason not to just give the mantle to another cleric after killing RC...)

[Snake-Aes]

Bored works too.

Or even already amused.

[John Cribati]

Well, Ouch and Damn.

[TVTMaster]

Huh. I've noticed that the hobgoblins were starting to wear more blue for a while now- this random soldier wearing a blue uniform is another tip of the hat. Odd that the goblins are starting to wear the same colors as those who they just finished slaughtering. Anybody else notice this?

Edit: Or maybe they're just getting clothes from the abandoned stores (which only sell the color blue). Either way, it's ironic.

[ScottishDragon]

YES! That goblin prisoner can finally have his revenge!!Maybe tsisuko will decide to do something special with his corpse than turn it into a mindless zombie.I hope he becomes a main character,I just fell he deserves a little vengeance.

[Laketh Stadt]

Love the fast updates!
I cant wait to see Tsukiko slapped around by a certain cleric of Thor.:smallsmile:

[sihnfahl]

And what is num-num? I guess it's a kind of food.
It's a term for food usually used between mother and child, or owner and pet. In Tsuki's case, most likely mother and child.


Arrows in the back. And now I'm even more disgusted by the elves' actions.
Presumably the hobbos had come across the fleeing prisoners and task force. Rather than risk the hobbos getting away and giving RC the lowdown, the elves shot them.

When running for your life and into a hiding spot, Rule #1 is 'Kill all witnesses'.

[Yora]

Happa-happa as we say here. ^^

[Weimann]

ehm...someone can explain me the joke on the Supersize Impotence?
and also the crave joke...
i suppose crave means desire, wish... so "i want human flesh"... is there something i'm missing? it's probably due to my non-perfect knowledge of english...
anyway, anybody can help me?The joke is that Tsukiko treats her newly created minion as an innocent baby, while he quite clearly wishes to supper on your intestines.

I must say I laughed at heartily over it.

[Aaron]

Once again, Redcloak gets the verbal beat down. Awesome! :smallbiggrin:

"I crave mortal flesh." Also awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

(Though there is no reason not to just give the mantle to another cleric after killing RC...)
Xykon would have to hope the new cleric he gave the cloak to would be as much of a coward as Redcloak. I suspect he values Redcloak greatly because Redcloak is the only one he can push as far as he wants and be confident Redcloak will stay loyal to him.

[FerhagoRosewood]

Hilarious.

I hope this one doesn't spark a long, drawn out and humor killing debate.

>.>

[Kol Korran]

i'm liking redcloak more and more. he's one of (or my top) favorite characters... that's all i wanted to say realy.

[CTLC]

awesome.
buuuuuuuuut
WHY ARE HER EYES DIFFERENT COLORS?
bothers me every time i see it

[Neffer]

Poor guy. Thats all I can say.

[Teddy]

Huh. I've noticed that the hobgoblins were starting to wear more blue for a while now- this random soldier wearing a blue uniform is another tip of the hat. Odd that the goblins are starting to wear the same colors as those who they just finished slaughtering. Anybody else notice this?

Edit: Or maybe they're just getting clothes from the abandoned stores (which only sell the color blue). Either way, it's ironic.

That is actually a police officer and not just a random soldier, hence the color of his uniform.

[albis]

Tsukiko is a b*tch. u_U

[Nilan8888]

So does this lay to rest the debate that the elven commander was militarily justified in killing that guy? They weny ahead and left all those dead hobgoblins lying around.

If this were the work of amateurs, there'd be a lot more amateurs lying around dead. It would have taken a long time to grab a significant number of bodies and bring them back. Plus, it's clear RC knows they're elves now.

[Gandariel]

The joke is that Tsukiko treats her newly created minion as an innocent baby, while he quite clearly wishes to supper on your intestines.

I must say I laughed at heartily over it.

oh, ok, now i get it.
gotta improve my english...

great strip anyway

[Allan Surgite]

awesome.
buuuuuuuuut
WHY ARE HER EYES DIFFERENT COLORS?
bothers me every time i see it
It's ~symbolic~!

To give a more serious explanation: in something close to a chicken-or-the-egg scenario, it's likely that her eye colours are to distinguish between when she is casting divine or arcane magic. On the other hand, Mr. Burlew could have made her a MT after giving her heterochromia.

[Kobold-Bard]

awesome.
buuuuuuuuut
WHY ARE HER EYES DIFFERENT COLORS?
bothers me every time i see it

She casts both Arcane and Divine magic. That shows her two sides.

[RoninAngel]

Awww Tsukiko is so cute in the last panel. I am totally sigging that! :smallredface:

[Warren Dew]

"Hello, little one. I'm your mommy."

I love it.

Tsukiko treats her undead way better than Redcloak treats his goblins.

[Optimystik]

She casts both Arcane and Divine magic. That shows her two sides.

That was my thought as well - the Giant gave her heterochromia both as a stylistic choice, and a visual reminder to the reader.

And as sorry as I feel for Redcloak right now, I can't help but feel he deserves every minute of this humiliation. :smallamused:

[DrGonzo]

That was my thought as well - the Giant gave her heterochromia both as a stylistic choice, and a visual reminder to the reader.

And as sorry as I feel for Redcloak right now, I can't help but feel he deserves every minute of this humiliation. :smallamused:

I thought she was a Bowie fan.. (and yes, I know he doesn't have heterochromia, just a dilated pupil)

On topic: I'm really starting to feel sorry for RC..

[Puschkin]

Tsuki actually managed to disturb me with this one...

Who else thinks that Tsukiko will eventually do a heel to face turn due to some sort of scorned woman deal?

I now want to create a female character with the ability to create undead. she will have a motherly love to them. this is why Tsusiko is one of my favorite characters.

He can't alienate X yet, which means he can't stand up to T when backed by X.

Maybe tsisuko will decide to do something special with his corpse than turn it into a mindless zombie.

I just love how everybody is spelling her differently :smallbiggrin:

[SteveMB]

@everyone here saying that Redcloak is a wuss for obeying her:

I really REALLY think that Redcloak has his own masterplan and will backstab Xykon when the time is ripe. But for now he has to do whatever they want until the time is ripe. That's my two scents and I will probably have to wait 200 more updates for it to turn out to be true, but mark my words^^

If he didn't before, his thinking might be nudged in that direction by the steady stream of abuse he's being made to suck up....

[pendell]

Hmm ...

... who else thinks that Redcloak basing his god's plans on two humans (well, a human-turned-lich and a current-human) is not the best possible outcome? I strongly doubt either of them will go along with allowing goblins to enslave humans.

... who else suspects, as I do, that the elven commander will meet his end at the hands of the goblin-turned-wight or whatever that he himself pushed off a wall? Can anyone guess what form such poetic justice might take? I'll wager it would involve a spatula :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

... who else suspects, as I do, that the elven commander will meet his end at the hands of the goblin-turned-wight or whatever that he himself pushed off a wall? Can anyone guess what form such poetic justice might take? I'll wager it would involve a spatula :smallamused:

That would be marvelously ironic. "Hello. Now I'm a dead hobgoblin, so that makes me good, right? Oh, and you're a dead elf now, too."

[Drolyt]

Fast update! Well done, Giant!

I don't really understand the "super-sized Impotence Special "to go", neither.

And what is num-num? I guess it's a kind of food.

I'm wondering how RC knows there were elves involves? We didn't see him cast any spell.

Well, yummy means it tastes good. Take that and make it more childish and you get nummy. So num-num is a really childish way of saying food, something you would only normally say to a baby. As for super-sized Impotence Special "to go", it's making fun of Redcloak's lack of a spine by insulting his masculinity. The super-sized to go part makes it sound like a fast food chain.

[Draconi Redfir]

are us Redfir's really the only Goblinoids that actually have good relaitions with Elves? we never killed them, and they never push us off of tall buildings... they just ask us to lift some heavy things eavry now and then.


then again, we ARE probibly the only tribe of bugbears to be on the neutral spectrum.




poor hobgoblins. couldent be given the proper burial they diserve becuse their leaders boss is a jerk.

[Zevox]

Woah, that was the quickest new comic in a good while. And an interesting one at that - Redcloak seems like he is changing a bit, as this is the first time since Right-Eye that we've seen him unwilling to create undead out of something.

...and Xykon remembers that incident well enough, and recognizes the link that can be drawn to Redcloak's recent loss well enough, to instruct Tsukiko on exactly how to get to Redcloak, just in case she needs it. That's slightly frightening.

Zevox

[Thanatosia]

If Redcloak would have killed her right then and there for that, he would have earned my respect.
But instead, he choose to be a cowardly wuss.
While it would have been somewhat awesome, at the same time, it would feel like a fairly big character derailment to me, he reacted as I'd have expected him to.

Ugh, Xykon remembers Right Eye. That saddens and worries me.
To paraphrase Xykon himself, dont confuse not caring with not knowing. I do think Xykon was largely a bafoon prior to becoming a Lich, but I think Lichdom bumped up his mental facilties a fair bit, and he continued to develop them thereafter (as he said once, he learned a lot more after his life then during it). He maintains the bafoonary charade, but he's a hell of lot smarter and observant then he lets on - becoming a Lich elevated his threat level in many more serious ways then just some useful immunities and racial bonuses to listen checks.

[Drolyt]

If Redcloak would have killed her right then and there for that, he would have earned my respect.
But instead, he choose to be a cowardly wuss.
Well, if he had done that then Xykon would surely go to town on Gobotopia, which would have been BAD for Redcloak.

[Strawberries]

Poor Redcloack. I assume he is still under the impression that "It'll all be worth it" in the end.

I can't help but feel sorry for him. Also, shot in the back? Dammit resistance, you couldn't try to make me want to support you at least a bit, couldn't you?

[JonestheSpy]

i think my favorite part is Redcloak's reaction to realizing that his propaganda was actually right...

[sihnfahl]

Also, shot in the back? Dammit resistance, you couldn't try to make me want to support you at least a bit, couldn't you?
The hobbos most likely came across the procession of fleeing prisoners and resistance members. If they got away, they'd alert the city and the search would be on while the trail is warm.

It's only practical.

If you were in the Resistance's shoes, who'd you prefer the safety of?

2 Hobgoblins or the 112 people you just rescued?

[Kumo]

Ugh, Xykon remembers Right Eye. That saddens and worries me.
SoD
Xykon also said he'd let Redcloak pretend he never killed his brother - so he's screwing him around that way too.

[KiwiImperator]

Ahh, the necessities of war. At least these guys are professional. No witnesses, no survivors. That's the way to do it.

[Optimystik]

Ahh, the necessities of war. At least these guys are professional. No witnesses, no survivors. That's the way to do it.

Professionals? You must be joking. They left arrows in the backs of two victims to clearly identify themselves as elven insurgents. They don't even have the excuse of overlooking the couple, because they were some distance away from the prison, so no other bodies around to lose the arrows in.

If that was intentional, they have balls of steel (and brains of wood.)

[Mastikator]

Seconded, i am not sure Xykon would have been utterly pissed off if RC would have killed her.

Remember the time RC cast a blade barrier on her and had a chloride elemental attack her?
Xykon was amused and told her that they're the bad guys and she needs to stand up for herself.
If RC killed her Xykon could very well be proud that RC has finally grown a spine. I seriously doubt Xykon gives a pile of cow manure about Tsusiko.

Does Xykon know that the bearer of the crimson mantle is necessary for the quest (right?)? I hope he at least knows that The Dark One wouldn't accept a human as high priest.

[Kobold-Bard]

Ahh, the necessities of war. At least these guys are professional. No witnesses, no survivors. That's the way to do it.

As I said about chucking the Goblin prisoner off a roof, they could have left them alive and knocked out rather than dead. May have been easier but I wouldn't call killing civilians that wandered into a scene where the remains would identify them anyway necessary.

[Lamorak]

Ahh, the necessities of war. At least these guys are professional. No witnesses, no survivors. That's the way to do it.

I agree, they are a step up from your average "band of good guys here to save the day". Shame about that one couple, but I guess they are treating every goblin as an enemy combatant. Its interesting actually, you have bad guys, good guys and then you have guys like Team Peregrine who fight for good while doing bad things. I actually like this fresh perspective.

[Kumo]

Professionals? You must be joking. They left arrows in the backs of two victims to clearly identify themselves as elven insurgents. They don't even have the excuse of overlooking the couple, because they were some distance away from the prison, so no other bodies around to lose the arrows in.

If that was intentional, they have balls of steel (and brains of wood.)
If they can be identified by arrows, then the browncloaks could have been an identifier too. two more arrowed corpses aren't going to change much besides body count and living witnesses.

[Petrocorus]

Remember the time RC cast a blade barrier on her and had a chloride elemental attack her?
Xykon was amused and told her that they're the bad guys and she needs to stand up for herself.
If RC killed her Xykon could very well be proud that RC has finally grown a spine. I seriously doubt Xykon gives a pile of cow manure about Tsusiko.


I was actually thinking to this events.

[KiwiImperator]

Professionals? You must be joking. They left arrows in the backs of two victims to clearly identify themselves as elven insurgents. They don't even have the excuse of overlooking the couple, because they were some distance away from the prison, so no other bodies around to lose the arrows in.

If that was intentional, they have balls of steel (and brains of wood.)

Redcloak had already announced that Elven insurgents were in the city. Letting it be known that not only can the insurgents infiltrate the highest levels of government and attempt assassination on the glorious leader, but they can kill an entire building full of trained guards during a festival and then walk out of the city without anyone noticing, that is morale destruction right there. How must this look to the people? Redcloak is on his way out, so are the rest of the high level officers, and the last attack left him with one eye.

These elves will appear as vengeful ghosts, unstoppable, indestructible, merciless and completely uncompromising... And soon the Great Leader and his upper-tier staff aren't going to be there to pull them out of the fire. Advertising their presence after the fact? All that says is that the elves hold their enemies in absolute contempt. This is professional terrorism, sir, not cartoon freedom fighting.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Am I the only one who thinks Redcloak will have a Heel Face Turn by the end of the arc?

Actually, maybe a Heel Face Doorslam would be more likely.

Not at all. Especially now that Xykon and Tsukiko are probably going to be reminding him of the single thing he's done he hated the most on a regular basis now.

[Strawberries]

The hobbos most likely came across the procession of fleeing prisoners and resistance members. If they got away, they'd alert the city and the search would be on while the trail is warm.

It's only practical.

It may be pratical, but...civilian deaths. Shot in the back. I may have thought of that as a necessary evil, but added to the racist comments and the murderer of an unarmed prisoner in the previous strip (which is in no way justifiable, since he was completely at their mercy)...

No, sorry. I'm still rooting for the goblins, here.

[Kumo]

This is professional terrorism, sir, not cartoon freedom fighting.

almost correct, except the mission was not to indiscriminately kill civilians -which could have easily been done by a fireball into the festival crowd- but to free prisoners and slaves.

Cartoon? No. But i don't think it's terrorism either.

[Optimystik]

i think my favorite part is Redcloak's reaction to realizing that his propaganda was actually right...

That was also gold.


Redcloak had already announced that Elven insurgents were in the city.

Yes, but he didn't know that there really were until they foolishly left evidence behind. How much more effort would it have taken to go and get those arrows?

[Drolyt]

Yes, but he didn't know that there really were until they foolishly left evidence behind. How much more effort would it have taken to go and get those arrows?

I thought when he made that announcement he was thinking of V?

[Petrocorus]

But how does he know they are elves?

[Kish]

That was also gold.



Yes, but he didn't know that there really were until they foolishly left evidence behind. How much more effort would it have taken to go and get those arrows?
And then the first one to be animated as a whatever-type-of-undead-Tsukiko-just-animated-one-as says, "It was elves!"

"Don't let anyone learn we're here" kind of not an option with 40+ corpses and clerics who can cast Speak with Dead.

[KiwiImperator]

almost correct, except the mission was not to indiscriminately kill civilians -which could have easily been done by a fireball into the festival crowd- but to free prisoners and slaves.

Cartoon? No. But i don't think it's terrorism either.

It's not Cartoon terrorism either, but they just killed an entire prison's guard staff, and freed over a hundred dangerous criminals, eighteen of whom are trained killers who have vanished into some unknown space within or near the city. It's definitely terrorism, but it happened to have a clear objective.


EDIT:


Yes, but he didn't know that there really were until they foolishly left evidence behind. How much more effort would it have taken to go and get those arrows?

His knowing that they are there changes little. If he could have found the resistance before, he would have. All that's changed now is that the resistance is even more of a threat than it was before, and Redcloak is leaving.

[Excalibur]

Wow, that was fast.
I'm really glad I've read Start of Darkness - Gives everything more depth

[Kumo]

It's not Cartoon terrorism either, but they just killed an entire prison's guard staff, and freed over a hundred dangerous criminals, eighteen of whom are trained killers who have vanished into some unknown space within or near the city. It's definitely terrorism, but it happened to have a clear objective.

"class level" does not automatically mean "murderer" or "criminal". Crazy, i know.

EDIT: And what gives you the impression they're all criminals? i thought they were mostly slaves.


And then the first one to be animated as a whatever-type-of-undead-Tsukiko-just-animated-one-as says, "It was elves!"

If zombies retained their memories of life it'd be pretty hard to control them.

[tassaron]

Is this the first confirmation that Tsukiko is going to leave Gobbotopia with Xykon and Redcloak? (Not that we couldn't assume before now, but still.)

I really like how that small reference to Right-Eye in DSTP works now that there are more indirect references to him. People who have never read SOD (or spoilers of it) can at least take a stab at why "Wrong-Eye" is an insult. :smalleek:

[Scorpions__]

Thanks Rich! :smallsmile:

Cool to see Jirix back in the field, and I hope so much that Redcloak one day duels Tsukiko and wrecks her...






DM[F]R

[Spash]

I'm starting to get the idea that if Redcloak really does care about the Goblin People as much as he seems to, he won't be tolerating this sort of crap much longer.

[KiwiImperator]

"class level" does not automatically mean "murderer" or "criminal". Crazy, i know.

EDIT: And what gives you the impression they're all criminals? i thought they were mostly slaves.

Whatever they're in there for, Redcloak seems to think that it's worth executing them over. From the Hobgoblin point of view, they must be criminals, enemy combatants worth bumping off, or at the very least a threat to security worthy of axing. Kind of like how Rangers look an awful lot like serial killers if you happen to be their favored enemy.

[Drolyt]

I'm starting to get the idea that if Redcloak really does care about the Goblin People as much as he seems to, he won't be tolerating this sort of crap much longer.

He plans to tolerate it until he can finish the ritual to control the snarl. Whether he might snap before then, I don't know, but I doubt it.

[Optimystik]

I thought when he made that announcement he was thinking of V?

He was - that was my point. He didn't know there were real elven insurgents until the revelers' corpses were discovered.


And then the first one to be animated as a whatever-type-of-undead-Tsukiko-just-animated-one-as says, "It was elves!"

Well, it might - right after it got done yelling for flesh, anyway.


"Don't let anyone learn we're here" kind of not an option with 40+ corpses and clerics who can cast Speak with Dead.

That's still no reason to give the enemy more intel than they need.
Also, 10 minute head-start.


His knowing that they are there changes little. If he could have found the resistance before, he would have. All that's changed now is that the resistance is even more of a threat than it was before, and Redcloak is leaving.

But he's not gone yet. Now he can set something in motion before he leaves, rather than Jirix being on his own until Wrong-Eye's first scheduled Sending.

Every additional day of confusion is a boon to the resistance. They do not need the higher-ups taking an active interest in what they're doing. Certainly Xykon would find squashing elves more fun than squashing goblins, especially given that one challenged his rep so recently.

[Strawberries]

He plans to tolerate it until he can finish the ritual to control the snarl. Whether he might snap before then, I don't know, but I doubt it.

I doubt it too. Redcloack is working under the fallacious impression that, since he has sacrificed so much, he must keep making sacrifices, or else all would have been in vain.

I don’t think he will draw a line, at this point. Maybe under extreme circumstances (all of Gobbotopia being threatened?), but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Shale]

So....why does everybody assume it was the revelers that tipped Redcloak off that it was elves? Elves are the only archers who use arrows now? Because that's all the officer said. Not "green-fletched arrows," not "Arrows that were clearly made by elves," not "arrows that spell out 'ELVES KILLED THESE LOSERS.'" Just arrows. Redcloak was reacting to the whole scene, not that one detail.

[KiwiImperator]

But he's not gone yet. Now he can set something in motion before he leaves, rather than Jirix being on his own until Wrong-Eye's first scheduled Sending.

Every additional day of confusion is a boon to the resistance. They do not need the higher-ups taking an active interest in what they're doing. Certainly Xykon would find squashing elves more fun than squashing goblins, especially given that one challenged his rep so recently.

It's definitely a calculated risk, but what are the odds Xykon is going to go and hunt down some low level elves when he could be off trying to find the next gate? From the resistance's point of view, this is the absolute best thing they could do. If the team sans Xykon could've caught them by now, they would have. Xykon is probably already packing his bags, he doesn't care what happens to this city. The heavy hitters are leaving, the city is under attack by elves, and everyone knows it. It'll be chaos.

[Black]

I doubt it too. Redcloack is working under the fallacious impression that, since he has sacrificed so much, he must keep making sacrifices, or else all would have been in vain.

I don’t think he will draw a line, at this point. Maybe under extreme circumstances (all of Gobbotopia being threatened?), but I wouldn't hold my breath.

It is not a fallacious impression. People like to use jargon like "sunk cost fallacy" without actually analyzing Redcloack's position.

He has two options. He can stop following the plan or he can continue towards completing it.

The expected value of the former decision is disastrous. Xykon would wreak havoc on the goblins for this betrayal. It would not be cutting losses. It would be destroying all that he has accomplished so far. This is not even thinking about what his deity would do for his unfaithfulness.

The expected value of the latter decision is anywhere from marginally bad to incredibly good. If he continues to put resources into the plan, at least he will satisfy Xykon and remain in the favor of his deity. If he even succeeds with the plan, the payout dwarfs all possible costs. He could sacrifice all of Gobbotopia, even, and still come out ahead (just raise all those goblins afterwards and build it wherever you please). The plan involves gaining effective omnipotence. The expected value of a successful resolution of the plan is so high that it is hard to reason against its pursuit considering how firmly committed he is to it.

There is no fallacy in his reasoning. He cannot stop pursuing the plan on pain of retribution from an epic level caster and his own deity. If the plan succeeds, the goblins gain power that mitigates all costs put into it. The only thing he has deterrence from is failure. Well, I don't think he intends on failing.

So long as he ends up ahead for sticking to the plan than otherwise, then yes, he should continue the plan because he has already invested so much into it. It's only a fallacy when the expected value of quitting is better than staying the course.

[Kumo]

Whatever they're in there for, Redcloak seems to think that it's worth executing them over. From the Hobgoblin point of view, they must be criminals, enemy combatants worth bumping off, or at the very least a threat to security worthy of axing. Kind of like how Rangers look an awful lot like serial killers if you happen to be their favored enemy.

Redcloak thinks being an azurite - sapphire guard or not - is worth executing over. The only ones scheduled for execution are the ones with class levels, (ignore that if they were the only ones you were referring to) while the rest are simply held there because nobody's going to be watching their slaves during a festival.

An act of terrorism is the unlawful use or threatened use of violence on citizenry in an attempt to cause fear in the enemy populace, often for political or idelogical reasons. The only thing about that mission that occured against citizenry are the hobgoblin prisoner being thrown off the roof and the couple that got shot, neither of which were a part of the mission plan.



Here's a thought: maybe Xykon found his phylactery and teleported out two rounds after finding it, as per his own instructions, and is taking stuff out at the gate to speed the process of unlocking it, at which point he will come back and get redcloak and tsukiko to finish unlocking the gate.

Unlikely, i know. But the idea of him coming back and saying "What the heck is taking you so long, you idiots!" makes me grin.

[Berserk Knight]

LOL
...Seriously?
Disgusted by two witnesses dying, who were as of the moment they witnessed the battle, are as dangerous as the ENTIRE HOBGOBLIN ARMY (plus clerics and Black Squadron and whatnot), should they escape?
Oh, and arrows in the BACK? Well, where do you think an arrow would hit if you shoot it at someone who's running away from you? In their face maybe?

We know there were about 20k hobgoblin combatants left from the battle for Azure City. We don't know how many MORE immigrants came in who are combat capable. I don't think any goblinoid would leave, so the numbers should keep increasing.
Plus, they are in a hostile territory. All they have is technically a few "outpost" level base of operation inside that hostile territory. Any and all threats that are not classified as "absolutely no threat at all", should be classified as CRITICAL threats, and should be dealt with accordingly.

[Elfin]

Liked it a lot, and it was nice to have two almost back-to-back comics.

[Gift Jeraff]

:smallcool: Yay, Booted Wight! :smallcool: Let's call him Booty from now on; double meaning considering he belongs to Tsukiko. :smallbiggrin:

Who else thinks that Tsukiko will eventually do a heel to face turn due to some sort of scorned woman deal?
I see her as below Xykon and the archfiends and tied with Nale and Sabine on the list of "Least Likely to Turn Not-so-Evil".

[Black]

Murder is not justified by convenience.

I am continually bewildered by how common the opinion to the contrary is.

[KiwiImperator]

An act of terrorism is the unlawful use or threatened use of violence on citizenry in an attempt to cause fear in the enemy populace, often for political or idelogical reasons. The only thing about that mission that occured against citizenry are the hobgoblin prisoner being thrown off the roof and the couple that got shot, neither of which were a part of the mission plan.

Granted, this specific operation isn't a terrorist activity in and of itself, except that contextually, it might cause severe harm to morale. More importantly, their methodology screams of terrorism more than mere insurgency. They're doing this to cause fear and bolster their ranks, probably in equal measure. They don't care about combatant statuses or the rules of war. They're here to slit throats and take names... And then throw those names off of a building.

[Kumo]

Murder is not justified by convenience.

I am continually bewildered by how common the opinion to the contrary is.

It's war. If you need to kill two to save dozens or even hundreds, you do.

Is it moral in any other circumstance? Of course not. But this isn't 'any other circumstance'


Granted, this specific operation isn't a terrorist activity in and of itself, except that contextually, it might cause severe harm to morale. More importantly, their methodology screams of terrorism more than mere insurgency. They're doing this to cause fear and bolster their ranks, probably in equal measure. They don't care about combatant statuses or the rules of war. They're here to slit throats and take names... And then throw those names off of a building.

That's guerrilla warfare, friend*: hit, fade, bolster your numbers when you can, deplete enemy resources and morale until reinforcements arrive or you can take it back yourself. The difference between guerrilla and terrorist is a fine one but it is here in this case: guerilla hit military targets, terrorist hit civilian.

----

*used very loosely, since i have no idea who you are

[Mordokai]

LOL
...Seriously?
Disgusted by two witnesses dying, who were as of the moment they witnessed the battle, are as dangerous as the ENTIRE HOBGOBLIN ARMY (plus clerics and Black Squadron and whatnot), should they escape?
Oh, and arrows in the BACK? Well, where do you think an arrow would hit if you shoot it at someone who's running away from you? In their face maybe?

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Good to see there are few people left with common sense.

[Kobold-Bard]

It's war. If you need to kill two to save dozens or even hundreds, you do.

Is it moral in any other circumstance? Of course not. But this isn't 'any other circumstance'



That's guerrilla warfare, friend*: hit, fade, bolster your numbers when you can, deplete enemy resources and morale until reinforcements arrive or you can take it back yourself. The difference between guerrilla and terrorist is a fine one but it is here in this case: guerilla hit military targets, terrorist hit civilian.

----

*used very loosely, since i have no idea who you are

Murdering civilians is not ok, war or not. Necessary in your mind, maybe (depending on your viewpoint), but killing them is never acceptable.

[KiwiImperator]

That's guerrilla warfare, friend*: hit, fade, bolster your numbers when you can, deplete enemy resources and morale until reinforcements arrive or you can take it back yourself. The difference between guerrilla and terrorist is a fine one but it is here in this case: guerilla hit military targets, terrorist hit civilian.

The line here is blurred. I'm not even sure if Hobgoblins have civilians, just... Off-duty troops. We'll see what their next target is.


*used very loosely, since i have no idea who you are

Put a laurel wreath on a kiwi and tell me you wouldn't want to be its friend. C'mon. C'mooooon.

[SoC175]

(Though there is no reason not to just give the mantle to another cleric after killing RC...)
He has to hope that the DO plays along and tells the ritual to the new bearer of the crimson mantle.

[Kumo]

Murdering civilians is not ok, war or not. Necessary in your mind, maybe (depending on your viewpoint), but killing them is never acceptable.Never GOOD, i can see, but if it's neccesary then it's ok. Never GOOD, but ok.


The line here is blurred. I'm not even sure if Hobgoblins have civilians, just... Off-duty troops. We'll see what their next target is.

I think off duty troops technically count as civilians. Correct me if i'm wrong.


Put a laurel wreath on a kiwi and tell me you wouldn't want to be its friend. C'mon. C'mooooon.

what's a laurel wreath?


Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Ditto.

[Strawberries]

The line here is blurred. I'm not even sure if Hobgoblins have civilians, just... Off-duty troops. We'll see what their next target is.

There are children among the hobgoblins. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Of course they have civilians

[KiwiImperator]

There are children among the hobgoblins. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Of course they have civilians

Maybe they're just the Redcloak Youth?

[GoC]

Murder is not justified by convenience.
I love how well you communicate your feelings and yet somehow manage to say nothing. Murder can be either immoral killing or unlawful killing. If the former then your statement is tautological, if the latter I'll assume definition 1 (http://www.google.co.uk/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=convenience) and then you are correct, having managed to say something so blindingly obvious that noone will dispute it. Of course killing is not solely justified by someone's convenience! However the safety of many people CAN justify killing.


Murdering civilians is not ok, war or not. Necessary in your mind, maybe (depending on your viewpoint), but killing them is never acceptable.
So presumably you would have done something else?
It's all well and good to say you don't like an option. But when you provide no other alternatives you're being unhelpful.

[DeltaEmil]

The goblinoids should never have brought their civilians to occupied Azure City in the first place. Unless you've eradicated all former inhabitants completely, so that they can't form any kind of resistance, it's obvious that more will suffer than necessary.

[Kobold-Bard]

...So presumably you would have done something else?
It's all well and good to say you don't like an option. But when you provide no other alternatives you're being unhelpful.

- Non-lethal damage (civvies at a party aren't going to have the usual defences so even with -4 to hit it's still easily doable).
- Assorted spells, which obviously depends on what the Mages have available.
- Fliers have a better speed than Goblin land speed. They could have dropped on them and bound them.

But no, killing them was easier so arrow to the back.

[Drolyt]

I love how well you communicate your feelings and yet somehow manage to say nothing. Murder can be either immoral killing or unlawful killing. If the former then your statement is tautological, if the latter I'll assume definition 1 (http://www.google.co.uk/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=convenience) and then you are correct, having managed to say something so blindingly obvious that noone will dispute it. Of course killing is not solely justified by someone's convenience! However the safety of many people CAN justify killing.

Killing is never just. It is sometimes unavoidable, but such a decision should never be taken lightly.

[J.Gellert]

Awesome update! I wonder what kind of undead the hobgoblin is?

[Kumo]

- Non-lethal damage (civvies at a party aren't going to have the usual defences so even with -4 to hit it's still easily doable).Unless you're suggesting stabbing their eyes out so they can't see where they're going and/or that they could tell on sight that the couple was mute so they couldn't tell anyone or scream for help, this isn't a viable option.

- Assorted spells, which obviously depends on what the Mages have available.

I doubt the elves would've prepared spells with morality before neccesity.


- Fliers have a better speed than Goblin land speed. They could have dropped on them and bound them.

Still leaves too many problems, such as escape, the fact they could still speak, and there's still the matter of gouging their eyes out.

You also seem to be ignoring that they are on a timetable and have no idea how much time is ON that table. It was quicker, safer and more efficient, so it was done.


Killing is never just. It is sometimes unavoidable, but such a decision should never be taken lightly.

If you took the time to think out 'well maybe if i do this' in battle, you would die. It's harsh but it's true. In war - don't lie, this IS a war - killing is unavoidable.

"Lightly" implies the person likes making the decision. I see no evidence that the elves enjoy killing the hobgoblins.

[DSCrankshaw]

@everyone here saying that Redcloak is a wuss for obeying her:

I really REALLY think that Redcloak has his own masterplan and will backstab Xykon when the time is ripe. But for now he has to do whatever they want until the time is ripe. That's my two scents and I will probably have to wait 200 more updates for it to turn out to be true, but mark my words^^

Or read Start of Darkness.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Yeah, a new one! That was earlier than I expected, it's nice to see it!:smallsmile:

[doodthedud]

Murdering civilians is not ok, war or not. Necessary in your mind, maybe (depending on your viewpoint), but killing them is never acceptable.

If they're off to get the army, it's necessary. Very unfortunate, but necessary. You try to avoid them, but if they stumble in, you can't let those who would get the authorities escape to do so.

[dsavereide]

The goblins think the war is over. The city is theirs. The insurgants think the war is still going on and the city is merely occupied. So war time rules apply. Civilians are killed in wars. Do you blow up a munitions plant knowing that civilians are working in it? You better.

These witnesses were killed while fleeing and would have set off an alarm that would have killed all the released prisoners and many of their saviors. This is a practical choice, one that any soldier would make.

The goblins know the ony crime the prisoneers have committed is being human. And that the only crime those about to be executed have committed is having class levels and therefore making them potentionally more dangerous. So its not like you can claim that they have high standards here.

[doodthedud]

The goblins think the war is over. The city is theirs. The insurgants think the war is still going on and the city is merely occupied. So war time rules apply. Civilians are killed in wars. Do you blow up a munitions plant knowing that civilians are working in it? You better.

These witnesses were killed while fleeing and would have set off an alarm that would have killed all the released prisoners and many of their saviors. This is a practical choice, one that any soldier would make.

The goblins know the ony crime the prisoneers have committed is being human. And that the only crime those about to be executed have committed is having class levels and therefore making them potentionally more dangerous. So its not like you can claim that they have high standards here.

The reasons they were to be executed are not that different to the reason the elves killed the hobgoblin on the roof to begin with. They are a very real threat to those in power over them.

[Kobold-Bard]

Awesome update! I wonder what kind of undead the hobgoblin is?

Looks like a Ghast. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html)


Unless you're suggesting stabbing their eyes out so they can't see where they're going and/or that they could tell on sight that the couple was mute so they couldn't tell anyone or scream for help, this isn't a viable option.
Non-lethal could equal an arrow to the leg. Enough damage to put HP to 0, but not serious enough to kill.

I doubt the elves would've prepared spells with morality before neccesity.
They seem to be tactically sound. Glitterdust would work well in both the attack situation and for the Goblin couple, as an eg.

Still leaves too many problems, such as escape, the fact they could still speak, and there's still the matter of gouging their eyes out.
Huh? When they get found they can tell Redcloak what he already knows, people turned up and got some prisoners out. What do they know of such importance that telling it will mess up the Elves plan?

You also seem to be ignoring that they are on a timetable and have no idea how much time is ON that table. It was quicker, safer and more efficient, so it was done.
I know that, but hitting them with a non-lethal arrow takes the same time as a lethal one. I can understand them killing soldiers, but party goers are not fair game in my mind. Obviously you disagree, which is fine.

[doodthedud]

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html"]
Huh? When they get found they can tell Redcloak what he already knows, people turned up and got some prisoners out. What do they know of such importance that telling it will mess up the Elves plan?


As you can see by the goblinoids in this comic, the direction they went is very important tactical data. They're more clueless than you thought.

[Kumo]

Non-lethal could equal an arrow to the leg. Enough damage to put HP to 0, but not serious enough to kill.How likely is that to work?


They seem to be tactically sound.For a hit-and-fade, not taking prisoners.


Glitterdust would work well in both the attack situation and for the Goblin couple, as an eg.I don't know what Glitterdust does so i can't really answer that.


Huh? When they get found they can tell Redcloak what he already knows, people turned up and got some prisoners out. What do they know of such importance that telling it will mess up the Elves plan?

"They went thata-way"

Hundreds of people can only move so fast.


I know that, but hitting them with a non-lethal arrow takes the same time as a lethal one. I can understand them killing soldiers, but party goers are not fair game in my mind. Obviously you disagree, which is fine.

Correct me if i'm wrong: a non-lethal arrow does less damage than a lethal one, right? That means it would most likely take more shots to get them down, and even then there's still the fact they can be healed and they can give information about the enemy.

[Black]

The goblins think the war is over. The city is theirs. The insurgants think the war is still going on and the city is merely occupied. So war time rules apply. Civilians are killed in wars. Do you blow up a munitions plant knowing that civilians are working in it? You better.

These witnesses were killed while fleeing and would have set off an alarm that would have killed all the released prisoners and many of their saviors. This is a practical choice, one that any soldier would make.

The goblins know the ony crime the prisoneers have committed is being human. And that the only crime those about to be executed have committed is having class levels and therefore making them potentionally more dangerous. So its not like you can claim that they have high standards here.

No, actually, any soldier who makes that decision would have committed a war crime. There is a difference between accidentally killing civilians in a war zone and consciously choosing without any duress to murder a defenseless surrender and civilians. Don't join the military. You might end up in a prison cell.

And just because your enemy has committed evil does not mean you are allowed to do it to them. The war crimes the allied forces committed during WWII on German civilians and prisoners of war are criminal just as the war crimes committed on the other side were crimes.

I don't know what I would do if I were at a convention filled with people who condone evil for convenience. This is all aside from the fact that the elves probably would love nothing more than the extermination of all goblins, something completely heinous and objectionable.

If you want to believe that it is justified to kill 1 to save 100, go ahead. I find that disgusting and completely reprehensible. It is also philosophically unsound: If rights are determined by number, then no one has any rights as it is justified for others to violate them for their own convenience. I am glad I don't live in a society with laws and customs modeled on your tenuous morality.

[DeltaEmil]

You can't really deal non-lethal damage with a non-melee weapon like a bow and arrow, unless you have some obscure mercy-enchantment on your weapons. Although mercy might still not work on a bow and arrow.

[Antacid]

How about "irked?"

Or "bored," to whatever extent boredom and annoyance fail to overlap."Looking for his car keys" would likely be sufficient justification.

[Kobold-Bard]

How likely is that to work?

It's a flat -4 to hit to do non-lethal. Te leg thing is just fluff about why it's not lethal, you could hit shoulderblades or anything you like.


For a hit-and-fade, not taking prisoners.

I don't know what Glitterdust does so i can't really answer that.

They aren't taking prisoners, they're just leaving them there instead of killing them, which takes the same time.

Glitterdust blinds the crap out of enemies without injuring them.


"They went thata-way"

Hundreds of people can only move so fast.

They obviously move fast enough for Redcloak to not be able to find them now. Having a general direction is only so helpful coz they could change direction once out the city, the Elves could have a Teleport waiting etc.



Correct me if i'm wrong: a non-lethal arrow does less damage than a lethal one, right? That means it would most likely take more shots to get them down, and even then there's still the fact they can be healed and they can give information about the enemy.

They do the same damage, you just take a penalty to hit, which is negligible for presumably unprotected party couples.

[Warren Dew]

The goblins think the war is over. The city is theirs. The insurgants think the war is still going on and the city is merely occupied. So war time rules apply. Civilians are killed in wars. Do you blow up a munitions plant knowing that civilians are working in it? You better.

I actually think civilians still living in legitimate homes are in a different position than civilians that are occupying enemy territory. I'm not sure the latter really qualify as "civilians" from a moral standpoint.

[silvadel]

Tsuikiko is playing with fire here... of a level she knows not....

What I see here is a NEUTRAL-trending Redcloak grating against the EVILs around him. He cares about his troops, not about the prisoners.

Of course there are a lot of redemption tropes that arent exactly nice...

[Strawberries]

I actually think civilians still living in legitimate homes are in a different position than civilians that are occupying enemy territory. I'm not sure the latter really qualify as "civilians" from a moral standpoint.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but... there are children among the hobgoblins. Do they not " really qualify as "civilians" from a moral standpoint", either? :smallconfused:

[DeltaEmil]

It's a flat -4 to hit to do non-lethal. Te leg thing is just fluff about why it's not lethal, you could hit shoulderblades or anything you like.Only if you could use the bow as a melee-weapon in close combat. I sincerely doubt that the hobgoblin pair got near the insurgent's archers closer than 30 feet away.

[Dr._Demento]

I agree that this is an example of Guerrilla Warfare, not Terrorism.

SO far, the Elvish Insurgents have:
Attacked a Prison during a celebration
Killed all Guards
Freed Human Prisoners (assumed Friendlies, some with fighting ability)
Killed a Hobgoblin Prisoner (Speciest overtones here)
Killed Hobgoblin Couple (assumed to be witnesses)

Attacking a prison can be considered attacking a legitimate target, as it was with the intent of freeing prisoners, not killing them.
Killing Guards is killing military combatants, also legitimate
Freeing Prisoners is reasonable
Killing the prisoner, in my opinion, was an example of the nature of the conflict. There are clearly defined sides in the eyes of most people. I see this akin to WWII in the Pacific Theater, where there was no quarter, period. Goblins are the enemy, and the elves are going to defeat them at any cost (Team Peregrine that is). I doubt goblins will show much mercy at this point either.
Killing the Hobgoblin Couple, I doubt the elves lost any sleep over this, but that is war. Someone sees you trying to escape, and you kill them. You don't have the time to hunt them down and you don't take the risk that they escape. You shoot them and leave. It is brutal, but war is brutal, which is why we try to avoid it.

[Black]

I actually think civilians still living in legitimate homes are in a different position than civilians that are occupying enemy territory. I'm not sure the latter really qualify as "civilians" from a moral standpoint.

This is a good point. I would contest that Azure City is only a battle zone right now because the insurgents choose to stay in the city. It is their onus to uphold the laws of war so long as they commit to combat against an enemy that is no longer mobilized.

If the resistance remains in the city after they have freed every imprisoned human, then they have no reason to be there other than retaliation, and not even retaliation that would recapture the city for them. If they were interested in fighting the war in a just manner they would withdraw from the city when they have freed all the humans they can.

But anyway, intent does play a part in determining the morality of an act. Elves are genocidal freaks. This has been established by their own dialogue and self-professed predilections. They killed those goblins because they wanted to kill them for being goblins. It was not the heat of battle. They were not under duress and had to make snap decisions. It was fully within their means to spare their lives without jeopardizing their plans (and even then, it is globally considered criminal to violate the laws of war for convenience). They chose not to because they are committed to an evil doctrine.

They are no better than murderers.

[magic9mushroom]

If Redcloak would have killed her right then and there for that, he would have earned my respect.
But instead, he choose to be a cowardly wuss.

Oh, right, because Redcloak's going to go up against Xykon, is he?

What are his options?

1) Let Tsukiko do it.

2) Kill Tsukiko, be forced to animate them all himself by Xykon while the latter laughs.

3) Stop Tsukiko but not kill her, watch her provide her proposal to Xykon and more hobbos get killed and animated - and then Xykon would probably animate the rest anyway just to piss Redcloak off.

4) Rebel against Xykon, die miserably.

Redcloak put reason before honor there, and I applaud him for it.

@Dr. Demento: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[Black]

I love how well you communicate your feelings and yet somehow manage to say nothing. Murder can be either immoral killing or unlawful killing. If the former then your statement is tautological, if the latter I'll assume definition 1 (http://www.google.co.uk/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=convenience) and then you are correct, having managed to say something so blindingly obvious that noone will dispute it. Of course killing is not solely justified by someone's convenience! However the safety of many people CAN justify killing.

Killing prisoners of war and civilians is considered murder. It is a war crime. It is murder by modern standards.

[silvadel]

One other thing people are missing...

She is using CREATE UNDEAD... These arent zombies -- these are the higher level undead. Hence their souls are being played with.

[Kumo]

It's a flat -4 to hit to do non-lethal. Te leg thing is just fluff about why it's not lethal, you could hit shoulderblades or anything you like.Ok. That still leaves the number of shots required and the fact they don't need to be able to move to be witnesses.


They aren't taking prisoners, they're just leaving them there instead of killing them, which takes the same time.I used that term to emphasize the point in this manner: taking prisoners requires taking them down without killing them. The point was they weren't planning to show any mercy to anyone there and therefore wouldn't have prepared for it (don't forget, the couple and the prisoner were unforeseen variables)


Glitterdust blinds the crap out of enemies without injuring them.How long does it last and how useful easily useable would it be in battle?




They obviously move fast enough for Redcloak to not be able to find them now. Having a general direction is only so helpful coz they could change direction once out the city, the Elves could have a Teleport waiting etc.Time passed between strips, remember. The masses held a festival, and the guard shift changed. That would take a few hours.





They do the same damage, you just take a penalty to hit, which is negligible for presumably unprotected party couples.

Still can be witnesses, as mentioned above.

[Gift Jeraff]

Thoughts on Tsukiko's necromancy:
-I can't tell whether the colour of her Create Undead spell matches her divine (light blue) or arcane (dark blue) magic; it looks like a blend of the two to me. Anyway, her wizard class might still be a diviner with necromancy barred. :smallamused:
-The fact that a ghast is apparently her answer to "high-end undead" might indicate that she is no higher than 14th level. Another possibility is that Rich wanted to go with realism and having mummy cloth spawn out of nowhere might be too silly, but I doubt that.

[Kumo]

Thoughts on Tsukiko's necromancy:
-I can't tell whether the colour of her Create Undead spell matches her divine (light blue) or arcane (dark blue) magic; it looks like a blend of the two to me. Anyway, her wizard class might still be a diviner with necromancy barred. :smallamused:
-The fact that a ghast is apparently her answer to "high-end undead" might indicate that she is no higher than 14th level. Another possibility is that Rich wanted to go with realism and having mummy cloth spawn out of nowhere might be too silly, but I doubt that.

or it's a different kind of undead. There's only so many ways to show rotten, reanimated flesh, after all.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Kumosabe

Still can be witnesses, as mentioned above.

Who can provide less information than the goblin corpses after one Speak with Dead

[Kumo]

Posted by Kumosabe


Who can provide less information than the goblin corpses after one Speak with Dead

Dead goblins can't see where their enemies are going and it doesn't look to me like they care about casting speak with dead anyway.

[TriForce]

Yay for fast update!
And this is really telling...I have a feeling that Redcloak's going to get the boot from Xykon soon...

EDIT: ...Arrows in the back. And now I'm even more disgusted by the elves' actions.

yes, becouse letting them escape and call for help (risking the death of prisoners AND resistance) is much preferable to 2 extra deaths of a people thats sitting in a city they got by conquest, enslavement and murder

[comicshorse]

Posted by Kumosabe

Dead goblins can't see where their enemies are going

Well (a) they don't need to as the bodies tell where they were going ( as Redcloak points out) (B) over a 100 people waking in the same direction if the goblins haven't got somebody who can track that they are very deprived

[Solara]

Killing prisoners of war and civilians is considered murder. It is a war crime. It is murder by modern standards.


(and even then, it is globally considered criminal to violate the laws of war for convenience).


What are these 'laws of war' and 'modern standards' you speak of?

Also, didn't we already establish in the last strip that this particular group of elves are a**holes? (not quite ready to condemn the entire race yet like so many of you seem to be doing...) But we're still going ot have the entire alignment debate all over again?

For what it's worth, in my book throwing a chained up, cooperating prisoner off a roof is Evil--acting quickly and decisively to keep a couple of actual threats from sounding the alarm and bringing a bunch of soldiers and wights in to slaughter 112 chained up, defenseless prisoners, not so much.

If anything I thought this strip had a nice reminder that neither side was exactly black or white, with the revelation that eighteen of those prisoners were fixing to be killed just as mercilessly as the guy who got tossed off the roof, with their executioners probably being just as bigoted.

Honestly though, I'm remembering now why I get so sick of these discussions. We have got some incredibly self-righteous armchair moralizers in this community, always ready to pick apart every action of every character from a thousand angles and completely ignoring the fact that the characters themselves don't have this luxury. If you could take a few pivotal moments of any of our lives and freeze them in time for other people to pick over and scrutinize and criticize I'm sure we've all done plenty of things that in hindsight aren't 'morally justified' or even remotely intelligent. The thing is, in a volatile situation where lives are at stake, you can't take hours or even minutes to go over every possible plan and result and how moral it would be and how it would look from the other person's point of view, you just act. Or else you die.

Annnyway, despite all the typing I did on a completely unrelated subject, the most interesting thing about this comic was what Redcloak's going through. The fact that Xykon is giving her advice on how to keep him from getting 'uppity' does not bode well at all...just goes to underline how things have changed from the invasion strips when they were having a laugh at her expense.

[DoctorIllithid]

Woah, that comic was earlier than I expected.

[Nerocite]

I really enjoyed the "cop drama" remark.

Thanks Giant.

[Kumo]

Posted by Kumosabe


Well (a) they don't need to as the bodies tell where they were going ( as Redcloak points out) (B) over a 100 people waking in the same direction if the goblins haven't got somebody who can track that they are very deprived

a) i was referring to the goblins who were guarding the jail and to the fact that they would have to have seen that occuring to have any knowledge of it which is why they were killed BEFORE moving. If you're referring to the couple, being killed by arrows implies they were shot from far away, before they had a clear idea where the escaped prisoners were going.

b) Ok, first? that point it an incredibly stupid one for a morality debate and is frankly closer to a plot hole. Second, Why make it easy for your enemy, especially since they have at least two spellcasters with them.

[Icewraith]

Glitterdust?

Yes let's conjure a big cloud of SPARKLY DUST (easily visible from a distance) to nonlethally blind any hobgoblins who wander into our SECRET RAID so that we can divert extra forces from our sentries to cast zone of truth and make sure they're not actually goblin combatants so we don't accidentally kill some of the people who conquered and occupied our allies' city. Oh wait, we'll also need to simultaneously silence the intruders since being caught in a cloud of glitterdust doesn't prevent you from making noise. Granted, you might not be able to yell "help!" but you could certainly cough loudly. Also I believe there's a save involved.

Arrows in the back instead quickly ensure the safety and security of the mission, the elves, the resistance, and the rescued prisoners.

Furthermore, if the interlopers turn out to be goblin soldiers and not civilians (assuming such a thing exists) then the resistance has to kill them anyway. However, this certainly falls under the same description of "torture" as the people who complained about the elven commander making a joke to/of the hobgoblin prisoner/probable spy/security threat before offing him. 1-2 rounds of conversation and a swift death vs being choked and blinded for a number of rounds and then executed anyways? If I get to pick I'll take the arrows in the back, please.

It is a commando raid. A civilian goblin who wanders into the area isn't a noncombatant, he/she is a immediate threat to the security of the operation and the lives of everyone involved in it (by virtue of being able to raise his/her voice and call for help)- azurites, elves, and prisoners. Being overly concerned with the welfare of the occupying force's civilians isn't something an effective resistance can be concerned with, and if a player in my game started this sort of moralizing in the middle of a critical situation like this I would almost consider it metagaming - the player is inflicting their 20th century ethics course on the PC and the rest of the group in the middle of a high fantasy group roleplay/wargaming scenario.

Even if someone objects about Paladins, I'd say the Paladin's duty to protect the nearly helpless prisoners far outweighs the Paladin's duty to protect enemy "civilians" while enemy territory and whose pose a very real threat in the form of a 30 ft/round movement speed and the ability to force listen checks on all nearby goblinoid personnel in an unspecified but rather large radius.

Argue differently all you want, but try to argue in a manner that doesn't render your character wight bait in the same situation.

Oh and Tsukiko ftw. I chuckled at "I CRAVE MORTAL FLESH!"

[Tyrael Maal]

This is ironic. I just finish reading start of darkness last night and now there's a large reference the moment I check back in to OOTS.

Add in the unexpected update and this shocks me even more. O.o

[KiwiImperator]

This is a good point. I would contest that Azure City is only a battle zone right now because the insurgents choose to stay in the city. It is their onus to uphold the laws of war so long as they commit to combat against an enemy that is no longer mobilized.

EDIT: (Sorry, dropped part of the quote there.)
If the resistance remains in the city after they have freed every imprisoned human, then they have no reason to be there other than retaliation, and not even retaliation that would recapture the city for them. If they were interested in fighting the war in a just manner they would withdraw from the city when they have freed all the humans they can.

This is completely ludicrous. You cannot condemn insurgents for refusing to allow someone to take possession of their city simply because they no longer want to fight over it.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Kemosabe

If you're referring to the couple, being killed by arrows implies they were shot from far away, before they had a clear idea where the escaped prisoners were going.

Well if they have no clear idea where the prisoners are going WHY KILL THEM ?

As for why make it easier for the enemy. Well that depends what you priorities are, saving a few minutes work or not killing tow unarmed civiliains

[Black]

What are these 'laws of war' and 'modern standards' you speak of?

Also, didn't we already establish in the last strip that this particular group of elves are a**holes? (not quite ready to condemn the entire race yet like so many of you seem to be doing...) But we're still going ot have the entire alignment debate all over again?

For what it's worth, in my book throwing a chained up, cooperating prisoner off a roof is Evil--acting quickly and decisively to keep a couple of actual threats from sounding the alarm and bringing a bunch of soldiers and wights in to slaughter 112 chained up, defenseless prisoners, not so much.

If anything I thought this strip had a nice reminder that neither side was exactly black or white, with the revelation that eighteen of those prisoners were fixing to be killed just as mercilessly as the guy who got tossed off the roof, with their executioners probably being just as bigoted.

Honestly though, I'm remembering now why I get so sick of these discussions. We have got some incredibly self-righteous armchair moralizers in this community, always ready to pick apart every action of every character from a thousand angles and completely ignoring the fact that the characters themselves don't have this luxury. If you could take a few pivotal moments of any of our lives and freeze them in time for other people to pick over and scrutinize and criticize I'm sure we've all done plenty of things that in hindsight aren't 'morally justified' or even remotely intelligent. The thing is, in a volatile situation where lives are at stake, you can't take hours or even minutes to go over every possible plan and result and how moral it would be and how it would look from the other person's point of view, you just act. Or else you die.

Annnyway, despite all the typing I did on a completely unrelated subject, the most interesting thing about this comic was what Redcloak's going through. The fact that Xykon is giving her advice on how to keep him from getting 'uppity' does not bode well at all...just goes to underline how things have changed from the invasion strips when they were having a laugh at her expense.

Yes, it has not been established that all elves are genocidal freaks. Certainly we can assume that most are only predisposed to violent recourse because of centuries of enmity, and most would rather be peaceful. Certainly Vaarsuvius does not let bigotry blind his judgement. He has enough arrogance to do it all by himself :smallsmile: And certainly his family seem to be pacifist. In fact, I am willing to presume that his family is kind and understanding and would not murder a goblin for being a goblin. I bet most elves who do not make a living out of violence, like adventurers and soldiers, would be hesitant to be so ferociously hateful. And the adventurers and soldiers mostly would be quick to violence because they are desensitized to it through routine exposure.

But these certain elves are abhorrent creatures. If they regret their actions and seek atonement, they can be forgiven surely. But they won't with their current attitudes. They would revel in the elimination of an entire race.

This is ignoring the thorny issue of the culpability of the complacent.

Less civilized times have considered the rape and murder of defenseless individuals condoned during wartime. I choose to exclude this barbarism by qualifying the morality from which I speak. Apparently there are some of those amongst my fellow human beings that do not value the rights and dignity of an individual as the fundamental spirit of western law does, and it disturbs me.

I understand that I am making an appeal to authority, but only to establish that my point of view is considered legitimate by much of the world. I dare someone to say that I am immoral. If you have the temerity to do so, my hat off to you.

And I am confused by your anecdote. What of this discussion has reminded you of "self-righteous armchair moralizers in this community, always ready to pick apart every action of every character from a thousand angles and completely ignoring the fact that the characters themselves don't have this luxury". Who are these people that you speak of?

I am being self-righteous right now. I also happen to be sitting in an armchair. I am curious to see who has "picked apart every action of every character from a thousand angles". Certainly I have established my position from the situation at face-value, without considering anything but what has occurred and what the comic has stated explicitly. If you are going to characterize someone, perhaps it should be me instead of someone who hasn't posted.

I have made mistakes in my life, and so has everyone else. But I have apologized for wrongs, and regret my mistakes. I am ashamed of the times I have been filled with malice and bigotry. I hope that I am beyond those things and continue to be mindful of my actions.

These elves, on the other hand, not only committed evil acts, they enjoyed it in all its perversity. Your characterization of the situation is incorrect. They did not do this in the heat of the moment. They had enough time to string along their prisoner of war to gain a morbid punchline to their atrocity. They were not in combat at the time, they were leading prisoners away. They shot a couple in the back with arrows when they had magical assistance at hand. Should not a soldier with magic have spells at hand such as hold person/monster so as to neutralize civilians that may be a threat to their operation?

And how much thought and consideration does it take not to kill someone? It does not take hours or minutes to make such a decision. It was in their capability in principle and probably in practice to be able to neutralize noncombatants without killing them.

Apparently you only have enough time to make a joke out of murder in the heat of not-combat.

P.S. I am completely confident that morality is a key theme of Rich's story and that is why I make my rhetoric passionate. OOTS is not just a story or a gag-a-day. I refuse to let people marginalize important aspects of the work with feeble justifications of immoral acts without screaming at them. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm right or wrong. I state my position only to make people think. If you choose not to consider the issue in the detail it deserves, fair enough.

Edit P. P. S.


This is completely ludicrous. You cannot condemn insurgents for refusing to allow someone to take possession of their city simply because they no longer want to fight over it.

They do not have to fight. They are not defending themselves. They have a choice in staying and fighting or leaving (perhaps to come back with an army to retake the city, this is acceptable). Since they have a choice in fighting, they are responsible for doing so without committing atrocities.

I am not condemning them for staying and fighting... so long as they have a realistic and honorable goal to achieve in doing so: terrorism is not one, freeing prisoners and attacking military targets are. But since they are choosing to stay and fight, I hold them culpable for criminal acts they commit.

[Kumo]

Posted by Kemosabe


Well if they have no clear idea where the prisoners are going WHY KILL THEM ?

Read it again and then tell me if you understand the meaning of the word BEFORE.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Kemosabe

Read it again and then tell me if you understand the meaning of the word BEFORE.

Seems fairly clear. How were they going to learn more while they were running away ? Eyes in the back of there heads ?


I think this is far enough of the original point to reAch the point of uselessness. Night all

[Slayn82]

I just think that this comic is setting an Chekovs on Tsukiko and RC right here. Specifically an Karmic Death. Its nasty to have an Mistic Theurge Minionmancer fight a full leveled evil cleric when said cleric can Fascinate Undead, and take over the control of her minions. Guess she will end up being eaten by Undead Goblins. Specially if she can fail such low concentration checks against RC, who is among the least menacing melee characther in the comic.

[DeltaEmil]

If the insurgents really wanted to spare the civilians (assuming they even knew they were unarmed civilians), they'd have used sleep, not glitterdust. Of course, sleep only works on low-hit dice creature. If the two had more than 4 combined hit dice total, it wouldn't work.

Also, a hundred malnourished prisoners still in manacles aren't going to run that fast away if anybody decides to call Tsukiko's elite team.

[Ridureyu]

1. Again, the elves and Azurites are NOT justified in this senseless slaughter.

2. Redcloak should have killed Tsukiko. If Xykon complains, just say, "She was disrespectful to us both. Reanimate her if you want her back."

Besides, she's Azurite scum, and the world will be a better place when every single one of them is wiped off the face of the earth. Azurites are born bad, and need to die. Stop trying to make them look nice by calling them "prisoners." If Redcloak had any balls, he'd have had the whole lot of them tossed into the Rift first thing.

[DeltaEmil]

1. Again, the elves and Azurites are NOT justified in this senseless slaughter.It wasn't senseless.

2. Redcloak should have killed Tsukiko. If Xykon complains, just say, "She was disrespectful to us both. Reanimate her if you want her back."Xykon doesn't complain. He just kills a few goblins who desperatly scream for their prophet to save them in vain. And then forces Redcloak to animate them himself, as they're on a schedule. If he's extra mean, he'll force Redcloak to kill the goblinoids himself, while they're desperatly screaming for their prophet to save them in vain.

[Ridureyu]

It wasn't senseless.

Genocidal monsters assisting other genocidal monsters in mass-goblin-slaughter so they can free more genocidal monsters sounds pretty senseless to me.

[Mastikator]

Oh, right, because Redcloak's going to go up against Xykon, is he?

What are his options?

1) Let Tsukiko do it.

2) Kill Tsukiko, be forced to animate them all himself by Xykon while the latter laughs.

3) Stop Tsukiko but not kill her, watch her provide her proposal to Xykon and more hobbos get killed and animated - and then Xykon would probably animate the rest anyway just to piss Redcloak off.

4) Rebel against Xykon, die miserably.

Redcloak put reason before honor there, and I applaud him for it.

@Dr. Demento: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Redcloak could easily have killed her, destroyed her body and lied to Xykon that it was self-defense (and have his loyal subjects back up his story).
Xykon might force Redcloak to animate them himself for his amusement, though I seriously doubt he'd do it as some form of punishment for killing her, mostly just his amusement.

She clearly showed that she is not his ally. Redcloak wouldn't be able to save any hobgoblins, but at least she'd be out of the way.

[Kumo]

But these certain elves are abhorrent creatures. If they regret their actions and seek atonement, they can be forgiven surely. But they won't with their current attitudes. They would revel in the elimination of an entire race.

This is ignoring the thorny issue of the culpability of the complacent.

Less civilized times have considered the rape and murder of defenseless individuals condoned during wartime. I choose to exclude this barbarism by qualifying the morality from which I speak. Apparently there are some of those amongst my fellow human beings that do not value the rights and dignity of an individual as the fundamental spirit of western law does, and it disturbs me.

I understand that I am making an appeal to authority, but only to establish that my point of view is considered legitimate by much of the world. I dare someone to say that I am immoral. If you have the temerity to do so, my hat off to you.You are moral to the point of idiocy which is another kind of immoral for expecting soldiers to act as if they are not in a war ON THE BATTLEFIELD.


These elves, on the other hand, not only committed evil acts, they enjoyed it in all its perversity.No, they did not. Find me one place where any of these elves smiled, grinned, laughed, or showed any sign of enjoyment.
Your characterization of the situation is incorrect. They did not do this in the heat of the moment. They had enough time to string along their prisoner of war to gain a morbid punchline to their atrocity. They were not in combat at the time, they were leading prisoners away.But they were still in a battlefield, in a dangerous area.

Should not a soldier with magic have spells at hand such as hold person/monster so as to neutralize civilians that may be a threat to their operation?Not when they don't expect them to show up and frankly i don't think they should even if they do. That's like saying soldiers should have two machine guns, one filled with rubber bullets to use on civilians.


And how much thought and consideration does it take not to kill someone? It does not take hours or minutes to make such a decision. It was in their capability in principle and probably in practice to be able to neutralize noncombatants without killing them.For us, it actually takes more time to kill. For them, murder is how they stay alive and it really does take longer for them not to kill.

Also: it doesn't have to take minutes, or even A minute. A few seconds is all it really takes for a situation to turn bad, particularly in battle, which this was, don't lie to yourself.


Apparently you only have enough time to make a joke out of murder in the heat of not-combat.

You seem to think these soldiers were not at risk just because the prisoners were being led away. Is this the case, because it would explain a lot of your arguments.


They do not have to fight. They are not defending themselves. They have a choice in staying and fighting or leaving (perhaps to come back with an army to retake the city, this is acceptable). Since they have a choice in fighting, they are responsible for doing so without committing atrocities.They are fighting to retake their city, not to take someone else's (i couldn't think of a better way to put it, i know it doesn't make much sense)


I am not condemning them for staying and fighting... so long as they have a realistic and honorable goal to achieve in doing so: terrorism is not one, freeing prisoners and attacking military targets are. But since they are choosing to stay and fight, I hold them culpable for criminal acts they commit.Terrorism? It's guerilla warfare. If terrorism was their goal they would have directly assaulted a civilian target, not a prison filled with their own men.

[KiwiImperator]

Genocidal monsters assisting other genocidal monsters in mass-goblin-slaughter so they can free more genocidal monsters sounds pretty senseless to me.

Actually, that makes perfect sense. You want to commit genocide, so you go and get your genocidal friends out of prison. What about it is senseless?

[DeltaEmil]

Genocidal monsters assisting other genocidal monsters in mass-goblin-slaughter so they can free more genocidal monsters sounds pretty senseless to me.You just said it yourself. It was to free more genocidal monsters, so that they can continue mass-slaughtering goblins (although 47 guards is kinda low - The order of the stick alone butchered more than that in Dorukan's dungeon).
Senseless would be to just kill the goblins because they can, and then kill all azurite prisoners, because they also can, and then kill the azurite insurgents under Than, because they can do it again. And then do the Moondance.

[Ridureyu]

Actually, that makes perfect sense. You want to commit genocide, so you go and get your genocidal friends out of prison. What about it is senseless?


The point is, it's totally unjustifiable. The only good thing to do now is to hunt down and slaughter every single Azurite left. Redcloak really needs to get the hobgoblins to hunt down the ones who escaped on those ships, too.

[Solara]

And I am confused by your anecdote. What of this discussion has reminded you of "self-righteous armchair moralizers in this community, always ready to pick apart every action of every character from a thousand angles and completely ignoring the fact that the characters themselves don't have this luxury". Who are these people that you speak of?


To clarify, I said 'these kinds of discussions', meaning alignment debates in general. They're all based on looking at a character's action in hindsight, using hindsight and information and perspectives said character had no access to when they did what they did, and typically rely on a whole bunch of assumptions on things that didn't even take place in the comic and are purely speculation. (For an example of the latter, the truth is we don't know a thing about the circumstances of those two goblins that got shot...were they racist soldiers/slavers themselves who were commenting on how great the human baby-barbeque was when they stumbled on the escape and immediately tried to raise the alarm or were they innocent civilians who were chased and shot down while begging for their lives by gleefully laughing elves who then peed on their corpses, or was it something in between? Nobody knows, but of course that doesn't stop anybody from making whatever assumption best supports their own personal viewpoint....)

[Kumo]

Seems fairly clear. How were they going to learn more while they were running away ? Eyes in the back of there heads?

Ever looked back to see if someone was chasing you, for one?

(EDIT: I mean that they have no idea what those hobgoblins might have seen while running away.)

Two, there's still the issue of them calling the horde over to their location. The party wasn't all that far away.

For another, why is everybody using 'speak with dead' as an excuse despite the fact that speak with dead would have come in handy in a lot of places and has only been used ONCE in the entire comic, and they do not appear to be concerned with speaking with dead anyway?

[KiwiImperator]

The point is, it's totally unjustifiable. The only good thing to do now is to hunt down and slaughter every single Azurite left. Redcloak really needs to get the hobgoblins to hunt down the ones who escaped on those ships, too.

You seem confused. It's entirely justifiable. Here's why.
There are a bunch of goblins in a city that doesn't belong to them, having enslaved the people who used to live there. They worship a cult that seeks to end the world, or in a best case scenario enslave the gods.
What is the correct course of action here, assuming you are allied with the people whose city was taken? The answer is, of course, take it back. There's no way to do this that isn't going to involve copious slaughter of goblins, as they probably don't want to part with their ill-gotten gains. If you're going to slaughter that many goblins, you're going to need help.
Oh look! A handy prison full of disgruntled slaves, some of whom have combat experience! Not only is it totally justifiable, it is a good plan. I'd probably have done the same thing, except with more fire.

[Xorbon]

Great comic! I loved the punchline!

"Hello little one. I'm your Mommy."

"I crave mortal flesh!"

"Awww, baby wants his num-num, doesn't he?"

Classic. :smallbiggrin:

[Icewraith]

47 guards and 2 interlopers killed? That's not genocide, that's just 100% of the enemy combatants in the area. If you must use military terms, "Glorious Victory" would be much more appropriate.

If the elves are also even 6th level that's hardly breaking a sweat- I've seen a party of four second level PCs take out a camp of 18 goblins and all survive (most of them quite handily). If they just wanted to butcher goblin civilians, team peregrine could probably depopulate a good swath of Azure City before Tsukiko dropped down on their heads.

[Kumo]

The point is, it's totally unjustifiable. The only good thing to do now is to hunt down and slaughter every single Azurite left. Redcloak really needs to get the hobgoblins to hunt down the ones who escaped on those ships, too.

ya know what amazes me?

These same people that say Azurites are genocidists and that's evil (which is crud) then say the azurites should be genocidically exterminated.

granted, you in particular probably did that on purpose...


47 guards and 3 interlopers killed?

You forgot the hobgoblin prisoner :smalltongue:

[DeltaEmil]

The point is, it's totally unjustifiable. The only good thing to do now is to hunt down and slaughter every single Azurite left. Redcloak really needs to get the hobgoblins to hunt down the ones who escaped on those ships, too.It is justifiable. The prisoner and the couple were a security risk they couldn't afford. After all, some people operate under the saying 'the end justifies the means'. Like the elven commando assisting the azurite insurgents.
That does not mean that the acts were perhaps good at all.

[Solara]

Guys, read Ridureyu's sig. I got really pissed off at him myself the other day until someone was kind enough to point it out. :D

[Ridureyu]

You seem confused. It's entirely justifiable. Here's why.
There are a bunch of goblins in a city that doesn't belong to them, having enslaved the people who used to live there. They worship a cult that seeks to end the world, or in a best case scenario enslave the gods.
What is the correct course of action here, assuming you are allied with the people whose city was taken? The answer is, of course, take it back. There's no way to do this that isn't going to involve copious slaughter of goblins, as they probably don't want to part with their ill-gotten gains. If you're going to slaughter that many goblins, you're going to need help.
Oh look! A handy prison full of disgruntled slaves, some of whom have combat experience! Not only is it totally justifiable, it is a good plan. I'd probably have done the same thing, except with more fire.


Wow, you are really misinformed. Okay, here are the facts:

1. Azurites are irredeemable genocidal monsters. Their past history is nothing but slaughtering innocent goblins and taking their land. Where do you think they GOT this "azure City," after all? They aren't smart enough to build anythig like that themselves, so clearly they stole it from the goblins they killed.

2. Goblins are by nature good and peace-loving. it's not their fault they are forced into war.

Just two points, but you really need to realize them in order to understand this comic.


I read and love the comic all the time, but my forum attendanced is pretty inconsistent. I do, however, have a tendency to pop in whenever I can tease one side of the population.

[Kumo]

"Don't call me a baby you [censored]!!! I'm at least ten years older than you!!"

:smallbiggrin: Just crossed my mind

[Icewraith]

Interestingly enough, the only reason the resistance has even lasted this long has got to be the cloister effect, since Tsukiko is familiar with Thanh and could scry him easily if she could. The resistance has three options that determine their long-term survivability:

1. Xyxkon re-casts Cloister and leaves with the high level casters. The resistance is probably on a much more even footing with the remaining Goblins

2. Xykon leaves with the high level casters before re-casting Cloister. The effect wears off, but in the meantime the resistance takes advantage of the lack of diviniations in the area and does serious damage. There will probably be onugh remaining Goblins to wipe the floor with the resistance from a numbers standpoint though.

3. Worst case: Xykon's phylactery is recovered about the same time as the Cloister effect is wearing off. Redcloak convinces Xykon to give him twenty minutes. Redcloak, Tsukiko and the Wight Squad blow the resistance out of the water and teleport out to the gate.

[Kumo]

Wow, you are really misinformed. Okay, here are the facts:

1. Azurites are irredeemable genocidal monsters. Their past history is nothing but slaughtering innocent goblins and taking their land. Where do you think they GOT this "azure City," after all? They aren't smart enough to build anythig like that themselves, so clearly they stole it from the goblins they killed.

2. Goblins are by nature good and peace-loving. it's not their fault they are forced into war.

Just two points, but you really need to realize them in order to understand this comic.
Their anti-goblin campaign didn't begin until after they learned of the crimson mantle and The Plan - Azure city existed long before that.

Why am i responding to you as if i think you're being serious?

I don't know.

[Black]

Kumosabe: If you can't even attempt to create a coherent response to my post instead of dissecting it in a most unnatural way, sentence by sentence, in order to reply in bite-sized one-liners stilted and isolated from each other as opposed to united as one, and if you can't attempt to refrain from letting passion move you to childish ad hominem, I do not see any reason why I should attempt to engage you in conversation.

My posts stand as coherent units. Sentences, ideas, statements support each other. It is rude to interrupt someone while they are speaking. It is just as rude to rip apart a written argument into shreds for digestion. Also it is *really* hard to read posts when they are interrupted by quotes every line and I post for the pleasure of discourse, not the arduous work of piecing together someone's position from a jig-saw puzzle for them.


To clarify, I said 'these kinds of discussions', meaning alignment debates in general. They're all based on looking at a character's action in hindsight, using hindsight and information and perspectives said character had no access to when they did what they did, and typically rely on a whole bunch of assumptions on things that didn't even take place in the comic and are purely speculation. (For an example of the latter, the truth is we don't know a thing about the circumstances of those two goblins that got shot...were they racist soldiers/slavers themselves who were commenting on how great the human baby-barbeque was when they stumbled on the escape and immediately tried to raise the alarm or were they innocent civilians who were chased and shot down while begging for their lives by gleefully laughing elves who then peed on their corpses, or was it something in between? Nobody knows, but of course that doesn't stop anybody from making whatever assumption best supports their own personal viewpoint....)

This is a good point. I take the comic at face value when I assume that the goblin police officer is giving all the relevant information about the couple.

Also for the record, it is not right to kill someone who is evil just because they are evil. Even if they were baby eaters who just came from a baby eating party, they still deserve due process of law.

I assume that they were not armed because it was not mentioned in the comic and not casters because it was not mentioned in the comic. I think the most reasonable position supported by the facts available to us is that they were unarmed and defenseless.

Even if they were going to raise an alarm, they are still civilians and the insurgents should have a way of pacifying such targets. Certainly their resources are ample enough and the elves have shown considerable magical ability, which all but trivializes such considerations. They were just being ***** about it.

I am sure that this position is best supported by the comic.

[Kumo]

Interestingly enough, the only reason the resistance has even lasted this long has got to be the cloister effect, since Tsukiko is familiar with Thanh and could scry him easily if she could. The resistance has three options that determine their long-term survivability:

1. Xyxkon re-casts Cloister and leaves with the high level casters. The resistance is probably on a much more even footing with the remaining Goblins

2. Xykon leaves with the high level casters before re-casting Cloister. The effect wears off, but in the meantime the resistance takes advantage of the lack of diviniations in the area and does serious damage. There will probably be onugh remaining Goblins to wipe the floor with the resistance from a numbers standpoint though.

3. Worst case: Xykon's phylactery is recovered about the same time as the Cloister effect is wearing off. Redcloak convinces Xykon to give him twenty minutes. Redcloak, Tsukiko and the Wight Squad blow the resistance out of the water and teleport out to the gate.
Divination, transportation and communication spells are only blocked from coming IN. Going out or within the aoe is fine.

[Ridureyu]

Because I sound eerily like a bunch of people who ARE serious?

[KiwiImperator]

Wow, you are really misinformed. Okay, here are the facts:

1. Azurites are irredeemable genocidal monsters. Their past history is nothing but slaughtering innocent goblins and taking their land. Where do you think they GOT this "azure City," after all? They aren't smart enough to build anythig like that themselves, so clearly they stole it from the goblins they killed.

That's a lie and you know it! Those walls were built out of the mortared together corpses of dead goblins, killed with honest, Godfearing Azurian sweat and toil! It is theirs by right!


Goblins are by nature good and peace-loving. it's not their fault they are forced into war.

Just two points, but you really need to realize them in order to understand this comic.

Madness sir, Madness!



I read and love the comic all the time, but my forum attendanced is pretty inconsistent. I do, however, have a tendency to pop in whenever I can tease one side of the population.

So teased, sir, so teased!

[Icewraith]

Wow, you are really misinformed. Okay, here are the facts:

1. Azurites are irredeemable genocidal monsters. Their past history is nothing but slaughtering innocent goblins and taking their land. Where do you think they GOT this "azure City," after all? They aren't smart enough to build anythig like that themselves, so clearly they stole it from the goblins they killed.

2. Goblins are by nature good and peace-loving. it's not their fault they are forced into war.



87 legions? Peace-loving my glutes! Also, the past forty years of Azurite history have mainly been political intrigue, so they're certainly smart enough to build a walled city, just not creative enough to use any colors aside from blue. We know Soon founded the city since there wasn't any purpose for one to be there except for the rift/gate. :p

A bit of taunting for the Azurites: It's not Genocide if your Smite Evil works on it. It's following the commands of your deity on a large, efficient scale.

[Kumo]

Kumosabe: If you can't even attempt to create a coherent response to post instead of dissecting it in a most unnatural way, sentence by sentence, in order to reply in bite-sized one-liners stilted and isolated from each other as opposed to united as one, and if you can't attempt to refrain from letting passion move you to childish ad hominem, I do not see any reason why I should attempt to engage you in conversation.

My posts stand as coherent units. Sentences, ideas, stamentes support each other. It is rude to interrupt someone while they are speaking. It is just as rude to rip apart a written argument into shreds for digestion. Also it is *really* hard to read posts when they are interrupted by quotes every line and I post for the pleasure of discourse, not the arduous work of piecing together someone's position from a jig-saw puzzle for them.

So basically you're not going to respond to any point i make - good or no - because i quote the points i'm actually responding to?

Most people i've done that to appreciate that i point out where in their post they actually said those things. You don't? Fine.

You are immoral for expecting soldiers to act as if they are not in a war ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

The elves did not enjoy it at all. Find me one place where any of these elves smiled, grinned, laughed, or showed any sign of enjoyment.

They may have not been actively engaged in battle but they were still in a battlefield, in a dangerous area, with risks to all their lives for every single mistake.

Should a soldier with magic have spells at hand such as hold person/monster so as to neutralize civilians that may be a threat to their operation? Not when they don't expect them to show up and frankly i don't think they should even if they do. That's like saying soldiers should have two machine guns, one filled with rubber bullets to use on civilians.

For us, it actually takes more time to kill. For them, murder is how they stay alive and it really does take longer for them not to kill.

Also: it doesn't have to take minutes, or even A minute, of delay. A few seconds is all it really takes for a situation to turn bad, particularly in battle, which this was, don't lie to yourself.

You seem to think these soldiers were not at risk, because the prisoners were being led away. Is this the case? Because it would explain a lot of your arguments.

They are fighting to retake their city, not to take someone else's (i couldn't think of a better way to put it, i know it doesn't make much sense)

Also, Terrorism? It's guerilla warfare. If terrorism was their goal they would have directly assaulted a civilian target, not a prison filled with their own men.

There.

[Blaznak]

Necromancers = 100 kinds of cool, all of them creepy :)

[LuisDantas]

Am I the only one who thinks Redcloak will have a Heel Face Turn by the end of the arc?

Actually, maybe a Heel Face Doorslam would be more likely.

No, you are not the only one. :smallwink:

Xykon will probably come to repent the way he has been dealing with Redcloak as of late. By threatening the last few straws of self-respect that RC has to grasp at, he is coming dangerously close to forcing the Goblin into rebellion.

Also, I rather liked RC in this strip (and disliked Tsukiko, not that there is much to like to begin with). He is slowly but surely growing both a spine and a decent moral center.

I'm not surprised that the Goblins seem to know that it was a Elven commando that freed the prisoners (lots of opportunities for witnesses), but I wish it was made more explicit. Are we to assume that Talk With Dead was used off-panel?

The Impotence Special could be a bit clearer. I assume we are to focus on the "to go" part.

[Icewraith]

Divination, transportation and communication spells are only blocked from coming IN. Going out or within the aoe is fine.

If that's the case, the resistance should have been toast for a while now. Locate Object/Person -> Haley's Bow/Haley (Tsukiko is familiar with both, having been shot by Haley more than a few times) plus a couple other divinations and you end up with a leather-clad wight with red hair.

[Kareasint]

Morality aside, the primary reason why you kill every hobgoblin in the area, including two wanderers, is to prevent someone from getting a signal off or shouting a warning. You do not hesitate or mince words.

You rescue 112 prisoners. You need time to get away with them AND cover your tracks. The elves are fighting with an underground resistance. They hit hard and fade or they get stomped.

Tsukiko is insanely evil. That last panel was funny though.

[KiwiImperator]

*Snip*

Yeah, I'm with Kumosabe on this one, Black, you can't expect to post a 500 pound block of text, and then have people try to swallow the whole thing at once. We aren't hardwired to work like that, it turns into an exchange of broadside monologues, which are absolutely no good to anybody, because you can't stop someone in the middle to address a point before they go on to another one, as happens in actual conversation. When you wax verbose on that scale, you inevitably get quote-wars, because there's just no other feasible way to argue. No Mutants Allowed suffered from a particularly dire case of this for a while, if I recall.
And don't get me wrong, I was arguing with Kumosabe not three or four pages ago about something or another, And s/he (you'll forgive me, I cannot fathom what the gender orientation of that name would be) is guilty of no Misconduct here that I can see.

[bcbbb]

i just read the comic strip and the forum.


i am annoyed with all of you, stop this ludicrous debate. it is pointless. in my opinion both sides of the debate are correct with their arguments. it was justifiable because it was simply the smart thing to do if you were trying to run an operation. it was also morally wrong because, sure, they should have at least tried to disable them, but not kill them, the only problem with that was that they could still scream and catch someone's attention, which would probably kill the entire resistance and everyone they just released from prison.

edit: it was also a great and funny strip at parts, just thought i should mention that.

[Kumo]

If that's the case, the resistance should have been toast for a while now. Locate Object/Person -> Haley's Bow/Haley (Tsukiko is familiar with both, having been shot by Haley more than a few times) plus a couple other divinations and you end up with a leather-clad wight with red hair.

Ah, right. i forgot about the individual person's shield as well. My bad.


Yeah, I'm with Kumosabe on this one, Black, you can't expect to post a 500 pound block of text, and then have people try to swallow the whole thing at once. We aren't hardwired to work like that, it turns into an exchange of broadside monologues, which are absolutely no good to anybody, because you can't stop someone in the middle to address a point before they go on to another one, as happens in actual conversation. When you wax verbose on that scale, you inevitably get quote-wars, because there's just no other feasible way to argue. No Mutants Allowed suffered from a particularly dire case of this for a while, if I recall.
And don't get me wrong, I was arguing with Kumosabe not three or four pages ago about something or another, And s/he (you'll forgive me, I cannot fathom what the gender orientation of that name would be) is guilty of no Misconduct here that I can see.

< -----There's a little icon under my location join date over there. I used to use 'Kumomaru' on forums but i got sick of people asking me if i liked the character in naruto.

Mostly because that character's name was Kidoumaru and the question occured A LOT.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Genocidal monsters assisting other genocidal monsters in mass-goblin-slaughter so they can free more genocidal monsters sounds pretty senseless to me.
please give me a moment to fetch my flint and tinder to set fire to that Straw Man


Killing prisoners of war and civilians is considered murder. It is a war crime. It is murder by modern standards.
these aren't modern times, see above.

It took a couple of hundred years worth of interhuman war in RL to come up with modern standards of what is fair go in a war, you can't expect the same thing to take place when fighting is between species.

[bcbbb]

i am annoyed with all of you, stop this ludicrous debate. it is pointless. in my opinion both sides of the debate are correct with their arguments. it was justifiable because it was simply the smart thing to do if you were trying to run an operation. it was also morally wrong because, sure, they should have at least tried to disable them, but not kill them, the only problem with that was that they could still scream and catch someone's attention, which would probably kill the entire resistance and everyone they just released from prison.

who agrees with me on what i said there?




it was also a great and funny strip at parts, just thought i should mention that.


i was mainly wondering who agreed on quote 1, the second one is one i know that people agree with me on.

[Black]

So basically you're not going to respond to any point i make - good or no - because i quote the points i'm actually responding to?

Most people i've done that to appreciate that i point out where in their post they actually said those things. You don't? Fine.

You are immoral for expecting soldiers to act as if they are not in a war ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

The elves did not enjoy it at all. Find me one place where any of these elves smiled, grinned, laughed, or showed any sign of enjoyment.

They may have not been actively engaged in battle but they were still in a battlefield, in a dangerous area, with risks to all their lives for every single mistake.

Should a soldier with magic have spells at hand such as hold person/monster so as to neutralize civilians that may be a threat to their operation? Not when they don't expect them to show up and frankly i don't think they should even if they do. That's like saying soldiers should have two machine guns, one filled with rubber bullets to use on civilians.

For us, it actually takes more time to kill. For them, murder is how they stay alive and it really does take longer for them not to kill.

Also: it doesn't have to take minutes, or even A minute, of delay. A few seconds is all it really takes for a situation to turn bad, particularly in battle, which this was, don't lie to yourself.

You seem to think these soldiers were not at risk, because the prisoners were being led away. Is this the case? Because it would explain a lot of your arguments.

They are fighting to retake their city, not to take someone else's (i couldn't think of a better way to put it, i know it doesn't make much sense)

Also, Terrorism? It's guerilla warfare. If terrorism was their goal they would have directly assaulted a civilian target, not a prison filled with their own men.

There.

I would hope that I am capable of understanding what my position is well enough to know when someone is talking about it. Thank you for making your post readable. Now if we only can get you to stake out your position more forcefully instead of reacting to others :smallwink:

Soldiers agree with me. There is no soldier out there who thinks its ok to kill civilians. Most soldiers follow the laws of war because they are not evil. Yes, sometimes they make mistakes. This is still evil, but at least not criminal- and they can be forgiven for making mistakes. Some soldiers deliberately commit war crimes. They are criminals. They should also be forgiven if they atone. But they are still criminals.

I will concede that I assumed that the elves enjoyed their joke. I thought it was obvious from context, but strictly speaking I am not entirely justified in claiming this. The humans definitely enjoyed it though, and they're also ***** for it. Especially for being complacent and not reporting the crime to their commanding officer (and it can be inferred that he would disapprove harshly of it).

Back to the point about the soldiers- particularly about the spellcasters. Yes, OF COURSE they should have been prepared to deal with civilians. They are fighting in a city occupied by civilians! How is it not obvious that they should have contingencies for dealing with them? These particular elves simply shirked their responsibility and committed atrocities because they believed it was correct to do so. This does not make it correct. Your analogy does not stand. Analogies don't make an argument. Spellcasters have it fully within their means to use nonlethal spells. Certainly they did not even maintain one or two low level spells for this purpose. There is no evidence that they tried.

I am not saying that they were not at risk. I am saying they were not under duress. There was nothing immediate clouding their judgment. They were not about to die. They were not under extreme stress. In fact, they were sufficiently comfortable enough to have a conversation, saunter down to the edge of a building and kill a POW.

And they also shot civilians in the back.

Every civilized nation's army agrees with me in saying that a soldier who has committed these acts has committed a war crime. If these elves were in a western military, they would be court-marshaled. Convenience does not justify an action. This is the whole point of laws. Don't join the military. You might end up in jail with your attitude.

And certainly it does NOT release you from your moral responsibilities that you are fighting a guerrilla war. You continually bring up conditions and state that they mitigate any crimes soldiers may commit. I, and every military of every civilized, democratic, human rights observant nation, disagree. The UN disagrees. If you were in the military, your CO would disagree. Your squad would disagree. Your platoon would disagree. The entire body that exists to wage war disagrees with you.

There are circumstances that exonerate a soldier of criminality. That does not make any atrocities they commit less morally reprehensible. But it means that they can more easily be forgiven for them if they repent. And they do. No one likes killing innocent people. Although it seems you have no qualms about it if you can rationalize it well enough.

Your rationalization is absurd. It renders morality meaningless. It renders law meaningless. You would sacrifice the rights of the individual for convenience. I will never accept such a position.

As a last point: A folly of slashing up my post like that. I never said that they committed terrorism. I was making a separate point and the context was different. If you considered positions holistically instead of cutting them up into points, you would not have misunderstood. Context is only one of many casualties of your posting style.

Edit P. S.



It took a couple of hundred years worth of interhuman war in RL to come up with modern standards of what is fair go in a war, you can't expect the same thing to take place when fighting is between species.

I made my response to this position earlier, your sarcasm aside.


Yeah, I'm with Kumosabe on this one, Black, you can't expect to post a 500 pound block of text, and then have people try to swallow the whole thing at once. We aren't hardwired to work like that, it turns into an exchange of broadside monologues, which are absolutely no good to anybody, because you can't stop someone in the middle to address a point before they go on to another one, as happens in actual conversation. When you wax verbose on that scale, you inevitably get quote-wars, because there's just no other feasible way to argue. No Mutants Allowed suffered from a particularly dire case of this for a while, if I recall.
And don't get me wrong, I was arguing with Kumosabe not three or four pages ago about something or another, And s/he (you'll forgive me, I cannot fathom what the gender orientation of that name would be) is guilty of no Misconduct here that I can see.

Well, there is a happy median to be find I'm sure. I wouldn't mind my position being split up along paragraph lines, for certain, because I tend to divide disparate ideas by paragraph. I find it absurd, rude, and hard to read when posts are dissected line-by-line and responded to line-by-line. To be honest, I found his response, even without the quotes, hard to read, incoherent, and more intent on responding then enjoying the act of conversation itself.

This is getting off-topic, but I understand that we all have disparate posting styles and certainly mine has been cultivated apart from this forum and may be too idiosyncratic to insist upon, but I only make this point because I believe that everyone will enjoy posting more when it is done less in a bulleted point-by-point rejoinder and more of a discursive style. I only post opinions- some stronger than what I am comfortable accepting! - because it is enjoyable to engage people on opinions.

Reading and writing are pleasurable. Turning posts into quote sushi diminishes the pleasure in both aspects.

[Gift Jeraff]

Interestingly enough, the only reason the resistance has even lasted this long has got to be the cloister effect, since Tsukiko is familiar with Thanh and could scry him easily if she could.

Actually, I don't think Thanh was present when Xykon cast Cloister.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html)

[bcbbb]

as i have said, both sides present completely valid points. i also believe that you people should just let it go. you do not have to make the other change his beliefs. just stick to what you believe and then stop debating it. seriously people.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I LOVED the new comic.
The comic started out pretty awesome (7.5/10 in book 1) than got really awesome (8.5/10 in book 2) than even more awesome (9/10 in book 3) than got just OK (6.5/10 in book 4) but is now making a full recovery. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Black]

as i have said, both sides present completely valid points. i also believe that you people should just let it go. you do not have to make the other change his beliefs. just stick to what you believe and then stop debating it. seriously people.

If you're not having fun, you shouldn't participate :smallbiggrin:

If it is found to be disruptive and against the spirit of the thread, it is a moderators prerogative to... moderate :smallsmile: such conversations. I do not believe anyone in this thread has violated the spirit of discussion.

[DeltaEmil]

Xykon will probably come to repent the way he has been dealing with Redcloak as of late. By threatening the last few straws of self-respect that RC has to grasp at, he is coming dangerously close to forcing the Goblin into rebellion.What kind of ineffective rebellion would that be, if at all? Xykon could slaughter Redcloak, blast all of occupied Azure City and and the lands around it, and force some other monstrous humanoid to serve him or die all in the same day with ease. He's that powerful. Even a million hobgoblins couldn't stop him. They'd need their god for it, and the god's rather interested in a big plan that even the lich sorceror doesn't know about it.

Also, I rather liked RC in this strip (and disliked Tsukiko, not that there is much to like to begin with). He is slowly but surely growing both a spine and a decent moral center.Really? The moment Tsukiko says "Wrongeye", even although she doesn't know why it can shut up Redcloak, he wimpers and does nothing anymore. Stopping Tsukiko from casting Create Undead first was just the same as casting Wall of Blades on her. He never feared or respected her, nor does he really hate her. She's just a human traitor who's into the dead in a icky way. But even she can now simply make Redcloak cower in fear by just reminding him how cruel and monstrous Xykon is.
Redcloak had more backbone when Xykon's body regenerated a piece of finger back then, and was rather chummy with him during the invasion of Azure City. After the loss of the phylactery, Redcloak's become the lowly minion who shuts up and does whatever his undead lich master says again.

[DabblerWizard]

Poor Redcloak. I feel sorry for him.

Woot for Elven insurgents!

[bcbbb]

If you're not having fun, you shouldn't participate :smallbiggrin:

If it is found to be disruptive and against the spirit of the thread, it is a moderators prerogative to... moderate :smallsmile: such conversations. I do not believe anyone in this thread has violated the spirit of discussion.

no i was just saying, neither of you are willing to change, i keep seeing the exact same debate points over and over again, and its now just starting to get pointless black, that is all i am saying. you should probably realize this by now.

[Black]

Oh, but everything fun in life tends to be pointless. :smallfrown:

[bcbbb]

Oh, but everything fun in life tends to be pointless. :smallfrown:

i agree with that, but don't you see how any debate becomes rather silly if you keep bringing the exact same points up over and over again. when that happens, you should probably just stop and move on to something else in your life.

[Black]

I don't know about others, but I certainly have sharpened and retracted parts of my position since I started defending it. And I am also aware of some gaps that no one has brought up yet. Perhaps I will have to patch them up, or perhaps they will remain mysterious. :smallcool:

I am ready to engage on a different topic though. I am more than happy to give someone else the last word. What else shall we discuss about the current page?

[Kumo]

I would hope that I am capable of understanding what my position is well enough to know when someone is talking about it. Thank you for making your post readable. Now if we only can get you to stake out your position more forcefully instead of reacting to others :smallwink:

Soldiers agree with me. There is no soldier out there who thinks its ok to kill civilians. Most soldiers follow the laws of war because they are not evil. Yes, sometimes they make mistakes. This is still evil, but at least not criminal- and they can be forgiven for making mistakes. Some soldiers deliberately commit war crimes. They are criminals. They should also be forgiven if they atone. But they are still criminals.

I will concede that I assumed that the elves enjoyed their joke. I thought it was obvious from context, but strictly speaking I am not entirely justified in claiming this. The humans definitely enjoyed it though, and they're also ***** for it. Especially for being complacent and not reporting the crime to their commanding officer (and it can be inferred that he would disapprove harshly of it).

Back to the point about the soldiers- particularly about the spellcasters. Yes, OF COURSE they should have been prepared to deal with civilians. They are fighting in a city occupied by civilians! How is it not obvious that they should have contingencies for dealing with them? These particular elves simply shirked their responsibility and committed atrocities because they believed it was correct to do so. This does not make it correct. Your analogy does not stand. Analogies don't make an argument. Spellcasters have it fully within their means to use nonlethal spells. Certainly they did not even maintain one or two low level spells for this purpose. There is no evidence that they tried.

I am not saying that they were not at risk. I am saying they were not under duress. There was nothing immediate clouding their judgment. They were not about to die. They were not under extreme stress. In fact, they were sufficiently comfortable enough to have a conversation, saunter down to the edge of a building and kill a POW.

And they also shot civilians in the back.

Every civilized nation's army agrees with me in saying that a soldier who has committed these acts has committed a war crime. If these elves were in a western military, they would be court-marshaled. Convenience does not justify an action. This is the whole point of laws. Don't join the military. You might end up in jail with your attitude.

And certainly it does NOT release you from your moral responsibilities that you are fighting a guerrilla war. You continually bring up conditions and state that they mitigate any crimes soldiers may commit. I, and every military of every civilized, democratic, human rights observant nation, disagree. The UN disagrees. If you were in the military, your CO would disagree. Your squad would disagree. Your platoon would disagree. The entire body that exists to wage war disagrees with you.

There are circumstances that exonerate a soldier of criminality. That does not make any atrocities they commit less morally reprehensible. But it means that they can more easily be forgiven for them if they repent. And they do. No one likes killing innocent people. Although it seems you have no qualms about it if you can rationalize it well enough.

Your rationalization is absurd. It renders morality meaningless. It renders law meaningless. You would sacrifice the rights of the individual for convenience. I will never accept such a position.

As a last point: A folly of slashing up my post like that. I never said that they committed terrorism. I was making a separate point and the context was different. If you considered positions holistically instead of cutting them up into points, you would not have misunderstood. Context is only one of many casualties of your posting style.

Edit P. S.



I made my response to this position earlier, your sarcasm aside.

I'd rather not, thanks.

I never said murdering civilians was a good thing - i said it was necessary and therefore wasn't an evil thing either. You and others keep saying 'conveience' in place of 'necessity', which are pretty much EXACT opposites.

Your entire arguement seems to me to be based around the idea that i think it's ok to kill civilians with rationality ONLY. If they have a valid reason, it's enough for me to look over it, yes. If they have no remorse that it was necessary, then it's the same as killing them for no reason and it's evil. If they have remorse that they killed them because it was neccesary and recognize it was neccesary, then they're probably too soft-hearted to last long on the battlefield. Granted, they're good people, but those people don't last long.

Also, law IS meaningless for the simple reason that anybody with any real power - who are often the target for the law - can circumvent it whenever they choose and get away with it scott-free.

That last point, right there? that's EXACTLY why i modulate posts into their points: so i don't have to go back and highlight the word you claim not to have used.

Because you probably won't read this if i post after it: you did, indeed, say right there that terrorism is what they are doing and that is why it's evil.


I am not condemning them for staying and fighting... so long as they have a realistic and honorable goal to achieve in doing so: terrorism is not one, freeing prisoners and attacking military targets are. But since they are choosing to stay and fight, I hold them culpable for criminal acts they commit.

[LuisDantas]

What kind of ineffective rebellion would that be, if at all? Xykon could slaughter Redcloak, blast all of occupied Azure City and and the lands around it, and force some other monstrous humanoid to serve him or die all in the same day with ease. He's that powerful. Even a million hobgoblins couldn't stop him. They'd need their god for it, and the god's rather interested in a big plan that even the lich sorceror doesn't know about it.

Maybe you are right, but that is not the vibe I get so far. Xykon is a rather poor strategist and has come to rely too much on Redcloak (and, to a lesser degree, Jirix and Tsukiko). At the same time, Gobbotopia literally reveres Redcloak, in a way that is not really transferable to Xykon.

Most of all, Xykon has been continuously testing RC's emotional limits, all the while also counting on his dedicated cooperation. That is a very effective (and classic) recipe for disaster. Redcloak is not a fool, and he will take advantage of the first opening he finds as long as it does not displease the Dark One. There is even a chance that he will not wait so long. He sure has reason aplenty not to.



Really? The moment Tsukiko says "Wrongeye", even although she doesn't know why it can shut up Redcloak, he wimpers and does nothing anymore.

Yes. BIG mistake on Tsukiko and Xykon's part. :smallwink:

Sure, he had to swallow his pride. For now. Again. And that is why he will be implacable when the time for riping comes. His guilty is becoming ever lighter, while is rage keeps building. It will not be a pretty sight when everyone learns his limits.


Stopping Tsukiko from casting Create Undead first was just the same as casting Wall of Blades on her. He never feared or respected her, nor does he really hate her. She's just a human traitor who's into the dead in a icky way. But even she can now simply make Redcloak cower in fear by just reminding him how cruel and monstrous Xykon is.

Again, I do not see such fear, although it is only healthy to BE afraid of two powerful necromancers when all is said and done.

But anyway, RC looked more angry and resignated than fearful.


Redcloak had more backbone when Xykon's body regenerated a piece of finger back then, and was rather chummy with him during the invasion of Azure City.

I disagree. RC changed a lot during the Azure City battle, when he learned to value the Hobgoblins. Before that he seemed more self-confident, sure, but that was more like lack of depth, really.


After the loss of the phylactery, Redcloak's become the lowly minion who shuts up and does whatever his undead lich master says again.

That is surely what Xykon has been demanding from him. But such a role is now quite ill-fitting to Redcloak.

[bcbbb]

I don't know about others, but I certainly have sharpened and retracted parts of my position since I started defending it. And I am also aware of some gaps that no one has brought up yet. Perhaps I will have to patch them up, or perhaps they will remain mysterious. :smallcool:

I am ready to engage on a different topic though. I am more than happy to give someone else the last word. What else shall we discuss about the current page?

i don't know what to discuss,and i was not telling anyone what to do, it was mainly a suggestion. and as i have said, both sides are right for their own reasons. both had valid points, you black, in particular had many points that were good and valid, but at the end, it started getting repetitive. that was all i was really trying to say.
:smile:

[Black]

I'd rather not, thanks.

I never said murdering civilians was a good thing - i said it was necessary and therefore wasn't an evil thing either. You and others keep saying 'conveience' in place of 'necessity', which are pretty much EXACT opposites.

Your entire arguement seems to me to be based around the idea that i think it's ok to kill civilians with rationality ONLY. If they have a valid reason, it's enough for me to look over it, yes. If they have no remorse that it was necessary, then it's the same as killing them for no reason and it's evil. If they have remorse that they killed them because it was neccesary and recognize it was neccesary, then they're probably too soft-hearted to last long on the battlefield. Granted, they're good people, but those people don't last long.

Also, law IS meaningless for the simple reason that anybody with any real power - who are often the target for the law - can circumvent it whenever they choose and get away with it scott-free.

That last point, right there? that's EXACTLY why i modulate posts into their points: so i don't have to go back and highlight the word you claim not to have used.

Because you probably won't read this if i post after it: you did, indeed, say right there that terrorism is what they are doing and that is why it's evil.

I have made my case for it being convenience, not necessity. I will agree to disagree on the finer details.

I will strongly disagree with even necessity justifying evil. Especially when the insurgents choose to fight. They can retreat. But they choose to fight, and so they choose to fight and commit atrocities as well. I do not believe that any legitimate authority would consider their crime necessary. But I cannot prove that. So agree to disagree. That you do not accept any authority as legitimate is for you to deal with.

And the last point:

Uhm, look at the two examples I gave after that. Those perfectly fit the description of what the insurgents just did, minus the killing of a POW and civilians. I was giving examples to establish my position on what is acceptable and unacceptable for a guerrilla force to do. I was defining a new position. That was clear from context. I wasn't even talking to you! I was making a separate point on a separate idea. You conflated two distinct positions I established. Not my fault.


i don't know what to discuss,and i was not telling anyone what to do, it was mainly a suggestion. and as i have said, both sides are right for their own reasons. both had valid points, you black, in particular had many points that were good and valid, but at the end, it started getting repetitive. that was all i was really trying to say.
:smile:

Repetitive until you look hard enough! But then I suppose I shouldn't fault anyone for reading long-winded posts. I try to make them enjoyable to read, but that is not saying anything about my capabilities. Do or do not, there is no try, and all that.

Perhaps we can talk about Redcloak's evolving character and relationships to the others? It will take me a day at least to formulate an opinion, but I will join such a discussion with equal gusto.

At first glance, it seems that Redcloack will eventually betray Xykon. There is no team evil. There is team undead and team goblin.

[bcbbb]

definitely agree with you there about the no team evil thing. really, look. redcloak leads team goblin and tsukio leads team undead, while xycon is at the head of both, they still fight.

[Kumo]

I have made my case for it being convenience, not necessity. I will agree to disagree on the finer details.

I will strongly disagree with even necessity justifying evil. Especially when the insurgents choose to fight. They can retreat. But they choose to fight, and so they choose to fight and commit atrocities as well. I do not believe that any legitimate authority would consider their crime necessary. But I cannot prove that. So agree to disagree. That you do not accept any authority as legitimate is for you to deal with.

And the last point:

Uhm, look at the two examples I gave after that. Those perfectly fit the description of what the insurgents just did, minus the killing of a POW and civilians. I was giving examples to establish my position on what is acceptable and unacceptable for a guerrilla force to do. I was defining a new position. That was clear from context. I wasn't even talking to you! I was making a separate point on a separate idea. You conflated two distinct positions I established. Not my fault.

Ok, fine. You think it was excessive, that's your business and nothing i say can change that.

The last point was my mistake, i'll admit.

[Shale]

I'd just like to point out that we don't even know if the elves knew they were killing civilians. The partygoers we saw in earlier strips were still wearing the generic goblin body armor.

[theangelJean]

Yay comic! I hope the Giant is on a roll!

Also, a bit late to the party with this, but ...


Well, yummy means it tastes good. Take that and make it more childish and you get nummy. So num-num is a really childish way of saying food, something you would only normally say to a baby. As for super-sized Impotence Special "to go", it's making fun of Redcloak's lack of a spine by insulting his masculinity. The super-sized to go part makes it sound like a fast food chain.

I find this interesting. Lately the use of "impotence", as a medical term, has become a cultural euphemism in the English-speaking world, and that's probably part of the joke. (Although it's a weird type of joke for Redcloak to be making on himself.) But I wonder if people still remember that the word impotence originally meant, simply, 'being powerless to do something that you want to do'. That's probably what Redcloak means, even if it is an old-fashioned usage of the word. I also wonder if similar words in other languages have kept the original meaning, and used a different word for the other concept.

If you don't understand the cultural reference ... well even the English Wikipedia definition redirects to the medical term.
Searching en.wikipedia for 'impotence' redirects you to 'Erectile Dysfunction'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impotence)
Warning: The contents of the link may be slightly embarrassing if your boss, your colleagues or your children find you reading it. However I promise they are not obscene or nasty, or otherwise NSFW.

[DeltaEmil]

Maybe you are right, but that is not the vibe I get so far. Xykon is a rather poor strategist and has come to rely too much on Redcloak (and, to a lesser degree, Jirix and Tsukiko). At the same time, Gobbotopia literally reveres Redcloak, in a way that is not really transferable to Xykon.As Xykon has shown, after you've got enough power, you just don't need strategy anymore. Against a flying undead sorceror who can cast meteor swarm, symbol of insanity, energy drain and other spells all day along without having to prepare them, no army stands a chance against him no matter if their master tactician were to be Redcloak or Odysseus.
Also, Xykon just doesn't care about strategy because that's what his underling Redcloak is here for. He doesn't care if all hobgoblins died for accomplishing his goal.

Most of all, Xykon has been continuously testing RC's emotional limits, all the while also counting on his dedicated cooperation. That is a very effective (and classic) recipe for disaster. Redcloak is not a fool, and he will take advantage of the first opening he finds as long as it does not displease the Dark One. There is even a chance that he will not wait so long. He sure has reason aplenty not to.The only trump card Redcloak has is that the secret plan regarding the gates might do away with Xykon permanently. But perhaps Xykon will now hide his phylactery completely away from Redcloak, so that not even this can give him any solitude.
Redcloak needs a high-level arcane caster. Tsukiko might perhaps qualify, but the opposition is composed of mighty epic heroes and another rag-tag band of player characters all bent on stopping his goal. He needs Xykon because Xykon is one of the most powerful spellcasters in the world.


Yes. BIG mistake on Tsukiko and Xykon's part. :smallwink:

Sure, he had to swallow his pride. For now. Again. And that is why he will be implacable when the time for riping comes. His guilty is becoming ever lighter, while is rage keeps building. It will not be a pretty sight when everyone learns his limits.His limit is that although he's a cleric (therefore automatically a clericzilla), he's still much more low-level than Xykon. And where once Xykon and Redcloak were working together, now Redcloak works under Xykon's skeletal claws and is forced to whatever humiliation or cruelty the lich lord enjoys seeing him.
The Dark One doesn't particularly care about Redcloaks's well-being. All that matters is that the bearer of the Crimson Mantle follows the divine plan laid out by him as detailed in Start of Darkness.

Again, I do not see such fear, although it is only healthy to BE afraid of two powerful necromancers when all is said and done.

But anyway, RC looked more angry and resignated than fearful.He's also that. He's powerless against the lich. And now, he's even powerless against a mystic theurge, who's spell-casting ability in either magic category are much lower than his. Also, to add insult to injury, one is his fault, and the other is still a living human. He's been effectively ranked under the necrophiliac chick in the baleful and heartless eyes of Xykon.
It's only a matter of time before even the monster in the darkness is given a higher position amongst Xykon's minions than Redcloak.


I disagree. RC changed a lot during the Azure City battle, when he learned to value the Hobgoblins. Before that he seemed more self-confident, sure, but that was more like lack of depth, really.That's him only stopping being a goblinoid rascist. You will notice how he laughs and even gets praised by Xykon when they arrived at the hobgoblin valley and got control over the many legions there. Back in Dorukan's dungeon, he was a silent and accepting minion who watched the lich throwing one goblin after the other into the evil-repelling gate because he's bored, and zombifying ogre mercenaries who wanted a pay raise.

That is surely what Xykon has been demanding from him. But such a role is now quite ill-fitting to Redcloak.Xykon has also managed to enforce it. Redcloak still walks around with only one eye remaining. Tsukiko even gets a hint how to make Redcloak comply with whatever she wants to do.

[Teleporker]

War is a really horrible thing. It usually starts as plain good versus evil, then people on both sides start doing either things too good for the evil side or too evil for the good side.

Then the line gets blurred from the overall perspective.

The next step in that progression is good guys fighting good guys, bad guys fighting bad guys, and neutral types taking the side of their convenience.

One thing is clear from the last few comics. Justified or not, hate exists on all sides of this conflict. And hate is one hell of a bad adviser. Looks like the IFCC is well on their way of getting away with creating "meaningless conflict".

[sihnfahl]

Soldiers agree with me. There is no soldier out there who thinks its ok to kill civilians.
We have to be careful here as this gets dangerous into RL. Doesn't exactly translate well into this world, IMHO.


Especially for being complacent and not reporting the crime to their commanding officer (and it can be inferred that he would disapprove harshly of it).
Thanh's not their commanding officer. While he's in command of the Azure City Resistance, he's not their CO. They're allies working to the same goal.

[Sijo]

Yeow, there seems to be quite a war of words over this strip. I'll just post my feelings and leave.

I think the killing of the Hobgoblin couple was unnecessary, not because it was not justified (we don't know if it was) but because it was yet MORE of the strip's "humans (or demihumans) being horrible to humanoids!" subtext that we already had last episode and which I'm already sick of. :smallannoyed:

Redcloak made a BIG mistake by allowing his fanaticism over his cause get to the point were he even cares about dead Gobs, especially when it annoys Tsukiko, who has Xykon's ear. On the other hand, Tsukiko also made a mistake by insulting RC (even if she was told to do it); they're now enemies and you can be sure this'll have consequences, it's just a matter of who will betray the other first.

While I still don't find the strip funny, at least the story was advanced significantly (by the two villains' interaction, not by the rebels freeing the prisoners... that may or may not change things.)

[DeltaEmil]

Redcloak has always been enemy with Tsukiko. The first thing he did was to cast wall of blades and then sic his chlorine elemental on her. He's just refrained from killing her because Lord Xykon has accepted her into the ranks. Also, what she says is completely true. Xykon will murder loyal goblinoids to get the fresh bodies needed for creating more powerful undead.

[Turkish Delight]

Three respones to this update:

1) Awesome! We're back to semi-regular updates for the moment.

2) I love it when by accident my thinking links up with an author's thinking. In the last thread, I tried to think of a scenario that might make even those who are defending the elves' actions wince: a goblin child stumbles across the scene of the attack and they unflinchingly shoot him full of arrows to prevent him from raising the alarm. The Giant didn't go that far, leaving it merely as an unarmed and defenseless couple who had that misfortune, but the principle is the same and it is now very obvious the moral dissonance from the last comic was completely intended.

3) I'm going to find it very satisfying when Redcloak finally turns on Xykon once and for all. Though I suspect when it happens it won't go well for him, no matter how much planning and preparation he puts into it.

[Mojique]

Another heavy indignity for Redcloak. For how much longer can he live with the fellowship of the undead?

[Zxo]

One of the best comics in this book so far. Wow. That was... perfect insult & injury. Coming from the newest, least powerful member of Team Evil, a human, mentioning RC's brother, desecrating goblin's corpses. That must have hurt. Good. Redcloak deserves every bit of it, but I doubt if that will make him wake up. It only shows that he is willing to suffer anything for the Plan and even the destruction of Gobbotopia probably wouldn't "help". I think the only thing that could cause Redcloak to betray Xykon would be a discovery that Xykon knows about the Plan and has found a way to change it and use Redcloak again, letting him believe to the last moment that it's him controlling the situation, very much like in the ending of SoD. Maybe MitD will mention to RC the ritual Tsukiko researched, if that was the Gate ritual.

I also hope that Tsukiko will one day be eaten by her beloved "children" craving for mortal flesh.

[Jagos]

Another heavy indignity for Redcloak. For how much longer can he live with the fellowship of the undead?

I just finished God of War III. It's odd but Redcloak really reminds me of Kratos in that they want to have their sins forgiven and yet they can't let go of their own guilt.

It's only when that occurs can they be better people. In RC's case, this may take far longer.

[The_Weirdo]

It's not Cartoon terrorism either, but they just killed an entire prison's guard staff, and freed over a hundred dangerous criminals, eighteen of whom are trained killers who have vanished into some unknown space within or near the city. It's definitely terrorism, but it happened to have a clear objective.


EDIT:


His knowing that they are there changes little. If he could have found the resistance before, he would have. All that's changed now is that the resistance is even more of a threat than it was before, and Redcloak is leaving.

Wait.

They are trying to liberate their city, which was invaded, from people who oppress them (or they'd not be in jail for being human).

And they're terrorists now? They're freedom fighters.

[Jagos]

I'm going to say that this all depends on point of view and leave it at that.

[martinkou]

Wait.

They are trying to liberate their city, which was invaded, from people who oppress them (or they'd not be in jail for being human).

And they're terrorists now? They're freedom fighters.

Agreed. I actually like how Giant is embedding realism instead of the usual naive D&D moral views to OOtS. The elves and humans are fighting a war with the goblins - survival, and thus, winning the war, is the only thing that matters. Shooting the two goblins in the back to minimize probability of being traced, and thus maximizing the probability of prisoners' survival, is exactly the right thing to do.

[KiwiImperator]

Agreed. I actually like how Giant is embedding realism instead of the usual naive D&D moral views to OOtS. The elves and humans are fighting a war with the goblins - survival, and thus, winning the war, is the only thing that matters. Shooting the two goblins in the back to minimize probability of being traced, and thus maximizing the probability of prisoners' survival, is exactly the right thing to do.

Oh I agree, it was very literally an argument of semantics.

[LtNOWIS]

As I said about chucking the Goblin prisoner off a roof, they could have left them alive and knocked out rather than dead. May have been easier but I wouldn't call killing civilians that wandered into a scene where the remains would identify them anyway necessary.
They weren't necessarily civilians. That assumption is totally unfounded. It could have been two soldiers who were romantically involved.

[Enlong]

Man. Reminding Redcloak of Right-Eye, and in this particular situation (him refusing to have goblins Animated)... I think those who've read SoD know what this means to Redcloak.