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View Full Version : the most lucrative way to be evil



taltamir
2010-03-22, 04:27 PM
so, I am curious about some of the experiences people had in the "deep end of the alignment pool" as belkar would say... how evil did you get while playing?
trafficking with demons? blackmail dirt farmers into selling their souls? slavery?
Which classic "evil" is the most lucrative in DnD terms? The best I can come up with is the above mentioned... as long as the demons give me good prices for dirt farmer souls...

And how did it impact the game? did you manage to have a good fun game or did the party break apart due to infighting?

Temotei
2010-03-22, 04:34 PM
Wish! :smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2010-03-22, 04:37 PM
Fear, Surprise, Ruthless efficiancy...

and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope!

JaronK
2010-03-22, 04:48 PM
Find someone with a Wisdom of 15 or 19 and a high Charisma (such as a Favored Soul). Turn them into a Necropolitan (or kill them and make them a bone creature), spell stitch them with extract gift and a bunch of other useful spells, then Planar Bind demons and use them to buff you and your party with Extract Gift. Free extra skill ranks and enhancement bonuses to stats! Then kill the demons afterwords. No sense leaving them around to mess with me.

JaronK

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-22, 04:51 PM
Steal from the gods themselves and draw power from the fires of hell as you bind ancient beings of great power to your will.

Warlock/Binder/Ur Priest/Eldritch Disciple/Hellfire Warlock. :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2010-03-22, 04:55 PM
Fear, Surprise, Ruthless efficiancy...

and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope!

I don't get it.


Wish! :smallbiggrin:

huh?

Brendan
2010-03-22, 05:02 PM
I don't get it.



huh?

monty python. spanish inquisition sketch.

please read. (http://xkcd.com/16/)

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-22, 05:05 PM
The most profitable way to be Evil is to do as much good as possible. You will be showered in Gold, freedom, status, etc, and still get to strangle people using their own intestines once in a while.

and when you do, people will thank you for it. The Idiots.

Temotei
2010-03-22, 05:17 PM
I don't get it.



huh?

Oh, come on. Wish yourself into the position of best evil.

Alternatively, glibness or diplomancy.

mostlyharmful
2010-03-22, 05:26 PM
I don't get it.

Don't make me get the comfy chair!

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 05:35 PM
Join an adventuring party of LG individuals, be helpful, gracious and never, ever stab them in the back, while eliminating as many of your evil counterparts as possible. Acquire wealth, demonstrate that you are "good" by only committing your heinous evils to other heinous evils, and acquire a power base that lets you rule the world from the shadows to your own ends. And when everything is all in place... Keep being kind and gracious to your LG hosts. Once you're at the top of things from behind the scenes, you'll want your LG buddies who are a nigh unstoppable group of evil killing machines on your side

Why do this with LG individuals? So long as you don't point yourself to innocent individuals, and never betray their trust, they will never betray you.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-22, 05:38 PM
The most profitable way to be Evil is to do as much good as possible. You will be showered in Gold, freedom, status, etc, and still get to strangle people using their own intestines once in a while.

and when you do, people will thank you for it. The Idiots.

Amateurs. The most lucrative to be evil is to be a psychotic halfling rogue who turns the rest of the party evil and randomly kills other party members to get their wealth by level, although with destroying local governments, since they've already done the hard work of collecting the gold into one big room for you. Additionally, you can take out contracts on the side from mindflayers, dragons, demons, and 75% of all other published monsters.*

*This happened in the first campaign I DMed. A good cleric survived the initial party schism and we played a good/evil split campaign for a while.

Loxagn
2010-03-22, 05:42 PM
The most lucrative way to be evil?

Necromancer Sorcerer.

Overtake a kingdom and start improving the lives of the people, all the while using magic at your disposal to turn the dead into a mountain of animate corpses, bound to your will. Annex lands, expand, until you have an entire nation under your banner. All the while, you tax the people, not enough to cause any sort of unrest, but enough to make certain that you personally are living like a god.

And when the paladins come, explain that killing you would put nations into unrest, cause your nation's infrastructure to crumble, and leave thousands of innocents helpless.
(keep some resurrections handy, just in case).

'S how I'd do it anyway.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-22, 05:47 PM
Overtake a kingdom and start improving the lives of the people, all the while using magic at your disposal to turn the dead into a mountain of animate corpses, bound to your will. Annex lands, expand, until you have an entire nation under your banner. All the while, you tax the people, not enough to cause any sort of unrest, but enough to make certain that you personally are living like a god.

Not a bad idea, but why bother improving one area when D&D cosmology dictates that there are an infinite number of Material Planes? Once you've found some way to move from plane to plane, you can loot at will and retreat to an alternate plane whenever local law-enforcement officials get too close. Oh, and then use the money to buy stuff in Sigil (where, unfortunately, you'll have to behave, unless you have a way around saveless death from the Lady of Pain).

Nero24200
2010-03-22, 05:50 PM
If I plan on playing an evil PC, I go for "evil as I can be without being disruptive". Contrary to popular beleif, playing an evil PC and annoying the party do not go hand-in-hand. In fact, it wasn't long ago that I was involved in an evil-heavy party.

We had an neutral Hexblade, evil Dread Necromancer, neutral barbarain (sister to the Dread, thus giving us a bit of leeway with regards to what she might object to) and my evil assassin. Though neutral, both the hexblade and the barbarian leaned quite heavily to evil (in fact, I beleive the hexblade might have started off evil and slowly changed, though can't remember).

Anyway, the closest we had to inter-party conflict was the assassin and dread necromancer. However, that in itself wasn't a problem. Both myself and the necromancer player had discussed the characters beforehand, and even found a way to make sure they can't find.

The campaign setting deals alot in devil contracts and the like, and so we avoided conflict by having the necromancer trick the assassin into thinking he has a contract involving his soul. Both of us agreed to the idea (and it wasn't a stretch for the assassin to beleive it either), and I trusted the player not to take advantage of the fact that he could essientially order my PC around (in fact, later on he said he was "voiding" the contract, yet my PC had developed enough respect to remain with him until their task was finished).

Anyway, the point is, any evil can work, as long as the player's put the effort in. Remember that evil isn't simply an excuse to kill, murder and backstab. Personality determines whether or not you kill, murder and backstab, evil is just the label put on if you do it alot and for the wrong reasons. Nothing forces the evil PC to turn on the party first chance.

If you doubt certain PC's might not work well together, either think of a new idea or talk to the other players. If you're lucky and have a decent group, you may find a way to have the character work with the group with a little compromise.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 05:55 PM
The most profitable way to be Evil is to do as much good as possible. You will be showered in Gold, freedom, status, etc, and still get to strangle people using their own intestines once in a while.

and when you do, people will thank you for it. The Idiots.


Join an adventuring party of LG individuals, be helpful, gracious and never, ever stab them in the back, while eliminating as many of your evil counterparts as possible. Acquire wealth, demonstrate that you are "good" by only committing your heinous evils to other heinous evils, and acquire a power base that lets you rule the world from the shadows to your own ends. And when everything is all in place... Keep being kind and gracious to your LG hosts. Once you're at the top of things from behind the scenes, you'll want your LG buddies who are a nigh unstoppable group of evil killing machines on your side

Why do this with LG individuals? So long as you don't point yourself to innocent individuals, and never betray their trust, they will never betray you.

those are rather safe ways of being selfish/psychopath... but neither of those is as lucrative as possible... unless the "good guys" win by default in your game world.
It requires that you sacrifice, that you risk your life, etc...

certainly you should PRETEND to be as good as possible... but taking credit for other's deeds (after disposing of them) and secretly doing evil things could greatly advance your powers at a lesser risk than fighting the biggest meanest evil things.

plus you get to actually do "fun" things on occasion.

but yes, anyone who is evil but not chaotic stupid should pretend to be as good as possible.

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 06:02 PM
those are rather safe ways of being selfish/psychopath... but neither of those is as lucrative as possible... unless the "good guys" win by default in your game world.
It requires that you sacrifice, that you risk your life, etc...

certainly you should PRETEND to be as good as possible... but taking credit for other's deeds (after disposing of them) and secretly doing evil things could greatly advance your powers at a lesser risk than fighting the biggest meanest evil things.

plus you get to actually do "fun" things on occasion.

but yes, anyone who is evil but not chaotic stupid should pretend to be as good as possible.

Having LG adventurers stand in front of you is by far the safest legitimate way to quickly earn EXP. Doing those dishonest things etc will lead to your downfall later, as who will you trust to cover your back when things truly come down to it?

Having done this method, it got me nearly limitless political power in the setting my character resides in, and I'm unassailable from the good guys, and have command over the bad. Should my misdeeds ever be revealed in campaign, I may be viewed by the good guys as an extremist, but I would still be kept on their side.

The reason the good guys won, is because I took efforts to make sure they did. The same would have to be done if I chose to back the evil side in evil's favour. The reason good is preferable to evil, is that in the end, good is more trustworthy.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:09 PM
actually, let me give you some examples from CRPG...
in CRPG being "Evil" is retarded, it requires that you selflessly sacrifice wealth and power and risk your life in order to harm people out of spite.
the best example is in arcanum. You get asked to find a wedding ring by some guy who offers a bunch of money for it, if you find the ring and take it to a merchant he offers you a tiny fraction of the amount its owner offered... your options are:
1. return the ring for the money (several times its market value)... gain +2 good points.
2. murder him. (evil points, gain nothing).

being "evil" requires selfless sacrifice for the "cause" of evil..

I found the greatest benefits come when you can attack anyone.

Examples:
1. in fable, you can get people to "follow" you into the woods and murder them away from everyone. then their house is available for sale.
2. in temple of elemental evil you can recruit party members, take them to a secluded spot, kick them out of the party, and then murder them for the XP And loot.

#2 is especially important because if you play your cards right, everyone thinks you are a hero...
"where is elmo... the man at arms; son of the captain of the guard, with the magical sword who went with you to clear the moathouse?"
"its a tragedy, he did not survive"
(actually they never ask)... of course, if you are dumb enough to murder him in TOWN then the whole town goes hostile...

but you see my point now? a betrayal at the right moment and you can have the WBL of several people all at once. AND claim credit for killing the evil you set out to destroy together.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:11 PM
The reason the good guys won, is because I took efforts to make sure they did. The same would have to be done if I chose to back the evil side in evil's favour. The reason good is preferable to evil, is that in the end, good is more trustworthy.

you mean more predictable :P
and if my misdeeds are exposed, DENY DENY DENY!
Who are you going to believe, the peasant woman who is obviously in league with the forces of darkness (by trying to drive a wedge between us), or me the "paragon of virtue" (try to say that without snickering).

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 06:15 PM
That is a very shortsighted way of trying things out though. The most precious commodity in D&D is trustworthy and powerful companions, not material wealth like a house, or some dude's loot.

So yes, the betrayal does give you something right then and there, though you do disclude that there is a risk in any P&P RPG, as the world isn't as simple or predictable as a video game world. However, the benefits of not betraying individuals can in the long run, pay greater dividends. For instance, in a P&P game, sure, you betray and loot the NPC paladin for his gear, but there won't be a new one to replace him. You now are above WBL personally. The alternative is, you keep him on your team. Your team as a whole has the same amount of wealth, but you also have an ally.

See here? To an evil person, an ally is a commodity. By betraying them and killing them off, you're tossing "money" down the drain. The cash he has on him is still power to you, it's just attached to another source of your own power.

Of course, I may simply be too used to playing batman wizards focused on enchantments. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:18 PM
I understand where you are coming from. I am just saying that there are countless individuals and you can only form lasting bonds with a few of them...
Forming a core party with several trustworthy individuals and you can then betray the occasional high level stranger for his loot and XP from killing him.
plus, lots of short term gain can eventually mean ascension, since power increases exponentially.

the biggest issue is dealing with gods, divinations, etc.

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 06:18 PM
you mean more predictable :P
and if my misdeeds are exposed, DENY DENY DENY!
Who are you going to believe, the peasant woman who is obviously in league with the forces of darkness (by trying to drive a wedge between us), or me the "paragon of virtue" (try to say that without snickering).

In my case, I was caught several times, and admitted directly to what I had done.

"You tortured and brutally murdered all of those people? Why?"
"They were slave traders. I would have bartered for the lives of the slaves, but had I done so, he would simply have used the money to attain more. I would try to reform them, but then they would not face severe enough penitance. Only through death can they be cleansed."

Extremist, but they still considered me on their side. After all, they would never find me killing an innocent person, simply because doing so would serve no purpose.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:21 PM
killing slave traders isn't a misdeed, its sanity.
had you let them go, they would just get more slaves and the lives of their future victims are on their hands. In fact, it would be evil to show them mercy. Yes, mercy is one of the greatest forms of evil. (good intentions, road to hell, etc)

I was thinking more along the lines of a poor peasant girl accusing you of kidnapping her daughter to perform a virgin sacrifice to summon a demon. which you can't exactly admit to a paladin and come out as an "extremist". So you deny the heck out of it and claim that she has been bewitched to lie about you. someone MUST have altered her memory or used a spell to assume your appearance to discredit you.

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 06:31 PM
killing slave traders isn't a misdeed, its sanity.
had you let them go, they would just get more slaves and the lives of their future victims are on their hands. In fact, it would be evil to show them mercy. Yes, mercy is one of the greatest forms of evil. (good intentions, road to hell, etc)

I was thinking more along the lines of a poor peasant girl accusing you of kidnapping her daughter to perform a virgin sacrifice to summon a demon. which you can't exactly admit to a paladin and come out as an "extremist". So you deny the heck out of it and claim that she has been bewitched to lie about you. someone MUST have altered her memory or used a spell to assume your appearance to discredit you.

What benefit do I get from doing that non-sense? :smallconfused: As a wizard level 15, I was more of a menace to the world at large than any summoned outsider could be.

See, the key evil was torture, through which I didn't simply kill the other evils. The underground at large was held largely hostage by me, and as such, used through rule of fear to defeat random monsters etc. to retrieve treasures for me, or to help me defeat potential threats to my own power base. Not only does rule through fear of the evils help you supress the evils, it also lets you move them towards your own means. And such, when it has visible good results, through obviously evil means, the good are less enthusiastic about taking action against you, though they may.

Edit: Any perfect evil will gain from a cost benefit analysis. Overt evils of any sort will bring more enemies rattling sabres on your doorstep than you alone could ever defeat. Evil which is only debateably evil is the sort that you can defend, to prevent people from rallying against you.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:36 PM
What benefit do I get from doing that non-sense? As a wizard level 15, I was more of a menace to the world at large than any summoned outsider could be.
A wizard level 15 has no benefit to doing that (aside from the XP)... but you don't START as a wizard 15... at lower level there is benefit.
It also helps if you have an entire evil party working together and on the same page.

as for torture... make an excuse... maybe you had to get information about their previous sales and partners to save more innocent victims from horrible fate. thus making it justifiable.

Masaioh
2010-03-22, 06:39 PM
The most evil thing I've done in DnD is raping someone, murdering them in a ritual and sealing their soul away for Graz'zt. Also, knowingly spreading a deific STD that dealt fire damage. Yes, fire damage.

In return, Graz'zt he gave every member of my party a temporary super-mode when we got TPK'd in a Goblin fortress. That fortress has since melted.

The most lucrative thing would probably be self-prostitution.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 06:41 PM
The most lucrative thing would probably be self-prostitution.

prostitution is evil?

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 06:50 PM
A wizard level 15 has no benefit to doing that (aside from the XP)... but you don't START as a wizard 15... at lower level there is benefit.
It also helps if you have an entire evil party working together and on the same page.

Even as a lower level wizard, I would be more menacing than any creature I could have called. We did do an elaborate ritual, and the only sacrafice we needed were plants, but I had stated that my character, being a 9 year old female had stated that if a virgin female were required, I would do. I offered that because I could trust an LG party to bring me back.


as for torture... make an excuse... maybe you had to get information about their previous sales and partners to save more innocent victims from horrible fate. thus making it justifiable.

With things like speak with dead, you can't often make such claims. In settings without you could, but in this instance, I could not make such claims, nor could I rely on an ability to lie about my motives, due to the bluff/sense motive mechanics, and due to the way magic works.

So yes, that's a viable reason in some systems, but my example was D&D 3.5.

D&D 3.5 is also the system where you will invariably be caught, pretty much for the same reasons.

Soonerdj
2010-03-22, 07:39 PM
My group decided on forming a criminal organization focusing on the stealing, selling, making of illegal magic items. Its been a joy to watch them grow from sticking up magic shops at knife point to blowing up storehouses of their competition with fireballs :P

taltamir
2010-03-22, 07:41 PM
My group decided on forming a criminal organization focusing on the stealing, selling, making of illegal magic items. Its been a joy to watch them grow from sticking up magic shops at knife point to blowing up storehouses of their competition with fireballs :P

sounds awesome... what level are they now?
did they have it harder or easier compared to killing lichs, dragons, and demons?

taltamir
2010-03-22, 07:50 PM
Why do this with LG individuals? So long as you don't point yourself to innocent individuals, and never betray their trust, they will never betray you.

thats a big "as long as"... you show the slightest tendency to be less then moral and they turn on you. And if given the choice between your life and a bus full of orphans they will choose the orphans.

You can have "evil" family who is much more loyal... they will bring you back to life and protect you because they love you. Yes, evil people can love (especially family)...

Example party:
James Drakesbane, Wiard, married hilde.
Hilde Drakesbane, cleric of bane.
Throm - Barbarian, their oldest child
Garth - Wizard, third child.
Tamera - Rogue, fourth child

Hermes (third child) left the party... he got married himself and adventures with his own family. Of course he would raise dear old ma and pa (and siblings) should they meet an untimely death.

They all know its "us vs the world"... a nice loving evil family...
of course, there might be some evil uncles and cousins... and certainly sometimes they are not as loyal to each other. Loyalty depends on how "close" you are... but an evil sibling is more dependable for loyalty then a paladin who would turn on you the first time you do something evil, or sacrifice (figuratively) your life for the "greater good".

offered a bunch of power to betray their family? why should they? they could always acquire said power other ways... heck, the absolute "worst" that can happen is daddy loses his spellbook (replaceable) or mommy gets her powers sealed by her god (chose a new god, pay for a casting of atonement... remember, a clerics power are their own and even their god cannot take them away)

PS. this is actually my favorite justification for having an evil party... they betray everyone but family; and the party is all family

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 08:11 PM
I read too much about middle era politics and the familial backstabbing over power to ever really like that sort of thing. Plus my middle name is Kane.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 08:15 PM
it certainly depends on the family... but remember, this is DnD world not IRL...
As you said, a lot of my notions don't apply in DnD world due to gods and speak with dead and so on and so forth.
but likewise reasons for nobles to murder family members don't apply in DnD... since power is entirely internal... XP based that is. Each high level individual is a person of mass destruction.

Its better to have daddy on your side, one of the few level 20 wizards in the world, then to be king of a kingdom which is short one level 20 wizard.

Noedig
2010-03-22, 08:20 PM
Most evil thing I've ever done was start a war in a roundabout manner. Then I set up contractual agreements with both sides to heal any soldiers (I was a cleric) that were brought to my little hut. If they wanted to pay extra I'd go out to the field after battle and heal people. I charged based on the level of damage and the importance of the individual, so my rates were variable. I also sold potions. I made about 200k over the course of the war, which lasted for four months.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 08:22 PM
Most evil thing I've ever done was start a war in a roundabout manner. Then I set up contractual agreements with both sides to heal any soldiers (I was a cleric) that were brought to my little hut. If they wanted to pay extra I'd go out to the field after battle and heal people. I charged based on the level of damage and the importance of the individual, so my rates were variable. I also sold potions. I made about 200k over the course of the war, which lasted for four months.

you win this thread...
this is exactly what I had in mind when I asked (an example of an extremely lucrative evil act)... bonus point for being the "good healer" who "saved lives" on the battlefield :P

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 08:41 PM
it certainly depends on the family... but remember, this is DnD world not IRL...
As you said, a lot of my notions don't apply in DnD world due to gods and speak with dead and so on and so forth.
but likewise reasons for nobles to murder family members don't apply in DnD... since power is entirely internal... XP based that is. Each high level individual is a person of mass destruction.

Its better to have daddy on your side, one of the few level 20 wizards in the world, then to be king of a kingdom which is short one level 20 wizard.

Yeah, but my DM won't let me play the son of a level 20 wizard who's willing to help me out, so I have to stick with what the party is, be it family or random adventurers. I've never made my evil characters related to another group of the party though.

taltamir
2010-03-22, 10:11 PM
Yeah, but my DM won't let me play the son of a level 20 wizard who's willing to help me out, so I have to stick with what the party is, be it family or random adventurers. I've never made my evil characters related to another group of the party though.

Me neither :(... not outside of CRPG that is... we just stick together due to metagame...

I really want to try a game where we ARE all related. that would be really interesting.

Hawriel
2010-03-22, 10:18 PM
so, I am curious about some of the experiences people had in the "deep end of the alignment pool" as belkar would say... how evil did you get while playing?
trafficking with demons? blackmail dirt farmers into selling their souls? slavery?
Which classic "evil" is the most lucrative in DnD terms? The best I can come up with is the above mentioned... as long as the demons give me good prices for dirt farmer souls...

And how did it impact the game? did you manage to have a good fun game or did the party break apart due to infighting?

I wanted to make a character who was a lawyer.

Yukitsu
2010-03-22, 10:20 PM
Me neither :(... not outside of CRPG that is... we just stick together due to metagame...

I really want to try a game where we ARE all related. that would be really interesting.

I'm playing one where another player and I are brother and sister. The rest of the party are unrelated, but yes, the infighting that never leads to lethal violence is a blast.

Loxagn
2010-03-23, 12:30 PM
Not a bad idea, but why bother improving one area when D&D cosmology dictates that there are an infinite number of Material Planes? Once you've found some way to move from plane to plane, you can loot at will and retreat to an alternate plane whenever local law-enforcement officials get too close. Oh, and then use the money to buy stuff in Sigil (where, unfortunately, you'll have to behave, unless you have a way around saveless death from the Lady of Pain).

Expanding an empire to multiple planes does seem like a wonderful idea. I just love the thought of screwing with the good guys' heads.

taltamir
2010-03-23, 01:22 PM
i thought there was only one prime material plane and infinite demiplanes.