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View Full Version : Crusader and Warblade slight modifications



Cicciograna
2010-03-22, 04:28 PM
1) Would it be unbalancing if I gave the Crusader a mount as per the Paladin mount class feature (given that I'm going to substitute the Pally with the Crus)?

2) Would it be unbalancing if I gave the Warblade the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat (given that I'm going to substitute the Fighter with the Warb)?

Frosty
2010-03-22, 04:32 PM
1) It's no stronger than someone taking Leadership to get a mount, so it'd be like giving Crusaders an extra feat I guess.

2) Nope. Who uses heavy armor anyways? Mithril Fullplate is where it's at and it counts as medium armor.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-22, 04:35 PM
Question - Why do you want to give the crusader a mount? Do your players really want a special mount as a paladin? Do you view a mount as an intrinsic part of paladin flavor? If you do, you should remove something else the crusader has, as the mount can be fairly powerful if selected well.

I have no problem w/ heavy armor for warblade, but I also think you should switch up the warblade and crusader HD. Crusader is meant to be more defensive, why does it have d10's?

Optimystik
2010-03-22, 04:37 PM
I would let them take a feat to get a mount, rather like a psion would need a feat for a psicrystal. The benefits are strong enough that it would be worthwhile.

JaronK
2010-03-22, 04:40 PM
As a note, the Stone Dragon maneuvers can't be used while mounted. But that's not a huge thing.

JaronK

Cicciograna
2010-03-22, 04:44 PM
I thought it would be nice for the Crusader to have a special mount: I tend to see him as the lone knight (or the army commander), and the image of a proud Crusader riding a white stallion against a horde of devils is of my liking, that's all.

Though I understand that Paladin mount is one of the few good things the Pally has, so I could:

1) substitute Mettle with the Mount (and maybe shifting the feature to some levels before Mettle). This would change radically the Crusader, as I believe that the first class feature completely overshadows the latter;

2) allow him to choose a Feat just to have the Mount. As I don't really like Leadership (just personal taste, but I think that important links between cohorts and PC should be forged in-game) I could limit it to the mere selection of a Mount, and restricting it to Crusader (and maybe Warblade).

Brendan
2010-03-22, 04:59 PM
As a note, the Stone Dragon maneuvers can't be used while mounted. But that's not a huge thing.

JaronK

you could have a small mount like a riding dog and wear rollerblades. you could keep your feet on the ground and just roll around.

FinalJustice
2010-03-22, 05:13 PM
Or homebrew a feat that allows the usage of Stone Dragon maneuvers while mounted (cool), or while mounted and if the mount itself is on the ground (terrible). The first one could actually somewhat fix Stone Dragon, as the whole 'on the ground' clause is really annoying, so it'd be worth as a feat. The second idea reeks of feat tax, and that's really bad.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-22, 05:33 PM
I have no problem w/ heavy armor for warblade, but I also think you should switch up the warblade and crusader HD. Crusader is meant to be more defensive, why does it have d10's?


Look at the Barbarian. Now look at the Paladin. Now look at the Barbarian again.

See anything similar?

WoTC has been giving out d10s for heavy armor tanks and d12s for light/medium armor meat shields since the Player's Handbook. Also d10 is the normal tank hp die, d12s are only given out very rarely to classes that will be working as meat shields.

~~~~

Crusader should have access to the paladin mount via a feat. I think that's a great idea (especially because I won't let my players play paladins).

If a Warblade really wants heavy armor proficiency he can spend a feat or multiclass. Most warblades multiclass between level 4 and 5 anyway.

Both the warblade and crusader lack any real feat taxes to be effective characters so don't worry about leaving extra options like those up to feats.

(The Swordsage on the other hand almost always ends up taking three out of four of Two-Weapon Fighting, Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade.)

Gametime
2010-03-22, 05:34 PM
Or homebrew a feat that allows the usage of Stone Dragon maneuvers while mounted (cool), or while mounted and if the mount itself is on the ground (terrible). The first one could actually somewhat fix Stone Dragon, as the whole 'on the ground' clause is really annoying, so it'd be worth as a feat. The second idea reeks of feat tax, and that's really bad.

Or just allow Stone Dragon maneuvers to be used even if you aren't touching the ground.

Really, Stone Dragon isn't so powerful that it needs a restriction none of the other disciplines have to deal with.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-22, 10:09 PM
Look at the Barbarian. Now look at the Paladin. Now look at the Barbarian again.

See anything similar?

WoTC has been giving out d10s for heavy armor tanks and d12s for light/medium armor meat shields since the Player's Handbook. Also d10 is the normal tank hp die, d12s are only given out very rarely to classes that will be working as meat shields.

So wait, the Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) on the PHB II is a light/medium armor meat shield? I distinctively see a note that says "all armor (heavy, medium and light)". Are my eyes deceiving me?

Note that there are only three d12 classes around: Barbarian, Knight and Warblade. Barbarian is not more of a meat shield than a light-armored damage dealer/meat shield (since Rage isn't just mere Constitution), Warblade isn't exactly a meat shield (more like "I do everything Fighter does...better and flashier!!") and the Knight almost redefined what it is to be a tank, until the Crusader shoved it to the side and with a single stance showed what it is to be a tank.

If the Knight, who was meant to be the impassable barrier, has d12 hit dice and the Crusader doesn't, it's for a reason. Whichever reason that is, I cannot understand; you can't say it is to compensate for the Knight because of the Warblade, you can't say it's because Barb and Warblade use less than heavy armor because the Knight wears heavy armor. In fact, I'd say that, for those people who still admire the Paladin and the very heavily armored people, give the Paladin a d12 and make it (a bit) happy. The ol' warrior of light deserves it, even if the Crusader tries to steal the spotlight.

As for the mount...there's Cavalier. Take it, love it. It's a class designed to go for special mount; giving it as a feat means that the supposedly-best feature of the Paladin worths no less than a feat; that is horribly insulting to a class that had to hold the stigma of earlier editions. I believe that taking something that's pretty strong (the mount) and exchange it for the actual key feature of the Crusader (the maneuvers) is a worthwhile change; otherwise, give it the mount but take both Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike. Replacing Mettle for a mount is no less and no more than a joke.

JaxGaret
2010-03-22, 10:16 PM
you could have a small mount like a riding dog and wear rollerblades. you could keep your feet on the ground and just roll around.

Genius.


As to classes and hit dice - IMO all classes should have either d4, d8, or d12 hit dice. Give all the meatshields d12s, give all the full casters d4s, and give everyone in between d8s.

Simple and effective.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-22, 10:22 PM
Genius.


As to classes and hit dice - IMO all classes should have either d4, d8, or d12 hit dice. Give all the meatshields d12s, give all the full casters d4s, and give everyone in between d8s.

Simple and effective.

Naw, I like the d10. I actually think it's the perfect for the warblade, who is more of an offensive melee type, and wears medium armor. I know that WoTC set a precedent in the PHB, but it was a stupid precedent. One of the crusader's big class features is that getting hurt actually helps them, it just makes sense! d6 is kind of odd though. I still think it has a place with the hardier casters that are not straight up gishes.

Draz74
2010-03-23, 02:28 AM
If the Knight, who was meant to be the impassable barrier, has d12 hit dice and the Crusader doesn't, it's for a reason. Whichever reason that is, I cannot understand; you can't say it is to compensate for the Knight because of the Warblade, you can't say it's because Barb and Warblade use less than heavy armor because the Knight wears heavy armor.

It's because the Crusader gets frickin' boatloads of Temporary Hit Points anyway, so he doesn't need the d12 Hit Die thing. :smalltongue:

Grumman
2010-03-23, 02:40 AM
It's because the Crusader gets frickin' boatloads of Temporary Hit Points anyway, so he doesn't need the d12 Hit Die thing. :smalltongue:
No, it's that he gets boatloads of permanent hit points. As in your attack routine looks something like "Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal, Cure Moderate Wounds", repeated until your enemies die of old age.

Draz74
2010-03-23, 02:43 AM
No, it's that he gets boatloads of permanent hit points. As in your attack routine looks something like "Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal, Cure Moderate Wounds", repeated until your enemies die of old age.

That too.

(My argument made an assumption that it shouldn't have: the Stone Power feat. It just synergizes so amazingly with the delayed damage pool ...)

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-23, 03:19 AM
If the Crusader has already a boatload of HP to soak damage (through Devoted Spirit maneuvers), and can get more by reducing BAB to replace for temporary hit points, then having a d12 is almost icing on the cake. Given the need for Charisma (they do have the equivalent of Divine Grace for Will saves IIRC), they can't get Constitution as high as they could; however, if they can basically rise up their Constitution, get d12 hit dice, and keep their routine (strikes + Martial Spirit/Aura of Triumph if good), you essentially make the Crusader almost invulnerable, which as I can see is one of the paths you can take with the class.

While it makes sense to retain its d10 hit dice, it makes just as much sense to give it d12 hit dice. So it's no biggie of a change in comparison with, for example, a Paladin (who would adore the d12 hit dice because their Con will predictably be low) or a Duskblade (which uses medium armor but has enough firepower to justify having d10 HD) or a Ranger (which is more of a sneaky fighter and wouldn't mind the d8 it already has).