PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 Goliath rogue build question



danzibr
2010-03-22, 06:53 PM
Hello all,

This is my first post.

Anyways, so I'm about to start a 3.5 campaign at level 7 as some sort of Goliath rogue. All books are available. Initially I was thinking of being some sort of fighter rogue. Specifically, a hybrid of Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter, Uncanny Trickster, Invisible Blade and Nightsong Enforcer (in that order). I planned on getting a Glove of Storing with a greatsword inside, then covering my body with daggers. I'd take Brutal Throw and chuck daggers when appropriate, using my greatsword at other times.

However, it turns out the other people that are playing are being a Dwarf Frenzied Berserker and Paladin (they're a married couple). Then my person is going to be a Goliath Paladin. Basically, we have plenty of muscle and no arcane casters (or psions or really... healers), so I'm thinking of changing my build. That is, I may not need any Fighter or Barbarian at all, and lean more toward some sort of caster.

Rogue/Cleric looks interesting but I don't really want to pump my wisdom up. Or charisma. Any thoughts on this? Or build suggestions?

Rogue/Wizard also looks interesting, but I don't want to dual wield so Daggerspell Mage (sorry if I got the name wrong) is probably not going to work. Still... any thoughts/builds?

Rogue/Psion looks the most promising. Specifically, Psychic Rogue. I hear they are better than Lurks. Any thoughts/builds?

And lastly, could any of these work with getting some sort of super mobile character? I like the thought of teleporting around and stabbing people with greatswords.

Thanks.

Dan

holywhippet
2010-03-22, 07:03 PM
If you want mobility, try a cleric with the travel domain. Being a cleric means you'll have access to stat boosting spells - so mediocre strength won't be a problem.

Pure cleric is fine, if you go for a rogue/cleric I'd only grab a single level.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-22, 07:12 PM
If you want rogue/wiz go an unseen seer (Complete Mage)

you only need one level to qualify, and wizard get all the good teleport spells IIRC there is a spell that let you teleport as a move action and a greater version that let you teleport as a swift action.

eitherway if you go unseen seer, grab practiced spellcaster to off-set the CL from Unseen seer ( a +4 to all your divinations spells at the cost of a -4 to all other spells)

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 07:14 PM
If you want rogue/wiz go an unseen seer (Complete Mage)

you only need one level to qualify, and wizard get all the good teleport spells IIRC there is a spell that let you teleport as a move action and a greater version that let you teleport as a swift action.

eitherway if you go unseen seer, grab practiced spellcaster to off-set the CL from Unseen seer ( a +4 to all your divinations spells at the cost of a -4 to all other spells)

Only +3/-3. Practiced Spellcaster conveniently covers the first level of Rogue too, giving you full Caster Level.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-22, 07:17 PM
Only +3/-3. Practiced Spellcaster conveniently covers the first level of Rogue too, giving you full Caster Level.

My bad, either way it is an exelent prc class for rogues/wizard (at least better than arcane trickster.

deuxhero
2010-03-22, 07:18 PM
Need a caster and skill monkey? Beguiler (PHBII) is one right out of the box.

danzibr
2010-03-22, 08:35 PM
Interesting. Thanks for the replies everyone.

Unseen Seer looks really good. Full caster progression. However, I seem to remember thinking of divination spells as kind of crappy. Maybe I just have a poor memory.

I also took interest in Shadowbane Stalker. The flavor would match my wife's Paladin. The other day she actually asked me, "Are you going to be lawful good?"

And... Beguiler looks neat, but the half BAB makes me wary.

Any suggestions for some sort of psion hybrid? Would just pure psychic rogue be decent?

Thanks again.

Dan

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-22, 08:54 PM
Interesting. Thanks for the replies everyone.

Unseen Seer looks really good. Full caster progression. However, I seem to remember thinking of divination spells as kind of crappy. Maybe I just have a poor memory.

Thanks again.

Dan
For the record AFAIK one of the basis of the Batman/Wizard is the proper use of divinations.

Besides the kicker for unseen seer is the advanced learning, you can get a divination spell from ANY list, for example one of the favorite is the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye from the PH II, it gives you more sneak attack depending on your CL, IIRC it is a SA dice per 3 CL.

danzibr
2010-03-22, 09:14 PM
Whoa, Hunter's Eye is awesome. Shows off my ignorance.

Keld Denar
2010-03-22, 09:29 PM
Yea, Hunter's Eye is golden. Divine Insight (CDivine) is another jewel. +15 to any skill check on demand. If you think you'll be encountering a lot of undead, Grave Strike is a cleric divination that allows you sneak attack undead with your spells. Thats a pretty good gig, if the demand is high.

deuxhero
2010-03-22, 11:41 PM
If you care for BAB, want to be a caster AND a skill monkey, I think Factotum 1 (or human paragon if your DM is nice)/crusader/ur priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator would work.

danzibr
2010-03-25, 07:41 AM
Thanks for the input everyone. In case anyone is curious, here's what my final build will look like:

Str 14->18
Dex 14->12
Con 14->16
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 10

ECL 7: Goliath 1 , Rogue 1 (racial sub), Wiz 3, Unseen Seer 2

You may be wondering how I'll be taking Unseen Seer with my fifth HD. My DM allows us to meet the prerequisites of a PrC as we take the first level.

For feats, I'll be taking Brutal Throw for sure. Also probably Practiced Spellcaster. I'm not sure what else to take. For my Divination spells I'll probably take Hunter's Eye, Divine Insight and the one that lets you SA undead.

I'll probably get a cat familiar. Also, I may do a Wizard variant, one that exchanges wiz feats for Fighter feats.

Dan

Last Laugh
2010-03-25, 08:12 AM
If you care for BAB, want to be a caster AND a skill monkey, I think Factotum 1 (or human paragon if your DM is nice)/crusader/ur priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator would work.

Whoa whoa Whoa! Ruby knight vindicator/Ur-Priest... explain please?

I thought that Ur-Priests couldn't have a diety.
"Ur-Priests despises gods"

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 08:50 AM
Whoa whoa Whoa! Ruby knight vindicator/Ur-Priest... explain please?

I thought that Ur-Priests couldn't have a diety.
"Ur-Priests despises gods"

Meet my friend, "Refluff". Refluff, meet Last Laugh. I'm sure you two will be best of friends.

Person_Man
2010-03-25, 08:56 AM
The only reason to be a goliath is for access to Knockback. If you're not going to use a Knockback combo, then the +1 LA just isn't worth it.

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) has slower power progression and fewer power points compared to the Lurk. But the Psychic Rogue also has much better class abilities, with the standouts being Mind Cripple, early Evasion (Lurk gets at level 9), and Sneak Attack (Lurk has to be psionically focused to use Sneak Attack, which is more limited). Between the two, I would choose the Psychic Rogue. But given the fact that you're open to everything, I think Cleric would be the best choice. They can pretty much do anything, and your party lacks everything but meat shields.

I would also add that with two meat shields in your party, you should probably stay away from the front line of combat, especially with a non-reach weapon. Stand back from the front lines and cast spells or use ranged psionic powers. Summon, blast, use battlefield control, buff, etc. There's not much of a reason to just hit things unless you need to conserve resources.


Meet my friend, "Refluff". Refluff, meet Last Laugh. I'm sure you two will be best of friends.

I just re-read the Ur-Preist's entry requirements, and it doesn't explicitly require you to denounce the gods. It just states that if you have the ability to cast divine spells from other classes, those abilities are lost. The fluff is 100% about hating the gods, but not the crunch.

Incidentally, I wonder if it's possible to have 9th level divine spells, 9th level arcane spells, and 9th level maneuvers? It's been a while since I've read a Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge/Jade Phoenix Mage thread.

Escheton
2010-03-25, 09:17 AM
goliath racial substitution barb/psion, actually change powerfull build to being large when raging. Can't really manifest when doing so, but hey, you will only do when pulling out the greatsword anyways. And with a barb dip you are proficient with all martial, something a normal rogue/wizard or psion isnt.
add 2 lvls of rogue( the first at lvl 1 of course) if you really want to go down that road for evasion and trapfinding. Rest of trapsmith skills you can just crossclass at psionlvls. Can manifest in armor, which would light due to evasion anyways.
Don't have complete psionics readily available so thats sorta where that line of thought ends...

Curmudgeon
2010-03-25, 09:20 AM
There's a multiclassing feat for a Cleric/Rogue mix: Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86). It adds Rogue and Cleric levels for both sneak attack and undead turning.

Anyway, even 1 level of Cleric with the Magic domain is enough to let you pretty much forget about Use Magic Device skill. You'll be able to use wands of all Cleric spells plus all Wizard spells.

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 09:25 AM
Incidentally, I wonder if it's possible to have 9th level divine spells, 9th level arcane spells, and 9th level maneuvers? It's been a while since I've read a Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge/Jade Phoenix Mage thread.

Depends on how far you're willing to go. If we use Polymorph Any Object, it should be relatively simple to qualify for Sublime Chord through Lillend. As you only need 14 levels of initiator advancement for 9th level maneuvers, that's relatively easy. You basically enter Ur-Priest on 6, Sublime Chord on 11, fit 4 levels of martial progression before UP (one level wasted to get +3 Will/Fort), 3 levels of RKV after (8 martial adept levels total, 4 levels of UP casting), 5 MT, 4 JPM which gives us 9th level arcane & divine (9 levels of each) and hm, 11 adepts. Well, that's not quite good enough; need to fit in 3 more combination advancement levels.

But yeah, SS 1/Crusader 4/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 3/Sublime Chord 1/MT 5/JPM 4 is a good starting point. Problem is requiring Turning to enter Ur-Priest. Bleh.

Person_Man
2010-03-25, 12:41 PM
Depends on how far you're willing to go. If we use Polymorph Any Object, it should be relatively simple to qualify for Sublime Chord through Lillend. As you only need 14 levels of initiator advancement for 9th level maneuvers, that's relatively easy. You basically enter Ur-Priest on 6, Sublime Chord on 11, fit 4 levels of martial progression before UP (one level wasted to get +3 Will/Fort), 3 levels of RKV after (8 martial adept levels total, 4 levels of UP casting), 5 MT, 4 JPM which gives us 9th level arcane & divine (9 levels of each) and hm, 11 adepts. Well, that's not quite good enough; need to fit in 3 more combination advancement levels.

But yeah, SS 1/Crusader 4/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 3/Sublime Chord 1/MT 5/JPM 4 is a good starting point. Problem is requiring Turning to enter Ur-Priest. Bleh.

Not a problem. Ur Priest requires:

Evil Alignment
Base Fort Save: +3.
Base Will Save: +3.
8 ranks in some Skills.
Feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus (evil).
Must renounce divine spellcasting from previous classes.


Sublime Chord requires:

13 ranks in some Skills.
Class Ability: Bardic Music.
Able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells.


So you were very close. Bard 1/Crusader 4/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 would give you 9th level Divine Spells, 9th level Arcane spells, and 7th level maneuvers/stances (I think).

Also, See Invisibility is a 2nd level Wizard and a 3rd level Bard spell. Speak with Animals, which is a 3rd level Bard spell. You can cast them with Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil or Beast Tamer Circlet) and Open Chakra feats. I'm sure there have got to be some low LA races somewhere which grant access to 2nd and 3rd level spells. So no need for Polymorph any Object, but you do need 1 level of Bard.

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 02:05 PM
Not a problem. Ur Priest requires:

Evil Alignment
Base Fort Save: +3.
Base Will Save: +3.
8 ranks in some Skills.
Feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus (evil).
Must renounce divine spellcasting from previous classes.


Sublime Chord requires:

13 ranks in some Skills.
Class Ability: Bardic Music.
Able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells.


So you were very close. Bard 1/Crusader 4/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 would give you 9th level Divine Spells, 9th level Arcane spells, and 7th level maneuvers/stances (I think).

Also, See Invisibility is a 2nd level Wizard and a 3rd level Bard spell. Speak with Animals, which is a 3rd level Bard spell. You can cast them with Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil or Beast Tamer Circlet) and Open Chakra feats. I'm sure there have got to be some low LA races somewhere which grant access to 2nd and 3rd level spells. So no need for Polymorph any Object, but you do need 1 level of Bard.

Actually, just Alternative Source Spelling your way into Sublime Chord is probably the best way. SS-level can be replaced with Bard-level and this removes the need for PAO-level crap. That said, we're still 3 martial adept levels away from full maneuver progression.

Greenish
2010-03-25, 02:22 PM
with a barb dip you are proficient with all martial, something a normal rogue/wizard or psion isnt.Martial weapons for a Psion? Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer 10/X psionic "gish". BAB 14, ML 15 at ECL 17, grab Practiced Manifester and you're set.

Person_Man
2010-03-25, 02:57 PM
Actually, just Alternative Source Spelling your way into Sublime Chord is probably the best way. SS-level can be replaced with Bard-level and this removes the need for PAO-level crap. That said, we're still 3 martial adept levels away from full maneuver progression.

True. We could always drop 3 levels of Mystic Thuerge in favor of more levels of Ruby Knight or Jade Phoenix. That would give us 9th level maneuvers, 9th level divine or arcane spells, and 7th level spells in whichever side we decided to dump.

Even without 9th level everything, any combination of the above would open up a huge number of combos. Just off the top of my head, Quickened Animate Object + War Master's Charge (White Raven 9). You and every ally within 30 ft Charges. Each of you gets a cumulative +2 to hit for each person that Charges. You get +50 to damage, and each ally gets +25. And if your enemy is hit by you and an ally, they are Stunned for 1 round (No Save). Since Animated Object makes Caster Level allies for you, that works out to 2(CL + 1) bonus to hit, and 50 + (CL * 25) bonus damage. That should be enough to auto-kill almost anything. And that's before tricks from RKV or JPM get added.

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 04:38 PM
True. We could always drop 3 levels of Mystic Thuerge in favor of more levels of Ruby Knight or Jade Phoenix. That would give us 9th level maneuvers, 9th level divine or arcane spells, and 7th level spells in whichever side we decided to dump.

Even without 9th level everything, any combination of the above would open up a huge number of combos. Just off the top of my head, Quickened Animate Object + War Master's Charge (White Raven 9). You and every ally within 30 ft Charges. Each of you gets a cumulative +2 to hit for each person that Charges. You get +50 to damage, and each ally gets +25. And if your enemy is hit by you and an ally, they are Stunned for 1 round (No Save). Since Animated Object makes Caster Level allies for you, that works out to 2(CL + 1) bonus to hit, and 50 + (CL * 25) bonus damage. That should be enough to auto-kill almost anything. And that's before tricks from RKV or JPM get added.

It would be better to max out RKV since we could possibly fit the 7 levels needed for major stupidity.

Escheton
2010-03-25, 07:00 PM
Martial weapons for a Psion? Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer 10/X psionic "gish". BAB 14, ML 15 at ECL 17, grab Practiced Manifester and you're set.

yeah, but thats just going the cliché route. And it would need a roguetype lvl seeing thats what this topic is about, remember guys?