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gallagher
2010-03-23, 12:56 AM
Hey all, I was wondering what the best abjurant champ build is? Only restriction is I have to be a normal race. It's level 8, and I was thinking goig word/Marshall for the charisma synergy.

Any thoughts on that?

Math_Mage
2010-03-23, 02:04 AM
FWIW, the Swiftblade handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook) uses Abjurant Champion for the last 4-5 levels of its sample gish, but that doesn't help you at level 8.

D&D Wiki has this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Transmuter_Gish_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build% 29) Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Fighter +2/Abj. Champion 5 build that might appeal to you. Sorcadin might be a good entry too.

I don't know the Marshal class well enough to comment on your idea (though from what I hear, taking more than 1 level isn't optimized).

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-23, 02:27 AM
Most powerful can be difficult to pin down, but a good Abjurant Champion build is something like one of the three below:

Wizard 6 (Sorcerer could work, given Kobold shenanigans) 6/Swiftblade (9 or 10)/Abjurant Champion (4 or 5)

Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/EK+6.

Wizard 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5.


Now, as for Marhsal and Sorcerer as the base, you're generally better off with neither. Marshal is 3/4 BAB with little in the way of class abilities. Sorcerer gets spells later and fewer spells known, making lost caster levels hurt even more outside of going Kobold for Lore Drake and the Greater Draconic Right.

Keld Denar
2010-03-23, 03:27 AM
Sorcadin is one of the better gish builds.

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8

MASSIVE Cha synergy, 18/20 Sorcerer casting, 16/20 BAB.

If you like bard, and wanna be an archer you could rock something like

Harmonious Knight Paladin2/Sorcerer6/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord2/AbjChamp4/SacEx4

Harmonious Knight sub is in the Champions of Valor web enhancement and gives you bardic music. Shoot your imbued arrows with AMF or other goodies great distances while using your magic to keep safe.

gallagher
2010-03-23, 12:04 PM
Sorcadin is one of the better gish builds.

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8

MASSIVE Cha synergy, 18/20 Sorcerer casting, 16/20 BAB.

If you like bard, and wanna be an archer you could rock something like

Harmonious Knight Paladin2/Sorcerer6/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord2/AbjChamp4/SacEx4

Harmonious Knight sub is in the Champions of Valor web enhancement and gives you bardic music. Shoot your imbued arrows with AMF or other goodies great distances while using your magic to keep safe.
Well, it is partial gestalt, so with sorcadin I can do pally with 2 lvls of ninja for some precision damage.
What book is spellsword in?

Ernir
2010-03-23, 12:14 PM
Well, it is partial gestalt, so with sorcadin I can do pally with 2 lvls of ninja for some precision damage.
What book is spellsword in?

Spellsword is in Complete Warrior.

What are the rules for this partial Gestalt of yours? Gish builds are usually really tight on levels, so this could help immensely.

Gnaritas
2010-03-23, 12:16 PM
Spellsword is from Complete Warrior. For optimization purposes, you do not want more than one level in it.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-23, 12:24 PM
Well, it is partial gestalt, so with sorcadin I can do pally with 2 lvls of ninja for some precision damage
Why Ninja? The Ninja's precision damage is really poor. Rogue is much better than Ninja for, well, for anything, really.

gallagher
2010-03-23, 12:25 PM
:smallsigh:
Spellsword is in Complete Warrior.

What are the rules for this partial Gestalt of yours? Gish builds are usually really tight on levels, so this could help immensely.it is 4th tier can gestalt with 6th, but 5 tier can gestalt with 5 or 6th tier.

Also, what race and what feats are suggeted for this build?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-23, 12:53 PM
Your best option for race would be the Savage Progression Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), and note that you can indefinitely delay spending a level on the +1 LA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). That gets you +2 Cha with no penalties, and the Outsider creature type which can be combined with Alter Self and (Draconic) Polymporph to great effect.

For the partial gestalt, your best choice is probably going to be OA Samurai, since you'll basically get two masterwork weapons which can both be upgraded as though they were Ancestral Relics. If that's not an option, Paladin//Soulknife for those levels wouldn't be a bad choice, you could get Up the Walls and maybe Speed of Thought. You'd never be without a weapon, and from level one you can overcome DR/Magic.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-23, 12:56 PM
:smallsigh:it is 4th tier can gestalt with 6th, but 5 tier can gestalt with 5 or 6th tier.

Also, what race and what feats are suggeted for this build?

I have never really understood partial gestalt, but meh it how you want to play.

Races: You can never go wrong with human, and since you are going sorcerer arace with a cha bonus might be a good option but you need to avoid the con penalty than most of the charismatic races carry.

Also you can try aasimar or the lesser version (PgtF), the normal one is an outsider with all its goodies (Hint: starts with Alt and finish with ter self) but at a LA +1, the lesser doens't have LA but is vulnerable to anti-outsider spells (banishement, dismisall, etc) and anti-humanoid spells (hold person, charm person and the like)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-23, 01:17 PM
I agree mostly. The reason for Mostly is one other: Lesser Air Gensai. Here's my insert:

Race: Lesser Air Gensai
Class: Wizard 7/Warblade 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champ 4
Feats: Otherworldly, Practiced Spellcaster, Item Familiar (make it your weapon ;3), other required feats

Amphetryon
2010-03-23, 01:18 PM
Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/whatever 2 is simple and efficient as a gish build, and unlikely to cause rains of dice, DMGs, or 'Rocks Fall' unless the rest of the group is poorly optimized or you use advanced twinkery.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-23, 01:20 PM
Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/whatever 2 is simple and efficient as a gish build, and unlikely to cause rains of dice, DMGs, or 'Rocks Fall' unless the rest of the group is poorly optimized or you use advanced twinkery.

Or Duskblade/Hexblade/Abjurant Champ/Knight Phantom is also deadly, if done right

Math_Mage
2010-03-23, 01:24 PM
+1 to the Lesser Aasimar and gestalting with OA samurai. Of course, Monks always make for a good gestalt dip for the saves, bonus feats, etc.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-23, 01:34 PM
+1 to the Lesser Aasimar and gestalting with OA samurai. Of course, Monks always make for a good gestalt dip for the saves, bonus feats, etc.

for my money, Samurai is nice, as is Monk, but so are Initiator classes, such as Swordsage and Warblade

and in Gestalt, here's my ace combo:

Lesser Aasamir or Star Elf (trust in my logic)
CW Samurai 4/Abjurant Champ 5/Feat Paladin 5/Master Samurai 6//Warmage 15/Archmage 5
Non-Prerequisite Feat: Otherworldly (Makes you an Outsider)

You have a pair of BA swords, a mount, magic, SLAs, Heavy Armor Casting, and are an Outsider. You are a beast and a half

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-23, 01:36 PM
Alternatively, Wizard 15/Abjurant Champion 5 doesn't loose you any Caster Levels, but then again, it's not exactly a gish build, if that's what you were looking for.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 01:50 PM
Basically, Thrice Dead Cat and Keld Denar covered the most important ones. Abjurant Champion is the perfect addition to any Gish-build and you should never have more than 2 levels of non-casting levels (except when using Sublime Chord), or 3 with Wizard, aiming to minimize them.

I'd like to add Warblade (or Crusader) 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5 to the list; it's fairly solid and quite powerful. Also, while Battle Sorcerer usually sucks, the simple Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 isn't actually bad at the end of its career thanks to having full Sorc casting; compared to losing 2 CLs it matches up quite well in spite of using Battle Sorcerer (though make sure you have access to Runestaves).

Ernir
2010-03-23, 01:50 PM
:smallsigh:it is 4th tier can gestalt with 6th, but 5 tier can gestalt with 5 or 6th tier.
Interesting.

Well, that means that you can have those Marshal levels you said you were thinking about without screwing up your BAB, by Gestalting them with Warrior or Samurai.

If the Harmonious Knight sublevel is allowed and ruled to meet the Sublime Chord prereqs, it is a great way to do so.

My build idea:

Marshal 2 (Gestalt: Warrior)/Harmonious Knight Paladin 2 (Gestalt: Fighter for bonus feats)/AnyComboWithFullBAB 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 3-5/Sacred Exorcist to the finish line.

Also, what race and what feats are suggeted for this build?

Human is recommended, as always. :smalltongue:
Kobolds are good, even more so with cheese, and even more again if you go with a Sorcerer casting chassis.
Neverleveladjusted Aasimar (See Biffoniacus' post) or Lesser Aasimar work too.

Feats...
You'll need Combat Casting just to enter the PrC you want.

Able Learner may or may not make it make it much easier to meet the skill point prereqs of whatever PrCs you end up aiming for.

Arcane Strike is a standard Gish feat. So is Power Attack. Quicken Spell or some other means to get swift action spellcasting is more or less mandatory.

You want some way to move+full attack. Travel Devotion is cool, especially if you end up with Turn Undead access.

Mauther
2010-03-23, 02:39 PM
This is not the most powerful build (the pure casters are going to win out on that every time) but I had fun with a Knight 3/Fighter2/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion X. Take the alternate Fighter ability out of PHBII that lets you cast spells in armor, feat up with Battle Caster and get Mithril Full Plate. Take the alternate Specialist Wizard in the PHBII for oodles of Abjuration spells. You'll never be a succesful high level caster, but its a b17ch and a half to kill as you have high AC, high HP, and Abjuration spells to cover all of the defensive needs.

Again, not nearly as dominating as the full Gish's listed above, but I found it a nice change of pace. When you run through the AbChamp, swing over to SwiftBlade for some fun. Around 15 your essentially a perpetually hasted heavy fighter dripping with defensive magic.

Math_Mage
2010-03-23, 02:47 PM
for my money, Samurai is nice, as is Monk, but so are Initiator classes, such as Swordsage and Warblade

and in Gestalt, here's my ace combo:

Lesser Aasamir or Star Elf (trust in my logic)
CW Samurai 4/Abjurant Champ 5/Feat Paladin 5/Master Samurai 6//Warmage 15/Archmage 5
Non-Prerequisite Feat: Otherworldly (Makes you an Outsider)

You have a pair of BA swords, a mount, magic, SLAs, Heavy Armor Casting, and are an Outsider. You are a beast and a half

Partial gestalt. He can gestalt Tier 5//Tier 5 or Tier 4//Tier 6, but not Warmage or Abj. Champ or Archmage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-23, 04:35 PM
My suggestion:

Pal2//Monk2 to start off with. You get: Full BAB. Cha to all saves. Cha to AC (in a moment), Evasion, all three good saves, a few decent feats.

From there,

Sorc4. Pick up the monk/sorcerer feat that lets you use CHA to AC rather than Wis, and you are rocking some decent AC unarmored.

Spellsword1. +1 BAB, +1 Caster Level. -10% ASF. What's not to like?

Abjurant Champion. Now you've got the right chassis to run with it.

At level 8, you only have a single level of Abjurant Champion, but that's okay. You can continue to advance in it.

gallagher
2010-03-23, 04:46 PM
Were it be beneficial to go pally/soulknife for the first 3 levels, then sorceror2, spellsword1, the abj champ?

Mongoose87
2010-03-23, 04:50 PM
Why Soulknife? Isn't that the worst class ever?

Math_Mage
2010-03-23, 04:55 PM
Were it be beneficial to go pally/soulknife for the first 3 levels, then sorceror2, spellsword1, the abj champ?

Eh, you lose CL and BAB for not-really-good abilities that don't scale. Pass.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-23, 05:05 PM
Were it be beneficial to go pally/soulknife for the first 3 levels, then sorceror2, spellsword1, the abj champ?

Nah, go Pal//Monk 2 /Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp. It'll be superior in every way.

gallagher
2010-03-23, 08:07 PM
Nah, go Pal//Monk 2 /Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp. It'll be superior in every way.

What is the point of spellsword, then, if I get charisma to ac when unarmored?or is it just a way to get a caster level with a base attack bonus at the same time?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-23, 08:12 PM
What is the point of spellsword, then, if I get charisma to ac when unarmored?or is it just a way to get a caster level with a base attack bonus at the same time?

The latter. You need +5 BAB to get into AbCHamp.

Pal2//Monk2 = 2
Sorc4 = 2
You need something with + BAb and + CL in one level. So, Spellsword.

Besides, you can apply the reduction of ASF to shields as well...

gallagher
2010-03-23, 08:18 PM
The latter. You need +5 BAB to get into AbCHamp.

Pal2//Monk2 = 2
Sorc4 = 2
You need something with + BAb and + CL in one level. So, Spellsword.

Besides, you can apply the reduction of ASF to shields as well...

Monks lose their ac bonus if they carry a shield

Soonerdj
2010-03-23, 08:24 PM
You know by "normal" races I pretty much mean nothing immortal or anthropomorphic? If you want to take Silverbrow Human, Strongheart Halfling, Whisper Gnome, Etc. Feel free.

As far as the build, If you still want to focus on your earlier monk build but incorporating the casting you could also go

(Monk 4//Paladin2/Fighter2)/Sorc 2/Abjurant Champion5
Giving you a BaB of +10 and a CL of +10 and Level 7 Sorc Casting at 11 along with some pretty tough melee. After that no idea :P

gallagher
2010-03-23, 11:04 PM
You know by "normal" races I pretty much mean nothing immortal or anthropomorphic? If you want to take Silverbrow Human, Strongheart Halfling, Whisper Gnome, Etc. Feel free.

As far as the build, If you still want to focus on your earlier monk build but incorporating the casting you could also go

(Monk 4//Paladin2/Fighter2)/Sorc 2/Abjurant Champion5
Giving you a BaB of +10 and a CL of +10 and Level 7 Sorc Casting at 11 along with some pretty tough melee. After that no idea :P

First of all, what is a silverbrow human?

And secondly, I think that a pally/soulknife 2 sorceror 4 spellsword1 abjurant champ 2 will be fine. Can a spellknife finesse his mindblade?

tyckspoon
2010-03-23, 11:07 PM
First of all, what is a silverbrow human?


Dragonblooded Human variant from Races of the Dragon. Mostly useful for that [Dragonblooded] trait, which qualifies you for a few useful feats, spells, and other dragon-related things.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-24, 12:18 AM
First of all, what is a silverbrow human?

And secondly, I think that a pally/soulknife 2 sorceror 4 spellsword1 abjurant champ 2 will be fine. Can a spellknife finesse his mindblade?

Silverbrow Human is mostly used for feat-intensive builds which require the Dragonblood subtype, such as a DFI Bard. I'd expect Aasimar and its variants to be available in a normal-races-game.

The Mind Blade is identical to a Shortsword, so it is finessable, but that's not a good idea. Gish builds want to use a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, using (Extended/Persistent) Wraithstrike with Arcane Strike to ensure that they hit despite Power Attacking for their entire BAB. In that case, focusing on strength is always going to be better than dexterity. Soulknife is there to get better saves and skills, and also to qualify for psionic feats. The Mind Blade is there just in case you need it, such as if you're swallowed whole and forgot to get armor spikes and need to cut your way out, or if you're at a ball or other event where nobody was allowed to bring weapons with them and a fight starts, or if you forgot to bring a ranged weapon and need something to throw at someone. Unless you run into a low-level opponent with DR/Magic, such as a Grick, you're going to be better off using a two-handed weapon. The Mind Blade is there to add more options to the character, just in case you need it, rather than being something you focus on.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-24, 01:12 AM
In the event that you go with the Sorcadin with monk gestalted with Paladin, I would recommend looking into Book of Exalted Deeds for the wonders that are Luminous Armor and its greater counterpart. Both are abjuration, so Abjurant Champion actually works with it and both apply an additional penalty against melee attacks. For bonus points, they're spells and not real armor, so whatever monk AC bonus you have would stick around. Overall, fairly solid stuffs.

Speaking on the monk AC bonus, as well, Complete Adventurer has a feat to key the bonus AC off of Cha instead of Wis, so it would go farther than normal for you.

Math_Mage
2010-03-24, 01:17 AM
In the event that you go with the Sorcadin with monk gestalted with Paladin, I would recommend looking into Book of Exalted Deeds for the wonders that are Luminous Armor and its greater counterpart. Both are abjuration, so Abjurant Champion actually works with it and both apply an additional penalty against melee attacks. For bonus points, they're spells and not real armor, so whatever monk AC bonus you have would stick around. Overall, fairly solid stuffs.

Speaking on the monk AC bonus, as well, Complete Adventurer has a feat to key the bonus AC off of Cha instead of Wis, so it would go farther than normal for you.

Specifically, Ascetic Mage.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-24, 09:09 AM
Or you could take Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium) instead of Monk and save the feat.

Petrocorus
2010-03-24, 10:34 AM
Harmonious Knight Paladin2/Sorcerer6/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord2/AbjChamp4/SacEx4

Harmonious Knight sub is in the Champions of Valor web enhancement and gives you bardic music. Shoot your imbued arrows with AMF or other goodies great distances while using your magic to keep safe.

Would you have a link?

Eldariel
2010-03-24, 10:48 AM
Would you have a link?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

Petrocorus
2010-03-24, 12:02 PM
It's not a gestalt but you can try another version of the Bardadin:

Paladin of Freedom 2 / (Savage) Bard 4 / Abj. Champion 2 / (Sav.) Bard 2 /Sublime Chord 2+ / Other PrC 8+

Savage Bard can be used instead of Bard for improving the Fort saves, but leaves a weak Ref saves.
After 2 lvl in Sublime chord, you can take the last 3 lvl in Abj. Champion, 1 dip in dragonslayer, spellsword, and maybe bladesinger. This is possible to dip into other PrC like spelldancer, unseen seer, or some other.