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AbyssKnight
2010-03-23, 01:14 AM
I keep hearing good things about the stuff in the Dragon Magazine Compendium (Tibbits, Force Missile Mage, Kung Fu Genius, Serenity), so I went out and acquired a copy.

I really like the Battle Dancer class. So I figured I would ask for some opinions from fellow playgrounders.

Battle Dancer seems like the perfect class to enter Dervish. I would like to dip another class for martial weapon profs, I was thinking Swashbuckler or Hit and Run Fighter (DotU). Alternatively, I could use Versatile Unarmed Strike to make my unarmed attacks slashing.

An elven Battle Dancer works as a good intro for Bladesinger, and I thought a Battledancer 5/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9 would be a cool character (I wish I could figure how to get that last Swiftblade level in).

I also think Battle Dancer would be a great Monk-substitute for certain builds, and saves on funky alignment shifting. Fist of the Forest and Frostrager come to mind.

For some builds I wished it worked a little better, like Enlightened Fist (Stunning Fist is a pain without Monk) and Drunken Master (stupid Flurry requirement).

I also really like the Death Master class, though more for flavor than any build ideas it has given me (yet). I would have loved to have a Death Master/Thrall of Orcus (NPC, maybe), if only Thrall of Orcus' casting didn't suck so much.

So, while focusing on Battle Dancer ideas, I would also like to hear your thoughts on the other classes in the Compendium. I haven't read through the others very completely (of course I thought of Joker when I saw Jester, maybe Sharn can stand in for Gotham) so some thoughts on the other would be nice too.

arguskos
2010-03-23, 01:32 AM
DID SOMEONE SAY DRAGON COMPENDIUM?!?! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Ok, seriously, I mentioned it in my sig for awhile, I love it so much.

Anyways, on to the base class analysis.
-Battle Dancer: Solidly Tier 5. It's better than the Monk due to it being less MAD and getting some actually interesting class features, but it lacks heavily on useful things to do in combat, since it can't deal damage worth squat. Fun concept, but ultimately fails to do anything, which sucks, cause the concept is interesting.
-Death Master: Solidly Tier 3. It's a full-caster, about on par with a Dread Necromancer. The DNecro gets actual CLASS FEATURES, but the Death Master gets some better spell selection and a few class features that rock (undead minion, mostly). For giggles, gestalt DNecro and Death Master. At level 20, you become a lich... twice.
-Jester: Personally, I'd rank it Tier 3-4, similar to the Bard. It is a highly similar class, and plays about the same. As far as I can see (having mostly skipped it honestly), the Jester is fairly well put together. Their spell list looked a little more dangerous than the Bard list, which could be interesting to fiddle about with.
-Mountebank: God how terrible this class is. Tier 5. Beguiling Gaze, while a cool idea, just fails to be impressive, since it has some rough caveats and has the mind-affecting tag. The rest of their class features are less than impressive, with the best ones... keying off of the beguiling gaze. :smallsigh: I love the flavor and the feel, but ugh, the mechanics are lacking.
-Savant: My personal favorite. Tier 3-4. The Savant is the class that I feel should have been considered as a base for the true skillmonkey, instead of the Factotum. Now, I love the Factotum as well, but the Savant FEELS more like a true every-man than the Factotum does. The Savant has the same level of breadth, but is less flexible on a moment's notice. I personally have a handful of fixes for the class to make it somewhat better and more playable. If you're interested, PM me, and I'll hook you up.
-Sha'ir: Hard to rate. Depending on how you play, it could be Wizard-levels of amazing, or total crap. If you find yourself on a time crunch frequently, the Sha'ir is going to suffer, seeing as the Gen takes quite some time to get spells. However, the Sha'ir has an amazing level of versatility, and it's quite possible to make a spells known list that is drop-dead amazing.
-Urban Druid: It's a druid, but urban. If that floats your boat, go for it.

I can run-down the PrCs, races, and everything else later, if desired. The DC is my personal favorite book from all of 3.5, tied with the Tome of Magic, so I could talk about it ALL DAY.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-23, 01:48 AM
This thread has piqued my interest. I'm going to go read through the Dragon Compendium now.

Starscream
2010-03-23, 01:48 AM
I'm with arguskos, the DC pretty much rocks. In particular I'm a fan of Jesters. I'd say they are more powerful than a straight Bard, but Bards also get a lot of great Prestige Class options like Virtuoso, Seeker of the Song, and Sublime Chord. Jesters don't have much, although Master of Masks would be fun.

In practice I find that Dread Necromancers are better than Death Masters. Don't get me wrong, Death Masters are awesome, but I prefer to use them as NPC villains than play them myself.

Mountebank does indeed suck. They should have compressed it down to 5 levels and made it a prestige class.

As for Battle Dancers, yes they are more powerful than Monks (not saying much). But they have great flavor. I'd personally like to combine one with an unarmed Swordsage sometime. That'd be pretty cool.

I have never played a Sha'ir, an Urban Druid, or a Savant. Savant at least seems pretty cool, though I adore Factotums. Urban Druid doesn't really do anything for me. As for Sha'ir, I honestly can't tell if it's any good or not. The genie-themed flavor is cool, but I have no idea how well it actually works.

absolmorph
2010-03-23, 01:50 AM
-Urban Druid: It's a druid, but urban. If that floats your boat, go for it.
What... But.... How the hell can you be attuned with nature (the point of being a druid, typically) and spend your time hanging around an area developed by humans and not following the "laws" of nature?! WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN.

Temotei
2010-03-23, 01:54 AM
What... But.... How the hell can you be attuned with nature (the point of being a druid, typically) and spend your time hanging around an area developed by humans and not following the "laws" of nature?! WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN.

*boom*

*sigh* Good poster, absolmorph. It's a shame (s)he had to go and die from brain explosions.

Cue the sad music. :smallfrown:

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-23, 04:55 AM
What... But.... How the hell can you be attuned with nature (the point of being a druid, typically) and spend your time hanging around an area developed by humans and not following the "laws" of nature?! WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN.

Humans are made of meat. You're made of meat.


Your whole family is made of meat.



The Mountebank would actually be almost decent if your removed all the per day restrictions on their abilities. Then it would be a pretty cool warlock counterpart.
And battle dancer makes an amazing dip.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-23, 05:50 AM
Oh, Dragon Compendium. Home of the Dvati, feats that either do justice or null it, and of classes full of flavor and nice.

Battle Dancer: as mentioned; basically a Monk but with a different feel. Also the right path for Dervish. The big problem is that, while you get some nice stuff, you get it later; the ability to fly-charge is super-awesome, but not exactly the fact that you have to wait about 10 or so levels to get it.

Death Master treads too much on the path of Dread Necromancer. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

Jester: while most people say it's like the Bard, I say it's the anti-Bard. Or, in Final Fantasy terms; the jester is to the D&D bard what the dancer is to the FF bard. It has one or two buffs, but the feel of the class is debuffing; distraction, penalties, whatnot. It is a refreshing change, but somewhat incomplete.

Mountebank is the name of a so-so prestige class on Complete Scoundrel and also appears as the name of one cape. Yes, it is that horrible; it is a certified mind-affecting effect because of how bad it is.
Savant: I don't say it's the real skill-monkey or jack of all trades. To me, the feeling is far more different (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Scholar). Look at it and tell me that's not the feeling it rightfully evokes.

Sha'ir is basically updating the old Dark Sun sha'ir, but the concept is too difficult to handle. It requires you having a genie "familiar", and basically negotiating for your spells. Then, you have to wait for your spells. It's a class that's way too much flavor and too little worthwhile mechanic; it is almost like the Truenamer, where if you know exactly how to play it, you can do nice stuff with it.

Urban Druid has its justification. A city is often considered an artificial jungle and also a place where life exists; considering the sewers/culverts (where applicable), the large amount of domesticated animals, the plants and trees that decorate most of the places, the vermin and whatnot, you have enough nature to justify having a druid. Then again, you don't need the Dragon Compendium to play an Urban Druid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a); Cityscape already has a variant for it. You may decide whether the Urban Druid from Dragon Compendium or the urban ACFs for Druid mentioned above are worthwhile; mix and match what you like.

Also, do prestige classes count? Some of them are silly (Force Missile Mage!!!), some are good tries (Arcanopath Monk and Monk of the Enabled Hand, in trying to fix the Monk problem without going psionics or unarmed Swordsage; nevertheless, not exactly good fixes) or weird.

Optimystik
2010-03-23, 06:28 AM
Mountebank does indeed suck. They should have compressed it down to 5 levels and made it a prestige class.

They did :smalltongue: check Complete Scoundrel.

Okay, so they don't have a lot in common besides the name, sneak attack(-ish) and the ability to dimension door around. But still!


As for Battle Dancers, yes they are more powerful than Monks (not saying much). But they have great flavor. I'd personally like to combine one with an unarmed Swordsage sometime. That'd be pretty cool.

I consider them at least superior to Chaos Monks.
They can pounce, choose which DR to overcome and fly, all out of the box - making them a nice candidate for VoP. The poor fort save on a melee class is a downer though, and the good abilities come quite late. (Pounce isn't till 11, flight isn't till 17...)
Their dances are also supernatural, which is a definite PITA. :smallannoyed:

arguskos
2010-03-24, 02:25 PM
Oh, Dragon Compendium. Home of the Dvati, feats that either do justice or null it, and of classes full of flavor and nice.
Dear, the Dvati, a lovely race, sadly given issues due to lack of clarification on how to use the damn things.


Battle Dancer: as mentioned; basically a Monk but with a different feel. Also the right path for Dervish. The big problem is that, while you get some nice stuff, you get it later; the ability to fly-charge is super-awesome, but not exactly the fact that you have to wait about 10 or so levels to get it.
Yeah, I do like that they can dancefly and pouncedancefly, but the fact that you only get this stuff late in the game fails really hard. :smallsigh:


Death Master treads too much on the path of Dread Necromancer. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.
I still want to play a Death Master//Dread Necromancer.


Jester: while most people say it's like the Bard, I say it's the anti-Bard. Or, in Final Fantasy terms; the jester is to the D&D bard what the dancer is to the FF bard. It has one or two buffs, but the feel of the class is debuffing; distraction, penalties, whatnot. It is a refreshing change, but somewhat incomplete.
Yeah, that's the feel I get as well, though I hate FF with a BURNING PASSION, but yes, it is the Anti-Bard. Better than what I said and totally right to boot.


Mountebank is the name of a so-so prestige class on Complete Scoundrel and also appears as the name of one cape. Yes, it is that horrible; it is a certified mind-affecting effect because of how bad it is.
I see what you did there.


Savant: I don't say it's the real skill-monkey or jack of all trades. To me, the feeling is far more different (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Scholar). Look at it and tell me that's not the feeling it rightfully evokes.
Sorry, hate FF, can't respect your point. :smalltongue: Anyways, yes, I see what you're saying, though I still think it was intended to be the truly quintessential skill monkey.


Sha'ir is basically updating the old Dark Sun sha'ir, but the concept is too difficult to handle. It requires you having a genie "familiar", and basically negotiating for your spells. Then, you have to wait for your spells. It's a class that's way too much flavor and too little worthwhile mechanic; it is almost like the Truenamer, where if you know exactly how to play it, you can do nice stuff with it.
Again, better phrased than me, and totally right anyways.


Urban Druid has its justification. A city is often considered an artificial jungle and also a place where life exists; considering the sewers/culverts (where applicable), the large amount of domesticated animals, the plants and trees that decorate most of the places, the vermin and whatnot, you have enough nature to justify having a druid. Then again, you don't need the Dragon Compendium to play an Urban Druid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a); Cityscape already has a variant for it. You may decide whether the Urban Druid from Dragon Compendium or the urban ACFs for Druid mentioned above are worthwhile; mix and match what you like.
I always thought an Urban Druid was easy to figure out: some druids must maintain the balance of nature and civilization, and to do that, they must enter and live in harmony with the cities.


Also, do prestige classes count? Some of them are silly (Force Missile Mage!!!), some are good tries (Arcanopath Monk and Monk of the Enabled Hand, in trying to fix the Monk problem without going psionics or unarmed Swordsage; nevertheless, not exactly good fixes) or weird.
I think I might actually go ahead and give opinions on all the PrCs. It's a fun diversion. See below in the spoiler for details.


Aerial Avenger: Ooookay, we start with a flight-based PrC. Well, if you can fly naturally, this is a decent martialist class for you... wait, you only get 3/4 BAB. :smallsigh: The best ability here is probably Swoop, but you have to be 6th level in the PrC to get it, so... yeah. Personally, I'd pass in most cases, and it'd niche ANYWAYS.

Arcanopath Monk: Well, it doesn't FIX the issues with the Monk class, but it does do some interesting and fun things. Their class features are all interesting, if nothing else. Personally, the capstone makes me laugh as a serious slap in the face to any arcane caster he connects on. Sadly, the class just doesn't fix enough issues with the Monk class to make it worth the time.

Blessed of Gruumsh: Ok, this is an interesting orc-specific PrC. The 1/day limits on most of his class features suck, but they're all interesting enough to make it ok. If we made them 1/encounter, or even 3/day, this would be a good orc martialist PrC. Also, there's an amusing typo. Divine Blessing on the table shows it only goes up to +3. In the text though, the bonus is equal to the Blesssed's class level. :smallamused:

Cerebrex: Ugh. If ever a class wasn't worth 5/10 casting, this would be it. I like the Cerebrex, and it has a veritable avalanche of interesting and flavorful class features, but god, it loses so much casting, it's just a disaster. Personally, I could see losing two levels to get Aggression Mastery, which could be a good buff for the non-barbarian martialists in the group (or for a gish perhaps).

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna: Ohgodwhy. Again with the 5/10 casting. Now, I could see this class being pretty good with a Mystic Ranger, but that's about it honestly. You get Ex haste, superMobility, and a supercharge. However, the best stuff is at the end of the PrC... and honestly, it's not really worth it, ESPECIALLY given the prereqs of Dodge, Mobility, and Run. If you are a Mystic Ranger with nothing better to take, and you like running a lot, ok, have a blast. Otherwise, steer clear.

Flux Adept: AGAINWITHTHEHALFCASTING. :smallsigh: And again, with the totally not being worth it. To be fair, you do get Ex Haste and some other interesting (if unamazing) abilities. You don't get any Polymorph based stuff though, which was disappointing. Verdict? Probably pass in most cases.

Force Missile Mage: Nothing I can say here that hasn't been said a million times already: it's awesome. If you love Magic Missile, you'll love FMM. It could do with full casting (since let's be honest, you're spamming Magic Missile, it's hardly gonna break the game) and the ability to use the class features with Chain Missile and Force Missile (from the SpC). Otherwise, no complaints.

Monk of the Enabled Hand: Oooookay. It's easy to qualify for (feats are mostly bonuses from Monk levels) and gives some interesting abilities. The best ability is probably the level one ability, Shim Soo, for making attacks touch attacks. It's not a Monk fixer, but it does help in a few limited ways. I like Monk of the Enabled Hand, though it's not amazing.

Osteomancer: Ok, this one is odd. On first glance, the half casting dooms this to suckville, but then, it hits you that... Osteomancer is a gish class. I started thinking about entries, and hit on this: Duskblade 5/Osteomancer 10/Duskblade +5. It's not an amazing build by any means (and you have to take Heal cross-class), but it IS an interesting character to be certain. I like Osteomancer, it's flavorful, mechanically doable, and probably can be made into something great by someone with more will and ability than I.

Shaper of Form: This class is bizarre. It's a transmutation-based class, with 6/10 casting, and a pile of strange effects. You get good stuff (Polymorph, PAO, disjunction) and some strange stuff (increasing hardness of objects, turning one object into another, saves against transmutation effects). Overall, I'm unsure what to say about Shaper of Forum. My gut tells me it has potential, but it's... strange, to say the least. Not really sure what to do with it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 02:30 PM
I still want to play a Death Master//Dread Necromancer.

And who wouldn't want DR 30/Magic and Bludgeoning? And +8 Cha? For free.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 02:34 PM
And who wouldn't want DR 30/Magic and Bludgeoning? And +8 Cha? For free.
Amen. :smallamused: Seriously, a Death Master//Dread Necromancer covers a lot of necromantic ground, gets a massive bevy of fun class features, and can cast in armor (thanks to the Death Master's blood components). I'd play one.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-24, 05:07 PM
Sorry, hate FF, can't respect your point. :smalltongue:

I'm developing a slight tendency to think that most of the Playgrounders despise Final Fantasy. Perhaps...it's just me, but I've heard it a couple of times.

Or maybe just a few. In any case, given what they've done with XIII...please return to sender and...


Anyways, yes, I see what you're saying, though I still think it was intended to be the truly quintessential skill monkey.

I wouldn't say the quintessential skill monkey. Factotum and Rogue cover that perfectly well. Savant is a rare class, in which it's meant to be a jack of all trades but with a more intellectual bent rather than a skill bent as the Bard and Factotum do. Skill monkey =/= jack-of-all-trades, since the former focuses on handling as many challenges that require skill checks while the latter focuses on covering all grounds, including magical and combat grounds which may not require as much skill as they require a good hand or a clear mind.

Savant works as a Scholar since it brings the "I know a lot of stuff" thing from the Archivist or Loremaster with a limited grasp in magic and a sub-par fighting skill (though, IIRC, they get both UMD and a decent amount of divine spells, not sure if they have Divine Power within them) The best analogue to it was the Scholar from Final Fantasy. Though, if you're not keen with it, the Sage/Professor line from Ragnarok Online does something along the same lines (sans healing)

I think I might actually go ahead and give opinions on all the PrCs. It's a fun diversion. See below in the spoiler for details.



Aerial Avenger: Ooookay, we start with a flight-based PrC. Well, if you can fly naturally, this is a decent martialist class for you... wait, you only get 3/4 BAB. :smallsigh: The best ability here is probably Swoop, but you have to be 6th level in the PrC to get it, so... yeah. Personally, I'd pass in most cases, and it'd niche ANYWAYS.

Arcanopath Monk: Well, it doesn't FIX the issues with the Monk class, but it does do some interesting and fun things. Their class features are all interesting, if nothing else. Personally, the capstone makes me laugh as a serious slap in the face to any arcane caster he connects on. Sadly, the class just doesn't fix enough issues with the Monk class to make it worth the time.

Blessed of Gruumsh: Ok, this is an interesting orc-specific PrC. The 1/day limits on most of his class features suck, but they're all interesting enough to make it ok. If we made them 1/encounter, or even 3/day, this would be a good orc martialist PrC. Also, there's an amusing typo. Divine Blessing on the table shows it only goes up to +3. In the text though, the bonus is equal to the Blesssed's class level. :smallamused:

Cerebrex: Ugh. If ever a class wasn't worth 5/10 casting, this would be it. I like the Cerebrex, and it has a veritable avalanche of interesting and flavorful class features, but god, it loses so much casting, it's just a disaster. Personally, I could see losing two levels to get Aggression Mastery, which could be a good buff for the non-barbarian martialists in the group (or for a gish perhaps).

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna: Ohgodwhy. Again with the 5/10 casting. Now, I could see this class being pretty good with a Mystic Ranger, but that's about it honestly. You get Ex haste, superMobility, and a supercharge. However, the best stuff is at the end of the PrC... and honestly, it's not really worth it, ESPECIALLY given the prereqs of Dodge, Mobility, and Run. If you are a Mystic Ranger with nothing better to take, and you like running a lot, ok, have a blast. Otherwise, steer clear.

Flux Adept: AGAINWITHTHEHALFCASTING. :smallsigh: And again, with the totally not being worth it. To be fair, you do get Ex Haste and some other interesting (if unamazing) abilities. You don't get any Polymorph based stuff though, which was disappointing. Verdict? Probably pass in most cases.

Force Missile Mage: Nothing I can say here that hasn't been said a million times already: it's awesome. If you love Magic Missile, you'll love FMM. It could do with full casting (since let's be honest, you're spamming Magic Missile, it's hardly gonna break the game) and the ability to use the class features with Chain Missile and Force Missile (from the SpC). Otherwise, no complaints.

Monk of the Enabled Hand: Oooookay. It's easy to qualify for (feats are mostly bonuses from Monk levels) and gives some interesting abilities. The best ability is probably the level one ability, Shim Soo, for making attacks touch attacks. It's not a Monk fixer, but it does help in a few limited ways. I like Monk of the Enabled Hand, though it's not amazing.

Osteomancer: Ok, this one is odd. On first glance, the half casting dooms this to suckville, but then, it hits you that... Osteomancer is a gish class. I started thinking about entries, and hit on this: Duskblade 5/Osteomancer 10/Duskblade +5. It's not an amazing build by any means (and you have to take Heal cross-class), but it IS an interesting character to be certain. I like Osteomancer, it's flavorful, mechanically doable, and probably can be made into something great by someone with more will and ability than I.

Shaper of Form: This class is bizarre. It's a transmutation-based class, with 6/10 casting, and a pile of strange effects. You get good stuff (Polymorph, PAO, disjunction) and some strange stuff (increasing hardness of objects, turning one object into another, saves against transmutation effects). Overall, I'm unsure what to say about Shaper of Forum. My gut tells me it has potential, but it's... strange, to say the least. Not really sure what to do with it.

Arcanopath Monk is a botched attempt to make the Monk a spellcaster-slayer. It has some nice features to make spellcasters bite it (perhaps more with the Mage Slayer feat line), but the inherent problems with the class unfortunately don't help it (much less that spellcasters are broken anyways). It does have some denial abilities, which is a good start.

Monk of the Enabled Hand, though... I find that it has some nice class abilities. Touch attacks are no joke, and a good way to handle the low BAB problem (along with Intuitive Strike or Weapon Finesse). The rest...is circumstancial, of course.

Blessed of Gruumsh and Fleet Runner of Ehlonna were part of a series of deity-specific PrCs; the others were, as you may have imagined, the Champion of Corellon Larethian (IIRC), the Shining Blade of Heironeous (which is slightly better in its original incarnation, if you want 10 levels for the Celestial (not Half-Celestial) template, and the Radiant Servant of Pelor. As you can see, not the best PrCs on the bunch. They could use a fix, tho.

Force Missile Mage is far too focused to do what it's meant to do. So sure, you can expand your spells to add Chain Missile and Force Missile, but then...what else? The provided protection isn't enough, and the rest of the abilities are something that even the Warmage out of the box does better. It's silly because it was made to spam Magic Missile, which is not the best spell on the list out there (not bad, but not good either)

The rest I won't comment; I don't like them that much. Except Shaper of Flesh; good concept, but I feel it was badly executed.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 05:11 PM
I'm developing a slight tendency to think that most of the Playgrounders despise Final Fantasy. Perhaps...it's just me, but I've heard it a couple of times.


FF is entertaining, but very frustraiting when half of the enemies you need to kill are immune to status effects, and the other half are just plain immune to you.


In other words, Square Enix needs to balance out the effing spells!

Starscream
2010-03-24, 07:44 PM
I like final Fantasy I-VII. Classic.

I'd tell you what I think of VIII, but the Spoony One already did it far better than I could. Abridged version: Lame.

IX was alright. Not great, not a masterpiece, not a disaster. Alright.

X stunk. Mostly I was disappointed that it wasn't IX done right, and instead was more like VIII again. I want to watch Squall and Tidus fight to the death. And I get to kill the winner.

Set
2010-03-24, 07:55 PM
I liked the article on new alchemy stuff. More alchemy *always* floats my boat.

The body-warpage PrCs (osteomancer, cerebramancer) probably would have worked better as 5 level classes with 4/5 casting progression. They just got stretched out to the point that I can't see anyone shooting their caster in the head by taking them.

But that's pretty much my thought on almost *every* PrC. Too long. Most would work in 5 levels, some would work in 3 levels, and there are far too many where the only thing exceptional about it could be squeezed into *one* level (or a couple of feats).