PDA

View Full Version : A Trick Up Your Sleeve [3.5]



Lix Lorn
2010-03-23, 05:25 AM
Expanded Knowledge (Magical)

Prerequisites: Caster Level 3rd
Benefit: You may add any one spell to your spells known list (For spontaneous casters), spellbook (for Wizards) or to your class spell list. (For divine casters). This spell may be of any level up to one level lower than the highest spell level you are capable of casting, and may be from any spell list. (Including spells unobtainable by normal means, such as the specialist spells for the Domain Wizard.
Normal: You cannot gain spells except by levelling up or by studying, and you may not acquire spells outside your class without multiclassing.

Notes: A magical equivalent of Expanded Knowledge.

Hidden Talent

Benefit: A flair for magic manifest itself within you. Choose a spell level of up to one less than the highest you are capable of casting. Add one to your maximum spells per day for that level.
Normal: You cannot add to your spells per day without levelling up or studying.
Notes: The equivalent of Psionic/Wild Talent

Trick Up Your Sleeve

Prerequisites: Either Spellcraft 2 and no spellcasting ability (For the magical variant) or Psicraft 2 and no manifesting ability. (For the psionic Variant.)
Benefit:
(Magical) You gain a Caster level equal to one higher than your highest class level. You do not gain any spells known, nor do you gain additional spells per day for high ability scores.
Your Spells Per Day progression grants you zero spells all the way through, but allows you the ability to cast spells at the same rate and level a Wizard. (You may cast first or zero level spells at Level 1, second level spells at level 3, and etcetera, provided you have some other means of learning a spell and acquiring a spell per day.) This feat allows you to take metamagic feats. If you ever gain a level in any true spellcasting class, you lose all benefits of this feat for as long as you have those spellcasting abilities.
(Psionic) You gain a Manifesting level equal to one higher than your highest class level. You do not gain any powers known, nor do you gain power points for high ability scores.
You do not gain any power points through use of this power, but you are considered a psionic character. This feat allows you to take psionic feats.
If you ever gain a level in a true manifesting class, you lose all benefits of this feat for as long as you have those manifesting abilities.
Normal: Only spellcasting/manifesting classes can gain any abilities from these areas.
Special: You may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat. If you do, then you may also take Hidden Talent (if the magical variant) or Psionic Talent (if the psionic variant) as fighter bonus feats. Add the following skills to your class skill list: All: Concentration, Magical: Spellcraft, Arcane: Knowledge (Arcane) Divine: Knowledge (Religion), Psionic: Psicraft, Knowledge (Psionic)
A character with this feat may, the first time he gains the Expanded Knowledge feat (eitherpsionic or magic), use it to gain a spell of the highest level he can cast.

Notes: I was looking through the psionic feats one day, and realised that you can gain power points from one feat, and learn powers from another. I was very, very excited until I remember the requirement of a manifesting level. Well, now you can. A first level human Fighter could take Trick Up Your Sleeve for his Bonus Feat, Wild Talent for his human feat, and Expanded Knowledge. You now have a straight Fighter who can deal a total of 2d6 damage with psionics per day. Though highly useful, this requires his entire complement of first level feats, and will require more to keep it useful at higher levels. The magical equivalent, of course, would use Hidden Talent and Expanded Knowledge (Magical) to gain one use of magic Missile-or Magic Weapon, or Shield. The possibilites are endless.

Someone care to give feedback?
(I must point out that i don't really know what I'm doing. I've read the SRD (Lots), I have one not relevant Sourcebook about dragons, and I've been looking at homebrews. A lot.) :smallannoyed::smallamused:

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 10:56 AM
I think I'm failing utterly to see why this is a good idea. I mean, why not just multiclass? The only purpose I can see to this is shenanigans for qualifying for Prestige Classes without multiclassing, but there are very few cases where that would be desirable...

Mostly, these feats just look like traps for new players. Three feats is way too much to be able to cast one spell too low for your level.

Lix Lorn
2010-03-25, 12:04 PM
Well, if you multiclass then you stop increasing as a fighter or whatever, and there's an XP penalty, right?
Maybe if I made it slightly more standalone? Or do you think that it's absolutely pointless? DXD

Forever Curious
2010-03-25, 12:23 PM
Well, if you multiclass then you stop increasing as a fighter or whatever, and there's an XP penalty, right?
Maybe if I made it slightly more standalone? Or do you think that it's absolutely pointless? DXD

In my three years of D&D, I have never seen this rule actually used. Just saying...

Lix Lorn
2010-03-25, 12:26 PM
Well, in my 'two months', I have yet to reach beyond level one. XD
And only got past the first ENCOUNTER cause of the best DM ever. (Adores)

Forever Curious
2010-03-25, 12:28 PM
Well, in my 'two months', I have yet to reach beyond level one. XD
And only got past the first ENCOUNTER cause of the best DM ever. (Adores)

I recommend checking the OOC then...

But yeah, I agree with DragoonWraith's opinion.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 12:48 PM
Well, in my 'two months', I have yet to reach beyond level one. XD
And only got past the first ENCOUNTER cause of the best DM ever. (Adores)
Heh, then it seems my analysis was accurate. I can see why this seems like a good idea, but just from a player's perspective, this would not be how you want to spend your feats.

Feats are valuable, feats are rare. They're really rare. The average character gets 7, total, ever. The average Prestige Class requires two, and most often they're useless feats you wouldn't want to take otherwise (read: 90% of the feats from the PHB). The Fighter gets another 11 feats, from a restricted (and often weak) list, plus class features are better than feats, despite feats' rarity, so the Fighter is a really awful class.

The upshot of all this is that you really want to be able to do stuff with your feats, and even more you want to do something better than feats with your class levels. Having a situation where you need 3 feats just to do something is a poor choice. Especially one spell a level lower than you should have.

Expanded Knowledge is solid for Psionics because of the way the Psion's specialization system works. It can work for Magic; there often aren't many spells worth a feat, but there are a few. Getting Heal can be valuable for a lot of arcanists. There are a few others. Spontaneous casters might want it since they get so few, especially those who have very restricted lists (Warmage, Beguiler), though that normally would not be worth a feat. But at any rate, the feat already exists (Extra Spell, Complete Arcane IIRC), though the Official FAQ (which is often stupid and/or wrong) has said that the feat does not allow you to take spells that are not on your list (which is incredibly dumb, since it serves no purpose then).

Wild Talent is miserable crap. Seriously, it's a terrible feat, and only worthwhile in rare situations because being a (Psionic) character has value in and of itself. The same is not true of being a "(Magical)" character, because there's no such thing and no support for it.

As for Trick Up Your Sleeve... Well, it just really doesn't do much for you. Having that Caster Level doesn't allow you to do much. It lets you take your version of Expanded Knowledge, but you've burned two feats for doing something that's rarely worth a single feat.

So my suggestion would be to reduce the complexity here, and just have a feat that lets you gain a given spell (of level up to (ECL-1)/2) as a 1/day SLA. There are spells where this would probably be broken, but really I think it's probably safe.

druid91
2010-03-25, 01:43 PM
Well, If IIRC sorcerers can learn any spell they want, they just have to spend an unspecified amount of time and resources "gaining a special understanding," of it if it isn't part of the standard spell list. I Interpret this as The sorcerer hangs out with the cleric a lot and being able to pick Cure light wounds as a spell next time he gets one.

Anyway am I spelling standard right?

And as for your suggestion of SLA's there are feats in complete arcane that give you a set of SLA's with a common theme.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 01:54 PM
Well, If IIRC sorcerers can learn any spell they want, they just have to spend an unspecified amount of time and resources "gaining a special understanding," of it if it isn't part of the standard spell list. I Interpret this as The sorcerer hangs out with the cleric a lot and being able to pick Cure light wounds as a spell next time he gets one.
DM specific, not many will allow it, and plus you still need to use one of your limited Spells Known on it.


Anyway am I spelling standard right?
Uh... yes?


And as for your suggestion of SLA's there are feats in complete arcane that give you a set of SLA's with a common theme.
Yes, there are. There are still plenty of spells that don't get covered - especially lower level ones.

druid91
2010-03-25, 02:01 PM
Uh... yes?


Yes, there are. There are still plenty of spells that don't get covered - especially lower level ones.

Thanks It just looked strange to me.
Anyway I was saying just make up something in that vein as opposed to one feat one spell, That really isn't that much better than three feats for one spell.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 02:03 PM
I agree, there are not many spells I'd want to spend a feat on to get 1/day. But those little spell sets that you can get are all low-level, and they need to tied together thematically which may be awkward for someone to do for their own character. Gaining 1/day Time Stop is certainly worth your 18th level feat, though.

druid91
2010-03-25, 02:10 PM
I agree, there are not many spells I'd want to spend a feat on to get 1/day. But those little spell sets that you can get are all low-level, and they need to tied together thematically which may be awkward for someone to do for their own character. Gaining 1/day Time Stop is certainly worth your 18th level feat, though.

Yeah one a day time stop would be worth it. But for smaller things I like the format of three packaged together.


DM specific, not many will allow it, and plus you still need to use one of your limited Spells Known on it.

I don't get why not, this is the whole reason I believe that sorcerers can compete at all with wizards.
Yeah you still need to use one of your spells known but thats part of being a sorcerer.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 02:24 PM
I don't get why not, this is the whole reason I believe that sorcerers can compete at all with wizards.
The reasons why not are numerous - fluff, tradition, balance, etc. The Sorcerer certainly can compete with the Wizard, depending on the competition. Much better at Bluffing, for example. In a one-on-one fight, the Sorcerer probably can win thanks to Arcane Fusion being Sorc only, and the Wizard being unable to take advantage of their versatility because the fight does not allow them to re-prepare spells.

In an actual campaign, being able to change your entire character every day is incredibly powerful.

Lix Lorn
2010-03-25, 03:35 PM
(Nod)
The original idea was to use Energy Ray-cause psionics scales by just adding power points. But I do see your point. How about I make it give you one power/spell when you take it, gives you caster or manifester level equal to your highest class level if you didn't have one already, and grants you one spell per day for each level you have a spell for, in addition to maybe five power points? Then, make it available to take more than once, giving you another spell, another spell per day or set of power points, and make it available as a bonus feat? Then you can spend REAL feats being fighty, and Bonus feats being slightly magic/psionic-y?

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 04:03 PM
I assume you mean as Fighter bonus feats? May I ask why? There are much better ways to do what you're suggesting. Duskblade, for a simple, single-classed answer. Suel Arcanamach is another option, which is really solid with Abjurant Champion.

The Fighter is a really poor class. I don't understand why you're so dedicated to sticking with it - especially when you want spells.

druid91
2010-03-25, 04:24 PM
Perhaps he just wants to play a fighter with a couple magic tricks up his sleeve. I am doing something similar with a rogue.

Lix Lorn
2010-03-25, 04:29 PM
(Shrug)
I don't know. I just had the image.
Besides, I have very few noncore resources. SRD and the Races of the Dragon. That's it.

Temotei
2010-03-25, 04:42 PM
The others have summarized my thoughts. Duskblades cover the hybrid melee-caster just fine, as do homebrew classes all over the place. Bard even comes with a package for everything.

Also, look up Complete Arcane. There are feats in there that allow infinite castings of a single spell (predetermined by the feat). While they may be fairly weak spells, they're infinite and just strong enough to matter, even at middle to high levels.

Lix Lorn
2010-03-25, 05:03 PM
(Nods) Okay. Is there a way I can see this stuff without paying? DXD

DragoonWraith
2010-03-25, 06:25 PM
Sometimes. If Wizards has posted it on their website (which they do pretty often to try to advertise books), you can use it without buying the book. See the Guide to Free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.msg236496#msg236496). Also, this very homebrew forum has a literal ton of material that you might use.

For one thing, I strongly recommend replacing a Fighter with a Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), who uses Maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) (specifically from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines), which are mechanically somewhat similar to spells and allow your character a ton more versatility. Between the class and the maneuvers, you've got pretty much the entire system - the only other thing you need to know is that your Initiator Level in a given class is equal to your levels in that class, plus your levels in any maneuver-granting prestige class, plus half your other class levels. When you learn new maneuvers, you may learn maneuvers of a level equal to (IL+1)/2 (this is the same progression at which a Wizard or Cleric gets new spell levels, but note how multiclassing works so nicely. There's also the Martial Study feat, which lets you get a maneuver as part of a feat - and it's a Fighter bonus feat, which is nice.

And if you want a gishy Warblade (gish means fighter/mage, btw), ErrantX has an excellent Suel Arcanamach redo (it's a prestige class from Complete Arcane originally, but his is all-new) on this forum that I highly recommend.

Lix Lorn
2010-03-25, 06:39 PM
Wow. Useful!